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1908<2005
07-12-2013, 10:39 PM
For Brandon Jacobs, the outfielder not the running back.

https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/355878817329451008

Jurr
07-12-2013, 10:41 PM
Ahhh...read his prospect report from a website.
High power potential. Lacks defensive skill.

Sounds like a White Sox player to me! Suit him up!

1908<2005
07-12-2013, 10:42 PM
#11 ranked player in Boston's system. Great value for Matt Thronton.

Boondock Saint
07-12-2013, 10:44 PM
I'm just happy I don't have to think about how much money he makes while he's blowing games anymore.

SoxFanCPA
07-12-2013, 10:48 PM
Jacobs will never see the show.

Marqhead
07-12-2013, 10:59 PM
What do you know, he favored football over baseball.

tstrike2000
07-12-2013, 11:01 PM
Don't really know anything about Jacobs. Is this a good trade?

russ99
07-12-2013, 11:02 PM
Jacobs will never see the show.

It's possible. He does have a power bat and LF is where you hide below average defense. 4 years in A ball doesn't help his case. I wonder if his upside is a cheaper version of Viciedo. Similar low OBP, high K minor league numbers.

Seems an underwhelming return, but Thornton has been poor for a while now.

voodoochile
07-12-2013, 11:04 PM
Thornton doesn't have much trade value with his contract. He's overpaid and has been pretty meh this year.

shingo10
07-12-2013, 11:08 PM
And it begins!

Yes!

winstonage
07-12-2013, 11:10 PM
#11 ranked player in Boston's system. Great value for Matt Thronton.

#11 prospect with Boston makes him about #5 with the Sox. Makes the trade look better!

russ99
07-12-2013, 11:15 PM
Got some speed too, stole 30 bases last season.

WhiteSox5187
07-12-2013, 11:17 PM
I really think that this is a salary dump more than anything else.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-12-2013, 11:39 PM
The one hope we have is Jacobs is 22 and may have a future. Thornton is 37 and doesn't.

shingo10
07-12-2013, 11:39 PM
I really think that this is a salary dump more than anything else.

If I'm reading it correctly it sounds like the Sox actually gave up money?

TheVulture
07-12-2013, 11:40 PM
4 years in A ball doesn't help his case.


He played a season of short season A ball, one year at low A, last year at high A, and was just promoted to double A after spending the first half of this year at high A. I don't think that's bad progress for a kid drafted out of high school. He's 22 at AA, that's right on course.

PaleHoser
07-12-2013, 11:42 PM
If I'm reading it correctly it sounds like the Sox actually gave up money?

I read on-line story (don't have the source handy) that the cash was six figures to cover the buyout for his option for next season.

DrCrawdad
07-12-2013, 11:47 PM
The one hope we have is Jacobs is 22 and may have a future. Thornton is 37 and doesn't.

The Sox picked up Matt Thornton for the failed Sox draft pick, Joe Borchard aka Light Tower Power. Thornton turned his career around here. He seemed like he was a well liked teammate. I have not been a fan the last year or so of his work, but I wish him the best in the move to the Other Sox.

Thanks Matt. Best wishes.

California Sox
07-12-2013, 11:54 PM
When trades with Boston came up I said to myself "The one player I hope they don't acquire is Brandon Jacobs." Naturally, I am not happy. How many non-baseball athletes who can't hit are the Sox gonna get before they realize the hit tool is the single most important tool to project major league success?

Bleah

Maybe this is good value for Thornton, I just believe Jacobs will never hit AAA pitching, let alone in the majors.

A. Cavatica
07-13-2013, 12:07 AM
Huh.

We turned Thornton back into Joe Borchard.

Noneck
07-13-2013, 12:25 AM
Some are expecting way too much. The next 3 weeks and maybe longer is salary dump time, plain and simple. You arent going to get silk purses from sows ears.

TDog
07-13-2013, 12:28 AM
Don't really know anything about Jacobs. Is this a good trade?

I don't know what that question means. The White Sox won't have to pay Thornton for the remainder of the year. Fans don't have to endure the agony of seeing him come into games, if that is what they feel. Still, the pitcher who replaces him will probably disappoint more. The White Sox, however, apparently effectively will have to buy out his option after the season as they would have done had they kept him.

It is probably too much to expect Jacobs will help the White Sox as much as Thorton did during his career, and that really shouldn't be the standard. It will likely be years before anyone knows. Some doubt that Jacobs will ever make it to the majors. When you look at deadline deals for prospects, there are more acuired prospects who never make it to the majors than acquired prospects who go on to become stars in the majors.

Maybe the Sox see talent in Jacobs they will be able to develop. Maybe he will become an organizational minor leaguer. I didn't expect the Sox to get more than Jacobs for Thornton, but I didn't expect the Sox to include cash in the deal.

soxfanreggie
07-13-2013, 12:33 AM
Some are expecting way too much. The next 3 weeks and maybe longer is salary dump time, plain and simple. You arent going to get silk purses from sows ears.

I agree that this was a salary dump. People aren't coming out to watch this team, so a chance to get the rest of the $6 million owed off the books seems to be the primary goal. We get a guy back that may never sniff the majors. This guy is a lottery ticket prospect: going to take a lot more for him to get his cup of coffee.

