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View Full Version : *Official* 7/7 We Hate This Team Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
07-07-2013, 03:06 PM
Bears training camp can't open soon enough.

Fastball23
07-07-2013, 03:07 PM
When does the firesale start?

LITTLE NELL
07-07-2013, 03:08 PM
4 runs in 3 games, not going to win too many series' doing that.

ChiSoxGal85
07-07-2013, 03:10 PM
Other teams must salivate when they see the White Sox on their schedule this season.

Congrats to Josh Phegley on his first major league home run.

Fastball23
07-07-2013, 03:11 PM
We will probably lose the rest of the games this week...

24thStFan
07-07-2013, 03:15 PM
When does the fire sale start?

Great question. Maybe they're waiting for the All Star break.

Dick Allen
07-07-2013, 03:17 PM
Boooooooooooooooo.

Bobby Thigpen
07-07-2013, 03:21 PM
When does the firesale start?
In order to have a firesale, don't you need to have something someone would want?

Fastball23
07-07-2013, 03:24 PM
In order to have a firesale, don't you need to have something someone would want?

I'm sure other teams would want Beckham, Sale, Danks, Rios, Crain, Alexei, and Peavy.

Have my fingers crossed that some teams are willing to take Dunn, DeAza, Thornton, Keppinger and Konerko.

tstrike2000
07-07-2013, 03:28 PM
Now may be a good time to trade Rios. He's starting to resemble a little bit of the listless Rios we saw in 2011. He's hitting around .250 with 1 HR over the last five weeks. Aside from that, probably the worst hitting Sox team since I became a fan as a kid in '81.

Corlose 15
07-07-2013, 03:31 PM
boooooooooooooooo.7584

Chez
07-07-2013, 03:38 PM
Danks has pitched well the last three starts and Beckham looks good at the plate. That is all.

SouthSideMike
07-07-2013, 03:45 PM
What a precipitously steep tailspin this season has been. You go from bored to angry to just plain laughing at the spectacle. It's very sad when most fans are still watching the team only for some twisted comedic value, whether it be on the field or from the broadcast booth.

I'm a younger guy at 26, so I don't remember any of the bad teams from the 70s and 80s. I had considered the 07 season to be the ultimate low point in my life as a White Sox fan. Until this season rolled around, that is.

I hope Crain can come back healthy for a couple starts and showcase himself. I'd be looking hard to see if teams will bite on Rios too. No one other than Sale should be considered safe from being traded. I would trade a guy like Dunn for prospects even if you have to eat the salary to sweeten the deal.

Bobby Thigpen
07-07-2013, 03:56 PM
I'm sure other teams would want Beckham, Sale, Danks, Rios, Crain, Alexei, and Peavy.

Have my fingers crossed that some teams are willing to take Dunn, DeAza, Thornton, Keppinger and Konerko.
For free perhaps, but I don't know that anyone wants to take on Rios, Danks, Alexei and Dunn unless the Sox eat a large portion of salary. I don't think what they offer production wise, currently, is equal to the price in money teams would owe these guys down a stretch run.

Peavy, Crain, Thornton and Keppinger may be you most easily traded pieces. Beckham and especially Sale would garner interest, but there's really no guarantee that what you'll get back, especially with Sale, will even be remotely close to as good as they are now, so why trade them?

SoxSpeed22
07-07-2013, 04:15 PM
Danks has been pretty encouraging. I figured he would be a lot more up and down, but he has shown pretty good command of his secondary pitches. Whenever Rick wants to, he can go ahead and sell some pieces and hope Crain gets back at a reasonable time.

Soxman219
07-07-2013, 04:21 PM
I'm young (23), so I don't remember many bad Sox teams. This one right here is the worst Sox team I have ever seen. No one up to bat has a plan, no one on this team can field properly, and the pitching has NO offensive help AT ALL. I never thought I'd see a Sox team have 51 losses before the all-star break. I don't know what else to say what has already been said about this team. What a mess.:mad:

Tragg
07-07-2013, 04:30 PM
This must be the most inept team at stealing bases in major league history.
If you can't do it, don't try.

Hunker down
07-07-2013, 04:33 PM
To quote the Grinch:

Stink, Stank, Stunk

LITTLE NELL
07-07-2013, 04:33 PM
I'm young (23), so I don't remember many bad Sox teams. This one right here is the worst Sox team I have ever seen. No one up to bat has a plan, no one on this team can field properly, and the pitching has NO offensive help AT ALL. I never thought I'd see a Sox team have 51 losses before the all-star break. I don't know what else to say what has already been said about this team. What a mess.:mad:

On paper they should be no worse than a .500 team but we all know what they say about hitting, it's contagious. The problem is the opposite, I don't know what word to describe our hitting. One problem is we just don't work the count, perfect example today, not one walk.

Red Barchetta
07-07-2013, 04:46 PM
I blame our 15-31 road record on the new road pants. Bring back the tuxedo stripe! :tongue:

wilburaga
07-07-2013, 05:01 PM
I'm not young (61). That lineup today was one of the worst I've ever seen. Maybe we should bring back Jerry Owens and Andy Gonzalez to complete the folly.

white sox bill
07-07-2013, 05:02 PM
I dont know what Rick Haun did for work before joining the Sox but I'm guessing he wish he had that job back. Hes gotta be drinking right now....

SCCWS
07-07-2013, 05:27 PM
I dont know what Rick Haun did for work before joining the Sox but I'm guessing he wish he had that job back. Hes gotta be drinking right now....

Grief counselor.

soxfanreggie
07-07-2013, 05:32 PM
I dont know what Rick Haun did for work before joining the Sox but I'm guessing he wish he had that job back. Hes gotta be drinking right now....

He might be making too much money to do that; however, he may be wondering if he should have taken a job as a GM elsewhere some days. We'll see what he can do as we hopefully shed players for prospects and $$$ savings.

Over By There
07-07-2013, 05:39 PM
I'm not young (61). That lineup today was one of the worst I've ever seen. Maybe we should bring back Jerry Owens and Andy Gonzalez to complete the folly.

