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View Full Version : Why isn't Robin being blamed more for this debacle?


gosox41
08-03-2013, 07:30 AM
I've seen some negative comments on Robin, but overall it is pretty tame here with regards to him and his coaching staff. Why? While thte players are the one's playing the game, surely management has a role. If they don't then why fire a manager to begin with?

In years past this place would have been afire if this team was this bad under Manuel or Guillen. If there was a WSI when Bevington was around, this website may have crashed from so many irate and angry users.

So while the Sox have had their share of bad luck this year, there are enough issues with Robin and his coaching staff that seriously to need to be examined. Again, while the blame is more placed on the players, I still believe management can be making better decisions in some regards:
1. The Hitting. A .247 team BA. A .303 OBP. No power. What happened here? Same team as last year minus AJ and an older PK. What if Walker were hitting coach. Would this be acceptable. How about shaking up the line up or benching struggling players for more then a day or 2?

And the hitting in the clutch is below average too. Hasn't this team figured out that the pressure is on the pitchers and not the hitters when men are on base and htere are less then 2 outs. The Cardinals are hitting .335 through 107 games with men in scoring position. That is an anomaly. But so is the Sox hitting.

2. Discipline. It took Robin until July 26 to bench Rios for not hustling. And since then no one has been pulled from a game for that reason. And while we are at it, let's wait an inning and a half before doing it. I didn't realize that all Sox players have been hustling all year. Fooled me. ANd next time, do it like Bobby Cox did to Andruw Jones and pull him right away. A little public humiliation is a good thing.

3. Defense-Do they still do pregame infield practice? Lots of physicall errors. How did they fall so far? Just a bad season? Lack of discipline.

4. Base running. See 3 above. Consistent mental mistakes need to be addressed, even if it's for a benhing. Baserunning this year is terrible. It's something that should have been learned years ago in little league, but probably wasn't as stars tend to gloss over the fundamentals. Clearly the Sox minor league system is incapable of producing a hitter let alone teaching him how to run the bases smartly or not get picked off. So Robin needs to step it up a bit. Bench De Aza when he misuns. When Rios or Danks get stupidly picked off do something. Or, if you're Rick Hahn and think issues are being addressed, then do something else because the current way ain't working.

5. Pitching has been solid all year. My only point of contention here is (and I will put in all caps to fire people up, especially specific posters who think they know it all): DON'T LET CHRIS SALE PITCH 120+ PITCHES ANYMORE THIS YEAR. THE TEAM IS PLAYING FOR A #1 PICK IN THE DRAFT NOT A PLAYOFF SPOT. MOST TEAMS DON'T PITCH THEIR STARTERS THAT MUCH TO BEGIN WITH. CHRIS AND HIS UNIQUE DELIVERY MAKE HIM MORE SUSCPECTIBLE TO INJURY (IF SALE BLOWS OUT HIS ELBOW HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL LOOK BACK AT ROBIN LEAVING HIM IN GAMES IN A LOST SEASON.)

If the team wants to look at young arms, a good time to do it would be when you're not burning out your star pitcher over a meaningless game in a meaningless season. Keep doing this and you know what happens (assuming no injury?) This star pitcher becomes a free agent. You sign this star pitcher to a whopping contract. This star pitcher suddenly becomes human after the wear and tear (ie see 2013 Verlander, Zito for the last 8 years to name a couple.)


Bob

russ99
08-03-2013, 08:44 AM
1. The Hitting. A .247 team BA. A .303 OBP. No power. What happened here? Same team as last year minus AJ and an older PK. What if Walker were hitting coach. Would this be acceptable. How about shaking up the line up or benching struggling players for more then a day or 2?

And the hitting in the clutch is below average too. Hasn't this team figured out that the pressure is on the pitchers and not the hitters when men are on base and htere are less then 2 outs. The Cardinals are hitting .335 through 107 games with men in scoring position. That is an anomaly. But so is the Sox hitting.


This would bother me less if it was some anomaly, as if a bunch of good hitters suddenly can't execute, but the real problem is that the cause of this is actually team strategy.

I was one of the people calling for Walker to go, but even he wouldn't push for players to swing at first pitches, swing aggressively at all counts, don't take pitches, walks are bad, etc. This just feeds a players natural instinct to go for the fences and pad stats over going into an at-bat with a plan suited to how the team can score runs in the current situation.

I get it that the staff wanted a departure from Ozzie's brand of offensive baseball, but this is just plain bad baseball. With so many 0-2 and 1-2 counts, we're giving every pitcher we face a distinct advantage.

Before we get the next wave of hitters on the club, Manto either needs to go or drastically change the teams philosophy on how to approach an at-bat.

Bobby Thigpen
08-03-2013, 09:34 AM
I don't blame Robin for this because you can't make chicken salad out of chicken crap. This roster is terrible. As the trade deadline showed, there's only about two position players that any other team in the league had any interest in.

Had the Sox done this under Manuel or Ozzie, I'd be mad as heck. But just because those teams were filled with young, promising talent. This team is filled with old, worn out stars or young players that aren't any good.

soxfanreggie
08-03-2013, 10:07 AM
Bob,

It's hard for me to blame Robin for all the team's woes considering what he has had to work with. Dunn, Rios, and Konerko were all signed to big contracts before he came. Konerko was good at the start of his but he is ready to retire now. Dunn has been a monumental flop and Rios has been very inconsistent. When your top paid guys (3 and 4-hole type hitters) aren't performing, especially more than one, it's tough to win. The "additions" to the line-up were Keppinger and Flowers, and out of that we lost AJ. Let's call a spade a spade: this offense is horrible.

I do hold him responsible for the defense. We've taken great steps back in that arena.

If you look at how our starting pitching has been, we quickly forget that were often without 40%-60% of our expected starting pitching for the year (Danks, Floyd, Peavy). Coop has gotten so much of guys like Quintana and Santiago.

A. Cavatica
08-03-2013, 10:13 AM
I think this was the plan all along. Hire Robin to be a cheerful face and an inept manager, while the team plummets in the standings, sells off the dead wood, and accumulates draft picks.

