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Fastball23
08-04-2013, 09:00 AM
Mark Gonzales ‏@MDGonzales
VIciedo getting early work at first base: pic.twitter.com/uIvGmDBXlm

I'd like to see him as our DH for next season. Hopefully Dunn will be gone.

russ99
08-04-2013, 09:29 AM
Supposedly one of the Sox long term plans is to replace Konerko with Viciedo, even decided in before this season.

IMO this is a huge step down both offensively and defensively. He can barely handle LF on defense and has regressed with the bat.

If rather see the Sox sell another team on paying for power potential and find better 1B options both above and below where Viciedo would be now on the org depth chart.

voodoochile
08-04-2013, 09:43 AM
1B has long been where the worst defender on the team plays. Viciedo has played a corner infield position before. If he can learn to scoop low throws, he should be fine. The question is will his bat ever live up to the hype and what is expected of a 1B. He's practiced there before but with both Dunn and Konerko there simply wasn't any way to squeeze him in there. PK is gone after this season one way or another Dunn and Tank can split time at 1B/DH next year unless the Sox manage to trade Dunn. Anyone who didn't expect this really hasn't been paying attention, IMO.

DSpivack
08-04-2013, 11:18 AM
A defensively poor, so-called power hitter 1B who slugs an OPS south of .750? Like an inferior, cheaper Dunn. If that's the solution then 2014 might be nearly as bad as 2013...

TomBradley72
08-04-2013, 11:37 AM
Just looking at the org depth chart- this makes sense- we don't have an 1B prospects of quality in the system, assuming PK retires and Dunn is our only other option- moving Viciedo to 1B makes sense.

We don't have many legit OF prospects either (assuming Garcia will be in CF or RF- if we move Rios)- but there's more depth than 1B.

This is not an endorsement of Tank at 1B- but I doubt we'll be able to move Dunn before his contract expires.

soxfanreggie
08-04-2013, 11:59 AM
Just looking at the org depth chart- this makes sense- we don't have an 1B prospects of quality in the system, assuming PK retires and Dunn is our only other option- moving Viciedo to 1B makes sense.

We don't have many legit OF prospects either (assuming Garcia will be in CF or RF- if we move Rios)- but there's more depth than 1B.

This is not an endorsement of Tank at 1B- but I doubt we'll be able to move Dunn before his contract expires.

Nobody is taking Dunn unless we pay a large portion of his contract. A playoff contender who loses a DH could be willing to acquire him if we shell out big $$$ for next year. However, if we do that, it would need to be for the prospects to get time - and I agree, we aren't blocking a lot of guys right now for 1B/DH roles. If we're going to deem 2014 as a rebuilding year, we might as well give Tank a chance to show he can make improvements in his hitting in sort of a "fresh start." I expect 2014 to be a lot of guys jockeying for positions in 2015: Phegley, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Morel, Gillaspie, Wells, Mitchell, Tekotte, etc. This will give us an idea who is part of our future and who we need to move. Unfortunately most of those guys probably aren't going to provide much benefit to the ML roster.

Based on our offense, unless we sign a FA bat or two or some guys come around, not even our starting pitching has a good chance to avoid another great 1st round draft pick next year.

harwar
08-04-2013, 12:22 PM
I expect 2014 to be a lot of guys jockeying for positions in 2015: Phegley, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Morel, Gillaspie, Wells, Mitchell, Tekotte, etc.

I was hoping for Mitchell to become the great CF that i've been waiting my whole life for .. one dog is the only one that even came close .. i guess it won't happen in my lifetime..

SI1020
08-04-2013, 12:30 PM
Phegley, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Morel, Gillaspie, Wells, Mitchell, Tekotte, etc. This will give us an idea who is part of our future and who we need to move. Unfortunately most of those guys probably aren't going to provide much benefit to the ML roster.

Based on our offense, unless we sign a FA bat or two or some guys come around, not even our starting pitching has a good chance to avoid another great 1st round draft pick next year. I don't expect anything special at all from that bunch. Yes without a couple of strong additions to the lineup next year looks bleak too.

SCCWS
08-04-2013, 01:24 PM
According to Robin, this is only an emergency replacement move and there are no plans to move him to 1st base. He is improving in left field.............. Robin feels.

Mod Edit: Don't copy large amounts of text from ESPN site.

CoopaLoop
08-04-2013, 01:28 PM
A defensively poor, so-called power hitter 1B who slugs an OPS south of .750? Like an inferior, cheaper Dunn. If that's the solution then 2014 might be nearly as bad as 2013...

I hope so.

amsteel
08-04-2013, 02:28 PM
Supposedly one of the Sox long term plans is to replace Konerko with Viciedo, even decided in before this season.