Funny you mention Andy Gonzalez. I was at the game in Texas in '07 where he committed three errors, and until this season, that's about as low as I've been as a Sox fan.

FielderJones
07-07-2013, 05:48 PM
One problem is we just don't work the count, perfect example today, not one walk.

Alexei worked the count leading off the game today. 0-1, 0-2, ground-out. It's hard to work the count if the pitcher won't cooperate and continues to throw strikes.

blandman
07-07-2013, 06:50 PM
On paper they should be no worse than a .500 team

As I said before the season, the only people thinking that were glassy eyed-Sox fans, local publications, and the organization. The most optimistic national publications had us below .500, many significantly so. A lot of us on this board stated over and over there was very little chance this team would hit .500 as constructed. Yes, this is the bottomed out version very few thought coming (though some of us did say 100 losses was possible), but that's only a function of the Twins being good enough to pass us (and beat up on us a bit). Whether we lose 100 or just 90, the fact of the matter is there wasn't a plane of existance where .500 was a realistic outcome for this team as assembled. It's time to let go of that thought. This isn't the season that got derailed. The guys on our team are not having career bad seasons. They are having seasons that befit them. This was a bad team to start. There probably aren't a dozen guys on the whole squad that have a role on a contending team. If it wasn't obvious to you before the season, it should be very clear now. Let it go already.

Over By There
07-07-2013, 06:55 PM
As I said before the season...

Congratulations.

ChiSoxGal85
07-07-2013, 07:05 PM
I just hope Josh Phegley doesn't get assimilated by the rest of this pathetic lineup.

I admit (and make no apologies for) being one of those "glassy-eyed Sox fans". It's far better for my health and the people around me to be an optimist.

That said, this season sucks.

LITTLE NELL
07-07-2013, 07:07 PM
As I said before the season, the only people thinking that were glassy eyed-Sox fans, local publications, and the organization. The most optimistic national publications had us below .500, many significantly so. A lot of us on this board stated over and over there was very little chance this team would hit .500 as constructed. Yes, this is the bottomed out version very few thought coming (though some of us did say 100 losses was possible), but that's only a function of the Twins being good enough to pass us (and beat up on us a bit). Whether we lose 100 or just 90, the fact of the matter is there wasn't a plane of existance where .500 was a realistic outcome for this team as assembled. It's time to let go of that thought. This isn't the season that got derailed. The guys on our team are not having career bad seasons. They are having seasons that befit them. This was a bad team to start. There probably aren't a dozen guys on the whole squad that have a role on a contending team. If it wasn't obvious to you before the season, it should be very clear now. Let it go already.

I thought our pitching would be good enough and along with some sort of an offense, we would be .500. Our pitching has been good enough but the hitting is as we all know is another story, never did I think it could be this bad. Of course we have to add the horrible defense, how could the same team go from the fewest errors to almost the most. I knew that by picking up Keppinger as our only off-season addition we weren't going to catch the Tigers, still I thought .500 was doable.

KingXerxes
07-07-2013, 07:09 PM
I had guessed a bit below .500 (78 wins or so), but I never thought they'd sink to playing .400 baseball. Oh well.

asindc
07-07-2013, 07:17 PM
As I said before the season, the only people thinking that were glassy eyed-Sox fans, local publications, and the organization. The most optimistic national publications had us below .500, many significantly so. A lot of us on this board stated over and over there was very little chance this team would hit .500 as constructed. Yes, this is the bottomed out version very few thought coming (though some of us did say 100 losses was possible), but that's only a function of the Twins being good enough to pass us (and beat up on us a bit). Whether we lose 100 or just 90, the fact of the matter is there wasn't a plane of existance where .500 was a realistic outcome for this team as assembled. It's time to let go of that thought. This isn't the season that got derailed. The guys on our team are not having career bad seasons. They are having seasons that befit them. This was a bad team to start. There probably aren't a dozen guys on the whole squad that have a role on a contending team. If it wasn't obvious to you before the season, it should be very clear now. Let it go already.

Only a true pessimist would have thought they would field and hit this badly.

blandman
07-07-2013, 07:56 PM
I thought our pitching would be good enough and along with some sort of an offense, we would be .500. Our pitching has been good enough but the hitting is as we all know is another story, never did I think it could be this bad. Of course we have to add the horrible defense, how could the same team go from the fewest errors to almost the most. I knew that by picking up Keppinger as our only off-season addition we weren't going to catch the Tigers, still I thought .500 was doable.

You traded Morel's defense for Keppinger, who's a butcher, and A.J.'s passable defense for another butcher. You already had a butcher in left. Konerko/Dunn was bad last year and still is. Rios is getting older as well. Alexei's committed a few more errors, but really it's overreaction to blame him for the defensive struggles. He's still getting to a ton more balls than most shortstops.

Old teams are bad at defense. Period. This was an old team that added more bad defenders. What was supposed to happen? It played out exactly as anyone who looked at it objectively would have predicted.

Pitching is half the game, yes, (or mostly yes based on how you view defense) but as history has pointed out time and again having half the game doesn't make you a half good team. You don't win games if you can't score just like you don't win games if you can't stop the other team from scoring at will.

Only a true pessimist would have thought they would field and hit this badly.

Only a true optimist could look at this team and think they could win 80+ games. :shrug:

I'm not trying to do the "I told you so" thing. I'm trying to get people to not still think that, on paper, this team should compete. That wasn't the case before the season, how anyone could think it now is beyond denial. It's painful to listen to. There's so many other instances where teams actually do face bad luck/breaks that kill them. Just because you're bad doesn't mean you're unlucky. Yeah, we've had injuries. But that's the expecation when you build your roster around old, injury prone players.

dickallen15
07-07-2013, 08:22 PM
You traded Morel's defense for Keppinger, who's a butcher, and A.J.'s passable defense for another butcher. You already had a butcher in left. Konerko/Dunn was bad last year and still is. Rios is getting older as well. Alexei's committed a few more errors, but really it's overreaction to blame him for the defensive struggles. He's still getting to a ton more balls than most shortstops.