Domeshot17
08-03-2013, 10:16 AM
I don't think Robin is a very good manager, but Bobby Cox could not win with this group. Its a freaking pile of ****. Konerko's career is over. Dunn has not worked out, Alexei is old and on the downside, De Aza was a cast off from Miami, Gillaspie was a cast off from SF, Keppinger hasn't worked out, The league adjusted to Tank and he failed to adjust back, Rios is Rios, Phegley and Flowers are neither very good (how out is the book on Josh, just throw him a Curveball and watch him wiff like he is playing softball).

In terms of the defense, this is where Robin's lack of leadership is exposed. That clubhouse is toxic right now and players have given up. That shows more than anything in the field as they play flat. There is not 1 high energy guy on this team, not 1 leader. That is a problem.

This is going to take Hahn a couple of years to fix the mess Kenny created. Robin is just the placeholder.

amsteel
08-03-2013, 10:26 AM
If he can't be blamed for this year, he can't get any credit for last year, right?

24thStFan
08-03-2013, 10:36 AM
Regarding defense and base running, do they even practice this during the season? Given our deficiencies in these area, I would hope the manager would have the whole team out early every day taking infield practice, running the bases, practicing run downs and how to avoid pick-offs, etc.

The Sox may be doing this, but I haven't heard or read anything about it. Anyone here know if this is occurring?

soxtalker
08-03-2013, 10:54 AM
Well, he does seem to be the object of a lot of criticism lately -- both from the media and fans. I wouldn't expect the GM to criticize him.

Robin may be doing pretty much what he was brought in to do -- manage the team during what was expected to be a few very difficult years.

SCCWS
08-03-2013, 10:57 AM
If this roster was competitive last season, I think Robin deserves some blame for the total collapse. Obviously the fundamentals have really declined which may mean that last year's good defense reflects on the work of the previous coaching staff.

WLL1855
08-03-2013, 11:03 AM
If it makes you feel better, go ahead and put Ventura's head on a stick. You are fooling yourself if you think it makes this team in any way better.

KingXerxes
08-03-2013, 11:11 AM
I think this was the plan all along. Hire Robin to be a cheerful face and an inept manager, while the team plummets in the standings, sells off the dead wood, and accumulates draft picks.

I doubt the powers that be are that smart.

Fastball23
08-03-2013, 12:28 PM
I hope that we hire Dave Martinez. RV needs to be gone

kittle42
08-03-2013, 12:52 PM
How can you law blame at the feet of a man who had zero qualifications for the position for which he was hired? Blame belongs to the persons who hired him.

Fastball23
08-03-2013, 01:04 PM
How can you law blame at the feet of a man who had zero qualifications for the position for which he was hired? Blame belongs to the persons who hired him.

You're 100% right.

dickallen15
08-03-2013, 01:20 PM
How can you law blame at the feet of a man who had zero qualifications for the position for which he was hired? Blame belongs to the persons who hired him.

I have never understood this experience argument. Robin has plenty of experience and people with no experience seem to think they know everything he does wrong. In other words, if experience is so huge, how can you be in a position to know what he does wrong if you lack the experience you believe is required. We don't get the whole scoop anyway. Hahn mentioned Robin and his staff do confront players. They do work on fundamentals, fielding, baserunning often. They even take batting practice everyday. It doesn't mean they are going to hit. Robin keeps a lot in house, and we see his calm demeanor which is misread as a guy who doesn't want the job and is just collecting a check. I would think if anyone was a manager for any kind of company they would hope to have more than Robin has to work with if they are totally going to be judged on results. He will be fine. The Sox record has nothing to do with Ventura's managing.

DSpivack
08-03-2013, 01:22 PM
If he can't be blamed for this year, he can't get any credit for last year, right?

If this roster was competitive last season, I think Robin deserves some blame for the total collapse. Obviously the fundamentals have really declined which may mean that last year's good defense reflects on the work of the previous coaching staff.

I don't see it as a blame/not-blame issue for Ventura in 2012 and 2013. In viewing the Sox roster, the past number of years have seen a veteran-laden team (especially at the plate, not as much with the pitching staff). Well, their aging players declined rather quickly, and now the Sox are paying the price of that. I don't know how much value Ventura adds or subtracts to the team. I don't think he's a very good manager, but I don't think he's a completely toxic one like Bevington was (or Valentine was last season in Boston).

Last year, the Sox offense (though slightly below average) was sustained by a big year from AJ, much better years from Rios and De Aza as compared to 2013, a brief hot spurt by Youkilis before he got injured, and a very solid season from Konerko. Flowers replacing AJ has been a disaster, Konerko looks done when he has been healthy, Rios and De Aza have both regressed, Gillespie replacing Youkilis has been another disaster, and Viciedo has also regressed from last season. Beckham at 2B is probably the only offensive improvement the Sox have as compared to 2012.

Thus, looking at the roster the Sox have replaced some solid but aging veterans with younger players who just can't cut it, while other veterans have regressed, and other players have declined where improvement was expected (Ramirez, Viciedo).

Given the dearth of talent for years in the Sox organization, the outcome isn't exactly a shock, even if it surprising. But I don't see how Ventura is at fault for long-standing systemic issues with the organization, issues which have this season have come home to roost in a big way.

gobears1987
08-03-2013, 01:26 PM
The team sucks with or without Robin, but he certainly hasn't helped in any way.

Mohoney
08-03-2013, 01:42 PM
If he can't be blamed for this year, he can't get any credit for last year, right?