JB98
07-13-2013, 12:35 AM
Some are expecting way too much. The next 3 weeks and maybe longer is salary dump time, plain and simple. You arent going to get silk purses from sows ears.

Agreed. Did people really think Boston or any other team was going to give up an elite prospect for 25 innings of 36-year-old Matt Thornton?

Not gonna happen.

Noneck
07-13-2013, 12:36 AM
The cash back shows that Thornton and his salary for a bag of balls was a deal breaker. I'm sure some will be surprised on what else will happen in the next few weeks.

Fastball23
07-13-2013, 12:48 AM
I hope Jacobs becomes a great player.

DrCrawdad
07-13-2013, 01:06 AM
Agreed. Did people really think Boston or any other team was going to give up an elite prospect for 25 innings of 36-year-old Matt Thornton?

Not gonna happen.

Agreed.

I hope Jacobs becomes a great player.

Me too.

Tragg
07-13-2013, 01:08 AM
Rios is one of the best, if not the best, bat on the market.
Peavy, if he pitches well in a couple of starts, is the number 1 or 2 pitcher on the market.
If it's possible to get quality prospects at midseason anymore, we should get some.

This prospect looks okay. He has the Sox profile - some power,speed, strikes out a lot. Better than some run-down AAA prospect.

blandman
07-13-2013, 01:28 AM
Traded Thornton too late to get anything back, should have traded him before the season when he still had value.

This is a purge move, nothing more nothing less.

rdivaldi
07-13-2013, 01:35 AM
Traded Thornton too late to get anything back, should have traded him before the season when he still had value.

This is a purge move, nothing more nothing less.

Why would Thornton have had more value before the season than now? I can understand that the acquiring team would have had him under contract for a full season; but on the other hand, his salary is pretty high and his 2012 was pretty unimpressive.

Tragg
07-13-2013, 02:00 AM
Traded Thornton too late to get anything back, should have traded him before the season when he still had value.

Nah. You could have acquired a lefty specialist in the offseason in the free agent market for 1/2 that salary.
We know how this goes...no one but Rios and Peavy will bring anything....unless we want to trade one of our young, cost controlled pitchers...and we should certainly listen.

LITTLE NELL
07-13-2013, 06:10 AM
Could not expect to get much for an aging relief pitcher, maybe Jacobs will fool us all.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-13-2013, 07:59 AM
Ex-football player, great athlete, high power potential, low average, low OBP, high K rate.....why does every Sox player have to carry the majority of these attributes? Honestly, I don't get it. I wasn't expecting Bryce Harper in return, but can we not at least start reversing the strategy of only drafting/signing two outcome hitters (ie hit a home run or strike out)?

Mr. Jinx
07-13-2013, 08:04 AM
Some are expecting way too much. The next 3 weeks and maybe longer is salary dump time, plain and simple. You arent going to get silk purses from sows ears.

Why would anyone want a silk purse?

Fastball23
07-13-2013, 08:34 AM
Ex-football player, great athlete, high power potential, low average, low OBP, high K rate.....why does every Sox player have to carry the majority of these attributes? Honestly, I don't get it. I wasn't expecting Bryce Harper in return, but can we not at least start reversing the strategy of only drafting/signing two outcome hitters (ie hit a home run or strike out)?

Thornton sucks!! We're lucky that we got anything for him.

SCCWS
07-13-2013, 09:19 AM
From Boston.com:

Thornton averaged 12 strikeouts per nine innings in 2010, when he was an All-Star. That has dipped steadily since, to 6.8 this season. But he still averages 94-95 mph with his fastball and has hit 97 in recent games.
Red Sox pitching coach Juan Nieves was the bullpen coach of the White Sox for five years and has a lot of familiarity with Thornton.
“There is a certain comfort level there,” Cherington said. “The number one thing is the track record. He is a proven lefthanded relief pitcher and has been effective in the American League for a long time.”

Jacobs, 22, was a 10th round pick in the 2009 draft. The athletic outfielder hit .244 with 11 home runs and 44 RBIs for Single A Salem before a recent promotion to Double A Portland.
"He was the most impactful player available to us,” White Sox general manager Rich Hahn said.
Hahn told Chicago reporters that seven or eight teams were interested in Thornton.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2013/07/red_sox_obtain_lhp_thornton_from_white_sox.html

Over By There
07-13-2013, 09:24 AM
If Jacobs was the #11 prospect in Boston's system, that immediately makes him a top 10 prospect in our system. So on paper, it sems like a good return to me (for an aging lefty specialist that can't close).

However, in reading the brief scouting notes on Jacobs, what I got is: toolsy football player that can't hit. Just what we need more of in our system! Maybe the Sox think that if we acquire enough players of this profile, eventually one of them will turn into Carl Crawford.

All in all, not thrilled with Jacobs but can't really complain about what Hahn did here.

SCCWS
07-13-2013, 09:28 AM
#11 ranked player in Boston's system. Great value for Matt Thronton.