Old teams are bad at defense. Period. This was an old team that added more bad defenders. What was supposed to happen? It played out exactly as anyone who looked at it objectively would have predicted.

Pitching is half the game, yes, (or mostly yes based on how you view defense) but as history has pointed out time and again having half the game doesn't make you a half good team. You don't win games if you can't score just like you don't win games if you can't stop the other team from scoring at will.



Only a true optimist could look at this team and think they could win 80+ games. :shrug:

I'm not trying to do the "I told you so" thing. I'm trying to get people to not still think that, on paper, this team should compete. That wasn't the case before the season, how anyone could think it now is beyond denial. It's painful to listen to. There's so many other instances where teams actually do face bad luck/breaks that kill them. Just because you're bad doesn't mean you're unlucky. Yeah, we've had injuries. But that's the expecation when you build your roster around old, injury prone players.

Weren't you the guy who said the Tigers would challenge for the best record ever? I love how you talk down to anyone who was optimistic about the Sox even though your win total prediction for the Tigers will be even farther off.

blandman
07-07-2013, 08:44 PM
Weren't you the guy who said the Tigers would challenge for the best record ever? I love how you talk down to anyone who was optimistic about the Sox even though your win total prediction for the Tigers will be even farther off.

I said they COULD. That's a huge leap to say they would versus acknowledge they had the talent to do so. :rolleyes:

Still, they still look that good? They're in first with one of the best run differentials in baseball. They've got a guy viying for his second triple crown, a rotation with 4 of the best 20 or so pitchers in the league, and one of their pitchers is still undefeated. Their one hole is closer (they've only converted 2/3 of their saves), which they'll probably fill any day now via trade.

Brian26
07-07-2013, 08:57 PM
Alexei's committed a few more errors, but really it's overreaction to blame him for the defensive struggles.

What is your definition of "a few?"

He had 12 errors last year. He is on pace to have 28 this year.

Railsplitter
07-07-2013, 09:20 PM
(Puts hands over microphone)
****!!!!!!!!
:redface::angry:

blandman
07-07-2013, 09:25 PM
What is your definition of "a few?"

He had 12 errors last year. He is on pace to have 28 this year.

Considering he's already had two 20 error seasons as well, I submit that while he's certainly had a few more mental lapses than normal this year, last year was in fact the aberration.

His range factor per 9 is still over 4 (which is REALLY good) and his total zone/total fielding runs above average is still also positive. He's committing errors, but he's still a plus defensively versus the average shortstop even after accounting for the errors.

Brian26
07-07-2013, 09:28 PM
Considering he's already had two 20 error seasons as well, I submit that while he's certainly had a few more mental lapses than normal this year, last year was in fact the aberration.

You ignored my question.

blandman
07-07-2013, 09:36 PM
You ignored my question.

It depends?

If a guy is just sitting there with limited range, ala Derrick Jeter, then he better have a .980+ fielding percentage to compensate.

If a guy has some of the best range at his position (and it's a position that it matters, like up the middle), keeping it in the .965 range is acceptable. Alexei's a little lower than that, but he's not way off either. And his range has been just as spectacularly above average as it's always been. There's no reason for someone to come in and look at our defense, point at Alexei, and say "that's the problem". Because he isn't even part of the problem. He's been above average.

MeteorsSox4367
07-07-2013, 09:40 PM
While driving around this afternoon with my 83-year-old Dad, who is a lifelong Sox fan and the reason why I'm also a Sox fan, I attempted to listen to Farmio and DJ's account of the game.

My Dad turns to me and says, "Do me a favor. Turn this (bleep) off. I can't listen to these guys talk about this (bleep)."

White Sox baseball. Pissing off people who have been fans since Ted Lyons was pitching.

sachin
07-07-2013, 10:04 PM
Just curious, if you hate this team, why waste your time? Does it make you feel better to watch and say "Oh, man, this team stinks! I'm gonna watch the whole game then complain about how much I hate this team and hate watching them!!!"

Yeah, this team is terrible but if you dont want to watch this White Sox baseball, find something else to do.

Ride a bike, read a book, watch Phineas & Ferb...

ChicagoG19
07-07-2013, 10:12 PM
I ultimately hope this is the year the organization comes out and says we are rebuilding. The fanbase will ultimately be more forgiving if you do that rather than saying you are retooling.

Golden Sox
07-07-2013, 10:13 PM
This might be the most different last place team in baseball history. Virtually every last place team is in last place because of bad pitching. Now that Danks is back pitching decently, this White Sox pitching staff is good. If Peavy comes back and pitches good this staff will even be better. This team is in last place because it CAN'T HIT. I'm beginning to think that Hahn won't do anything to improve this team this season. Maybe he will keep this pitching staff and then after the season he will sign some free agents to improve the offense. Does it make any sense to trade your strength (the pitchers) for some hitters? Or is it better to keep the pitchers and sign some free agents who can hit?

blandman
07-07-2013, 10:16 PM
Just curious, if you hate this team, why waste your time? Does it make you feel better to watch and say "Oh, man, this team stinks! I'm gonna watch the whole game then complain about how much I hate this team and hate watching them!!!"

Yeah, this team is terrible but if you dont want to watch this White Sox baseball, find something else to do.

Ride a bike, read a book, watch Phineas & Ferb...

That attitude is more infuriating than the team's play. The team's bad so somehow we should either accept it happily and keep our mouth's shut or leave baseball forever?

We complain because that's what a lot of fans need to be do when it's this bad. Not watching is also an option, but it shouldn't be in the sense that if you aren't going to be positive about this ****ty team you need to go away. Everyone deals with it differently. Just because I can accept how bad they are (and have since before the season) doesn't mean I don't have a lot to say about it.

blandman
07-07-2013, 10:17 PM
I ultimately hope this is the year the organization comes out and says we are rebuilding. The fanbase will ultimately be more forgiving if you do that rather than saying you are retooling.