I think that last year's success was due more to Ozzie being gone than anything in particular that Robin did. The team got such a boost from Ozzie's departure that they played over their heads in the first half. That, combined with the Tigers sleepwalking through the first half last year, kept a team that probably shouldn't have been competing for a division title in the race until they ran out of gas in September.

pudge
08-03-2013, 01:54 PM
For one thing, the board is dead due to the Sox sucking, so there is no energy around here for an uproar. I am very concerned, and the few times I've posted I usually include a concerned remark about Ventura. My big concern is he doesn't really want to do this. And the fact his team died on him last year, and is one of the worst Sox teams ever this year, has to go back somewhat to the manager. I don't like to blame managers for everything, heck I don't blame them for most things, but when it looks like a team doesn't care, THAT's when I blame them. That to me goes right back to the manager. All in all, I'm not feeling all that warm and fuzzy about a guy who had his team blow a big lead late in his first season, and wet the bed in his second.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2013, 01:55 PM
The fact that the team is playing like crap isn't not necessarily Robin's fault but the fact that the team appears to have completely given up and has at times called him out in the press suggests that he has lost the clubhouse and that is his fault.

tstrike2000
08-03-2013, 02:51 PM
Because we need to unload almost half the team.

dickallen15
08-03-2013, 03:59 PM
The fact that the team is playing like crap isn't not necessarily Robin's fault but the fact that the team appears to have completely given up and has at times called him out in the press suggests that he has lost the clubhouse and that is his fault.

The only one who called him out was Rios after Robin sat him for loafing. Rios thought being taken out of the game was embarrassing and unneccessary. He hasn't lost the clubhouse at all.

shingo10
08-03-2013, 04:34 PM
Can a manager really be judged after 2 seasons? I'm guessing not. I think La Russa had a really bad year in either his first or second year. Turned out to do pretty well after that. (Not well enough for Hawk though...yes)

Anyway, it seems that anyone with ties to the Sox organization is happy with how Robin and the coaching staff have been preparing the players. Unfortunately it hasn't translated into anything but as many have said let's see how they do with a team that isn't full of injured, aging veterans and overall bad players.

kittle42
08-03-2013, 04:54 PM
I have never understood this experience argument. Robin has plenty of experience and people with no experience seem to think they know everything he does wrong. In other words, if experience is so huge, how can you be in a position to know what he does wrong if you lack the experience you believe is required. We don't get the whole scoop anyway. Hahn mentioned Robin and his staff do confront players. They do work on fundamentals, fielding, baserunning often. They even take batting practice everyday. It doesn't mean they are going to hit. Robin keeps a lot in house, and we see his calm demeanor which is misread as a guy who doesn't want the job and is just collecting a check. I would think if anyone was a manager for any kind of company they would hope to have more than Robin has to work with if they are totally going to be judged on results. He will be fine. The Sox record has nothing to do with Ventura's managing.

I'll use this argument the next time I am looking for a job for which I have next to no qualifications. Wouldn't it apply anywhere in life with this logic, or is there something special about sports or baseball in particular that allows for a person with nothing on their resume to get a specialized position? In my opinion, the "experience argument" is just basic business sense.

Almost every manager and coach has to work his way up through the minors like regular players. I have serious doubts Ventura was hired because he came off an interview sounding like the next coming of Tony LaRussa.

kittle42
08-03-2013, 04:57 PM
Can a manager really be judged after 2 seasons?

No, they need at least 1,000 ABs.

Say, where is the 1,000 AB crowd in support of Tyler Flowers?

dickallen15
08-03-2013, 06:41 PM
I'll use this argument the next time I am looking for a job for which I have next to no qualifications. Wouldn't it apply anywhere in life with this logic, or is there something special about sports or baseball in particular that allows for a person with nothing on their resume to get a specialized position? In my opinion, the "experience argument" is just basic business sense.

Almost every manager and coach has to work his way up through the minors like regular players. I have serious doubts Ventura was hired because he came off an interview sounding like the next coming of Tony LaRussa.

It's freaking baseball not rocket science, he played the game at the highest level for 15 years. He was always considered a leader. He has more "experience" than anyone on this board, so using your logic, none of us would ever be in a position to critique.

cv sox fan
08-03-2013, 09:13 PM
He was hired because he was a fan favorite and worked cheeped.I do not think anyone thought it would get this bad this fast.He has lost control all he dose is sit there and blow bubbles.Still think we would have one division last year if we had experienced manager. please get rid of him!

gosox41
08-03-2013, 10:07 PM
He was hired because he was a fan favorite and worked cheeped.I do not think anyone thought it would get this bad this fast.He has lost control all he dose is sit there and blow bubbles.Still think we would have one division last year if we had experienced manager. please get rid of him!

FWIW, I think Robin 'retires' after next year. He leaves after this year and he is known as a quitter. He'll save face next year when they are not nearly as bad.


Bob

jdm2662
08-03-2013, 10:13 PM
Did I expect them to be this bad? The answer is no. Am I surprised? Meh, whatever. **** happens. Nothing surprises me. I also didn't expect them to be in first place much of the season last year, either. They were bound to be ****ty eventually. It's the life of professional sports. It's all entertainment to me, and my life goes on as is whether they win or lose.

As for the future, well, there is no such thing as next year in sports. I was told by many on this very same board after the Sox lost 90 games in 2007, we were headed to many more bad losing seasons. The Sox won the division the next season. I'm not saying they will win the division next year. Hell, they may lose 90+ games again. Whatever. I'm not going to doom and gloom and act like the world is coming to an end. I expect a completely different roster next year. Whether it's good enough remains to be seen. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it. I have other things to worry about.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2013, 10:40 PM
The only one who called him out was Rios after Robin sat him for loafing. Rios thought being taken out of the game was embarrassing and unneccessary. He hasn't lost the clubhouse at all.

Sale called him out after the intentional walk to Cabrera, he later apologized to the media but he still called Ventura out.

TDog
08-03-2013, 11:02 PM
...

Almost every manager and coach has to work his way up through the minors like regular players. I have serious doubts Ventura was hired because he came off an interview sounding like the next coming of Tony LaRussa.

Eddie Stanky didn't manage in the minors. Leo Durocher didn't, and he is in the Hall of Fame as a manager. The last Indians World Series championship was won by a manager who was hired with no minor league managerial experience. The last manager to manage the White Sox to a World Series championship had no minor league managing experience. Tony LaRussa, though, was in his second season as a minor league manager when he was hired by the White Sox, but Harry Caray used to say he was only hired to save money because Bill Veeck was too cheap to hire a real manager.