Based on what???? This site has him as their 36th rated prospect.

http://www.soxprospects.com/moreprospects.htm

Chez
07-13-2013, 09:46 AM
I hope the return we got for Matt Thornton recalibrates everyone's expectations on what the return will be when the Sox trade Crain. In general, teams aren't willing to part with top prospects for relief pitchers.

#1swisher
07-13-2013, 09:54 AM
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN (https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) 4h (https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/355987001759121408)

CWS sent out an e-mail to a bunch of teams saying they were looking to move Thornton, who is making $5.5 million.
(http://t.co/Codj4gnNfN)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-trade-20130712,0,2037347.story … (http://t.co/Codj4gnNfN)

#1swisher
07-13-2013, 10:05 AM
Chicago White Sox ‏@whitesox (https://twitter.com/whitesox) 10h (https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/355890576689872896)
Hahn on Thornton: "I told him we appreciate everything he has done for the organization on and off the field."

Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin) 10h (https://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/355891760620253185)

Thornton: "I wish all my White Sox teammates the best, except when they play the Red Sox."

#1swisher
07-13-2013, 10:10 AM
Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal) 10h (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/355894730111979520)

Full story on #RedSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23RedSox&src=hash)’s acquisition of Thornton from #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash): http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/boston-red-sox-acquire-matt-thornton-from-chicago-white-sox-for-brandon-jacobs-071213 … (http://t.co/mLZHEJZjNT)

hawkjt
07-13-2013, 10:14 AM
Thornton has been a disaster this year.
This is a salary dump,pure and simple.
Jacobs is a roll of the dice,but really folks...when was the last time you were happy to see Matt enter the game in a close contest?

Thankfully,he had the 1-2-3 inning vs the Tigers on Thursday...his best outing of the year.

#1swisher
07-13-2013, 10:20 AM
The White Sox included a cash payment of $750,000. Thornton is owed about $3.5 million — the balance of his $3.5 million salary this season, and a $1 million buyout of his $6 million option.

Tragg
07-13-2013, 10:35 AM
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN (https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN) 4h (https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/355987001759121408)

CWS sent out an e-mail to a bunch of teams saying they were looking to move Thornton, who is making $5.5 million.
(http://t.co/Codj4gnNfN)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-trade-20130712,0,2037347.story … (http://t.co/Codj4gnNfN)
So much for the stealth "cards close to the vest" approach.
And it does suggest salary dumping time...hope it doesn't go past Thornton.

DSpivack
07-13-2013, 10:35 AM
I hope the return we got for Matt Thornton recalibrates everyone's expectations on what the return will be when the Sox trade Crain. In general, teams aren't willing to part with top prospects for relief pitchers.

Thornton can't get righties out anymore. Crain has been maybe the best reliever in baseball this season.

palehosepub
07-13-2013, 10:36 AM
Nah. You could have acquired a lefty specialist in the offseason in the free agent market for 1/2 that salary.
We know how this goes...no one but Rios and Peavy will bring anything....unless we want to trade one of our young, cost controlled pitchers...and we should certainly listen.

Assuming Crain is healthy they will get a much better prospect that Jacobs

blandman
07-13-2013, 11:02 AM
Based on what???? This site has him as their 36th rated prospect.

http://www.soxprospects.com/moreprospects.htm

BA, but rating doesn't matter. His scouting reports suggest he'll be a fifth outfielder if he makes the show at all.

Gotta love the optimism on by Hahn though.

I wish the team wouldn't flat our lie. You'd think they'd learn after Jeff Marquez that picking up garbage and calling it an asset just serves to piss off the core fan base. If they don't want to be honest, they should just keep quiet.

Nah. You could have acquired a lefty specialist in the offseason in the free agent market for 1/2 that salary.
We know how this goes...no one but Rios and Peavy will bring anything....unless we want to trade one of our young, cost controlled pitchers...and we should certainly listen.

Unless he starts pitching, I'd assume similar offers for Peavy. He'll probably not get dealt until next year (or possibly in a waiver deal).

cards press box
07-13-2013, 11:12 AM
The one hope we have is Jacobs is 22 and may have a future. Thornton is 37 and doesn't.

Brandon Jacobs may well have a future. In 2012, Baseball Prospectus listed Jacobs as the #2 prospect in the Red Sox system. Jacobs had left hamate bone fracture in 2012 and, perhaps, that slowed his development and accounts for outlets such as Baseball America listing him as the #11 prospect in the Red Sox system in 2013. This article (http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2013/07/red_sox_had_to_part_with_brand.html) from the Springfield Republican says that Jacobs has had a recent uptick in his play that merited a promotion to AA Portland.

Jacobs does seem to strike out a lot, it's true. But, as the great Jim Palmer observed, you never know when or if a prospect in baseball finally figures it out. Getting an interesting prospect for Matt Thornton at this stage of Thornton's career is fine.

Hitmen77
07-13-2013, 11:46 AM
Some are expecting way too much. The next 3 weeks and maybe longer is salary dump time, plain and simple. You arent going to get silk purses from sows ears.

Yep, this is pretty much a salary dump. I don't have a problem with that either, but I agree we're probably in for more disappointment over the next 3 weeks as the Sox get "not much" for the players they trade away.