If I hear the word retooling there's gonna be words at Soxfest. We've been retooling this turd of a roster for the last 8 years and it hasn't worked once.

blandman
07-07-2013, 10:24 PM
This might be the most different last place team in baseball history. Virtually every last place team is in last place because of bad pitching. Now that Danks is back pitching decently, this White Sox pitching staff is good. If Peavy comes back and pitches good this staff will even be better. This team is in last place because it CAN'T HIT. I'm beginning to think that Hahn won't do anything to improve this team this season. Maybe he will keep this pitching staff and then after the season he will sign some free agents to improve the offense. Does it make any sense to trade your strength (the pitchers) for some hitters? Or is it better to keep the pitchers and sign some free agents who can hit?

It's not rare at all, it just doesn't show up in the final numbers. Plenty of last place clubs were in the top ten in baseball in pitching before the deadline. Then reason sets in and bad teams gut whatever they can trade.

For the record, we are 7th in the AL in ERA and 17th in baseball at 3.99. Both rankings are middle of the pack. So it's not like we were in danger of being the first last place team to lead baseball in ERA (if that truly didn't already happen). We're almost an entire run off. Heck, we're even middle of the pack in our own division. I don't get the constant glorification of our pitching. It's not a strength. Sale is a strength. The rest of our pitching without Sale's contribution would be woefully below average. He's the reason we're just league average. Think about that. Without Sale, our team ERA is bottom half. Seriously bottom half (since at 17 we're technically already bottom half).

DumpJerry
07-07-2013, 10:32 PM
If I hear the word retooling there's gonna be words at Soxfest. We've been retooling this turd of a roster for the last 8 years and it hasn't worked once.
The 2008 team has a banner.

2013-2008<8

blandman
07-07-2013, 10:38 PM
The 2008 team has a banner.

2013-2008<8

They tried not to.

A tallest midget division championship and no chance in the playoffs really isn't showing how we haven't been a turd the last 8 years.

I think the biggest mistake people make when evaluating the White Sox organization's merits is they look at a philosophy and say "it worked once" because of 2005. In actuality, the philosophy changed after winning that title. 2005 had a core of really good young players and then got veterans assembled through trades and free agency. Since then, we've worked from the veterans who are not core quality and attempted to add more veterans who are not core quality and projects.

delben91
07-07-2013, 10:47 PM
That attitude is more infuriating than the team's play. The team's bad so somehow we should either accept it happily and keep our mouth's shut or leave baseball forever?

We complain because that's what a lot of fans need to be do when it's this bad. Not watching is also an option, but it shouldn't be in the sense that if you aren't going to be positive about this ****ty team you need to go away. Everyone deals with it differently. Just because I can accept how bad they are (and have since before the season) doesn't mean I don't have a lot to say about it.

Eh, I don't know about all that. I mean, if that's how you best deal with the team's ****ty performance then that's fine by me.

I personally am more like sachin where if the team is terrible and making me angry, I choose to refocus my time on something that doesn't make me angry. As a result, I post less. Plus, when I post while frustrated I tend to make ridiculously hyperbolic statements as anyone that was in the Blackhawks playoff threads can attest to. So best all around that I keep my distance.

Anyway, just as it's your "right" to vent your frustration on the site, it's the right of fans like myself and sachin to go do something else and pay less attention in general. Fandom is not a one-size-fits-all entity.

waldo_the_wolf
07-07-2013, 10:48 PM
Seeing Josh Phegley and Simon Castro have decent MLB debuts this weekend really made me wish the Sox would do what they did in 1999 with "The Kids Can Play". Obviously the biggest difference is that the current farm system is way worse than it was then. Even though you knew the team was going to suck going into that year, at least there was appeal and excitement.

blandman
07-07-2013, 10:57 PM
Eh, I don't know about all that. I mean, if that's how you best deal with the team's ****ty performance then that's fine by me.

I personally am more like sachin where if the team is terrible and making me angry, I choose to refocus my time on something that doesn't make me angry. As a result, I post less. Plus, when I post while frustrated I tend to make ridiculously hyperbolic statements as anyone that was in the Blackhawks playoff threads can attest to. So best all around that I keep my distance.

Anyway, just as it's your "right" to vent your frustration on the site, it's the right of fans like myself and sachin to go do something else and pay less attention in general. Fandom is not a one-size-fits-all entity.

I'm not really venting though, I actually want to talk about this. I like baseball. Even ****ty baseball. :redface:

JB98
07-08-2013, 12:08 AM
No matter how bad the Sox are, baseball still beats the **** out of boring NFL training camp news and preseason games. I can't believe people are actually looking forward to that crap. No thanks, I'd rather wash my lawn.

It's too bad the Sox are woefully out of the race before the All-Star break. The summer just isn't as fun without pennant race baseball. Hopefully, the rebuilding period the Sox are about to enter won't last too long.

Tragg
07-08-2013, 12:35 AM
For the record, we are 7th in the AL in ERA and 17th in baseball at 3.99. Both rankings are middle of the pack. So it's not like we were in danger of being the first last place team to lead baseball in ERA (if that truly didn't already happen). We're almost an entire run off. Heck, we're even middle of the pack in our own division. I don't get the constant glorification of our pitching. It's not a strength. Sale is a strength. The rest of our pitching without Sale's contribution would be woefully below average. He's the reason we're just league average. Think about that. Without Sale, our team ERA is bottom half. Seriously bottom half (since at 17 we're technically already bottom half). Oh come on. The idea that Danks, Santiago, and Quintana are woefully below average is ridiculous. The back of our pen is terrible, and Axe is, well, Axe. That pulls the stats down.
As it is, Santiago is outpitching VErlander, Quintana >Fister and Danks>Porcello. ( I use that example as you claimed that Detoit has 4 top 20 pitchers on its staff). And if we had Peavy back, our starting staff would be farily comparable to Detroit's (edge to Detroit as I'll assume Verlander is going through just a bad patch). Ours pitch in a more run-friendly park, too. And ours are pitching without the mental edge of being on a winning team.