SI1020
08-03-2013, 11:34 PM
Mike Matheny is another terrible hire.

gosox41
08-04-2013, 07:31 AM
Eddie Stanky didn't manage in the minors. Leo Durocher didn't, and he is in the Hall of Fame as a manager. The last Indians World Series championship was won by a manager who was hired with no minor league managerial experience. The last manager to manage the White Sox to a World Series championship had no minor league managing experience. Tony LaRussa, though, was in his second season as a minor league manager when he was hired by the White Sox, but Harry Caray used to say he was only hired to save money because Bill Veeck was too cheap to hire a real manager.


The game has changed a lot since. And not just the game, but the economics. I think if a guy truly wants to be a manager (even if he was a great player aka Ryne Sandberg) he needs to work his way up. That shows a love of the game and the need to learn all facets. And it may also be a personal financial incentive for some who didn't make a butt load of money (or just blew it all) to do what it takes to win.

Or look at from what I think is Robin's perspectve. Here he is, retired from baseball for 5 years, enjoying the good life with my his loving wife of a long time and two teen age daughters. Living n beautiful California, driving the kids two school, hanging with the famiy, living stress free since he has banked $55MM during his playing days and my guess is was probably smart enough not to blow through it--ie his daughters are probably financially secure if he choose them to be.

Then one day a GM calls him and asks to meet with him. At the meeting he is offered a ML Manager job. Now keep in mind Robin wasn't out there looking for one. So what goes through Robins' head. Something like this:


"The game I love and miss has offered me one of only 30 available jobs. They will even pay me a mid-high six figure salary. Along with this comes the perk that I am being handed the job and don't have to work my way up to it like just about all other managers in the last 10 years have. Of course I'll take it. It gets me back in the game I love. I get to make some extra money. I don't have to pay me dues. My boss is going to lay off of me because they know my previous experience and they came to me with the offer, not vice versa. Of course I'll give it a shot. I'm only in my upper 40's. Don't want to get too bored."

I would do the same thing. Someone wants to pay me a lot of money to do something I love, even if I have never done it before and I'll jump at it in heart beat. And it's all because I scored high on some alleged leadership test in 1998.

KW messed this up big time. Why a team would invest $100MM+ in payroll and not bring in an experienced proven winner is beyond me.


Bob

captain54
08-04-2013, 10:53 AM
KW messed this up big time. Why a team would invest $100MM+ in payroll and not bring in an experienced proven winner is beyond me.


Bob

When Ventura was hired, he was the anti - Ozzie.. The sentimentality of Ozzie without the BS.. Also, you are assuming it was 100% KW's call to hire Ventura..debateable

SCCWS
08-04-2013, 11:10 AM
When Ventura was hired, he was the anti - Ozzie.. The sentimentality of Ozzie without the BS.. Also, you are assuming it was 100% KW's call to hire Ventura..debateable

But I would assume he was not Hahn's hire. A GM trying to rebuild a team needs his own manager and coaching staff. JR assumed that the best replacement for his longtime SS turned manager was his longtime 3rd baseman. Hopefully Hahn gets to make the decision going forward. Although Thome may be already auditioning for the spot.

kittle42
08-04-2013, 01:43 PM
It's freaking baseball not rocket science, he played the game at the highest level for 15 years. He was always considered a leader. He has more "experience" than anyone on this board, so using your logic, none of us would ever be in a position to critique.

I disagree with you completely. Experience - real experience - is what is required for almost every professional job. Should I be the Senior VP in change of something at McDonald's corp because I was a manager at a local McDonald's?

kittle42
08-04-2013, 01:45 PM
Eddie Stanky didn't manage in the minors. Leo Durocher didn't, and he is in the Hall of Fame as a manager. The last Indians World Series championship was won by a manager who was hired with no minor league managerial experience. The last manager to manage the White Sox to a World Series championship had no minor league managing experience. Tony LaRussa, though, was in his second season as a minor league manager when he was hired by the White Sox, but Harry Caray used to say he was only hired to save money because Bill Veeck was too cheap to hire a real manager.

The small number of examples doesn't change things.

Hitmen77
08-04-2013, 02:17 PM
I don't blame Robin for this because you can't make chicken salad out of chicken crap. This roster is terrible. As the trade deadline showed, there's only about two position players that any other team in the league had any interest in.

Had the Sox done this under Manuel or Ozzie, I'd be mad as heck. But just because those teams were filled with young, promising talent. This team is filled with old, worn out stars or young players that aren't any good.

How can you law blame at the feet of a man who had zero qualifications for the position for which he was hired? Blame belongs to the persons who hired him.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. Unlike the teams that Manual and Ozzie managed, this team just flat out sucks.

But, mostly, I really can't get worked up about Robin's performance because this is pretty much what I expected when the Sox hired a guy with zero professional managing or coaching experience.

kittle42
08-04-2013, 02:21 PM
But, mostly, I really can't get worked up about Robin's performance because this is pretty much what I expected when the Sox hired a guy with zero professional managing or coaching experience.

But he played the game at the highest level for 15 years! All he did on that field was think about strategy. I hear was basically a player/manager for Jeff Torborg.

"Why do you feel you are qualified to be the CEO of this corporation?"

"I have shopped at your best stores for years, and I was even employed as an assistant manager once."

"You're hired!"

Hitmen77
08-04-2013, 02:24 PM
The small number of examples doesn't change things.

Also, comparing Robin's situation to people who managed 60 or 75 years ago really isn't a convincing argument to me that the Sox were right to hire a person with zero experience to manage this major league ball club.

Plus, the "last manager to manage the White Sox to a championship" was a major league coach before he was hired by the White Sox.

A. Cavatica
08-04-2013, 04:57 PM
This is great preparation for Robin if the Sox ever want him to manage Kannapolis.

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:04 PM
Mike Matheny is another terrible hire.
He had coaching experience in the minors though. He also works for a great organization. It would be awfully hard to screw up that situation.

mahagga73
08-04-2013, 05:06 PM
Also, comparing Robin's situation to people who managed 60 or 75 years ago really isn't a convincing argument to me that the Sox were right to hire a person with zero experience to manage this major league ball club.