Reading these descriptions of Jacobs makes it sound like he'll fit right in the Sox organization.

Tragg
07-13-2013, 11:48 AM
Unless he starts pitching, I'd assume similar offers for Peavy. He'll probably not get dealt until next year (or possibly in a waiver deal).

Sure, if he's not pitching. So just hold him til next year, if that's the case. There was no point in holding Thornton until next year; now we could have held him for a few weeks, which, plus the emails, suggests to me we were salary dumping him. But it would be an outrage to salary dump Peavy.

I think Jacobs is a decent pickup anyway. He shares the profile of a lot of our recent high round draft choices, he's young, he's not washed out and he has identifiable baseball skills. He may not amount to anything, but he isn't a Zack Stewart either.

Chez
07-13-2013, 11:54 AM
Thornton can't get righties out anymore. Crain has been maybe the best reliever in baseball this season.

Crain is on the DL and still complaining of shoulder pain. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see the Sox getting a haul as large as many here are expecting. Look at how little the Sox got for Sergio Santos who, when dealt to Toronto, was coming off a great season, was healthy at the time and had just signed a team friendly extension.

Tragg
07-13-2013, 11:58 AM
Crain is on the DL and still complaining of shoulder pain. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see the Sox getting a haul as large as many here are expecting. Look at how little the Sox got for Sergio Santos who, when dealt to Toronto, was coming off a great season, was healthy at the time and had just signed a team friendly extension.
Other teams have gotten more than that in trades.
If we go by our trades of the last 4 years, we aren't going to get much of anything for any of our players.
We gave up 2 high end pitching prospects (one ML ready, one not) for 1.5 years of Edwin Jackson and his 5+ Arizona ERA. I expect similar for Peavy, if he gets a couple of starts under his belt.

A. Cavatica
07-13-2013, 12:07 PM
So the Sox unloaded Thornton and most of his salary for a guy they might have made a high draft pick, only he's had several years of seasoning in the minors already. That's exactly what they should have done -- try to find someone with a chance at being an impact player 3-4 years from now -- except their track record in evaluating draftees is awful, so chances are he'll amount to nothing.

SoxSpeed22
07-13-2013, 12:09 PM
The White Sox didn't really have a whole lot of leverage, so I don't mind Hahn rolling the dice on a 23 year old. He is still trying to get his swing back after breaking his Hamate bone in his wrist. Rankings are very subjective and fluid, so I don't want to take too much stock into those.

blandman
07-13-2013, 12:15 PM
So the Sox unloaded Thornton and most of his salary for a guy they might have made a high draft pick, only he's had several years of seasoning in the minors already. That's exactly what they should have done -- try to find someone with a chance at being an impact player 3-4 years from now -- except their track record in evaluating draftees is awful, so chances are he'll amount to nothing.

We don't have 3-4 years unless we're going to put him on our 40 man roster. I believe he's already rule five eligible this December. How long you wanna keep him on the 40 man?

SoxSpeed22
07-13-2013, 12:28 PM
We don't have 3-4 years unless we're going to put him on our 40 man roster. I believe he's already rule five eligible this December. How long you wanna keep him on the 40 man?You are correct, anyone 23 and over in the minors is rule 5 eligible, but I doubt anyone will swipe him in the rule 5 draft, since he really isn't anywhere near Major League ready.
Considering that this (http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/roster/_/name/chw/chicago-white-sox) is what our 40 man roster looks like (have a puke bag ready), I don't think keeping him there will be a problem, if he makes progress this year.

SCCWS
07-13-2013, 12:40 PM
Different take on the trade from Boston writer




http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2013/07/red_sox_had_to_part_with_brand.html

blandman
07-13-2013, 01:39 PM
You are correct, anyone 23 and over in the minors is rule 5 eligible, but I doubt anyone will swipe him in the rule 5 draft, since he really isn't anywhere near Major League ready.
Considering that this (http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/roster/_/name/chw/chicago-white-sox) is what our 40 man roster looks like (have a puke bag ready), I don't think keeping him there will be a problem, if he makes progress this year.

Yes, but 3-4 years? At some point, you'd hope we'd have legitimate prospects taking up the extra 15 slots. Not guys that spent five years hitting .250 in low minor league ball with little speed or defensive capability. Yeah, this guy had promise. Five years ago. His injury didn't set him back, he's been pretty awful overall.

thomas35forever
07-13-2013, 01:50 PM
Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think Jacobs could be a dark horse eventually. As for Thornton, well, it would be nice to see him get a ring. Hate that it has to be with Boston though.

Fastball23
07-13-2013, 01:57 PM
Nick Cafardo ‏@nickcafardo 1m (https://twitter.com/nickcafardo/status/356109151136530432)
The ChiSox got a very athletic player in OF Brandon Jacobs for 36-year-old Matt Thornton. He's one of Dwight Evans' favorite young players.

Beginning to like this trade a lot more.. Evans was an amazing player.

JB98
07-13-2013, 01:57 PM
Sure, if he's not pitching. So just hold him til next year, if that's the case. There was no point in holding Thornton until next year; now we could have held him for a few weeks, which, plus the emails, suggests to me we were salary dumping him. But it would be an outrage to salary dump Peavy.