The problem with this team is bad defense, and atrocious hitting. I think we may have one hitter who is above average and he isn't great (Rios). And the back half of the pen. No use inventing weaknesses that don't exist.

blandman
07-08-2013, 02:00 AM
Oh come on. The idea that Danks, Santiago, and Quintana are woefully below average is ridiculous. The back of our pen is terrible, and Axe is, well, Axe. That pulls the stats down.
As it is, Santiago is outpitching VErlander, Quintana >Fister and Danks>Porcello. ( I use that example as you claimed that Detoit has 4 top 20 pitchers on its staff). And if we had Peavy back, our starting staff would be farily comparable to Detroit's (edge to Detroit as I'll assume Verlander is going through just a bad patch). Ours pitch in a more run-friendly park, too. And ours are pitching without the mental edge of being on a winning team.

The problem with this team is bad defense, and atrocious hitting. I think we may have one hitter who is above average and he isn't great (Rios). And the back half of the pen. No use inventing weaknesses that don't exist.

Quintana is not out-pitching Verlander. Verlander has more innings, wins, strikeouts, and has a lower ERA to boot. What metric did you use to come up with that? He's worse in every counting stat. :scratch:

Detroit has 2 of the top 10 starters in ERA (neither of which is Verlander, the best pitcher on the planet), 3 of the top 16, 4 of the top 26, and they're the only team to have all five starters in the top 40.

Arguing Danks and Peavy argues in the favor of why our pitching isn't league average. We are old and/or have guys with significant injury history/likelihood. That's a huge negative when it comes to how good your pitching is. Has it not also been a reason we are where we are? You can't just casually glance over something when it's that integral to the equation. We suck because of these guys. It isn't' somehow bizarro universe where it's having the opposite effect. Our team ERA is bad.

QCIASOXFAN
07-08-2013, 03:10 AM
Seeing Josh Phegley and Simon Castro have decent MLB debuts this weekend really made me wish the Sox would do what they did in 1999 with "The Kids Can Play". Obviously the biggest difference is that the current farm system is way worse than it was then. Even though you knew the team was going to suck going into that year, at least there was appeal and excitement.

Totally agree. From every place I have looked they are still ranked bottom 5 on the farm. This still hasn't stopped me from following all of our "top" prospects though a few times a week. Thompson looks great and Anderson is looking awesome at A ball so far. Of course Phegley gives me hope.

SI1020
07-08-2013, 07:11 AM
That attitude is more infuriating than the team's play. The team's bad so somehow we should either accept it happily and keep our mouth's shut or leave baseball forever?

We complain because that's what a lot of fans need to be do when it's this bad. Not watching is also an option, but it shouldn't be in the sense that if you aren't going to be positive about this ****ty team you need to go away. Everyone deals with it differently. Just because I can accept how bad they are (and have since before the season) doesn't mean I don't have a lot to say about it. Shut up or root for the Dodgers. That's what I was ordered to do. On this issue I can completely agree with you.

dickallen15
07-08-2013, 07:58 AM
I said they COULD. That's a huge leap to say they would versus acknowledge they had the talent to do so. :rolleyes:

Still, they still look that good? They're in first with one of the best run differentials in baseball. They've got a guy viying for his second triple crown, a rotation with 4 of the best 20 or so pitchers in the league, and one of their pitchers is still undefeated. Their one hole is closer (they've only converted 2/3 of their saves), which they'll probably fill any day now via trade.

And you called the rookie they were going to have close one of the greatest pitching prospects in baseball. You were as wrong as anyone who thought the Sox could contend, but by all means continue posting like you know more than anyone else even though the facts are you don't.

SOXSINCE'70
07-08-2013, 08:24 AM
Bears training camp can't open soon enough.

When do the Hawks start training camp?

DeadMoney
07-08-2013, 08:50 AM
He might be making too much money to do that; however, he may be wondering if he should have taken a job as a GM elsewhere some days. We'll see what he can do as we hopefully shed players for prospects and $$$ savings.

KW (with Hahn's 'assistance') sure left him with a steaming pile of dog **** to work with.

Carolina Kenny
07-08-2013, 08:58 AM
Totally agree. From every place I have looked they are still ranked bottom 5 on the farm. This still hasn't stopped me from following all of our "top" prospects though a few times a week. Thompson looks great and Anderson is looking awesome at A ball so far. Of course Phegley gives me hope.

Our new rallying cry and a new Sox legend begins.

"Phegley gives me hope."

I now call him Hope Phegley.

blandman
07-08-2013, 10:00 AM
And you called the rookie they were going to have close one of the greatest pitching prospects in baseball. You were as wrong as anyone who thought the Sox could contend, but by all means continue posting like you know more than anyone else even though the facts are you don't.

He's young and will still succeed. And I totally said he could falter and they could easily trade Nick Castellanos for a premium closer (which they probably will).

And I'm pretty sure I didn't use a word like "greatest" to describe him. He isn't even the "greatest" relief prospect, just a really good one.

blandman
07-08-2013, 10:01 AM
Our new rallying cry and a new Sox legend begins.

"Phegley gives me hope."

I now call him Hope Phegley.

I've read what the scouts say and have watched video and agreed with them. But then he comes up here and still produces. **** it, I'm on board. Phegley's awesome, even if he doesn't make sense.

He seriously can't catch though. Maybe he's the long term solution at first base.

SoxSpeed22
07-08-2013, 10:06 AM
Detroit will probably trade for a closer if it keeps up. I think K-Rod is going to be one of the big prizes at the deadline. I am hoping Baltimore goes after him, but I doubt it. Papelbon is also out there.

MeteorsSox4367
07-08-2013, 10:50 AM
Detroit will probably trade for a closer if it keeps up. I think K-Rod is going to be one of the big prizes at the deadline. I am hoping Baltimore goes after him, but I doubt it. Papelbon is also out there.

Imagine ESPN's coverage if Boston were to reacquire Papelbon. Wow. That would make Tebow appear overlooked by our friends in Bristol.

Tragg
07-08-2013, 12:33 PM
KW (with Hahn's 'assistance') sure left him with a steaming pile of dog **** to work with.