Plus, the "last manager to manage the White Sox to a championship" was a major league coach before he was hired by the White Sox.
Right, that was a completely different era and the job is a lot more complicated now the way baseball has become specialized, free agency, multi-million dollar egos and sensitivities. It simply is not a good comparison at all. What the Sox did was completely out of the box and a huge gamble. I'm not sure if it has ever happened recently, a manager with zero coaching experience professionally.

TDog
08-04-2013, 05:33 PM
Also, comparing Robin's situation to people who managed 60 or 75 years ago really isn't a convincing argument to me that the Sox were right to hire a person with zero experience to manage this major league ball club.

Plus, the "last manager to manage the White Sox to a championship" was a major league coach before he was hired by the White Sox.

One of the examples was for a manager hired with no minor or major league experience less than a decade ago, and that manager won a World Series in his second year. Of course, coaches have entirely different relationships with players than managers do. Being on a coaching staff does not prepare a player to be a manager any more than being a veteran who makes himself accessible to younger players.

Another example posted in this thread was of a manager hired with no minor league experience to his first major league job before last season. And he appears postseason bound. The big difference in managing today over 50 years ago is dealing with players getting paid big money. But if you manage in the minors, you rarely manage big-money players. Ventura played in more than 2,000 major league games, was a big money player, dealt with bigger-money players, and understands the strategy of baseball as much as he would with minor league experience.

What you find with more experienced managers is that they don't think out of the box as much. They tend to bunt far more than fans would like. They tend to be more conservative. Managers tend to become more conservative as they spend more time in the majors.

Had Ventura managed in the majors last year and done what he did at the majors (in a season essentially without September), would he be more qualified to be a manager in the majors this year? One successful year in the minors was all Bruce Bochy had before the Padres named him as manager.

dickallen15
08-04-2013, 06:07 PM
Last year the Sox won 85 games. This year, Robin came in with experience. The experience argument is stupid. This is baseball.

BTW, 6 dropped flyballs today in the majors. Managers were bad.

balke
08-04-2013, 08:32 PM
I like Robin. He's likeable. That will buy you near endless amounts of slack.

shingo10
08-04-2013, 08:41 PM
I like Robin. He's likeable. That will buy you near endless amounts of slack.


Very simple and true. It is a fact of life that a likeable person will get more slack than an unlikeable person.

amsteel
08-04-2013, 09:05 PM
Last year the Sox won 85 games. This year, Robin came in with experience. The experience argument is stupid. This is baseball.

BTW, 6 dropped flyballs today in the majors. Managers were bad.

Players making mistakes isn't the manager's fault, the same players making the same mistakes is.

tstrike2000
08-04-2013, 09:09 PM
Very simple and true. It is a fact of life that a likeable person will get more slack than an unlikeable person.

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsO/21636-24520.gif

"I draw... people smiling, dogs running, rainbows. They don't have meetings about rainbows."

Noneck
08-04-2013, 09:11 PM
I read about a manager needing or not needing coaching or managerial experience at either the minor or major league level here. I wonder if a manager needs much baseball experience. In the old days there was a manager, 3rd and 1st base coach, pitching coach and I believe a roving hitting coach (roamed the minor league clubs and the big league club). Now in addition there is a hitting coach, assistant hitting coach, bullpen coach, assistant bullpen coach and bench coach on the big league team. The manager has to be a administrator, not a great baseball mind. If he has a good baseball staff, his job is just coordinating their efforts and being a communicator to his staff, players, media, the GM and in the Sox case the president and chairman.

KingXerxes
08-04-2013, 09:25 PM
Given the downturn in the play of the White Sox, and so many clamoring for a managerial change, I'd like to suggest replacing Ventura tomorrow with Ken Harrelson - with a twist.

Have Harrelson manage the team, but don't relieve him of his play by play duties. Given today's technology it would be easy to put a microphone on him while he's on the bench. Harrelson's ego is certainly big enough to handle it, and White Sox fans would be getting more of what they evidently crave.

:hawk

"So like I was tellin' y'all when the last inning ended, Dick Tracewski had such a heavy sinker that.............C'MON UMP THAT WAS A STRIKE.........well anyway................WHAT?...............when he........hold on a second here folks.............NO NOT YOU COOP - THE PEOPLE AT HOME............uh...........hold on.............(walks out to the mound)........LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE OUT OF GAS HECTOR.........LET'S JUST KILL A LITTLE TIME TO LET DONNIE WARM UP..........anyway, Tracewski threw this sinker...............NO HECTOR, I KNOW YOU DON'T THROW A SINKER, I'M TALKING TO THE FOLKS AT HOME.........well now the ump's coming out here to break this up............."

I would pay to watch this.

DSpivack
08-04-2013, 09:37 PM
Given the downturn in the play of the White Sox, and so many clamoring for a managerial change, I'd like to suggest replacing Ventura tomorrow with Ken Harrelson - with a twist.

Have Harrelson manage the team, but don't relieve him of his play by play duties. Given today's technology it would be easy to put a microphone on him while he's on the bench. Harrelson's ego is certainly big enough to handle it, and White Sox fans would be getting more of what they evidently crave.

:hawk

"So like I was tellin' y'all when the last inning ended, Dick Tracewski had such a heavy sinker that.............C'MON UMP THAT WAS A STRIKE.........well anyway................WHAT?...............when he........hold on a second here folks.............NO NOT YOU COOP - THE PEOPLE AT HOME............uh...........hold on.............(walks out to the mound)........LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE OUT OF GAS HECTOR.........LET'S JUST KILL A LITTLE TIME TO LET DONNIE WARM UP..........anyway, Tracewski threw this sinker...............NO HECTOR, I KNOW YOU DON'T THROW A SINKER, I'M TALKING TO THE FOLKS AT HOME.........well now the ump's coming out here to break this up............."

I would pay to watch this.

:rolling:

jbsand
08-04-2013, 10:28 PM
End of last season: If Sox go only .500 (8-8) for last 16 games, Tigers would have needed to go 12-4 just to tie. Sox go 3-13. Now this. Why is there any discussion? I loved Robin as a player, but as a manager he's an epic failure. The experiment is over.