I think Jacobs is a decent pickup anyway. He shares the profile of a lot of our recent high round draft choices, he's young, he's not washed out and he has identifiable baseball skills. He may not amount to anything, but he isn't a Zack Stewart either.

It would. I don't have a problem with them dumping Thornton's salary because he is overpaid. At this point in his career, Thornton is a situational pitcher, but he's being paid like a closer -- which he never was even in his prime. Nothing wrong with getting that contract outta here.

Peavy, in contrast, is a No. 2 starter with a No. 2 starter's contract. He's making some bucks, sure, but he produces when he's on the field. The injury complicates matters, but at least it's not an arm injury. If Hahn can't get real value for Peavy now, he should hold him until the offseason. If Peavy comes back healthy and throws well the second half, trade him in December.

TomBradley72
07-13-2013, 02:54 PM
I'm OK with this trade- between Thornton's age, contract and his performance this year- anything of value is acceptable to me.

Our overall outfield talent in the minors is a disaster- so sounds like we've improved the situation by addinng this guy. To be 22 and spend most of the season in A ball isn't a good sign- but since our minor league system is in such poor shape- this is still an improvement.

blandman
07-13-2013, 03:07 PM
It would. I don't have a problem with them dumping Thornton's salary because he is overpaid. At this point in his career, Thornton is a situational pitcher, but he's being paid like a closer -- which he never was even in his prime. Nothing wrong with getting that contract outta here.

Peavy, in contrast, is a No. 2 starter with a No. 2 starter's contract. He's making some bucks, sure, but he produces when he's on the field. The injury complicates matters, but at least it's not an arm injury. If Hahn can't get real value for Peavy now, he should hold him until the offseason. If Peavy comes back healthy and throws well the second half, trade him in December.

The problem with this analysis, and pretty much what everyone thinks is fair value for Peavy, is that while he SHOULD give you no. 2 starter value, he most certainly will not. The sad truth is that in all the years Peavy's been here, he's only pitched that way last year. Even before he was injured this year, he was pitching like a 3-4 guy. What's his ERA? Mid fours? Opponents hitting like .250 off of him? That's not very good. We needed Peavy healthy and pitching like he's got the talent to. Recent history is not in our favor.

JB98
07-13-2013, 03:46 PM
The problem with this analysis, and pretty much what everyone thinks is fair value for Peavy, is that while he SHOULD give you no. 2 starter value, he most certainly will not. The sad truth is that in all the years Peavy's been here, he's only pitched that way last year. Even before he was injured this year, he was pitching like a 3-4 guy. What's his ERA? Mid fours? Opponents hitting like .250 off of him? That's not very good. We needed Peavy healthy and pitching like he's got the talent to. Recent history is not in our favor.

The problem with this analysis is that you are cherry-picking stats.

Through his first nine starts this year, Peavy was 6-2 with a 2.97 ERA. Is that not No. 2 starter material? I believe it is.

His last two starts, during which he went to the mound injured, he was 0-2 with an 8.53 ERA. Twelve of the 32 earned runs he's allowed this year were in his last two starts before he went on the disabled list. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Peavy pitched well all of last season and his first nine starts of this year before he got hurt. Then, he had two awful outings.

Peavy has 66 Ks in 67 IP this year. He's a top-of-the-rotation starter who still misses bats regularly.

I completely disagree with you. He has been pitching like a No. 2 starter for quite some time when healthy. The only question mark with Jake is his health. His performance on the mound is hardly an issue.

Mr. Jinx
07-13-2013, 04:06 PM
The problem with this analysis is that you are cherry-picking stats.

Through his first nine starts this year, Peavy was 6-2 with a 2.97 ERA. Is that not No. 2 starter material? I believe it is.

His last two starts, during which he went to the mound injured, he was 0-2 with an 8.53 ERA. Twelve of the 32 earned runs he's allowed this year were in his last two starts before he went on the disabled list. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Peavy pitched well all of last season and his first nine starts of this year before he got hurt. Then, he had two awful outings.

Peavy has 66 Ks in 67 IP this year. He's a top-of-the-rotation starter who still misses bats regularly.

I completely disagree with you. He has been pitching like a No. 2 starter for quite some time when healthy. The only question mark with Jake is his health. His performance on the mound is hardly an issue.

That's the issue though. He hasn't shown anything that with the Sox that suggests he can stay healthy for the rest of this contract. He has been healthy all season once in the past 5 years. Other teams know that too and will bid accordingly.

RCWHITESOX
07-13-2013, 05:05 PM
The problem with this analysis is that you are cherry-picking stats.

Through his first nine starts this year, Peavy was 6-2 with a 2.97 ERA. Is that not No. 2 starter material? I believe it is.

His last two starts, during which he went to the mound injured, he was 0-2 with an 8.53 ERA. Twelve of the 32 earned runs he's allowed this year were in his last two starts before he went on the disabled list. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Peavy pitched well all of last season and his first nine starts of this year before he got hurt. Then, he had two awful outings.

Peavy has 66 Ks in 67 IP this year. He's a top-of-the-rotation starter who still misses bats regularly.

