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LITTLE NELL
08-03-2013, 06:54 AM
Before the season I thought the Sox were going to win about 84 games. With Keppinger our only pick-up and letting AJ walk I didn't see us giving Detroit a run for the division. Never in my worst nightmares did I see a train wreck of massive proportions like we are seeing with this team, did anyone see this coming. I'd like to compare this to the 67-68 seasons when in 67 we led the AL for most of the season and lost 5 games in a row to the 2 worst teams in the last week, much like last years meltdown. In 68 the team fell from one of the best to one of the worst much like this year, same thing then, no one saw it coming. In some respects 68 was a bigger shocker because the White Sox were always contenders with 17 straight winning seasons and some like me had never seen a White Sox losing season.

WSox597
08-03-2013, 08:18 AM
No, I thought they would probably be around .500. I did not anticipate this train wreck.

I thought with the good pitching they have on paper, along with the decent defense from last year, they would at least be .500. The offense would continue to sputter.

But this nightmare took most by surprise I would think. Several players are going backwards rather than getting better, Viciedo comes to mind, as does Flowers.

The bullpen melting down so many times was a surprise too. They've lost way too many games after leading late, due to the bullpen.

Not a good year at all.

SCCWS
08-03-2013, 08:37 AM
The bullpen melting down so many times was a surprise too. They've lost way too many games after leading late, due to the bullpen.

Not a good year at all.

Actually the White Sox are tied for 4th with the least blown saves in the AL.

soxnut67
08-03-2013, 08:52 AM
I was wondering when our offense would fail like this. For far too long, the "home run or nothing" approach has needed to go.

In a way, I'm glad that this has happened. Maybe now this organization will get it's head on straight and start getting players who actually want to play baseball and not home run derby.

WLL1855
08-03-2013, 08:55 AM
Actually the White Sox are tied for 4th with the least blown saves in the AL.

The pen overall has been terrible about putting guys on base. Do that often enough (and we do it plenty) and runs end up on the scoreboard. There have been more than a few games with the score tied late that we've pissed away. 5-11 in extra inning games and 14-24 in one run games (but I think you can blame at least some of the close losses on a pathetic offense.)

34rancher
08-03-2013, 08:56 AM
This is the season I expected last year. But I forgot TWTW of AJ. With aging veterans, no real leadership in managing, and a core of undisciplined hitters it has progressed quickly. To be honest, I know it's unpopular but the day we signed Dunn, this is the future I expected. We had way too much money invested in him and Peavy to be that solid across the board. Whether or not it's his fault, a jinx, I just don't see him being on winning teams.
Also, are people finally willing to get off walkers back with finger pointing?

DrCrawdad
08-03-2013, 09:05 AM
Before the season I thought the Sox were going to win about 84 games. With Keppinger our only pick-up and letting AJ walk I didn't see us giving Detroit a run for the division. Never in my worst nightmares did I see a train wreck of massive proportions like we are seeing with this team, did anyone see this coming. I'd like to compare this to the 67-68 seasons when in 67 we led the AL for most of the season and lost 5 games in a row to the 2 worst teams in the last week, much like last years meltdown. In 68 the team fell from one of the best to one of the worst much like this year, same thing then, no one saw it coming. In some respects 68 was a bigger shocker because the White Sox were always contenders with 17 straight winning seasons and some like me had never seen a White Sox losing season.

I did not see this coming. I didn't expect the Sox to contend but nor did I see them stinking so very, very badly.

SI1020
08-03-2013, 09:38 AM
Like a lot of you I figured them to be around .500, no more than 5 games above or below. However, due to the makeup of our lineup and the sad situation on the farm I knew this sort of thing was possible. I just didn't see it coming this year. Next year or the year after without a serious upgrade in the roster maybe.

DumpJerry
08-03-2013, 10:22 AM
Actually the White Sox are tied for 4th with the least blown saves in the AL.
Where do we rank in save opportunities? Since we seem to score only one or two runs a game, I/m thinking there have not been as many as most other teams.

Golden Sox
08-03-2013, 10:27 AM
I sure didn't think this team would be this bad. This White Sox season is unlike one I have ever seen. I've seen some bad White Sox teams in my lifetime but this is a team that is making White Sox baseball history. This is the only last place White Sox team I've seen that has decent pitching. This team is in last place because it can't hit. The base running and defense has been bad but we've had teams like that in the past. We have scored 3 or less runs in 70% of our games this year. Hopefully Hahn will add 2 or 3 hitters in the off season to correct this problem.

tebman
08-03-2013, 10:30 AM
No, I didn't see this either. In May and early June I was angry about the sloppy defense and inability to drive in runs. As they've continued to sink since then I just sort of gape at them. I don't get it.