Tragg
08-05-2013, 12:17 AM
People like him and he didn't hire himself.
But he's a dreadful manager in all phases.

Harry Chappas
08-05-2013, 09:55 AM
End of last season: If Sox go only .500 (8-8) for last 16 games, Tigers would have needed to go 12-4 just to tie. Sox go 3-13. Now this. Why is there any discussion? I loved Robin as a player, but as a manager he's an epic failure. The experiment is over.

Exactly. He had a lot of missteps in his celebrated first year but for whatever reason, people gave him a free pass.

It's amazing how well the Sox plan worked. RV might be the only manager capable of managing this train wreck and not draw the torches and pitchforks. Good job Kenny.

Sure, this team is bad, but it has also quit on him. The proof is in the complete lack of focus which manifests itself in base-running/fielding blunders.

In the meantime, look around the division - Francona, Gardenhire, Leyland, and Yost. Those are baseball lifers who have dedicated themselves to the managerial profession.

dickallen15
08-05-2013, 10:03 AM
Calling Ventura responsible for this train wreck would be like calling a track coach Paulie hired horrible for not showing him how to be Bolt in a race. People need to grow up. Blaming the manager for everything is silly. Alex Rios loafed in Toronto. He loafed for Ozzie. He loafed for Robin. He will loaf for his next manager. Alexei Ramirez makes spectacular plays, but he's made boneheaded plays since he's been here, and doesn't have Paulie at 1B saving him errors anymore. Alejandro De Aza was claimed on WAIVERS. There's a reason for that. He's a boneheaded player and always will be.

Changing the manager solves nothing. Greg Walker used to be responsible for the White Sox offense being inept. They got rid of him, but when did they lose 9 games in a row when their starters had quality starts when he was around? The players need to change.

Joe Maddon is considered a good manager. His first 2 years in TB his teams lost 101 and 96 games. You should go back and look at the talent and individual performances of those teams. You wouldn't trade those teams for the current White Sox.

Irishsox1
08-05-2013, 11:04 AM
Ventura is partly responsible for this season's debacle. The team has taken on his personality and they play like it....which is kinda flat. But when you lose as much as Ventura has, after a while the team tunes the manager out, the media and fans turn on the manager and it's only a matter of time before the manager gets fired. However Ventura is the anti-Ozzie and the press and fans have really eased up on him. Compare that to the way Ozzie was treated when the Sox were actually competitive.

kittle42
08-05-2013, 11:39 AM
Calling Ventura responsible for this train wreck would be like calling a track coach Paulie hired horrible for not showing him how to be Bolt in a race. People need to grow up. Blaming the manager for everything is silly.

Who is blaming him for everything? Methinks you are reading too much into what people are saying - that Robin was inexperienced and a bad hire.

dickallen15
08-05-2013, 11:43 AM
Who is blaming him for everything? Methinks you are reading too much into what people are saying - that Robin was inexperienced and a bad hire.
He won 85 games last season with zero experience. This year, he HAS experience, so your experience argument makes zero sense.

mahagga73
08-05-2013, 11:51 AM
Last year the Sox won 85 games. This year, Robin came in with experience. The experience argument is stupid. This is baseball.

BTW, 6 dropped flyballs today in the majors. Managers were bad.

If the experience argument is stupid why do most all teams hire managers with a track record of either experience as a former manager , assistant, or minor league manager. That statement makes no sense to me.

dickallen15
08-05-2013, 12:11 PM
If the experience argument is stupid why do most all teams hire managers with a track record of either experience as a former manager , assistant, or minor league manager. That statement makes no sense to me.
Because in this particular case, the zero experienced manager won 85 games. Now that he does have experience, his team is losing. You can't have both. If his inexperience is the reason or at least one of the reasons the team is so bad, how come the team was really good last year when he had zero experience? And zero experience is a misnomer. The guy played MLB for 15 years or so. It's not like he started watching the game a week before they hired him. Everyone who criticizes him on this board has less experience than him, yet they seem to think they are experts. This is baseball. The x's and o's are pretty standard. It's dealing with the players and managing the pitching staff which are the tough things, and Cooper has a lot of power in the pitcher's department.

kittle42
08-05-2013, 12:34 PM
Because in this particular case, the zero experienced manager won 85 games. Now that he does have experience, his team is losing. You can't have both. If his inexperience is the reason or at least one of the reasons the team is so bad, how come the team was really good last year when he had zero experience? And zero experience is a misnomer. The guy played MLB for 15 years or so. It's not like he started watching the game a week before they hired him. Everyone who criticizes him on this board has less experience than him, yet they seem to think they are experts. This is baseball. The x's and o's are pretty standard. It's dealing with the players and managing the pitching staff which are the tough things, and Cooper has a lot of power in the pitcher's department.

That repeated statement I have made here has been that he had zero experience at the time he was hired, and that this was a boneheaded move. 85 wins ain't moving any mountains, as an aside.

captain54
08-05-2013, 01:09 PM
I think "why isn't Robin being blamed more for this" title of the thread is becoming less and less relevant as the season increasingly goes down the crapper, seeing as he IS increasingly being blamed more for this

kobo
08-05-2013, 01:24 PM
Because in this particular case, the zero experienced manager won 85 games. Now that he does have experience, his team is losing. You can't have both. If his inexperience is the reason or at least one of the reasons the team is so bad, how come the team was really good last year when he had zero experience? And zero experience is a misnomer. The guy played MLB for 15 years or so. It's not like he started watching the game a week before they hired him. Everyone who criticizes him on this board has less experience than him, yet they seem to think they are experts. This is baseball. The x's and o's are pretty standard. It's dealing with the players and managing the pitching staff which are the tough things, and Cooper has a lot of power in the pitcher's department.
So one year of experience managing at the major league level after having zero experience previous to last year is enough for you? You can't count his playing days as experience because being a player and being a coach/manager are 2 entirely different things. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know better than Robin but I'm also not going to pretend that one year of managing, at any level, is more than enough to be experienced.

dickallen15
08-05-2013, 01:34 PM
So one year of experience managing at the major league level after having zero experience previous to last year is enough for you? You can't count his playing days as experience because being a player and being a coach/manager are 2 entirely different things. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know better than Robin but I'm also not going to pretend that one year of managing, at any level, is more than enough to be experienced.
This is baseball, not someone who is going to cut open my head and operate on my brain, or someone who is representing me for a crime I didn't commit and my freedom at stake.