IMO this is a huge step down both offensively and defensively. He can barely handle LF on defense and has regressed with the bat.

If rather see the Sox sell another team on paying for power potential and find better 1B options both above and below where Viciedo would be now on the org depth chart.

The Sox have the 4th lowest fielding % at 1B and their overall defense at 1st has cost them 11 runs more than and average fielding team. So whatever Viciedo does, it can't really make things much worse.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2013-specialpos_1b-fielding.shtml

Offensively he's better than 2013 Konerko, and if he could get his OBP up he's be close to Dunn.

I also just noticed De Aza is second on the team in HRs. Holy hell is this team's success predicated on hitting HRs.

TaylorStSox
08-04-2013, 02:33 PM
Nobody is taking Dunn unless we pay a large portion of his contract. A playoff contender who loses a DH could be willing to acquire him if we shell out big $$$ for next year. However, if we do that, it would need to be for the prospects to get time - and I agree, we aren't blocking a lot of guys right now for 1B/DH roles. If we're going to deem 2014 as a rebuilding year, we might as well give Tank a chance to show he can make improvements in his hitting in sort of a "fresh start." I expect 2014 to be a lot of guys jockeying for positions in 2015: Phegley, Flowers, Jordan Danks, Morel, Gillaspie, Wells, Mitchell, Tekotte, etc. This will give us an idea who is part of our future and who we need to move. Unfortunately most of those guys probably aren't going to provide much benefit to the ML roster.

Based on our offense, unless we sign a FA bat or two or some guys come around, not even our starting pitching has a good chance to avoid another great 1st round draft pick next year.

I really think Dunn will have considerable value at the deadline next year. He's been a beast for months. Power is at a premium.

amsteel
08-04-2013, 03:21 PM
I really think Dunn will have considerable value at the deadline next year. He's been a beast for months. Power is at a premium.

Unless he reverts back to 2011 Adam Dunn.

TaylorStSox
08-04-2013, 03:22 PM
Unless he reverts back to 2011 Adam Dunn.

Well, duh.

DSpivack
08-04-2013, 03:30 PM
I hope so.

You hope so... :scratch:

soltrain21
08-04-2013, 03:38 PM
You hope so... :scratch:

Well, I see his point. If we are going to miss the playoffs or something next year, might as well be awful and get another super high draft pick.

soxfanreggie
08-04-2013, 03:54 PM
I don't expect anything special at all from that bunch. Yes without a couple of strong additions to the lineup next year looks bleak too.

I see some guys who can be around for awhile as back-up OFs or back-up catchers, but we don't have much starting talent there. Hopefully we can find a couple FAs who may be a bit past their prime but can help be leaders in the clubhouse. If we can get a few good FAs and 2014 is a throwaway year for them to have them aboard for 2015, I'm ok with that. That will get a few guys established in the clubhouse to bring a few more guys aboard for 2015 with the $$$ from Dunn and Rios (unless we can dump Rios). If we could get anything from Alexei, Beckham, and Tank, improving this team could be a heck of a lot easier to look more for an OF or two, a 3B, a C, and some relievers.

CoopaLoop
08-04-2013, 09:29 PM
You hope so... :scratch:

Sox are for sure two years away from being relevant. I wouldn't be upset at all if the Sox lost 90+ again next year.

DSpivack
08-04-2013, 09:34 PM
Sox are for sure two years away from being relevant. I wouldn't be upset at all if the Sox lost 90+ again next year.

Baseball isn't basketball, high draft picks guarantee nothing. I want the Sox to actually win games. :shrug:

asindc
08-04-2013, 09:37 PM
Baseball isn't basketball, high draft picks guarantee nothing. I want the Sox to actually win games. :shrug:

Exactly. High draft picks have less meaning in baseball than any other sport by a comfortable margin.

balke
08-04-2013, 09:51 PM
Baseball isn't basketball, high draft picks guarantee nothing. I want the Sox to actually win games. :shrug:


If you want the largest impact players, you are better off in the top 20 picks of the MLB draft.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130605/draft-pick-by-pick-breakdown/

balke
08-04-2013, 09:52 PM
Exactly. High draft picks have less meaning in baseball than any other sport by a comfortable margin.

I don't see this as true. #1-5 overall might not be as important. But being high in the first round (top 20) is going to net you the best MLB players more often than not.

asindc
08-04-2013, 10:45 PM
I don't see this as true. #1-5 overall might not be as important. But being high in the first round (top 20) is going to net you the best MLB players more often than not.

A team can be in the top 20 in the draft after having a winning season the year before.