Like so many others I thought they'd finish around .500 with steady pitching and defense and modest hitting. The pitching has generally held up but the other two legs of the stool have completely fallen off.

I'm hoping this is a weird anomaly that will be resolved for next year. It's like a car that had been reliable then suddenly has a string of failures: bad starter, failed air conditioner, broken fuel pump. You wonder how something that seemed to work so well could have so much trouble at the same time.

CoopaLoop
08-03-2013, 10:50 AM
Pegged em in the 70's with the thought if everything went right they could be close to a .500 team.

soxfanreggie
08-03-2013, 11:30 AM
I expected more out of this team because I foolishly thought Dunn would get it all together and earn his salary along with thinking Alexei would make strides. I expected more out of the bullpen too. Crain being injured after his dominating start and Thornton/Veal's struggles didn't help. Besides them, we're throwing a lot of young arms out of there.

Where I have been greatly disappointed by the Sox is at catcher. We have constantly ignored that position and Flowers was showing before this year that he wasn't the answer. I'm not sure what Phegley will offer us in the future, but I'm hoping if there is a great catching prospect available with our more-than-likely top-3 pick, that we will consider taking him.

I'm not sure what 2014 will bring. My hope may be 75 wins, but moreso I want to get Alex and Dunn off the books and see what we have ready in the minors while getting a good package of FAs to come in for 2015.

Senerch23
08-03-2013, 11:35 AM
I sure didn't think this team would be this bad. This White Sox season is unlike one I have ever seen. I've seen some bad White Sox teams in my lifetime but this is a team that is making White Sox baseball history. This is the only last place White Sox team I've seen that has decent pitching. This team is in last place because it can't hit. The base running and defense has been bad but we've had teams like that in the past. We have scored 3 or less runs in 70% of our games this year. Hopefully Hahn will add 2 or 3 hitters in the off season to correct this problem.

There aren't 3 players available to correct the problem of this team's lineup. Outside of pitching, this team needs a complete rebuild.

fisk4ever
08-03-2013, 11:52 AM
Like a lot of you I figured them to be around .500, no more than 5 games above or below. However, due to the makeup of our lineup and the sad situation on the farm I knew this sort of thing was possible. I just didn't see it coming this year. Next year or the year after without a serious upgrade in the roster maybe.

Ditto.

harwar
08-03-2013, 12:02 PM
I expected 5-10 below 500 .. i sure didn't see this coming..

SoxSpeed22
08-03-2013, 12:08 PM
I also had them pegged for less than 90 losses. The biggest problem I didn't expect was the overall drop-off defensively. There were obvious holes going into the season, so I didn't think they would win 90, but I didn't think they would (likely) lose 100+.

hawkjt
08-03-2013, 12:39 PM
I was hopeful for a winning season.

The offense and defense was respectable last year for most of the season.
No reason to expect them to fall apart,but they did.
PK hit .400 the first two months last year,and had decent numbers,even with the injuries.....this year..nothing.

AJ's offense is sorely missed.
Keppinger has been a disaster.
They lose a ton of close games...playing just good enough to barely lose.
They are now losing out of habit.

white sox bill
08-03-2013, 01:13 PM
I was expecting .500 to a few games under 500. Certainly not the bottom feeders of the AL

BigKlu59
08-03-2013, 01:26 PM
I was hopeful for a winning season.

The offense and defense was respectable last year for most of the season.
No reason to expect them to fall apart,but they did.
PK hit .400 the first two months last year,and had decent numbers,even with the injuries.....this year..nothing.

AJ's offense is sorely missed.
Keppinger has been a disaster.
They lose a ton of close games...playing just good enough to barely lose.
They are now losing out of habit.

Canvas started out as all Pale Hose teams, the dreaded mediocre .500 minimum with wishes of picking up 15-20 W's to remain a competative squad... I didnt see this iceberg vs Titanic coming.. As had been said, the pitching really hasnt sucked, they just can win the close ones for the life of them. Of course if they could catch the damn ball or hit the damn ball we wouldnt be lamenting those close ones.. Agree... There was a leadership vacuum after AJ left. His hits and "tude" are obviously missing from this team..

68 as Nell says was a, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?.. just based on the longevity of the teams competative nature. 13 falls under more of a you gotta be ****ing kidding me,... observation.. never expected the apples to rot in the basket all at the same time and same pace...

This kinda slop belongs on the North Side of town..They have been acclimated to it...