Heck, if you're a GM and you like to wheel and deal, this is the job for you.
We do have assets....what do we do with them?
Starting pitchers, unless their top of the rotation, are more valuable in off-season deals than inseason deals, as they are what get you to the playoffs. We have 3 viable lefty starters that we could trade (plus a fourth that we won't trade)...can you take one and get a couple of quality position players out of him?
Can Phelgely hit? If so, can he play outfield?
Relievers are more valuable in in-season trades than offseason, as they are easy to sign in the offseason. Time to do some deals.
This would be a fun job for a GM.

Tragg
07-08-2013, 12:37 PM
On a different note, I heard a few Madden comments about his offense...he says that they aren't expanding the strike zone and swinging at pitches they can hit. It would be nice to have that ethic in this organization. Maybe we can hire one of his guys as manager next year.

Bobby Thigpen
07-08-2013, 12:48 PM
No matter how bad the Sox are, baseball still beats the **** out of boring NFL training camp news and preseason games. I can't believe people are actually looking forward to that crap. No thanks, I'd rather wash my lawn.

It's too bad the Sox are woefully out of the race before the All-Star break. The summer just isn't as fun without pennant race baseball. Hopefully, the rebuilding period the Sox are about to enter won't last too long.
What? You can't wait for the breathless reports about how awesome Jay Cutler looked hitting Brandon Marshall on a 5 yard out in only helmets two months before the beginning of the season?

SCCWS
07-08-2013, 01:17 PM
On a different note, I heard a few Madden comments about his offense...he says that they aren't expanding the strike zone and swinging at pitches they can hit. It would be nice to have that ethic in this organization. Maybe we can hire one of his guys as manager next year.

Remember the Dave Martinez rumors replacing Ozzie.

mahagga73
07-08-2013, 01:19 PM
It depends?

If a guy is just sitting there with limited range, ala Derrick Jeter, then he better have a .980+ fielding percentage to compensate.

If a guy has some of the best range at his position (and it's a position that it matters, like up the middle), keeping it in the .965 range is acceptable. Alexei's a little lower than that, but he's not way off either. And his range has been just as spectacularly above average as it's always been. There's no reason for someone to come in and look at our defense, point at Alexei, and say "that's the problem". Because he isn't even part of the problem. He's been above average.
He's a huge part of the problem. His errors are seemingly always deciding factors in the loss of the game. You can flaunt Sabermetrics all you want, and fielding range, and whatever, but the reality is he isn't a winning player ,much like a lot of the rest of them and their pathetic OBP's. Whether they could get anything better at this point is another argument.

dickallen15
07-08-2013, 01:20 PM
On a different note, I heard a few Madden comments about his offense...he says that they aren't expanding the strike zone and swinging at pitches they can hit. It would be nice to have that ethic in this organization. Maybe we can hire one of his guys as manager next year.

The same Maddon who bunted in the first inning yesterday? Ventura would be skewered if he did that.

blandman
07-08-2013, 01:31 PM
He's a huge part of the problem. His errors are seemingly always deciding factors in the loss of the game. You can flaunt Sabermetrics all you want, and fielding range, and whatever, but the reality is he isn't a winning player ,much like a lot of the rest of them and their pathetic OBP's. Whether they could get anything better at this point is another argument.

Errors are just easier to quantify so the reactions are always stronger. Nobody sits and watches games and says...okay this week the shortstop didn't get to 5 balls that ended up as hits that most other shortstops would get. Or, in Alexei's case, this week he reached 5 extra balls over the next tier of shortstop that should have been hits. But he's saving runs a lot more often than he's giving them up. He's saving more runs than most shortstops in baseball. Errors are only a piece.

Harry Chappas
07-08-2013, 02:00 PM
What? You can't wait for the breathless reports about how awesome Jay Cutler looked hitting Brandon Marshall on a 5 yard out in only helmets two months before the beginning of the season?

In fairness, we have almost a completely new coaching staff, new offensive game plan, a legit tight-end in Bennett, etc. This isn't your typical Bears pre-season so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Beats the hell out of watching the Sox come up with new ways to lose.

I'm actually jealous of my friends that are Cubs fans. Whether it works or not, time will tell, but at least there's a "plan." I have no clue what the Sox are even attempting to do. Even if they decide to blow it up, some of our most trade-able commodities are injured (Konerko/Peavy/Crain) or cold as ice (Rios). Instead of converting them into legitimate prospects, Hahn will probably have to take AAAA players and pick up some of their salary to boot. It honestly couldn't get much worse. And while I applaud their relatively new drafting philosophy (higher ceiling kids), it may be several more years before any of them - Walker, Thompson, Barnum, Hawkins, and Anderson - are on the MLB roster. What's more troubling is that all of them are K-ing at an alarming rate. For a team that can't hit, this doesn't bode well for the future.

#1swisher
07-08-2013, 02:20 PM
Sox have announced they will shoot off fireworks anytime a Sox runner is advanced to 2B for the duration of the season.

http://www.theheckler.com/2013/07/08/white-sox-to-shoot-off-fireworks-anytime-they-advance-a-runner-to-second-base/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=white-sox-to-shoot-off-fireworks-anytime-they-advance-a-runner-to-second-base

Foulke You
07-08-2013, 02:22 PM
I'm actually jealous of my friends that are Cubs fans. Whether it works or not, time will tell, but at least there's a "plan." I have no clue what the Sox are even attempting to do. .
I think it is unfair to compare what the Cubs are doing and what the Sox are now dealing with. The Cubs went into this season knowing they would be awful and building for 2 or 3 years down the road. The Sox were coming off a year where they spent 110+ days in first place and expected to contend again for a division title. Contending was their plan for 2013 and it has obviously been a failure. The wheels are coming off the wagon this season and the team is going to be changing gears soon. We simply have to wait for the trades to happen before we can know for sure what Hahn's specific plan B is now that plan A has been a disaster. The Sox front office keeps things very close to the vest and don't use the media to hype upcoming roster decisions. Phegley and Simon Castro could be the first part of plan B being put in motion.

guillensdisciple
07-08-2013, 02:36 PM
Meh, I still don't regret subscribing to MLB.TV for the year. I knew the dark times of White Sox ball were coming sooner or later. Not enough youth to replace the age.

