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View Full Version : *Official* 6-16 We aren't anyone's daddy; HOU 5 SOX 4 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
06-16-2013, 05:29 PM
Nothing to see here, moving along...

Frater Perdurabo
06-16-2013, 05:30 PM
For those wishing to recall happier times, Game 4 of the 2005 World Series is available in its entirety on YouTube.

soxfanreggie
06-16-2013, 05:32 PM
Another loss to these guys? Who's the first player to go here soon? Thornton? Crain? Rios? Alexei? The only guy I consider untouchable (as I doubt anyone would offer a king's ransom) is Sale. Anyone else, they can have for prospects.

tstrike2000
06-16-2013, 05:37 PM
Another loss to these guys? Who's the first player to go here soon? Thornton? Crain? Rios? Alexei? The only guy I consider untouchable (as I doubt anyone would offer a king's ransom) is Sale. Anyone else, they can have for prospects.

For those things to happen, we'd have to assume Hahn knows what he's doing, which is anyone's guess.

SoxSpeed22
06-16-2013, 05:38 PM
Anybody care to guess on what the low point of the season is so far? You have so many good choices.
A pretty big positive is that Beckham is still hitting the ball well.

Noneck
06-16-2013, 05:38 PM
Another loss to these guys? Who's the first player to go here soon? Thornton? Crain? Rios? Alexei? The only guy I consider untouchable (as I doubt anyone would offer a king's ransom) is Sale. Anyone else, they can have for prospects.

They will get next to nothing for 2 older relievers in their FA year. Ramirez at his age and whats owed to him (23M) has negative worth. Rios might get a decent prospect but nothing great. So not much to look forward to.

Brian26
06-16-2013, 05:42 PM
Another loss to these guys? Who's the first player to go here soon? Thornton? Crain? Rios? Alexei? The only guy I consider untouchable (as I doubt anyone would offer a king's ransom) is Sale. Anyone else, they can have for prospects.

Beckham looks like he has finally figured it out. Only took him four years.

I am done with Alexei. Crain realistically is probably the first to go, as he actually has some value. Half the guys on this team right now would be difficult to give away based on contract versus performance.

HaroMaster87
06-16-2013, 05:44 PM
They owe alexei another 23 mil still? Ouch...that's a no good. He's awful...

shingo10
06-16-2013, 05:48 PM
Thornton continues his awful, awful season. As do the Sox.

De Aza's homer in the 9th is so typcial. He strikes out with the bases loaded but then gets us just close enough to lose another 1 run game.

Poor Hawk sounds like he might not make it out alive on this road trip. Mercy.

Tragg
06-16-2013, 05:49 PM
3 1-run losses to the Astros and we out-hit them each game.

Tragg
06-16-2013, 05:51 PM
Players with high value:
Peavy (if he would be healthy)
Sale
Reed
Rios
Santiago
Crane
Quintana
Jones to a lesser extent

I like Santiago because of his high strikeout numbers. He just need to improve command. Hopefully the Sox don't assign him middle-reliever value, which is where they often use him.

Crestani
06-16-2013, 06:11 PM
Another loss to these guys? Who's the first player to go here soon? Thornton? Crain? Rios? Alexei? The only guy I consider untouchable (as I doubt anyone would offer a king's ransom) is Sale. Anyone else, they can have for prospects.


Hopefully Thornton...He is done..!! The Dunn, woops too expensive..!!

Crestani
06-16-2013, 06:12 PM
Players with high value:
Peavy (if he would be healthy)
Sale
Reed
Rios
Santiago
Crane
Quintana
Jones to a lesser extent

I like Santiago because of his high strikeout numbers. He just need to improve command. Hopefully the Sox don't assign him middle-reliever value, which is where they often use him.


Sale, Reed & Jones, Santiago & Quintana are going nowhere..!!

Noneck
06-16-2013, 06:19 PM
Sale, Reed & Jones, Santiago & Quintana are going nowhere..!!

Sale is the diamond. Everyone wants gold for a turd, it doesnt work that way. You have to give to get.

Soxman219
06-16-2013, 06:28 PM
3 1-run losses to the Astros and we out-hit them each game.

:mad::angry:

Tragg
06-16-2013, 06:45 PM
Sale, Reed & Jones, Santiago & Quintana are going nowhere..!!
I understand.
The problem is that by the time we get any good, they'll be up for free agency. Gotta give to get.