BK59

fungo bat
08-03-2013, 01:54 PM
Before the season I thought the Sox were going to win about 84 games. With Keppinger our only pick-up and letting AJ walk I didn't see us giving Detroit a run for the division. Never in my worst nightmares did I see a train wreck of massive proportions like we are seeing with this team, did anyone see this coming. I'd like to compare this to the 67-68 seasons when in 67 we led the AL for most of the season and lost 5 games in a row to the 2 worst teams in the last week, much like last years meltdown. In 68 the team fell from one of the best to one of the worst much like this year, same thing then, no one saw it coming. In some respects 68 was a bigger shocker because the White Sox were always contenders with 17 straight winning seasons and some like me had never seen a White Sox losing season.

I recall '67 and the fallout from '68. I don't think anyone saw that coming, either. Like this year's team, those Sox teams couldn't hit. But they had excellent pitching and defense. The wheels fell off in '68 when they started the season by losing the first 10 games. Stanky paid the price and was gone by mid-season. Like this year's team, they got old quick and there was nothing on the farm to fill the void.

I figured the Sox for 78 wins this year. I thought they would be competitive. Watching this year's team is absolute agony. They are disgraceful.

So much for blaming Guillen, or Walker. The real fault lies with the front office, specifically Williams. There are many other factors, of course, including overrating some of the talent currently on the roster. Hahn now has a lot of work to do to get the Sox back on track.

Somehow Williams got himself kicked upstairs. Granted, he made some good moves over the years. And he deserves partial credit for the championship of 2005. But for every good move he's made, he's made plenty of bad decisions. This year's debacle can be traced back to Williams depleting the farm system over the years in an attempt to keep the Sox consistently competitive vs. shifting into a rebuilding mode. The Sox are now paying the price for this decision.

It's hard to believe we're 27 games under .500. But when you don't hit, don't run the bases very well, don't field, and are fundamentally poor you are going to lose more than you win.

I still think the Sox have a decent core of young pitching to build around. That means they may be able to turn this thing around quicker than normal. Let's hope so. It's been a depressing season on the south side.

JB98
08-03-2013, 01:57 PM
I didn't think it would get this bad, no, because of the starting pitching that is in place. Even during this horrible losing streak, the starting pitchers have posted a 2.68 ERA. That's good enough to be .500, even if your position players and relief pitchers are bad. Unfortunately, the position players on this team are just hopeless.

If you would have told me before the season things are going to go wrong and they'll lose between 85 and 90, yeah, I could have believed that. But never in my worst nightmares did I expect to be staring down a 100-loss season.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2013, 02:58 PM
I thought that at best this team would win 83 games and at worst would lose somewhere around 90. I never thought that they would be THIS bad. They could lose 100.

Noneck
08-03-2013, 03:20 PM
I didnt expect them to be good and it was a possibility that they could be this bad. I remember the late 60's and 1970, the Sox had good starting staffs but their record was really bad. You can have a good starting staff and have a horrible record.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-03-2013, 03:34 PM
Where do we rank in save opportunities? Since we seem to score only one or two runs a game, I/m thinking there have not been as many as most other teams.

The Sox are 10th of 15 AL teams in saves, with 26. They are right in the middle, 8th, in overall ERA (3.98) of all AL teams.

Interestingly, the team with the lowest number of saves is the BoSox with 21. Highest is Baltimore with 42.

And the team with lowest ERA is KC (3.62).

StillMissOzzie
08-03-2013, 04:10 PM
It was apparent that the offense was going to be worse than last year, but I don't know how anyone could have seen the decline in defense. IIRC, I had this team at 86-76, and not really contending, but at least interesting enough to watch. Now, I don't even watch unless there is nothing better to do.

SMO
:mad:

Red Barchetta
08-03-2013, 04:30 PM
The last two seasons have been the most frustrating seasons to watch in my life.

First, I have always liked Robin Ventura as a player and a person. However, like many, I was skeptical that he could be an effective manager. Mostly because I had never, ever, read about his desire to become a manager. It was almost like the SOX chose him as a good company man and then made up the story about how Ventura approached the SOX.

Second, it seemed as though Ventura and the rest of the team were surprised on how well they played last season. They carried themselves all season as a team that was going to beat themselves and eventually surrender the division to the Tigers because 2012 was supposed to be a "rebuilding year". For a team that was in first place for a large part of the season, they didn't act like it or have the aura of confidence most first place teams have.

Lastly, I think that same mental attitude carried itself over into the 2013 season. If you take into account the last month of the 2012 season, the 2013 White Sox are pretty much the same team both in on-field performance and mental approach.

captain54
08-03-2013, 05:16 PM
the collapse in 2012 in down the stretch exposed the team for what it was.. a no hitting/relying on homers bunch of stiffs... I will never understand what they were thinking making Flowers the everyday and letting AJ go..

what hasnt been mentioned is how the rest of the division, with the exception of Minnesota, got better..