JB98
08-04-2013, 11:41 PM
Baseball isn't basketball, high draft picks guarantee nothing. I want the Sox to actually win games. :shrug:

Amen. This should be obvious, but apparently it is not.

SI1020
08-05-2013, 07:42 AM
Baseball isn't basketball, high draft picks guarantee nothing. I want the Sox to actually win games. :shrug: Add me to the chorus. Predicting success in baseball is much harder than in several other sports.

CoopaLoop
08-05-2013, 07:31 PM
No Lebron James is walking through the door sure, but a team that has such awful depth in the minors needs as many high picks as they can get. I for sure would love two straight years of picking in the top 10.

The more young talent the better. Prospects don't always have to succeed. They are assets before they are major leaguers.

DSpivack
08-05-2013, 08:13 PM
No Lebron James is walking through the door sure, but a team that has such awful depth in the minors needs as many high picks as they can get. I for sure would love two straight years of picking in the top 10.

The more young talent the better. Prospects don't always have to succeed. They are assets before they are major leaguers.

There is more than one way to build a team, losing and picking high fails more often than it succeeds, and some of the best teams at drafting and player development are not teams who have the luxury of picking in the top 5 (Atlanta and St. Louis come to mind). Losing accomplishes nothing and only begets more losing. Like I said, I actually want the Sox to win ball games...

graham5
08-06-2013, 11:41 AM
The way next year is shaping up with most players still under contract, right now its difficult to see how we have much choice over whether we have a winning team in '14 or not. It seems pointless bringing in 1/2 FA's in the off-season as this team needs more than that to turn it around.

I say lets experiment a little with the youngsters and accept the fact its going to be another poor season next year. I appreciate that getting more top draft picks doesn't guarantee future success, but neither is it going to do us any harm as an organisation.

I would also accept offers for Sale in the off-season (*ducking for cover*).

DeadMoney
08-06-2013, 12:09 PM
1B has long been where the worst defender on the team plays. Viciedo has played a corner infield position before. If he can learn to scoop low throws, he should be fine. The question is will his bat ever live up to the hype and what is expected of a 1B. He's practiced there before but with both Dunn and Konerko there simply wasn't any way to squeeze him in there. PK is gone after this season one way or another Dunn and Tank can split time at 1B/DH next year unless the Sox manage to trade Dunn. Anyone who didn't expect this really hasn't been paying attention, IMO.

What worries me is his footwork at 1B. It's not a huge deal, but it's definitely something that would take some time for him to get used to. Based on his learning curve in LF, I'm just not sure this is something that could happen quickly.

hawkjt
08-06-2013, 12:18 PM
No surprise to me on Tank. He has decent hands,and with work can play first,which is a natural position for him.

Remember Moneyball and the non 1st baseman that Billy Beane wanted at 1st? They trained him and he did ok.

Tank is going to learn and bounce back from this year at the plate.
Too early to give up on him.

Tank,Gordo, Alexei,Conner,Josh,Garcia,Rios,DeAza and Dunn could be competitive if the pitching stays good and they hit the ball like they can.

TomBradley72
08-06-2013, 01:22 PM
No surprise to me on Tank. He has decent hands,and with work can play first,which is a natural position for him.

Remember Moneyball and the non 1st baseman that Billy Beane wanted at 1st? They trained him and he did ok.

Tank is going to learn and bounce back from this year at the plate.
Too early to give up on him.

Tank,Gordo, Alexei,Conner,Josh,Garcia,Rios,DeAza and Dunn could be competitive if the pitching stays good and they hit the ball like they can.

I agree with your assessment of Tank- he's only 24 yo- he can bounce back- not sold on Gillaspie or Phegley at this point.

And I'm done with De Aza- way too many brain dead players on this roster.

russ99
08-07-2013, 10:58 AM
Tank is going to learn and bounce back from this year at the plate.
Too early to give up on him.


People have been saying that for 2+ seasons. He's now at 1095 ABs, he is what he is. A power/K-only hitter, who's becoming too expensive for what he's producing.

And considering how other Cubans have fudged on their ages, even his age (24) could be in question.

JB98
08-07-2013, 12:18 PM
People have been saying that for 2+ seasons. He's now at 1095 ABs, he is what he is. A power/K-only hitter, who's becoming too expensive for what he's producing.

And considering how other Cubans have fudged on their ages, even his age (24) could be in question.

My philosophy has always been the third full season is usually the year you make a judgment about a guy. For Tank, that would be next year.

And, frankly, the White Sox are in a position where it isn't harming them much if they show a little patience with him.

TaylorStSox
08-07-2013, 12:58 PM
Viciedo's SO's are down.

russ99
08-07-2013, 01:10 PM
Viciedo's SO's are down.