I completely disagree with you. He has been pitching like a No. 2 starter for quite some time when healthy. The only question mark with Jake is his health. His performance on the mound is hardly an issue.

Amen. It is so good to hear and see positive feedback. The Sox traded Thornton and got much more for him at this stage of his career than I thought they would. Peavy on a lot of teams would be a No 1 pitcher and is a fierce competeter; which I'm sure a lot of teams already know. If they trade him it is ludacris to think Hahn would not get fair value.

slavko
07-13-2013, 06:23 PM
Can't argue with finding a taker for a situational lefty who's being paid as a closer. Donnie Veal can LOOGY in his place. Good business decision (no objection to calling it a salary dump) and got a middling prospect in the bargain.

No longer dreading him gas-canning the 7th or 8th.

I'd do it every day and twice on Sunday.

A. Cavatica
07-13-2013, 07:45 PM
Amen. It is so good to hear and see positive feedback. The Sox traded Thornton and got much more for him at this stage of his career than I thought they would. Peavy on a lot of teams would be a No 1 pitcher and is a fierce competeter; which I'm sure a lot of teams already know. If they trade him it is ludacris to think Hahn would not get fair value.

Unless you meant to compare him to the rapper, I think the word you were looking for is "ludicrous".

Tragg
07-13-2013, 08:30 PM
I read somewhere today that Jacobs is Rule 5 eligible next year. I didn't realize that. That's a problem.

Mr. Jinx
07-13-2013, 08:38 PM
I read somewhere today that Jacobs is Rule 5 eligible next year. I didn't realize that. That's a problem.

Not really. This was a straight salary dump. The guy they got back won't ever sniff the majors.

The Immigrant
07-13-2013, 08:45 PM
I read somewhere today that Jacobs is Rule 5 eligible next year. I didn't realize that. That's a problem.

Not if he's on the 40 man roster. There should be plenty of room once the fire sale is done.

Tragg
07-13-2013, 08:57 PM
Not if he's on the 40 man roster. There should be plenty of room once the fire sale is done.

Yea, but you can't put raw prospects on the 40 man. You can, but it's not the best use. On the other hand, as you said, there would be plenty of room.

The guy is actually hitting better as of late. He's a boom/bust, but he has some skills.

JB98
07-13-2013, 09:42 PM
That's the issue though. He hasn't shown anything that with the Sox that suggests he can stay healthy for the rest of this contract. He has been healthy all season once in the past 5 years. Other teams know that too and will bid accordingly.

If teams aren't going to offer the Sox a top prospect for Peavy, then they can stick it. The Sox can simply hold on to Peavy and let him finish out his contract then. Even if next year is a transitional year, there will still be 162 big-league games played, and somebody has to pitch.

Peavy is too good a pitcher to just give away. There's nothing that says he must be traded.

blandman
07-13-2013, 09:59 PM
If teams aren't going to offer the Sox a top prospect for Peavy, then they can stick it. The Sox can simply hold on to Peavy and let him finish out his contract then. Even if next year is a transitional year, there will still be 162 big-league games played, and somebody has to pitch.

Peavy is too good a pitcher to just give away. There's nothing that says he must be traded.

Other teams would call that bet, most likely. The best thing that could happen is Peavy comes back this month and doesn't get traded, but rather gets to pitch into August and pitches well, then gets claimed by a team with good prospects that is desperate to make a deal. It's not a likely scenerio, but plausable. After the season, you're looking at a year of a guy that's been hurt for significant time 4 of 5 years. I know what you think he's worth and why, but I think emotions are a part of that. When he's on, he's phenomenal. But this isn't a case where there's a hitch that a team thinks it can correct. Whether or not he's that Peavy for the next team is a total crapshoot.

Mr. Jinx
07-13-2013, 10:07 PM
If teams aren't going to offer the Sox a top prospect for Peavy, then they can stick it. The Sox can simply hold on to Peavy and let him finish out his contract then. Even if next year is a transitional year, there will still be 162 big-league games played, and somebody has to pitch.

Peavy is too good a pitcher to just give away. There's nothing that says he must be traded.

Oh yeah, I completely agree with you. If the Sox don't get anything of value I'm all for keeping him then. I just think that he will be undervalued due to his injuries that he has had year after year.

gosox41
07-14-2013, 12:37 AM
Ahhh...read his prospect report from a website.
High power potential. Lacks defensive skill.

Sounds like a White Sox player to me! Suit him up!

So much for things changing under Hahn. Only one trade, but still.

And I read that he passed up on football to play baseball. How many of these guys do we need to figure out that in most cases the 2 sport athletes who go to baseball just don't develop?

Bob

TomBradley72
07-14-2013, 11:53 AM
Peavy is NOT a #2 pitcher on a contender- he's barely over .500 in 4 seasons in the AL with a 4.00+ ERA- CAN be very effective in short stretches when he's healthy- but I think a contender would view him as #3 at best.

He was 4-7, 4.00 ERA in the 2nd half last year- if he can prove he's healthy- his value will be highest at this trading deadline- vs. holding on to him for next year.