To say if anyone say anything coming in sports in general is kind of silly.. even if you are betting, you are just playing percentages. its not an exact science..

I hope fans understand the historic magnitude of what is happening here... this organization has been exposed down to its bare bones..There are serious problems at every level.. This is not just a bad season, this is a monumental collapse on all levels.. and the blame goes straight to the Ivory Tower at 35th and Shields.. I for one do not have one ounce of faith that simply changing the personnel on the field or the manager is gonna fix this situation.

TDog
08-03-2013, 05:45 PM
Actually the White Sox are tied for 4th with the least blown saves in the AL.

That's a deceptive statistic. Twice this year, the White Sox have scored five runs in an inning to take the lead, and on both occasions, the opposition came back to score five runs in the next half inning. The only other five-run inning I recall the Sox having this year only made the game close, but in that game the Angels came up with four in the next half inning to put the game out of reach. It isn't just about the Sox not scoring runs to support great pitching. The season has been a series of key pitching mistakes that have lost close games. Even Chris Sale has lost games where he had the lead because he made key mistakes. In a home game against the A's, he had a 3-0 lead in the fifth and gave up a grand slam after walking a hitter to load the bases.

One reason comparing the Sox bullpen to others around baseball is deceptive is that for the Sox, the bullpen was supposed to be a strength, especially with the addition of Lindstrom. But it wasn't just the bullpen. The hitting was expected to be better. Keppinger looked like he was going to be the No. 2 hitter to hit behind a good leadoff man in front of a healthy Konerko and a Dunn that was going to keep coming back. Beckham looked like he was going to be the hitter he showed promise to be as a rookie he providing strong defense up the middle with Ramirez. Despite Beckham having a good year offensively, he was lost after the first homestand and none of that stuff panned out.

Of course no one saw this coming. People who claim to have seen this coming are gloating over their fulfilled worst-case-scenario dreams for White Sox baseball. Everything has gone wrong this season, and the Sox have still managed to win games where thing have gone horribly wrong.

This isn't unlike 1968. I turned 13 in 1970, and this is the White Sox of my teens, with the exception of 1972. Even in 1977, the White Sox won a lot of games playing really bad baseball. There have comparisons made to 1970, but this team is really 1976 when there seemed a little promise early or 1973 because of the injuries. Really, this is what watching White Sox baseball was like in the 1970s.

And the reasons aren't so dissimilar. The Sox fell apart at the end of the 1960s because they traded most of their best young players and prospects (Don Buford and Tommy Agee were opposing outfielders in the 1969 World Series) for stopgap veterans to maintain a team that could play above .500. The White Sox finished the 1960s with a thin farm system. The top slugger in the system in 1971 was Ken Hottman hitting 37 home runs in Tucson, and there is a reason even Bill Melton didn't remember him when I asked him if he did.

This is what White Sox baseball was like before the Reinsdorf group bought the team. The difference now is that the White Sox have a foundation in pitching. Personnel rules should allow the Sox to get better sooner. Also, I think there are some players that are having the antithesis of the career year.

Hitmen77
08-04-2013, 09:30 PM
I doubt most people saw a team this bad coming. I was expecting something like 79 wins.

That being said, I have seen the Sox slide to becoming a lousy team (not this bad, though) for a few years now. The inability to develop talent within the organization (either to fill holes on our team or to trade for other talent) is at the core of this train wreck and that's been many years in the making.

doublem23
08-05-2013, 02:13 AM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1697263713/bp_logo_189x189.png

Heh, remember in March when everyone threw a **** fit because they had the audacity to pick the Sox to finish last in the Central? Those were the days.

DrCrawdad
08-05-2013, 02:21 AM
https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1697263713/bp_logo_189x189.png

Heh, remember in March when everyone threw a **** fit because they had the audacity to pick the Sox to finish last in the Central? Those were the days.


http://storiesfromschoolaz.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f249cfc1970b019103d0321a970c-pi

QCIASOXFAN
08-05-2013, 05:44 AM
what hasnt been mentioned is how the rest of the division, with the exception of Minnesota, got better..