What experience do you have to be able to judge? If playing in the major leagues for 15 years and managing a season isn't enough "experience", how can the people who are judging this have even less experience?

People like to point out what they think Robin does wrong all the time. How would they know it's wrong, considering you need xxx experience to be able to make the correct decision?

People get a kick out of other people getting fired. Just hope someday that if you have as little to do with a bad situation with your employer as Robin does with the White Sox losing, you don't end up with the fate you want to put on him.

Harry Chappas
08-05-2013, 01:38 PM
Calling Ventura responsible for this train wreck would be like calling a track coach Paulie hired horrible for not showing him how to be Bolt in a race. People need to grow up. Blaming the manager for everything is silly. Alex Rios loafed in Toronto. He loafed for Ozzie. He loafed for Robin. He will loaf for his next manager. Alexei Ramirez makes spectacular plays, but he's made boneheaded plays since he's been here, and doesn't have Paulie at 1B saving him errors anymore. Alejandro De Aza was claimed on WAIVERS. There's a reason for that. He's a boneheaded player and always will be.

Changing the manager solves nothing. Greg Walker used to be responsible for the White Sox offense being inept. They got rid of him, but when did they lose 9 games in a row when their starters had quality starts when he was around? The players need to change.

Joe Maddon is considered a good manager. His first 2 years in TB his teams lost 101 and 96 games. You should go back and look at the talent and individual performances of those teams. You wouldn't trade those teams for the current White Sox.

No one is blaming Ventura for "everything". And FWIW (not much), I wasn't exactly blown-away by his decision-making last season.

Managers get too much credit for wins and losses, but there is some hard to define quality that sets the good managers apart. Some of you act as if being a former player alone is enough to excel at the job. I think there's more to it than that. A good manager seems to be able to push the right buttons and keep the team focused even when things aren't going great. But above all else, they seem to have the respect of their players where they (players) are loathe to let them (managers) down.

kittle42
08-05-2013, 02:39 PM
People get a kick out of other people getting fired. Just hope someday that if you have as little to do with a bad situation with your employer as Robin does with the White Sox losing, you don't end up with the fate you want to put on him.

Jesus Christ - I do not think this is the motivation of one person posting in this thread.

By your logic of "this is only baseball" and not brain surgery or criminal law, one could make the same argument as it relates to countless professions, taking me back to my first point that taking a chance on someone with no experience in a high-level role is not considered a strong business strategy. It's a sport, but it's unquestionably a huge financial business, as well.

I am actually not criticizing Ventura at all. In fact, I made the point that the blame hardly is with him. I blamed those hiring him when he was, in almost everyone's opinion including baseball experts, unqualified.

JB98
08-05-2013, 03:18 PM
I don't think Robin is a great manager, nor do I think he is a poor manager.

I think he manages the same way most every other manager in the game manages. He does the lefty-righty stuff. He doesn't tinker much. Doesn't deviate much from "the book." I really don't think a bunch of blatantly poor strategy from the manager has put the Sox in this position. I can think of a couple of dumb intentional walks that have been issued this year, but for the most part, the players own this.

What I don't know is what goes on beyond closed doors. That's really where Hahn needs to look when he weighs whether to bring Robin back for 2014. I put no stock in Hahn's recent comments. What else is he supposed to say in public? I wouldn't rule out a change just because Hahn said Robin's job isn't on the line. It comes down to whether the GM is comfortable with the way the manager and his staff have dealt with the different situations that have arisen this year. No one here has definitive answers about that.

I know there are people here who think Robin should be gone because he has "lost the team" or whatever. To me, that kind of statement excuses the players. I don't really buy that guys are going out there and ****ing up left and right because they have a problem with the manager, or don't respect the manager. I personally think this is a mentally-weak group of players with no clubhouse leadership whatsoever. They have just completely collapsed in the face of adversity this year. Well, at least the position players have. I find it interesting the starting pitchers are still battling and producing results. Maybe it's because they are all young and are trying to establish themselves in the league, or in Danks' case, trying to re-establish himself after serious injury.

IMO, we have some veterans who are too comfortable. They know the organization has no replacements for them. There's nobody on the bench and little coming in the high minors. The front office needs to do something about that. Create a little internal competition on this team for crying out loud. Alexei Ramirez has no fear of being benched because he is the only man in the entire organization who can possibly handle SS at the big-league level. That's ridiculous. We might be seeing fewer mental errors from him and guys like Rios and De Aza if these players had a little fear for their jobs.

dickallen15
08-05-2013, 03:22 PM
I don't think Robin is a great manager, nor do I think he is a poor manager.

I think he manages the same way most every other manager in the game manages. He does the lefty-righty stuff. He doesn't tinker much. Doesn't deviate much from "the book." I really don't think a bunch of blatantly poor strategy from the manager has put the Sox in this position. I can think of a couple of dumb intentional walks that have been issued this year, but for the most part, the players own this.

What I don't know is what goes on beyond closed doors. That's really where Hahn needs to look when he weighs whether to bring Robin back for 2014. I put no stock in Hahn's recent comments. What else is he supposed to say in public? I wouldn't rule out a change just because Hahn said Robin's job isn't on the line. It comes down to whether the GM is comfortable with the way the manager and his staff have dealt with the different situations that have arisen this year. No one here has definitive answers about that.

I know there are people here who think Robin should be gone because he has "lost the team" or whatever. To me, that kind of statement excuses the players. I don't really buy that guys are going out there and ****ing up left and right because they have a problem with the manager, or don't respect the manager. I personally think this is a mentally-weak group of players with no clubhouse leadership whatsoever. They have just completely collapsed in the face of adversity this year. Well, at least the position players have. I find it interesting the starting pitchers are still battling and producing results. Maybe it's because they are all young and are trying to establish themselves in the league, or in Danks' case, trying to re-establish himself after serious injury.