Bobby Thigpen
07-08-2013, 02:58 PM
In fairness, we have almost a completely new coaching staff, new offensive game plan, a legit tight-end in Bennett, etc. This isn't your typical Bears pre-season so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Beats the hell out of watching the Sox come up with new ways to lose.

We?

You're not going to learn a single thing with these reports from camp. Go to every NFL camp and you'll notice one thing- they all look the same. The way the NFL is structured now with practice time limits and when they can and can't hit, there's very little for them to show during practice. Most of the work goes on in film work and in the GM's office.

pudge
07-08-2013, 03:02 PM
I'm young (23), so I don't remember many bad Sox teams. This one right here is the worst Sox team I have ever seen. No one up to bat has a plan, no one on this team can field properly, and the pitching has NO offensive help AT ALL. I never thought I'd see a Sox team have 51 losses before the all-star break. I don't know what else to say what has already been said about this team. What a mess.:mad:

I am old enough to have seen some of the train wrecks in the 80s, but this is about as bad as it gets. Having said that, I was disgusted by the constantly underachieving that happened in the 90s almost more than this. I'm disgusted a team that won the World Series only returned to the playoffs once. My point being, sometimes these types of seasons need to happen, and they can be easier to deal with because you let it go for a year or two and return when the franchise gets it's act together. (By "return" I mean watching games regularly.)

Ventura never wanted this role. For all the praise, he needs to show he actually wants to do this. His team died on him last year after being in first for 100 games, and they are one of the worst Sox teams ever this year. That is not a good start to a manager's career.

captain54
07-08-2013, 03:21 PM
I The Sox were coming off a year where they spent 110+ days in first place and expected to contend again for a division title. Contending was their plan for 2013 and it has obviously been a failure.

The organization finally got bit in the behind for resting on the laurel of being a contender, rather than actually accomplishing anything.. So the Sox were in first for a good part of 2012.. who cares? they choked down the stretch and didn't go to the postseason.. that's the bottom line.. were the reasons WHY they choked addressed? No, they werent

People have commented as to why the Sox don't draw... Stone commented that the Sox didn't draw in 2012 even though there were in first.. Sox fans aren't stupid, they can sniff a winner.. They drew in 06 cause the majority of the 05 team was in tact plus they added Thome.. give me a frikkin break

captain54
07-08-2013, 03:28 PM
My point being, sometimes these types of seasons need to happen, and they can be easier to deal with because you let it go for a year or two and return when the franchise gets it's act together. (By "return" I mean watching games regularly.)

Ventura never wanted this role. For all the praise, he needs to show he actually wants to do this. His team died on him last year after being in first for 100 games, and they are one of the worst Sox teams ever this year.

Bingo.. My sentiments exactly.

Major MLB Market. Big City. Large Fanbase.. ability to spend $$$.. Close to the worst team in MLB despite being in the top 10 in payroll.. Tampa and Pittsburgh with a mere fraction that payroll and contending... it's downright shocking, yet .. I'll stop now, but .. what Pudge said.. sometimes these seasons need to happen

Harry Chappas
07-08-2013, 04:18 PM
We?

You're not going to learn a single thing with these reports from camp. Go to every NFL camp and you'll notice one thing- they all look the same. The way the NFL is structured now with practice time limits and when they can and can't hit, there's very little for them to show during practice. Most of the work goes on in film work and in the GM's office.

Please. You're going to call out the "we" on a sports fan message board of all places? Let me make it a little clearer - I will gladly watch almost anything other than maybe soccer to help me forget the White Sox for a while and that includes the NFL pre-season. I'm not watching because I think I'm going to "learn" something but thanks for explaining the NFL to me.

Harry Chappas
07-08-2013, 04:31 PM
I think it is unfair to compare what the Cubs are doing and what the Sox are now dealing with. The Cubs went into this season knowing they would be awful and building for 2 or 3 years down the road. The Sox were coming off a year where they spent 110+ days in first place and expected to contend again for a division title. Contending was their plan for 2013 and it has obviously been a failure. The wheels are coming off the wagon this season and the team is going to be changing gears soon. We simply have to wait for the trades to happen before we can know for sure what Hahn's specific plan B is now that plan A has been a disaster. The Sox front office keeps things very close to the vest and don't use the media to hype upcoming roster decisions. Phegley and Simon Castro could be the first part of plan B being put in motion.

You honestly think the Sox went into this year thinking that they had a legitimate shot at winning the division (or a wild card)? They got rid of one of their steadiest offensive contributors in AJ and replaced him with a glorified AAAA backstop. The Keppinger deal was just filler and wasn't going to put us over the hump.

Even the most optimistic among us didn't figure we had much of a shot this year to say nothing of the collective opinion of the media that had the Sox pegged as a .500 team, at best.

JB98
07-08-2013, 04:34 PM
I think it is unfair to compare what the Cubs are doing and what the Sox are now dealing with. The Cubs went into this season knowing they would be awful and building for 2 or 3 years down the road. The Sox were coming off a year where they spent 110+ days in first place and expected to contend again for a division title. Contending was their plan for 2013 and it has obviously been a failure. The wheels are coming off the wagon this season and the team is going to be changing gears soon. We simply have to wait for the trades to happen before we can know for sure what Hahn's specific plan B is now that plan A has been a disaster. The Sox front office keeps things very close to the vest and don't use the media to hype upcoming roster decisions. Phegley and Simon Castro could be the first part of plan B being put in motion.

Good post. Let's not define the Sox within the context of the Cubs. It's two different situations. Just because we don't know what the Sox are planning doesn't mean the front office doesn't have a plan.

I do realize the Cubs came out and said, "We're rebuilding. It's going to be a long process. Be patient with us." That's nice. Good for them. It seems some fans are expecting the Sox to make a similar annoucement. Well, what if the Sox have no intention of undertaking a Cubs' style rebuild? They aren't going to come out and announce that when that's not their intention. Why would they?