This is true at the moment, but the Twins have the best farm system in baseball right now. If you haven't heard of Miguel Sano or Byron Buxton yet, well you will. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. :whiner:

soxfan1965
08-05-2013, 06:45 AM
I'd like to compare this to the 67-68 seasons when in 67 we led the AL for most of the season and lost 5 games in a row to the 2 worst teams in the last week, much like last years meltdown. In 68 the team fell from one of the best to one of the worst much like this year, same thing then, no one saw it coming. In some respects 68 was a bigger shocker because the White Sox were always contenders with 17 straight winning seasons and some like me had never seen a White Sox losing season.
I was thinking the exact thing, 67 to 68. They were probably overachieving in 67 and years before and skeptical Cub fans told me that Sox win too many games by 1 run in low scoring games. In 68 it caught up with them. Sox probably overachieved in 2012 and caught up with them at end of season like 67 and full blown in 2013/1968.

So much for blaming Guillen, or Walker. The real fault lies with the front office, specifically Williams.....Somehow Williams got himself kicked upstairs. Granted, he made some good moves over the years. And he deserves partial credit for the championship of 2005. But for every good move he's made, he's made plenty of bad decisions. This year's debacle can be traced back to Williams depleting the farm system over the years in an attempt to keep the Sox consistently competitive vs. shifting into a rebuilding mode. The Sox are now paying the price for this decision.

You nailed it! To restate the obvious, I would add writing bad contracts, assuming bad contracts or contracts with poor return due to injury/bad timing. Although a different sport and with salary cap, you have to admire the way Blackhawks management made some surgical moves shortly after winning their Stanley Cup in 2010 and again in 2013, separated from emotion. Theo & team are probably doing the same and let's hope Hahn is too to first clean up the mess and establish his own well-thought long term plan. Having said all that, thanks Kenny for 2005, would rather have one great season and 8 misses (2006-2013) than 8 above average seasons (like the 1960-1967 Sox).

Zakath
08-05-2013, 06:57 AM
Considering that we were a .500 team on May 26, no.

Since then, we haven't had a winning streak longer than 3 games, while having 5 losing streaks longer than that (2 4's, a 5, an 8, and now the 10).

Jurr
08-05-2013, 07:36 AM
I just knew that this product was so entirely stale that I was apathetic about the whole season. I still have not watched a complete game this year, which is a lifetime first.

I figured they would suck. Sucking is usually the 72 win variety, not this.
I am discouraged that they failed to trade off more players. I am encouraged by the fact that they will most likely can Ventura by season's end.

I want to like my baseball team again, and haven't for a while.
I'm glad the product is about to change.

HomeFish
08-05-2013, 08:00 AM
I don't remember if I picked the Sox to be last or to be second to last ahead of Minnesota, but I've been saying they'll be horrible for a while.

Procol Harum
08-05-2013, 09:35 AM
Thought they would probably be mediocre, but pegged that somewhere in the .500 range--never thought it would unravel like this.

Little Nell's thoughts about '67/'68 are on target, although we're running behind the '68 team at this point. For we old-timers, let's hope that '14 and '15 don't reflect our experiences in '69 and '70.... :o:

cws05champ
08-05-2013, 09:50 AM
I don't remember if I picked the Sox to be last or to be second to last ahead of Minnesota, but I've been saying they'll be horrible for a while.

Really?? That sounds nothing like you....

BedfordChisox
08-05-2013, 09:59 AM
I certainly didn't see this train wreck coming. In light of the surprising 2012 performance, I was inspired to write a message here last September extolling the future. In retrospect, that post was so mind-numbingly stupid, I have been tempted to change my user name just to avoid any association with it.

Belated kudos to those of you who tried to set me straight with your responses to that posting. There were quite a few of you.

Golden Sox
08-05-2013, 10:45 AM
In 1976 the White Sox were 64-97. The manager of the team, Paul Richards said at the end of the season that the team was the worse team he ever managed in his career. Looking back at it, I find it amazing they didn't lose 110 games. They couldn't pitch, throw, catch or hit. Talent wise it was much worse than the 2013 White Sox. After the 1976 season the White Sox acquired 3 good hitters,(good not great hitters) Zisk, Gamble and Soderholm. The 1977 White Sox won 90 games. The only thing that team could do was hit. It couldn't pitch, catch or throw. If the 1977 White Sox had the 2013 White Sox pitching staff they would of been in the playoffs. The point I'm trying to make is I'm optimistic about the White Sox future. With this pitching staff the team needs at least 3 more hitters to contend next year. There in much better shape trying to obtain hitters than what they would be if they were trying to obtain 3 starting pitchers. The only thing keeping me going the rest of this season is I'm hoping they bring up Garcia and Johnson sooner rather than later.