DumpJerry
06-16-2013, 07:03 PM
They owe alexei another 23 mil still? Ouch...that's a no good. He's awful...
Here are the details, pet Cot's:


12:$5M, 13:$7M, 14:$9.5M, 15:$10M, 16:$10M club option ($1M buyout)



4 years/$4.75M (2008-11)

SOXSINCE'70
06-16-2013, 07:19 PM
White Sox baseball:

:sellreinsy:facepalm:

Lip Man 1
06-16-2013, 08:42 PM
The team sucks. Period. End of discussion.

That is all.

Lip

SCCWS
06-16-2013, 08:59 PM
Sale, Reed & Jones, Santiago & Quintana are going nowhere..!!

On this team, they are already there.

ZombieRob
06-16-2013, 09:17 PM
Players with high value:
Peavy (if he would be healthy)
Sale
Reed
Rios
Santiago
Crane
Quintana
Jones to a lesser extent

I like Santiago because of his high strikeout numbers. He just need to improve command. Hopefully the Sox don't assign him middle-reliever value, which is where they often use him.
That's sad that Konerko isn't in that group.

BainesHOF
06-16-2013, 09:29 PM
Flowers was funny yet again. He allowed his throwing hand to be hit again by a foul tip. The guy isn't even smart enough to protect himself physically.

If Thornton wasn't brought into a close game, the Sox probably win. For the umpteenth time, Thornton should never pitch when the game is on the line.

Once again, De Aza led off the game with a strikeout and then walked back to the dugout shaking his head. Enough of this guy already.

Viciedo has no business being on a Major League roster.

The season is about to become a lot worse when we start playing better teams.

A. Cavatica
06-16-2013, 09:48 PM
That's sad that Konerko isn't in that group.

What do you expect for a 55 year old first baseman who can't hit?

soxfanreggie
06-17-2013, 01:19 AM
Sale is the diamond. Everyone wants gold for a turd, it doesnt work that way. You have to give to get.

I never mentioned getting gold. My focus is on saving $$$ to help for the future and getting a few pieces that may develop into MLB talent. Why would you get rid of Sale, a guy who has shown to have #1 talent and is under a great deal for you for prospects unless those prospects were no doubters to make a difference at the MLB level. Guys like Sale and Reed can be built around and we don't have to worry about losing in the next year or two.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2013, 03:09 AM
I never mentioned getting gold. My focus is on saving $$$ to help for the future and getting a few pieces that may develop into MLB talent. Why would you get rid of Sale, a guy who has shown to have #1 talent and is under a great deal for you for prospects unless those prospects were no doubters to make a difference at the MLB level. Guys like Sale and Reed can be built around and we don't have to worry about losing in the next year or two.

Reggie:

Not saying I agree with Noneck's position but I understand where he is coming from.

Right now things look so ****ed up both at the big league level and in the minor leagues that let's suppose the team is sold this off season a brand new front office is brought in and you are looking at basically a total rebuild.

It's probably going to take four years at least to turn things around (if you're lucky...)

By that time Sale's deal is running out, he's four years older, more milage on the arm. Hell he could be injured.

Noneck is saying (I think) that if the Sox decide to go the rebuilding mode with current ownership or not, by the time they've turned this cesspool around Sale might not be worth much at all. If you are going to go this approach and suck the next four years you may as well trade the few good pieces you actually have to get back two or three good prospects who may actually have a chance to contribute when things start moving forward.

Again not saying that's the way I'd go, but I understand the point. If you can get a king's ransom for Sale and say Reed, you have to at least consider it.

The situation is so bad right now, so devoid of talent no one can be untouchable and all options simply have to be at least considered.

Lip

Noneck
06-17-2013, 04:53 AM
Reggie:

Not saying I agree with Noneck's position but I understand where he is coming from.

Right now things look so ****ed up both at the big league level and in the minor leagues that let's suppose the team is sold this off season a brand new front office is brought in and you are looking at basically a total rebuild.

It's probably going to take four years at least to turn things around (if you're lucky...)

By that time Sale's deal is running out, he's four years older, more milage on the arm. Hell he could be injured.

Noneck is saying (I think) that if the Sox decide to go the rebuilding mode with current ownership or not, by the time they've turned this cesspool around Sale might not be worth much at all. If you are going to go this approach and suck the next four years you may as well trade the few good pieces you actually have to get back two or three good prospects who may actually have a chance to contribute when things start moving forward.

Again not saying that's the way I'd go, but I understand the point. If you can get a king's ransom for Sale and say Reed, you have to at least consider it.

The situation is so bad right now, so devoid of talent no one can be untouchable and all options simply have to be at least considered.

Lip


Yes Lip, thats what I meant and also Sale makes money now. I see the Sox going on the total cheap if they rebuild, he wont bring fans to the park so having a ace thats making decent money on a 70 win team, for 4-5 years wont make sense to the Sox.