As are his power numbers.

I'd rather see the Sox acquire a good hitter for 1B next year, rather than hope Viciedo turns things around with no track record to the contrary.

I wouldn't mind giving him one more year in LF/lower in the order before he hits arb next offseason.

IMO we haven't had such a maddening player since Brian Anderson when it comes to perceived talent vs. actual results.

FielderJones
08-07-2013, 02:17 PM
IMO we haven't had such a maddening player since Brian Anderson when it comes to perceived talent vs. actual results.

Anderson was far more maddening that Viciedo will ever be.

doublem23
08-07-2013, 02:21 PM
I'd rather see the Sox acquire a good hitter for 1B next year, rather than hope Viciedo turns things around with no track record to the contrary.

I guess we're just ignoring minor league production if it contradicts our preconceived notions now?

TheVulture
08-07-2013, 03:11 PM
As are his power numbers.

I'd rather see the Sox acquire a good hitter for 1B next year, rather than hope Viciedo turns things around with no track record to the contrary.

I wouldn't mind giving him one more year in LF/lower in the order before he hits arb next offseason.


Yes, I'd rather keep him in left and let him battle for playing time with DeAza and Garcia. We can't expect the White Sox to acquire seven new everyday players in one off-season, but a mediocre hitting firstbaseman (compared to other first baseman) should be relatively easy to acquire and helpful to improving the lineup.

TheVulture
08-07-2013, 03:12 PM
I guess we're just ignoring minor league production if it contradicts our preconceived notions now?

How's minor league production relevant? Are the Sox moving to the International League next year or what?

Anyway, Russ was still advocating giving Viciedo another chance in left. It makes sense, if Viciedo continues to flop we should have OFers to take his place, not necessarily the case at firstbase unless you really like players like Keppinger. Seems like a bad idea for Viciedo to learn how to be a major league first basemen when he still doesn't seem to have figured out how to be a major league hitter.

doublem23
08-07-2013, 04:38 PM
How's minor league production relevant? Are the Sox moving to the International League next year or what?


Is that a joke? It's how you establish a young players' track record.

Domeshot17
08-07-2013, 04:50 PM
Is that a joke? It's how you establish a young players' track record.

The problem with your argument is that Dayan is much in-line with his minor league production. Career minor league numbers of like a .790 OPS. He had one "breakout year" I guess, but he never hit .300, he had a .900 OPS, 20 homer max. He was a good hitter, nothing special. His major league translation actually hasn't been as far off as people think.

The real problem is, until we got Garcia, the Sox have not had a true top flight young hitter in the minors in YEARS. So people expect Tank to come up and be a game changer, middle of the order hitter, and that was not his major league MO. He is a quality 6 or 7 hitter, .800 OPS, 20 or so homers, 80 or so RBI if he maxes. I know Hawk RAVED about his light tower power, but that is BP, and in the pros, most guys have that in BP.

I would suspect Tank is what he is at this point... .250 avg .730 OPS-20 homer-75 RBI

doublem23
08-07-2013, 04:54 PM
The problem with your argument is that Dayan is much in-line with his minor league production. Career minor league numbers of like a .790 OPS. He had one "breakout year" I guess, but he never hit .300, he had a .900 OPS, 20 homer max. He was a good hitter, nothing special. His major league translation actually hasn't been as far off as people think.


It's a little disingenuous to dismiss a guy as a career .790 OPS minor league hitter without mentioning the steady rise in his OPS; .708, .801, and .856

Domeshot17
08-07-2013, 04:57 PM
It's a little disingenuous to dismiss a guy as a career .790 OPS minor league hitter without mentioning the steady rise in his OPS; .708, .801, and .856

I did mention his breakout year... and an .856 OPS in AAA is not super impressive. Especially when the cause of the jump was not an increase in power production, but walking 45 times and not 11.

doublem23
08-07-2013, 05:02 PM
I did mention his breakout year... and an .856 OPS in AAA is not super impressive. Especially when the cause of the jump was not an increase in power production, but walking 45 times and not 11.

... which was the knock against Viciedo's game, his lack of pitch awareness and eye at the plate.

Also, .856 was a Top 25 OPS in the International League in 2011 while being the 4th youngest player in the league. I would say that is decent production given such an aggressive placement.

SCCWS
08-07-2013, 05:45 PM
I find it interesting that Beckham, Alexei and Viciedo have all seen their home runs per AB drop pretty significantly yet all three seem to have increased their doubles per AB. Maybe Manto is getting them to change their batting approach.

BainesHOF
08-07-2013, 05:50 PM
I'm tired of watching Viciedo hack like a fool. He's part of the problem. Bye bye.