Tragg
08-05-2013, 11:04 AM
I don't think that Williams trying to keep the team competitive was really the problem.
I think the problem is really more bad scouting, bad player development, coaching and bad trades.
Bad scouting in the sense that we weren't getting much quality from our farm system. Bad scouting in the sense that these prospects we traded for, and we always seemed to zero in on one prospect, were duds: Flowers, Stewart, Castro(Castro may end up being okay but likely nothing special - heck he should be in our pen right now), Molina, the 3 players we got from the Yankees for Swisher.
And then there were bad trades. When we were dumping veterans, we seemed to zero-in on one prospect, rather than get back the best package we could. some looked like utter give-aways. When we traded our veterans, however, we loaded the wagon - 3 of our top 5 prospects for Nick Swisher; our two top pitching prospects for Edwin Jackson, only to flip him for nothing.
And our farm yielded nothing in position players except for Beckham whom we rushed. Pitching was much better. But even that, while development has been good on the top end, doesn't have a lot of depth (we have only 2 developed pitchers in our bullpen).
We've had one highly regarded coach through this time - Cooper. It shows.

dickallen15
08-05-2013, 11:08 AM
I wasn't a fan of KW, but other than Gio, who ultimately did he dump from the minors that if he had kept, would have made a difference? He didn't devastate the minor league system by trading guys away, he devasted it by not drafting well and/or poor development. His trades overall actually added to its value, not detracted.

Domeshot17
08-05-2013, 11:08 AM
I think the answer is yes and no. Yes, I expected the Sox to be bad this year. No, I did not expect the Sox to be THIS BAD.

But when you are below average offensively at 6 or 7 of the 9 positions, you are doomed. Especially when you are not trading offense for defense at most of those.

Realistically, Lets Say Garcia is the solution in RF and Rios is fine in LF, We need a new C, 1b, 3b, DH, maybe CF, maybe SS, maybe 2b.

There really is not 1 guy on this team you feel great about being on this team next year offensively outside Garcia (who is a prospect) and Gordon (who is your 9 hitter).

Tragg
08-05-2013, 11:39 AM
I think the answer is yes and no. Yes, I expected the Sox to be bad this year. No, I did not expect the Sox to be THIS BAD.

But when you are below average offensively at 6 or 7 of the 9 positions, you are doomed. Especially when you are not trading offense for defense at most of those.

Realistically, Lets Say Garcia is the solution in RF and Rios is fine in LF, We need a new C, 1b, 3b, DH, maybe CF, maybe SS, maybe 2b.

There really is not 1 guy on this team you feel great about being on this team next year offensively outside Garcia (who is a prospect) and Gordon (who is your 9 hitter).
Look at the yankees. They have 2 hitters with OPS+ over 100; we have 3. The Royals have 3. The Rangers and Diamondbacks have 4.
Why are those teams over .500 and we're 29 below? It's not hitting.
Defense, baserunning, and something we haven't talked much about - bullpen (another area where lack of depth in the farm really hurts - we can't even fill our bullpen with farmhands and we really have only 2 respectable pieces in our pen right now).
Not that our hitting doesn't need to improve. It does by a lot. but in the meantime, get some defensive players in here to play C, SS and CF in the offseason (we should be able to get someone like Chris Young on the cheap), get some coaching, and bring up Castro and some others for auditions for the pen.
Jettison Rios (no power anymore), Alexei if we can. I'd tend to keep DeAza and let him play left where defense won't hurt as bad (deal him if someone would give us value, which they might - not a bad hitter). Find a defensive catcher.

Foulke You
08-05-2013, 11:59 AM
Never once did I feel the "Summer of Sadness" was upon us. I mean, this is deadball era level of offense in the modern era. History in the making. Even the people straining their arms to pat themselves on the back for predicting a bad team have to admit that this offense is far worse than even they could have imagined. This year makes the 2011 offense look like a juggernaut. We lost Floyd for the entire year, lost Peavy to injury and trade, and we STILL have one of the best starting pitching staffs but unless that staff pitches a shutout, they have no hope to win a game. The only positive about this season is that it forces management to transition to a new core of position players.

Foulke You
08-05-2013, 12:02 PM
There really is not 1 guy on this team you feel great about being on this team next year offensively outside Garcia (who is a prospect) and Gordon (who is your 9 hitter).
It's too early to comment about next year's lineup because it is likely to look vastly different than what is being trotted out there in 2013. Hahn has been quoted as saying they are "transitioning to a new core". The process begins when Garcia gets called up before the end of the year but I expect that process to continue in the offseason with trades, acquired prospects, and FA signings. I figure a minimum of four starters to be replaced.

shes
08-05-2013, 12:48 PM
Look at the yankees. They have 2 hitters with OPS+ over 100; we have 3. The Royals have 3. The Rangers and Diamondbacks have 4.
Why are those teams over .500 and we're 29 below? It's not hitting.
Defense, baserunning, and something we haven't talked much about - bullpen (another area where lack of depth in the farm really hurts - we can't even fill our bullpen with farmhands and we really have only 2 respectable pieces in our pen right now).
Not that our hitting doesn't need to improve. It does by a lot. but in the meantime, get some defensive players in here to play C, SS and CF in the offseason (we should be able to get someone like Chris Young on the cheap), get some coaching, and bring up Castro and some others for auditions for the pen.
Jettison Rios (no power anymore), Alexei if we can. I'd tend to keep DeAza and let him play left where defense won't hurt as bad (deal him if someone would give us value, which they might - not a bad hitter). Find a defensive catcher.