October26
06-17-2013, 09:22 AM
I so wanted the Sox to win this game on Father's Day for my father and all of the wonderful dads who are Sox fans (many of whom frequently visit and post on this site). It was not to be.

I did not get to watch this game as the nursing home where my father is currently residing at does not have CSN, which is probably a good thing.

I spent a beautiful day with my father talking about everything from life, love, marriage, the challenges of working and raising children, coming to America and even a little conversation about the Sox.

I am thankful for the gift of time with my dad. And still hoping against all hope that we get to see some good games from the Sox this Summer.

Foulke You
06-17-2013, 11:29 AM
Reggie:

It's probably going to take four years at least to turn things around (if you're lucky...)

Lip
Things are bad right now but I disagree with this statement. People said similar things after dreadful seasons in 2007 and 2011 and in both cases, the Sox found themselves in contention the following season. During all of this dreadful run, the Sox continue to get solid starting pitching which is normally the hardest thing to build. This is why I think this team could definitely contend in 2014 with a re-tooling of the starting 9 and not a complete tear-down. This year's Red Sox team did a good job of re-tooling and turned a 69 win team into a contender the following year.

Just look at all the one run games the Sox have lost this year due to lack of offensive production. Replacement level players in many cases (LF, Catcher, 1B) would likely have made those 1 run losses into wins. If Hahn can make a few good moves at the deadline as well as in the offseason leading up to 2014 and keep most of the starting pitching staff intact, I think the Sox could contend next year.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2013, 01:24 PM
Foulke:

With respect...again I understand your position but I'd make the case that when things have gotten so bad that the organization can't even put back to back winning seasons together since 2005-2006 you've got a deep, deep problem.

Sure the Sox rebounded in 2008 and 2010...what happened again in 2009 and 2011?

CONSISTENCY is the key, consistency in "contending"...not just in what is usually a crappy division but having a legit shot at the American League pennant should be the goal (Kittle has talked about this many times as I remember...)

You simply can't "rebuild" and "contend" at the same time, it just doesn't work. I think the Sox have shown it doesn't work. You can't simply paste over the cracks and hope. That is only a temporary solution.

Honestly I don't care what approach they choose but "it's time" to pick a lane and stay there and give whatever avenue you take a chance to really work over a period of time.

If they want to take the Tampa approach and build through the draft...fine.

If they want to take the Yankee / Angel / Rangers / Red Sox approach and buy every good free agent out there...fine.

Just stop screwing around trying to do both.

But the other factor whichever way the Sox choose to go is this, you have to have sharp people making the decisions and putting areas in action.

Do the Sox have those folks right now at the minor league and major league levels?

Many would say no because in this organization, loyalty is apparently worth more than winning.

That's hard for me to say by the way, some of those folks are good friends of mine but the bottom line is that the record on the field shows something is badly wrong and has been wrong overall for the last six years.

Eventually like my late father used to say, "it's time to **** or get off the pot..."

Lip

doublem23
06-17-2013, 01:28 PM
You simply can't "rebuild" and "contend" at the same time, it just doesn't work. I think the Sox have shown it doesn't work. You can't simply paste over the cracks and hope. That is only a temporary solution.

Honestly I don't care what approach they choose but "it's time" to pick a lane and stay there and give whatever avenue you take a chance to really work over a period of time.

If they want to take the Tampa approach and build through the draft...fine.

If they want to take the Yankee / Angel / Rangers / Red Sox approach and buy every good free agent out there...fine.

Just stop screwing around trying to do both.

LOL, what, the Giants, winners of 2 of the last 3 World Series have shown that teams can easily successfully build both internally and externally. In fact, just glossing at the standings, I would bet that every top team right now is some kind of mashup between good draft picks and good FA signings. To think it can be done all within one way is just perposterous.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2013, 01:35 PM
When the Sox win two World Series in three years I'll buy your argument.

Also nice of you to ignore the other point that whatever way you go or even if you decide to try both approaches like the Giants, you have to have the people who can actually make good decisions pulling the strings.

The Sox have tried "both" approaches the last six years. How has it worked out eh?

Thought so.

Lip

nsolo
06-17-2013, 02:33 PM
LOL, what, the Giants, winners of 2 of the last 3 World Series have shown that teams can easily successfully build both internally and externally. In fact, just glossing at the standings, I would bet that every top team right now is some kind of mashup between good draft picks and good FA signings. To think it can be done all within one way is just perposterous.