With Sale, Santiago, Quintana, Danks, E. Johnson (AAA)- I think we can have solid rotation without him- so if we can get decent value- I say go for it.

soxfanreggie
07-14-2013, 12:16 PM
Peavy is NOT a #2 pitcher on a contender- he's barely over .500 in 4 seasons in the AL with a 4.00+ ERA- CAN be very effective in short stretches when he's healthy- but I think a contender would view him as #3 at best.

He was 4-7, 4.00 ERA in the 2nd half last year- if he can prove he's healthy- his value will be highest at this trading deadline- vs. holding on to him for next year.

With Sale, Santiago, Quintana, Danks, E. Johnson (AAA)- I think we can have solid rotation without him- so if we can get decent value- I say go for it.

I agree. I'd rather get something for him and save the $$$ than keep him if we don't surround him with any talent next year. I'm sure we can get something decent for him, but it probably isn't going to be a "great" prospect. Even if he comes back throwing great, teams would feel it's just a matter of time until he's on the DL again.

dickallen15
07-14-2013, 12:26 PM
Why are all Sox message boards obsessed with "saving money". With the new rules there is a cap on what you can give draft picks and foreign free agents, and going over carries big penalties for the future. The Sox aren't going to sign the huge free agents, since A. They never do and B. Just about every one that gets close to or 9 figures on the free market seems to be dead weight pretty quickly. Hahn said they had money to ADD this season, so they aren't going to be going broke, and they have money coming off the books and another $25 million from the national TV contract to play with next year. Any move now that includes players on the team that are signed for next year should be focused on talent coming back, not financial savings.

DSpivack
07-14-2013, 12:46 PM
Why are all Sox message boards obsessed with "saving money". With the new rules there is a cap on what you can give draft picks and foreign free agents, and going over carries big penalties for the future. The Sox aren't going to sign the huge free agents, since A. They never do and B. Just about every one that gets close to or 9 figures on the free market seems to be dead weight pretty quickly. Hahn said they had money to ADD this season, so they aren't going to be going broke, and they have money coming off the books and another $25 million from the national TV contract to play with next year. Any move now that includes players on the team that are signed for next year should be focused on talent coming back, not financial savings.

To me it just depends on the deal. Thornton was not worth $6 million/year at this point, so moving his contract makes sense. I think the same is true of Dunn and Ramirez, although moving their contracts would not be easy. But with other players, like Peavy, Crain and others, you are correct; the goal should be in getting talent back in return.

Tragg
07-14-2013, 01:01 PM
Peavy's WHIP was 1.1 last year and 1.16 this year; that's number 2 starter territory. Teams, at least theoretically, should pay a premium in desperate times, which, if they if they are if in a pennant race and need a good starter. Plus, the supply of available starting pitchers is extremely thin.
The Rangers #2 starter, Derrick Holland has never had a WHIP below 1.2
And, again, if nothing materializes, keep him for next year.
As DickAllen points, money shouldn't be anywhere close to a major concern.
He's our best trading chit, presuming he gets healthy. He's better than most of the GOOD pitchers on contenders. So is Crain, but not as valuable as he's a reliever. Others, like Rios, aren't going to be better than the good hitters on contenders...they will be better than a hole the contender might have, but they won't pay that much just to plug a hole.

TheVulture
07-14-2013, 01:21 PM
Based on what???? This site has him as their 36th rated prospect.

http://www.soxprospects.com/moreprospects.htm

Sickels had him rated 13th for 2013 at C+ rating. This kid may not be an elite prospect, but it seems like he should at least have a chance to make the big leagues. He seems to have a good power/speed combo, I don't know how any could reasonably expect more for Thornton or how this could be construed as a pure salary dump. He's the kind of prospect you need to fill up on and hope a couple pan out.

37 extra base hits in 343 PA this year, seems promising to me.

TDog
07-14-2013, 01:56 PM
Why are all Sox message boards obsessed with "saving money". ...

I really don't understand the obsession either, especially in the case of Thornton. Saving money is something management can do to improve this year's bottom line, but it does nothing to improve the team. They didn't save future money with Thornton because they sent the Red Sox what hanging on to Thornton would have cost them in the future.

But I remember reading a Chicago Tribune game story about a loss in 1970 in which the reporter (in the lack of objectivity that only sports journalists are allowed to get away with), questioned Carlos May's hustle by not breaking on a 3-2, 2-out pitch on which Gail Hopkins was called out on strikes, despite being paid $20,000 a year, something I aspired to at age 13 and something the reporter was probably looking up at. Resentment over underperforming players' salaries predated free agency, when an abstract argument could be made for money to spend being equivalent to talent in your system.

SI1020
07-14-2013, 02:18 PM
I really don't understand the obsession either, especially in the case of Thornton. Saving money is something management can do to improve this year's bottom line, but it does nothing to improve the team. They didn't save future money with Thornton because they sent the Red Sox what hanging on to Thornton would have cost them in the future.

But I remember reading a Chicago Tribune game story about a loss in 1970 in which the reporter (in the lack of objectivity that only sports journalists are allowed to get away with), questioned Carlos May's hustle by not breaking on a 3-2, 2-out pitch on which Gail Hopkins was called out on strikes, despite being paid $20,000 a year, something I aspired to at age 13 and something the reporter was probably looking up at. Resentment over underperforming players' salaries predated free agency, when an abstract argument could be made for money to spend being equivalent to talent in your system. That's roughly 120K a year in today's currency.