That's a pretty arbitrary way of evaluating hitting.

The White Sox are second to last in runs scored, behind only the AA club known as the Marlins. That speaks to a massive problem in hitting, or if you want to be a bit more all-encompassing, in overall offensive execution. They can't hit, can't run the bases, can't move runners along when the situation dictates.

The other problems are significant, sure, but they aren't nearly as big as the offense problem.

russ99
08-05-2013, 12:57 PM
That's a pretty arbitrary way of evaluating hitting.

The White Sox are second to last in runs scored, behind only the AA club known as the Marlins. That speaks to a massive problem in hitting, or if you want to be a bit more all-encompassing, in overall offensive execution. They can't hit, can't run the bases, can't move runners along when the situation dictates.

The other problems are significant, sure, but they aren't nearly as big as the offense problem.

We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.

Pretty much across the board bad.

Tragg
08-05-2013, 01:22 PM
We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.

Pretty much across the board bad.

Yet we're 4th in OBP and and BA with RISP. That tells a lot. We run the bases poorly.
We need 3 or so run producers on this team. But if the rest could be league close to league average hitters, or even a few below, but could run the bases (and I don't mean steals) that would help immeasurably and we could be respectable.

captain54
08-05-2013, 01:29 PM
We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.
.

Even the 2005 team was not really an offensive juggernaut, and the Home Run or nothing philosophy in addition to some amazing pitching that year brought it all home... Heck, they won the clinching WS game 1-0, and during the 05 season were below average in OBP, BA and Hits...

The problem is, the organization never budged from the 05 formula of.. swing for the fences and great pitching... it was bound to catch up with them sooner or later

24thStFan
08-05-2013, 01:34 PM
We're 29th in runs, 21st in hits, 28th in walks, 21st in HRs, 27th in extra base hits, 22nd in RISP, 26th in 2-out RISP, 19th in BA, 28th in OBP.

Pretty much across the board bad.
According to the White Sox MLB web site:
"Conor Gillaspie and Jeff Keppinger, who have split most of the time at 3rd base, are batting .159 with one home run and three RBIs during the team's current 10-game losing streak".

Now that's BAD!

hawkjt
08-05-2013, 02:44 PM
I don't think that Williams trying to keep the team competitive was really the problem.
I think the problem is really more bad scouting, bad player development, coaching and bad trades.
Bad scouting in the sense that we weren't getting much quality from our farm system. Bad scouting in the sense that these prospects we traded for, and we always seemed to zero in on one prospect, were duds: Flowers, Stewart, Castro(Castro may end up being okay but likely nothing special - heck he should be in our pen right now), Molina, the 3 players we got from the Yankees for Swisher.
And then there were bad trades. When we were dumping veterans, we seemed to zero-in on one prospect, rather than get back the best package we could. some looked like utter give-aways. When we traded our veterans, however, we loaded the wagon - 3 of our top 5 prospects for Nick Swisher; our two top pitching prospects for Edwin Jackson, only to flip him for nothing.
And our farm yielded nothing in position players except for Beckham whom we rushed. Pitching was much better. But even that, while development has been good on the top end, doesn't have a lot of depth (we have only 2 developed pitchers in our bullpen).
We've had one highly regarded coach through this time - Cooper. It shows.


Agree. Gio is just about the only traded Sox prospect that has amounted to much....who else?

No, the problem is
1. Sox had a long run of sustained competiveness( 2000-2102) which meant no high draft picks really since the early 90's.
2. There drafting has been poor.
3. Development of hitters has been poor.

That is all Kenny's responsibility but the trades were not what killed the Sox farm system....nothing there to begin with.

eriqjaffe
08-05-2013, 02:49 PM
Agree. Gio is just about the only traded Sox prospect that has amounted to much....who else?Daniel Hudson has put up really good numbers in Arizona. Sure, last year he didn't do well, but it may explain why he needed Tommy John surgery. The jury's still out on how good he'll be long-term, though.