IMO, we have some veterans who are too comfortable. They know the organization has no replacements for them. There's nobody on the bench and little coming in the high minors. The front office needs to do something about that. Create a little internal competition on this team for crying out loud. Alexei Ramirez has no fear of being benched because he is the only man in the entire organization who can possibly handle SS at the big-league level. That's ridiculous. We might be seeing fewer mental errors from him and guys like Rios and De Aza if these players had a little fear for their jobs.

I would think Hahn at least liked what he saw last year because he did offer Robin an extension. He claims its been the same this year, but you are right, what is he going to say? Although he wouldn't look too genuine saying what he said and then canning him later. I'm sure Robin will be back.

JB98
08-05-2013, 03:25 PM
I would think Hahn at least liked what he saw last year because he did offer Robin an extension. He claims its been the same this year, but you are right, what is he going to say? Although he wouldn't look too genuine saying what he said and then canning him later. I'm sure Robin will be back.

True, but I've seen many GMs hand out votes of confidence, then change the manager after the season. We'll see.

#1swisher
08-05-2013, 05:08 PM
Ventura on responsibility for bad team. "It's all my fault." Tongue in cheek, but he accepts his share. Hahn voiced more support for staff.

Tragg
08-05-2013, 05:14 PM
I don't think Robin is a great manager, nor do I think he is a poor manager.

I think he manages the same way most every other manager in the game manages. He does the lefty-righty stuff.

It's like he's reading from a book when he does that stuff. Lefty up, better bring in Veal...no matter if the bases are loaded and Reed or Nate Jones, the far superior pitchers are available. 3 righties coming up? Well, put in Jones, even though it's the 6th inning and no one's on base. Tie game in the 8th and they have a runner on 2nd with a base open? Better IW the next batter to set up the double play, even though that batter is Chris Getz. Bullpen a little tired - what the heck, pitch the starters 115-120 innings.

I don't know how much Hahn has any say in this anyway. Kenny and JR picked him.

SCCWS
08-05-2013, 05:43 PM
.

I don't know how much Hahn has any say in this anyway. Kenny and JR picked him.

I think JR picked him. The question now is can Hahn fire him and get his own choice. My guess is Manto goes as the scapegoat although Robin may want out as well.

In his biography, Terry Franacona said a manager faces at least 1 player crisis every day.

dickallen15
08-05-2013, 05:51 PM
It's like he's reading from a book when he does that stuff. Lefty up, better bring in Veal...no matter if the bases are loaded and Reed or Nate Jones, the far superior pitchers are available. 3 righties coming up? Well, put in Jones, even though it's the 6th inning and no one's on base. Tie game in the 8th and they have a runner on 2nd with a base open? Better IW the next batter to set up the double play, even though that batter is Chris Getz. Bullpen a little tired - what the heck, pitch the starters 115-120 innings.

I don't know how much Hahn has any say in this anyway. Kenny and JR picked him.

Lefty up he doesn't bring in Veal, basehit, gamethread is full of Ventura is an idiot.

A. Cavatica
08-05-2013, 06:20 PM
Like it or not, this team has to be very very bad before it can start getting good again.

Someone has to be the manager. You don't want someone good enough to turn a .367 team into a .467 team, screw up the draft picks, and tempt the team to hold onto the aging, overpriced veterans.

I think Robin's playing his part to perfection.

mahagga73
08-05-2013, 10:39 PM
Because in this particular case, the zero experienced manager won 85 games. Now that he does have experience, his team is losing. You can't have both. If his inexperience is the reason or at least one of the reasons the team is so bad, how come the team was really good last year when he had zero experience? And zero experience is a misnomer. The guy played MLB for 15 years or so. It's not like he started watching the game a week before they hired him. Everyone who criticizes him on this board has less experience than him, yet they seem to think they are experts. This is baseball. The x's and o's are pretty standard. It's dealing with the players and managing the pitching staff which are the tough things, and Cooper has a lot of power in the pitcher's department.

85 wins is not far above .500 , not very good. I would think a lot of players playing over there head had a lot more to do with that than he did. But if you give him credit for that you must also give him some credit for this mess.

kittle42
08-05-2013, 10:59 PM
Lefty up he doesn't bring in Veal, basehit, gamethread is full of Ventura is an idiot.

Someone's in the gamethread?

Yes, Robin is the victim in all this.

Hitmen77
08-06-2013, 08:20 AM
Regardless of management's culpability in hiring Robin in the first place, I think one big reason that he's not taking more heat for this debacle is, quite frankly, a lot of people just don't care about this team anymore.

This team is so bad that many fans have just tuned them out. As far as the media goes, they don't have that much interest in the Sox to begin with. Having the team be this bad just makes them that much more irrelevant as far as local coverage is concerned.

When Sox teams struggled under Ozzie - those were talented teams that seemed to be just on the cusp of making the playoffs. It was maddening to see them often fall apart early and again late in seasons that held some promise. Of course the manager is going to get heat for that. This year's team is just flat out bad. Ventura is part of the problem because he's not a good manager. But almost nobody thinks getting rid of him will turn this team into a winner. So, people aren't wasting their time getting all pissed off at him.

kittle42
08-06-2013, 10:02 AM
Regardless of management's culpability in hiring Robin in the first place, I think one big reason that he's not taking more heat for this debacle is, quite frankly, a lot of people just don't care about this team anymore.

This team is so bad that many fans have just tuned them out. As far as the media goes, they don't have that much interest in the Sox to begin with. Having the team be this bad just makes them that much more irrelevant as far as local coverage is concerned.

When Sox teams struggled under Ozzie - those were talented teams that seemed to be just on the cusp of making the playoffs. It was maddening to see them often fall apart early and again late in seasons that held some promise. Of course the manager is going to get heat for that. This year's team is just flat out bad. Ventura is part of the problem because he's not a good manager. But almost nobody thinks getting rid of him will turn this team into a winner. So, people aren't wasting their time getting all pissed off at him.

Very good summary. I know I am in this boat.