IMO, the Sox are aware they can't afford to do what the Cubs are doing. A total rebuild might make sense from a pure baseball perspective, but it would be a highly questionable choice from a business perspective. I don't think Sox fans will support a long-term rebuilding project. Further, the Sox are already slipping into irrelevance in the city, and I don't think they can afford to be irrelevant for four or five years. After that, it would take multiple years of success to bring the fans back.

Foulke You
07-08-2013, 05:38 PM
You honestly think the Sox went into this year thinking that they had a legitimate shot at winning the division (or a wild card)?
Yes the organization did believe they had a shot. They chose to allocate their dollars to bringing back Jake Peavy instead of AJ. You don't bring back Jake Peavy this season if you thought you were going to be a .500 team. They had Flowers pegged as the #1 catcher heir for the last few years as a younger, cheaper alternative to the aging AJ. They were expecting a lot more out of Flowers and he has been a flop. Flowers ended up proving to everyone that he is just a backup but I don't believe the Sox viewed him as "AAAA" as you put it. They thought highly of him or they wouldn't have handed him the reigns. Keppinger was supposed to be a great bat handler, be the ideal #2 hitter, cut down on the strikeouts, and make the Sox offense less HR reliant as they were in 2012. Obviously, none of these moves have worked out at all and I'm not trying to defend them but I believe they were all made with an eye towards contending this year.


Good post. Let's not define the Sox within the context of the Cubs. It's two different situations. Just because we don't know what the Sox are planning doesn't mean the front office doesn't have a plan.

I do realize the Cubs came out and said, "We're rebuilding. It's going to be a long process. Be patient with us." That's nice. Good for them. It seems some fans are expecting the Sox to make a similar annoucement. Well, what if the Sox have no intention of undertaking a Cubs' style rebuild? They aren't going to come out and announce that when that's not their intention. Why would they?
Yep. I also don't expect much in the way of announcements either. It's just not in their nature to call press conferences to say "we have a plan and please bear with us". Under the stewardship of KW, the team operates in the shadows. I don't expect this to change under Hahn. The only info you get comes from leaks from other GMs letting the media know they talked to the Sox about a certain guy. The trades and roster moves they make in the next 1 to 6 months will show the fans what direction the franchise is headed, not a catchy marketing phrase like the "Kids Can Play" nor a GM holding a press conference talking about a rebuild.

Tragg
07-08-2013, 07:12 PM
You honestly think the Sox went into this year thinking that they had a legitimate shot at winning the division (or a wild card)? They got rid of one of their steadiest offensive contributors in AJ and replaced him with a glorified AAAA backstop. The Keppinger deal was just filler and wasn't going to put us over the hump.

Even the most optimistic among us didn't figure we had much of a shot this year to say nothing of the collective opinion of the media that had the Sox pegged as a .500 team, at best.

I think they did. The problem was they weren't willing to do what it took to have a good chance to turn the tables. They made a weak effort to shore up the offense, and hurt the defense with the small effort they made (Keppinger). And they signed Wise to be the top bench bat, which wasn't close to a serious effort.

JB98
07-08-2013, 07:37 PM
Yep. I also don't expect much in the way of announcements either. It's just not in their nature to call press conferences to say "we have a plan and please bear with us". Under the stewardship of KW, the team operates in the shadows. I don't expect this to change under Hahn. The only info you get comes from leaks from other GMs letting the media know they talked to the Sox about a certain guy. The trades and roster moves they make in the next 1 to 6 months will show the fans what direction the franchise is headed, not a catchy marketing phrase like the "Kids Can Play" nor a GM holding a press conference talking about a rebuild.

Agreed. And what if a rebuild isn't in their plans? They can't come out and say, "Dear Sox fans, Here are the players we intend to acquire via trade and during free agency next offseason ... We hope to return to contention next year." That would be ridiculous.

This whole idea that the organization needs to make some sort of announcement of its future direction seems nonsensical to me. Their words mean nothing anyhow. It is their actions and results that count.

Jurr
07-08-2013, 08:23 PM
I would SO MUCH rather have seen this result than a team hovering near .500 and hanging on to this mess.

Kenny Williams deserves NO validation for the mess he shaped this roster into.
He tried to wring every last ounce out of some has-beens, and he got the last juice in 2012.

This team has been plodding down this slope for a while. It has been time to clean house, and it is about to get underway.

I'd rather see some young and hungry kids standing on the dugout steps watching the game than a bunch of overpaid, fat, and happy former studs sitting in the back of the dugout looking at tee times.

soxfanreggie
07-08-2013, 10:09 PM
Yes the organization did believe they had a shot. They chose to allocate their dollars to bringing back Jake Peavy instead of AJ. You don't bring back Jake Peavy this season if you thought you were going to be a .500 team. They had Flowers pegged as the #1 catcher heir for the last few years as a younger, cheaper alternative to the aging AJ. They were expecting a lot more out of Flowers and he has been a flop. Flowers ended up proving to everyone that he is just a backup but I don't believe the Sox viewed him as "AAAA" as you put it. They thought highly of him or they wouldn't have handed him the reigns. Keppinger was supposed to be a great bat handler, be the ideal #2 hitter, cut down on the strikeouts, and make the Sox offense less HR reliant as they were in 2012. Obviously, none of these moves have worked out at all and I'm not trying to defend them but I believe they were all made with an eye towards contending this year.


It may be the "there's no book on him" burst, but at least Phegley is providing some excitement. I don't mind Flowers as a back-up, but I don't like him as a starter. If Phegley is a potential starter for us though, we may need a veteran guy to help tutor him.

hawkjt
07-09-2013, 04:06 PM
Sox expected Danks to be a contributor,and did not expect Gavin Floyd to have a season ending injury in May.

They added Lindstrom,and Keppinger.
The offense was pretty good last year until the last two weeks of Sept.

Sox had a perfect storm of PK going down, Floyd going down, Keppinger and flowers sucking, and Gordo being hurt for two months.

They needed everything to fall in place,but this team could have contended all season again,and maybe win,but everything that could go wrong ...did.

One of those years. Blow it up,and start over,and get some high draft picks.