Tragg
08-05-2013, 02:53 PM
Daniel Hudson has put up really good numbers in Arizona. Sure, last year he didn't do well, but it may explain why he needed Tommy John surgery. The jury's still out on how good he'll be long-term, though.

And Holmberg is one of their top prospects.

It's not like we lost a ton...remarkable really how little we lost considering all of our top prospects we dealt.

doublem23
08-05-2013, 03:05 PM
Daniel Hudson has put up really good numbers in Arizona. Sure, last year he didn't do well, but it may explain why he needed Tommy John surgery. The jury's still out on how good he'll be long-term, though.

Didn't he re-tear his UCL and basically have to get Tommy John surgery again?

Maybe the jury is still out on what his ceiling could have been, but I'm not sure there's a lot of people expecting much from him any more.

Domeshot17
08-05-2013, 04:18 PM
Look at the yankees. They have 2 hitters with OPS+ over 100; we have 3. The Royals have 3. The Rangers and Diamondbacks have 4.
Why are those teams over .500 and we're 29 below? It's not hitting.
Defense, baserunning, and something we haven't talked much about - bullpen (another area where lack of depth in the farm really hurts - we can't even fill our bullpen with farmhands and we really have only 2 respectable pieces in our pen right now).
Not that our hitting doesn't need to improve. It does by a lot. but in the meantime, get some defensive players in here to play C, SS and CF in the offseason (we should be able to get someone like Chris Young on the cheap), get some coaching, and bring up Castro and some others for auditions for the pen.
Jettison Rios (no power anymore), Alexei if we can. I'd tend to keep DeAza and let him play left where defense won't hurt as bad (deal him if someone would give us value, which they might - not a bad hitter). Find a defensive catcher.

(1) You are cherry picking here, terrible use of stats
(2) You did not mention 1 first place team in your list.....
(3) Only 1 team you listed currently has greater than a 50% chance to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS
(4) Yes, fundamentals are bad as well, hence why I mentioned we aren't trading offense for defense here.....

Iron Dragon2
08-05-2013, 07:22 PM
Last year, I thought they'd be a 70-72 win team. I was wrong. I thought this year they'd be a 70-72 win team. Apparently, I'm going to be wrong again. More like a 60-62 win team....

amsteel
08-05-2013, 07:24 PM
If this year's team plays 1000 seasons they probably average 75 wins. This year (and last year) are outliers.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-05-2013, 07:29 PM
If this year's team plays 1000 seasons they probably average 75 wins. This year (and last year) are outliers.

This team is already old. I don't see how they would win 75 games even 20 years from now when Konerko is 58, let alone 100 years from now.

October26
08-05-2013, 07:49 PM
In 1976 the White Sox were 64-97. The manager of the team, Paul Richards said at the end of the season that the team was the worse team he ever managed in his career. Looking back at it, I find it amazing they didn't lose 110 games. They couldn't pitch, throw, catch or hit. Talent wise it was much worse than the 2013 White Sox. After the 1976 season the White Sox acquired 3 good hitters,(good not great hitters) Zisk, Gamble and Soderholm. The 1977 White Sox won 90 games. The only thing that team could do was hit. It couldn't pitch, catch or throw. If the 1977 White Sox had the 2013 White Sox pitching staff they would of been in the playoffs. The point I'm trying to make is I'm optimistic about the White Sox future. With this pitching staff the team needs at least 3 more hitters to contend next year. Their in much shape trying to obtain hitters than what they would be if they were trying to obtain 3 starting pitchers. The only thing keeping me going the rest of this season is I'm hoping they bring up Garcia and Johnson sooner rather than later.

Thank you for taking me back to 1976 and 1977. I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your optimism, especially right now. And to answer the original question, no I did not see this coming.

SCCWS
08-05-2013, 07:53 PM
Yet we're 4th in OBP and and BA with RISP. That tells a lot. We run the bases poorly.
We need 3 or so run producers on this team. But if the rest could be league close to league average hitters, or even a few below, but could run the bases (and I don't mean steals) that would help immeasurably and we could be respectable.


The White Sox are 14th not 4th in OBP according to ESPN

QCIASOXFAN
08-05-2013, 08:07 PM
The White Sox are 14th not 4th in OBP according to ESPN

I am astonished it is that high.

CoopaLoop
08-05-2013, 08:28 PM
Yet we're 4th in OBP and and BA with RISP. That tells a lot. We run the bases poorly.
We need 3 or so run producers on this team. But if the rest could be league close to league average hitters, or even a few below, but could run the bases (and I don't mean steals) that would help immeasurably and we could be respectable.

All it tells is a really bad sox offense has been pretty good in a small sample size with RISP. That's it.