No matter which direction is chosen, it is imperative that those pulling the trigger are talented enough to make those calls. I don't believe that those in charge, down to our scouts, have the insight to correctly identify talent. Nor do our coaches, on all levels, have the knowledge to correctly instruct and guide lower level talent.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 02:47 PM
Also nice of you to ignore the other point that whatever way you go or even if you decide to try both approaches like the Giants, you have to have the people who can actually make good decisions pulling the strings.

The Sox have tried "both" approaches the last six years. How has it worked out eh?

Thought so.

Lip

Oh please, the Giants GM, Brian Sabean had been under fire from fans for YEARS because of his shotty record of finding talent. That deal he gave to Barry Zito was, for most of it, a worse bust than Adam Dunn.

They just got lucky and had a few things go right and it worked. What people don't like to admit about baseball is that, at the front office level, it's more or less 99% luck.

But either way, thinking that you have to go one or the other route is just stupid. The Royals have been rebuilding through their farm system for almost 20 years. How has that worked, eh?

Thought so.

DirtySox
06-17-2013, 03:03 PM
LOL, what, the Giants, winners of 2 of the last 3 World Series have shown that teams can easily successfully build both internally and externally. In fact, just glossing at the standings, I would bet that every top team right now is some kind of mashup between good draft picks and good FA signings. To think it can be done all within one way is just perposterous.

Correct. It's becoming the norm to have a nice mixture of homegrown cost controlled talent augmented by smart free agent signings. It's not either or, it's the right combination of both. Much has to do with the timing, state of the minors, the free agent landscape, and what kind of core you have.

With Detroit's window wide open currently it would behoove the Sox to sit back, build up the minors a bit and wait patiently for there own opportunity. As much as everyone would like to competitive each and every year it's not always feasible.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2013, 05:54 PM
No matter which direction is chosen, it is imperative that those pulling the trigger are talented enough to make those calls. I don't believe that those in charge, down to our scouts, have the insight to correctly identify talent. Nor do our coaches, on all levels, have the knowledge to correctly instruct and guide lower level talent.

Nsolo:

Exactly. Or else you've got the same folks making the same mistakes that got you into the mess in the first place.

Whichever direction is chosen, I agree, it's hard to think the current folks will get it right.

New people are needed with no ties to the Sox or JR to look at things from a different perspective.

Lip

Brian26
06-17-2013, 09:58 PM
Oh please, the Giants GM, Brian Sabean had been under fire from fans for YEARS because of his shotty record of finding talent. That deal he gave to Barry Zito was, for most of it, a worse bust than Adam Dunn.

They just got lucky and had a few things go right and it worked. What people don't like to admit about baseball is that, at the front office level, it's more or less 99% luck.

But either way, thinking that you have to go one or the other route is just stupid. The Royals have been rebuilding through their farm system for almost 20 years. How has that worked, eh?

Thought so.

Sabean was the laughing stock of baseball for several years.

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2013, 10:37 AM
Oh please, the Giants GM, Brian Sabean had been under fire from fans for YEARS because of his shotty record of finding talent. That deal he gave to Barry Zito was, for most of it, a worse bust than Adam Dunn.

They just got lucky and had a few things go right and it worked. What people don't like to admit about baseball is that, at the front office level, it's more or less 99% luck.

But either way, thinking that you have to go one or the other route is just stupid. The Royals have been rebuilding through their farm system for almost 20 years. How has that worked, eh?

Thought so.

That is about 100% false. At the front office level it's about scouting and being able to develop talent, that's not luck.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2013, 12:30 PM
5187:

I think there is some 'luck' involved from time to time that's the random nature of things but I agree with your statement overall...luck, as Branch Rickey said, is the residue of design.

Or put another way, you makeyour own luck as many successful people seem to believe.

Getting talent and developing it are probably the biggest factors, be that at the minor league or major league level.

There's no one way to get talent but ultimately talent is what drives the engine.

Lip

doublem23
06-18-2013, 12:36 PM
That is about 100% false. At the front office level it's about scouting and being able to develop talent, that's not luck.

Yes it is

WhiteSox5187
06-18-2013, 03:02 PM
Yes it is

No, it's not. It's a whole lot of steps and luck plays a factor in it but it goes way beyond luck. Kenny Williams might have been operating on the "it's just luck!" philosophy the past few years which is why we are in the mess we are in but other organizations aren't.

doublem23
06-18-2013, 03:21 PM
No, it's not. It's a whole lot of steps and luck plays a factor in it but it goes way beyond luck. Kenny Williams might have been operating on the "it's just luck!" philosophy the past few years which is why we are in the mess we are in but other organizations aren't.

Yes they are

Tragg
06-18-2013, 03:41 PM
Luck can affect an at bat, a month, a player (Mike Trout e.g.) and a year, but to say that successful gms are just lucky is daft.