TDog
07-14-2013, 03:29 PM
That's roughly 120K a year in today's currency.

It depends on what inflation formula you use to make the adjustment, but that isn't the point. Still I doubt that fans would complain about Thornton's salary if the Sox were paying him substantially less than the current major league minimum.

The minimum salary for a major leaguer in 1970 was $13,500. The highest paid player on the White Sox was Aparicio making $40,000. There was no free agency, at least not on players' terms. Saving money didn't translate to signing a big free agent contract in the off-season. Aparicio couldn't even go to arbitration with his .313 batting average and Gold Glove. If he held out, he just wouldn't be paid while the White Sox deprived of his talents. (As it turned out, he was traded to the Red Sox in the off-season after the White Sox gave him a $20,000 raise.)

Salaries should have been irrelevant to fans. But when I went to the games before free agency, before the big money, fans would complain about salaries. I heard people complain after Hopkins dropped two foul pop-ups in a game that he dropped them using a $60 glove.

Getting rid of Thornton's salary for the remainder of the season will do nothing to improve the Sox because it doesn't save them money in the future. The trade will do nothing to improve the Sox if Jacobs doesn't develop into a productive major leaguer. The pitchers who replace Thornton in his role on the team will not be as dependable as he was, even as inconsistent as he was.

But fans will feel better if someone making so much money for so little production is gone. It has always been that way, as irrelevant as it is.

Iron Dragon2
07-14-2013, 03:50 PM
I like this trade and I don't really care what they get in return. Let the purge continue!

SCCWS
07-14-2013, 04:02 PM
Sickels had him rated 13th for 2013 at C+ rating. This kid may not be an elite prospect, but it seems like he should at least have a chance to make the big leagues. He seems to have a good power/speed combo, I don't know how any could reasonably expect more for Thornton or how this could be construed as a pure salary dump. He's the kind of prospect you need to fill up on and hope a couple pan out.

37 extra base hits in 343 PA this year, seems promising to me.

Sickels, like many of these ratings, are pretty dated and subjective. The #12 propect for Boston is Iglesias who is hitting .375 in 52 games. Sickels said:

" His glove is excellent but his bat is so bad that it may be tough to keep him in the lineup anyway

DSpivack
07-14-2013, 04:47 PM
Sickels, like many of these ratings, are pretty dated and subjective. The #12 propect for Boston is Iglesias who is hitting .375 in 52 games. Sickels said:

" His glove is excellent but his bat is so bad that it may be tough to keep him in the lineup anyway

I'm guessing his hot start this season is unsustainable.

His minor league numbers were pretty bad:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=iglesi001jos

SCCWS
07-14-2013, 07:56 PM
I'm guessing his hot start this season is unsustainable.

His minor league numbers were pretty bad:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=iglesi001jos


Thornton lost his Boston debut giving up 2 walks and a flare to right.

A. Cavatica
07-14-2013, 08:31 PM
Thornton lost his Boston debut giving up 2 walks and a flare to right.

If we could trade one of our players to each of the teams ahead of us, we could still win this thing...

JB98
07-14-2013, 11:24 PM
Other teams would call that bet, most likely. The best thing that could happen is Peavy comes back this month and doesn't get traded, but rather gets to pitch into August and pitches well, then gets claimed by a team with good prospects that is desperate to make a deal. It's not a likely scenerio, but plausable. After the season, you're looking at a year of a guy that's been hurt for significant time 4 of 5 years. I know what you think he's worth and why, but I think emotions are a part of that. When he's on, he's phenomenal. But this isn't a case where there's a hitch that a team thinks it can correct. Whether or not he's that Peavy for the next team is a total crapshoot.

You think emotion is part of my analysis? LOL.

JB98
07-14-2013, 11:28 PM
Peavy's WHIP was 1.1 last year and 1.16 this year; that's number 2 starter territory. Teams, at least theoretically, should pay a premium in desperate times, which, if they if they are if in a pennant race and need a good starter. Plus, the supply of available starting pitchers is extremely thin.
The Rangers #2 starter, Derrick Holland has never had a WHIP below 1.2
And, again, if nothing materializes, keep him for next year.
As DickAllen points, money shouldn't be anywhere close to a major concern.
He's our best trading chit, presuming he gets healthy. He's better than most of the GOOD pitchers on contenders. So is Crain, but not as valuable as he's a reliever. Others, like Rios, aren't going to be better than the good hitters on contenders...they will be better than a hole the contender might have, but they won't pay that much just to plug a hole.

You couldn't be more right about Peavy. Ever since the start of 2012, he's been a top-of-the-rotation starter when healthy. I'm completely baffled that people think otherwise. I guess it's just the usual self-loathing from Sox fans. I can't think of any other explanation for it. The numbers don't lie.

TheVulture
07-15-2013, 10:47 AM
If we could trade one of our players to each of the teams ahead of us, we could still win this thing...


:rolling: