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View Full Version : Do you feel it is a lost season already?


ChicagoG19
06-16-2013, 12:54 PM
I realize that there is still a ton of baseball to go this season, but does anyone feel this is a lost season already? The defense has been horrendous, base-running blunders all the time, and I don't think anything needs to be said about the hitting. The saving grace has been the pitching, but that hasn't been enough to get us the wins. I will still continue to watch and go to games because some baseball is better than no baseball, but this team is simply not fun to watch (right now at least).

Lip Man 1
06-16-2013, 01:02 PM
It absolutely is a lost season because these stiffs show no signs of improvement.

It's now the middle of June, they have played 65 games. The offense is till putrid, the defense is worse and the stupid, mental blunders continue.

Some of these guys have been playing poorly for years, why should I think that 'suddenly' the light switch is going to come on and they are going to be something completely different from what they have been showing me?

Also from a totally bizarre perspective remember this is an 'odd' year. The Sox haven't had even a winning season in an odd year since 2005.

2007- losing season
2009 - losing season
2011 - losing season

Looks like the 'trend" is going to continue.

Lip

BainesHOF
06-16-2013, 01:48 PM
Of course it's a lost season. I'm 46 and this is the hardest Sox team to watch in my lifetime. Atrocious hitting, terrible fielding and daily blunders.

Tragg
06-16-2013, 02:15 PM
The Sox just haven't found their groove yet. They'll come around.

LITTLE NELL
06-16-2013, 02:32 PM
This could be the start of a few lost seasons. I usually go into a season with some kind of high expectations for the Sox, even with bad teams of the past there was usually some young guys to get excited about where there might be a nice future for the team but this team had no high expectations for me this season. The only player you can get excited about is Sale and you can only get so excited about a pitcher. When the only pickup in the off- season was Keppinger I knew that this season was not going to be a good one. The decent pitching we are getting is going to waste by the biggest bunch of rally killers I've seen in my many years as a Sox fan.
Like I said earlier unless JR gets the checkbook out and goes after the best free agents out there we are in for some more lost and long seasons.

kittle42
06-16-2013, 02:39 PM
I would have answered yes on March 31.

StillMissOzzie
06-16-2013, 03:54 PM
I really find it hard to hope and believe that this team will get back to .500, let alone contend.

SMO
:mad::gulp:

Bucky F. Dent
06-16-2013, 04:04 PM
Of course it's a lost season. I'm 46 and this is the hardest Sox team to watch in my lifetime. Atrocious hitting, terrible fielding and daily blunders.

As a fellow '67er, I agree on all accounts.

WLL1855
06-16-2013, 04:09 PM
Right now we are on pace for about 70 wins. Detroit will likely win over 90 (and that's with a horse**** bullpen).

Yeah. We're done. I'll watch the games but there's little to be hopeful about for the future. Just finish ahead of the damn Cubs.

RKMeibalane
06-16-2013, 04:46 PM
There are people who thought it was a lost season the day pitchers and catchers showed up for Spring Training.

SephClone89
06-16-2013, 04:56 PM
They'll at least be worth watching every fifth day.

They should have saved this abortion of a season for next year, when I'll be too distracted by the World Cup and Wimbledon (which I might actually be attending) to pay any attention to baseball during the dog days.

DirtySox
06-16-2013, 04:58 PM
It's been a lost season for quite a bit now. At least the much needed rebuild will finally come to pass. Not all bad though, still plenty of good games to watch across MLB.

nsolo
06-16-2013, 05:01 PM
The Sox just haven't found their groove yet. They'll come around.

I'll have what he's having. Make it a double.

Noneck
06-16-2013, 05:12 PM
I have felt it was lost for quite sometime.

LITTLE NELL
06-16-2013, 05:17 PM
The Sox just haven't found their groove yet. They'll come around.

I wish you were right but we just have too many guys that don't play the game the right way and haven't a clue of what it takes to win games.

Dan H
06-16-2013, 06:14 PM
I am with Little Nell. This could be the start of a few lost seasons. Unless something dramatic happens in the off season, there can be little hope for 2014 and maybe beyond. And many fans, including myself, have little faith that this organization can turn things around soon.

voodoochile
06-16-2013, 06:55 PM
I never completely give up hope until at least mid August unless the team is 15-20 back earlier than that. However, even a diehard optimist like me isn't finding much reason for hope this year. It's been a brutal first 2.5 months with no real reason to feel things will change. I'm not even watching the games all the time these days, opting for other forms of entertainment more often. Maybe I'll buy a Giants cap. I need a local team to root for and they are safe being a NL club and what the heck they are pretty good recently...

DumpJerry
06-16-2013, 07:00 PM
Define "lost."

It'll give us a great opportunity to give us a top ten, maybe top five, pick in the draft next year.

RKMeibalane
06-16-2013, 07:02 PM
I never completely give up hope until at least mid August unless the team is 15-20 back earlier than that. However, even a diehard optimist like me isn't finding much reason for hope this year. It's been a brutal first 2.5 months with no real reason to feel things will change. I'm not even watching the games all the time these days, opting for other forms of entertainment more often. Maybe I'll buy a Giants cap. I need a local team to root for and they are safe being a NL club and what the heck they are pretty good recently...

I don't know if I could root for the Giants, but I do like Buster Posey. :cool:

SOXSINCE'70
06-16-2013, 07:09 PM
It absolutely is a lost season because these stiffs show no signs of improvement.

It's now the middle of June, they have played 65 games. The offense is till putrid, the defense is worse and the stupid, mental blunders continue.

Some of these guys have been playing poorly for years, why should I think that 'suddenly' the light switch is going to come on and they are going to be something completely different from what they have been showing me?

Also from a totally bizarre perspective remember this is an 'odd' year. The Sox haven't had even a winning season in an odd year since 2005.

2007- losing season
2009 - losing season
2011 - losing season

Looks like the 'trend" is going to continue.

Lip

Hate to agree,but the proof is in the stats.Good pitching+horrible defense+god awful offense= HERE COME THE HAWKS!!

TaylorStSox
06-16-2013, 07:10 PM
This is a bad team. There's no way around it. I'm not sure what a lost season is though. There's a few reasons to watch. Can Beckham continue to turn it around? Can Flowers develop? The bat is coming around at least. I like our pitching. Can they get anything for the few assets they do have? I'll continue to watch because I'm a fan. I'll continue to stay optimistic because, for some reason, that's the type of Sox fan I am. Maybe it's a coping mechanism. I'll do my best not to cry on the internet. Nevertheless, this is a bad team, but all is not lost.

I'm not big of the "fire everyone" fan reaction. Though, there does need to be some accountability for stupid baseball. This is just a strange sport. It's the one team sport where "trying harder" can legitimately be detrimental. Hitters lose patience, swing at bad pitches and over-swing and ruin their mechanics. Fielders go for the home run and miss the cut off man. Pitchers over-throw, lose control and blow their elbows out.

Golden Sox
06-16-2013, 07:21 PM
Anybody who thinks this season isn't lost is absolutely dreaming. I still have to be positive about the future. I've always been good at spending other peoples money so here is what I'm hoping for. I'm thinking the White Sox won't have the salaries of Floyd, Konerko and Thornton next year. I 'm also thinking that Dunn and the Tank won't be on the team in 2014. I'm hoping JR opens up his checkbook for the following 3 free agents: Jacob Ellsbury, Brian McCann and most of all Kendrys Morales. Just adding these 3 players on this team will put us back in contention next year. Our pitching is good enough for the White Sox to contend next year. Rather than trade any of our pitchers, wouldn't it be easier to sign the 3 players I just mentioned?

Noneck
06-16-2013, 07:36 PM
I'm hoping JR opens up his checkbook for the following 3 free agents: Jacob Ellsbury, Brian McCann and most of all Kendrys Morales. Just adding these 3 players on this team will put us back in contention next year. Our pitching is good enough for the White Sox to contend next year. Rather than trade any of our pitchers, wouldn't it be easier to sign the 3 players I just mentioned?

Considering the past and the Sox lack of FA signings I doubt they would do this. If for some reason they would change their philosophy, would these players want to come to Sox? Would the Sox have to to overpay? I think they would and even then, would they want to come here?

LITTLE NELL
06-16-2013, 07:41 PM
Considering the past and the Sox lack of FA signings I doubt they would do this. If for some reason they would change their philosophy, would these players want to come to Sox? Would the Sox have to to overpay? I think they would and even then, would they want to come here?

If the money is right, anybody will go anywhere.
If JR doesn't open up the checkbook USCF is going to be a ghost town for awhile.

Noneck
06-16-2013, 07:43 PM
If the money is right, anybody will go anywhere.


First paying big money for FAs and then grossly overpaying, that is only a dream.

Noneck
06-16-2013, 07:45 PM
If JR doesn't open up the checkbook USCF is going to be a ghost town for awhile.


And he wont pay rent and he'll make money, he always does.

ChicagoG19
06-16-2013, 07:57 PM
I saw a few posters asking for the definition of "lost". My definition of "lost" is not making the playoffs and that was my original intention with this thread.

gobears1987
06-16-2013, 08:22 PM
The real shame about this season is that there is no general plan on what is next. This team needs to absolutely be going full out to acquire prospects for rebuilding, yet we are just seeing more of the same.

gobears1987
06-16-2013, 08:23 PM
If the money is right, anybody will go anywhere.
If JR doesn't open up the checkbook USCF is going to be a ghost town for awhile.

Opening up the check book is what got this team into the mess it is in. I'm all for paying players, but it needs to be done correctly. No more ****ing Adam Dunn's.

ChicagoG19
06-16-2013, 08:31 PM
Opening up the check book is what got this team into the mess it is in. I'm all for paying players, but it needs to be done correctly. No more ****ing Adam Dunn's.
Most analysts and fans thought the Dunn signing was great at the time. It just hasn't worked out.

Iron Dragon2
06-16-2013, 08:43 PM
LOL! 67-1-1 when I voted. I've never seen a poll so one-sided. They just lost the first 3 in Houston. This team sucks.

Frater Perdurabo
06-16-2013, 08:50 PM
I'm all for dumping our veterans for prospects, but Hahn shouldn't just dump them to the first buyer just to satisfy the unthinking knee-jerk faction. He should hold out for the best return possible.

Also, while it would be tempting to trying to acquire "hitters," Hahn would be better served acquiring position players who can field their positions well and execute fielding and hitting fundamentals.

Finally, Sale should be untouchable.

Tragg
06-16-2013, 09:00 PM
I'm all for dumping our veterans for prospects, but Hahn shouldn't just dump them to the first buyer just to satisfy the unthinking knee-jerk faction. He should hold out for the best return possible.

Also, while it would be tempting to trying to acquire "hitters," Hahn would be better served acquiring position players who can field their positions well and execute fielding and hitting fundamentals.

Finally, Sale should be untouchable.
When does he become a free agent?
Agree 100% with the rest.

Noneck
06-16-2013, 09:09 PM
Finally, Sale should be untouchable.

If thats the case then you wont get much for the few guys that actually have some worth.

Noneck
06-16-2013, 09:16 PM
I'm all for dumping our veterans for prospects, but Hahn shouldn't just dump them to the first buyer just to satisfy the unthinking knee-jerk faction. He should hold out for the best return possible.



These veterans you speak of have very little worth. Rios probably has the most and that wont be a top level prospect. Crain, Thornton, are both aging and FAs, they wont get you much, Dunn, Paul, Ramirez, DeAza, J. Danks get you nothing. Peavy maybe in off season if he has a good last 2 months. Its between a rock and a hard place time.

cv sox fan
06-16-2013, 09:18 PM
i blame kenny for a lot of this debacle but hahn gets some blame flowers as every day catcher and keppinger at third both of these guy stink. heres my 2 cents. pk. is done,dunn just sucks were still waiting on beckham,alexi could be brilliant but has head the sun won't shine left field experiment needs to get sent down or traded, center fielder couldn't be a back up on a good club rios i just wish he would hustle but i think he is frustrated, starting pitching has been good we have two good guys in the bullpen. i think they lose near 100 games. there mental weakness and lack of discipline no hustle and no hitting thats on robin and staff.iwould trade any of them except sale.

Frater Perdurabo
06-16-2013, 09:34 PM
Sale just signed a long-term deal. He won't hit free agency for years.

Trading your young, cost-controlled ace pitcher isn't the only way to fix the mess, and makes the mess worse definitely in the short term, and likely in the long term as well. It would be like the 1989 Sox dealing Jack McDowell.

Thankfully we have a couple more decent pitchers in the pipeline, and have done a good job producing pitchers, so the "pitcher development system" doesn't need an overhaul.

But we need to fix our position player development system. Build through the draft, and develop draftees better. Augment with international signings.

While waiting for the system to produce players, sign/trade for stopgap position players who can field their positions well.

Tragg
06-16-2013, 09:54 PM
These veterans you speak of have very little worth. Rios probably has the most and that wont be a top level prospect. Crain, Thornton, are both aging and FAs, they wont get you much, Dunn, Paul, Ramirez, DeAza, J. Danks get you nothing. Peavy maybe in off season if he has a good last 2 months. Its between a rock and a hard place time.
After Sale and Peavy, the value is in Quintana and Santiago, two capable, young, cheap, lefty starters. Just extract full value.

It's a shame Peavy's hurt - even if he recovers in time, another injury depreciated his trade value. And it's a shame Thornton is pitching poorly this year, although we should have let him go a couple of years ago at his peak.

roylestillman
06-16-2013, 09:58 PM
You know, in 2007, 2009, 2011 and this year we took some solice in the fact that some of these players would come around and play "lke the back of their baseball card" except now the back of their baseball card includes 2007, 2009, 2011 and soon 2013.

I'm at a total loss as to where the Sox go from here. I can't blame the we're too cheap crutch given payrolls in recent years. It seems to all come down to bad scouting and a philosophy that the front office could pick up former first round draft choices and former phenoms who were coming off bad years and fix 'em. What you ended up with were maddeningly inconsistent and streaky ballplayers.

In all my years of watching the Sox not only is this team the worst, but solving its problems long term just looks hopeless.

SCCWS
06-16-2013, 09:59 PM
Anybody who thinks this season isn't lost is absolutely dreaming. I still have to be positive about the future. I've always been good at spending other peoples money so here is what I'm hoping for. I'm thinking the White Sox won't have the salaries of Floyd, Konerko and Thornton next year. I 'm also thinking that Dunn and the Tank won't be on the team in 2014. I'm hoping JR opens up his checkbook for the following 3 free agents: Jacob Ellsbury, Brian McCann and most of all Kendrys Morales. Just adding these 3 players on this team will put us back in contention next year. Our pitching is good enough for the White Sox to contend next year. Rather than trade any of our pitchers, wouldn't it be easier to sign the 3 players I just mentioned?

They would be excellent additions. But most reports have McCann resigning w Atlanta. Ellsbury is a Boras guy and rumors in New England media say he will most likely not re-sign in Boston and will go to the Cubs. Not sure where Morales is rumored to.

Noneck
06-16-2013, 10:24 PM
After Sale and Peavy, the value is in Quintana and Santiago, two capable, young, cheap, lefty starters. Just extract full value.



Yes Quintana and Santiago have value but both are young and very cheap. These are the type of players that the Sox should be trying to acquire. But I dont think they could bring in more than what they currently bring to the Sox now.

Btw: I hope you had a good one and many more to come.

cards press box
06-16-2013, 10:32 PM
Most analysts and fans thought the Dunn signing was great at the time. It just hasn't worked out.

That is true -- the Dunn signing was popular at the time. And, for whatever reason, it hasn't really worked. Of course, trades and free agent signings don't always work. It doesn't mean that a team should stop making moves.

And that brings me to the question of whether this is a lost season. It is in terms of making the playoffs in 2013. But the Sox can still make progress by starting the process of making moves to infuse the system with talent. Some deadline deals may be in order. The draft seemed to go well. When some payroll comes off the roster at the end of the season, the Sox will have the opportunity to upgrade their roster, particularly in terms of offense.

It is too early to say whether 2013 is "lost" in terms of improving for the future.

cards press box
06-16-2013, 10:35 PM
After Sale and Peavy, the value is in Quintana and Santiago, two capable, young, cheap, lefty starters. Just extract full value.

It's a shame Peavy's hurt - even if he recovers in time, another injury depreciated his trade value. And it's a shame Thornton is pitching poorly this year, although we should have let him go a couple of years ago at his peak.

For what it is worth, I would not move Sale, Danks, Santiago or Quintana. Or Reed. And I am OK with the Sox having to keep Peavy. The starters (and a few regulars) are the nucleus to build around.

chaotic8512
06-16-2013, 11:07 PM
I was at the first game of the Houston series, my first Sox game in 4 years, proudly wearing my #49 Sale t-shirt jersey. This season being what it is, I've never been less excited to go to a Sox game, and that saddened me. You'd think with Sale striking out fourteen, a win would be a completely reasonable thing to expect. Well, it would be... if it weren't this team and this horrifying offense.

I vote a resounding yes. :mad:

TaylorStSox
06-16-2013, 11:19 PM
I hate speculating about trade value, but I'll do it anyway. Crain should have very good value. His age doesn't matter. Lights out set up guys are valuable to contenders. Rios should have decent value. His contract isn't bad anymore and he can help at the plate and in the field. Peavy should have good value. He's locked up for a couple more years and can still dominate. A desperate team will take the chance.

The Sox will never go into a full rebuild, but if they do, I would move both Reed and Jones. There's no point in having a good closer if there aren't games to close.

Parrothead
06-16-2013, 11:27 PM
The season was over before it started. The team stinks. They can't hit, run (they turn doubles into singles and don't know how to run the bases) or field. Besides that they are average.

captain54
06-16-2013, 11:47 PM
The Sox took a huge risk letting Aj go and gambling on Flowers being a quality everyday #1. It hasn't worked out. The other risk was hoping they could repeat 2012, and that hasnt worked out either. Bottom line, the Sox blew a lead down the stretch in 2012. It was not a successful season and things needed o b addressed but weren't, so we shouldn't be surprised.

joegraz
06-17-2013, 07:11 AM
I hate piling on, but this has been coming for a long time. KW stumbled onto a WS win (thank you very much) and inadvertently convinced JR that he could be trusted with the keys to the car. Bad player, bad GM...gee, we better promote him to VP.

The 900 pound gorilla is one Robin Ventura. You simply do not put a major league baseball team in the hands of a man who has never so much as coached a little league team. If he had, I'd argue the Sox would have made the playoffs last year.

I loved him as a player. He is a decent man. He is giving his all. He is simply in over his head.

The unfortunate reality is that, JR makes money even when the Sox suck....even when attendance sucks. There is no real incentive to improve except pride. Apparently, loyalty rates higher.

Parrothead
06-17-2013, 07:23 AM
I hate piling on, but this has been coming for a long time. KW stumbled onto a WS win (thank you very much) and inadvertently convinced JR that he could be trusted with the keys to the car. Bad player, bad GM...gee, we better promote him to VP.

The 900 pound gorilla is one Robin Ventura. You simply do not put a major league baseball team in the hands of a man who has never so much as coached a little league team. If he had, I'd argue the Sox would have made the playoffs last year.

I loved him as a player. He is a decent man. He is giving his all. He is simply in over his head.

The unfortunate reality is that, JR makes money even when the Sox suck....even when attendance sucks. There is no real incentive to improve except pride. Apparently, loyalty rates higher.

I don't know if I could blame Robin for this mess. Sure has little experience but now he has a year under his belt. What he has is a team that can't hit and that are station to station. That is a bad combo when they are not hitting HRs. As for AJ, they were going to lose with him and/or without him. Maybe they wouldn't lose as badly tho. The only good about Kenny is that he tries to win. Sure he gets pantsed a few times on trades but he tried. Over all he has been ok, no GM is perfect on moves especially when the money is tight. All the scouts should have been years ago, these guys blow big time.

Zakath
06-17-2013, 07:31 AM
The season is lost because frankly, it looks like this team has no soul. I think you can count on one hand the number of times we've had a come-from-behind win, because there's no one stepping up to rally the team when they're down.

Hate to pin it all on one move, but not resigning AJ in the off-season was big. In-season, though he was the #9 hitter, losing Beckham for nearly two months was big as well.

We're going to hang around for a while only because the division as a whole sucks. But, as someone mentioned, the schedule gets a lot tougher starting at the end of the month, and we have yet to play Detroit.

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2013, 08:51 AM
This analogy isn't perfect, but it's a useful illustration: This Sox team is roughly where the 87/88 Sox are.

Sale is McDowell. Beckham may finally be developing into a solid infield leader and hitter like Ventura. Reed is Thigpen. Carlos Sanchez, down on the farm, could be another young all-glove, zero power shortstop like Ozzie. Quintana and Santiago could be like Greg Hibbard and Eric King. Nate Jones could be Scott Radinsky.

Rios, Crain and Alexei might together net us in quantity the equivalent of what we got in quality for Harold Baines. Perhaps out of the prospects we acquire we nab a catcher or center fielder and a reliever who contribute next year. And we'll get salary relief from Paulie and Floyd's expiring contracts, which can be used to sign two stopgap outfielders and a catcher.

No, we haven't just drafted another Frank Thomas. But maybe we get a really solid hitter with our 2014 first round draft pick, and, after a lousy 2014, we draft the next Alex Fernandez in 2015.

By not trading away our young starting pitching, we could be rebounding by 2015 and competing by 2016.

Railsplitter
06-17-2013, 09:18 AM
The season is a lost cause.

I think it is interesting that for the fast fifteen years, the Sox have had two slow, lumbering first baseman/DH types, Such as Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko, Konerko and Jim Thome, or Konerko and Adam Dunn. The year the Sox won it all, Thomas was injured through most of the season.

The Sox need to develop their own players. I don't believe there is such a thing a Magic Bullet trade that turns a team into a contender for the last two months, or signing a high priced free agent will turn a team into an instant contender.

Moses_Scurry
06-17-2013, 09:19 AM
I'm of the opinion that the goal should be salary dumps. If you can unload any of Rios/Dunn/Danks/Ramirez/Crain/Peavy/Thornton/Keppinger salaries even if it means nothing but D+ prospects, do it. Call up the Angel front office. They don't seem to mind taking on bad contracts (Vernon Wells, anyone?). I wouldn't even consider the return because I can't imagine it would be much with any of those guys. Shoot for some lottery tickets in the low minors. Refrain from resigning any expiring contracts (bye PK :whiner:). Keep Sale, Quintana, Santiago, Reed unless you are blown away by an offer, and start the offseason with a clean slate. I'd like to see the type of team that Hahn can build from scratch. The team will suck for a couple years, but I can't imagine they will suck any worse than if they try fielding a team with all of the guys mentioned above.

Golden Sox
06-17-2013, 11:18 AM
A number of people seem to think the White Sox should trade their pitching for some hitters. If you trade any of the White Sox pitchers, who would do the pitching?. Pitching is harder to obtain than hitting. I still think the easiest way to contend is to keep the core of this pitching staff and then acquire some hitters in the free agent market this off season. Also the Dodgers have a glut of outfielders who they are willing to move. (Kemp and Ethier) I'm under the impression that their days in LA are coming to an end. Supposedly the Dodgers are even willing to pick up most of the money owed them. If we can acquire those guys for next to nothing plus have LA pick up the money, they would be an upgrade over our outfielders. (The Tank and DeAza.)

kittle42
06-17-2013, 12:56 PM
The season is lost because frankly, it looks like this team has no soul.

No, they just display no talent.

kittle42
06-17-2013, 12:57 PM
A number of people seem to think the White Sox should trade their pitching for some hitters. If you trade any of the White Sox pitchers, who would do the pitching?. Pitching is harder to obtain than hitting. I still think the easiest way to contend is to keep the core of this pitching staff and then acquire some hitters in the free agent market this off season. Also the Dodgers have a glut of outfielders who they are willing to move. (Kemp and Ethier) I'm under the impression that their days in LA are coming to an end. Supposedly the Dodgers are even willing to pick up most of the money owed them. If we can acquire those guys for next to nothing plus have LA pick up the money, they would be an upgrade over our outfielders. (The Tank and DeAza.)

You have to trade from strength to get anything good back. Peavy is the obvious guy, if he can come back. Quintana could net a B level prospect.

Hitmen77
06-17-2013, 01:42 PM
117-2-2. Not much disagreement on this question.

Of course it's a lost season. I'm 46 and this is the hardest Sox team to watch in my lifetime. Atrocious hitting, terrible fielding and daily blunders.

This analogy isn't perfect, but it's a useful illustration: This Sox team is roughly where the 87/88 Sox are.

Sale is McDowell. Beckham may finally be developing into a solid infield leader and hitter like Ventura. Reed is Thigpen. Carlos Sanchez, down on the farm, could be another young all-glove, zero power shortstop like Ozzie. Quintana and Santiago could be like Greg Hibbard and Eric King. Nate Jones could be Scott Radinsky.

Rios, Crain and Alexei might together net us in quantity the equivalent of what we got in quality for Harold Baines. Perhaps out of the prospects we acquire we nab a catcher or center fielder and a reliever who contribute next year. And we'll get salary relief from Paulie and Floyd's expiring contracts, which can be used to sign two stopgap outfielders and a catcher.

No, we haven't just drafted another Frank Thomas. But maybe we get a really solid hitter with our 2014 first round draft pick, and, after a lousy 2014, we draft the next Alex Fernandez in 2015.

By not trading away our young starting pitching, we could be rebounding by 2015 and competing by 2016.

I've said it before in other threads, but this is the least interesting Sox team for me since the 1986-88 era when the Sox wore the Campbell Soup C/Einhorn E caps and ownership was planning for St. Petersburg.

1989's team was fun to watch because you could see the young talent come together. Even when the Sox fielded lousy teams in the late 90s, at least they had a young talented core in Konerko, Lee, and Ordonez.

I know fortunes in baseball can sometimes turn around quickly in a few short seasons, but based on the lack of enough young talent expected to arrive any time soon, I think we're in for a lot more disappointment for the foreseeable future.

At least Sale and Reed have been worthwhile to watch. Quintana and Santiago too. But this offense and defense are just dreadful.

Moses_Scurry
06-17-2013, 01:44 PM
You have to trade from strength to get anything good back. Peavy is the obvious guy, if he can come back. Quintana could net a B level prospect.

I wouldn't have a problem trading Peavy. I don't have confidence he'll make it through a season without injury. I'd hold onto Quintana and Santiago though. The B prospect you speak of probably won't help the team any more than Quintana himself.

TomBradley72
06-17-2013, 01:49 PM
Yes- its a lost cause- and it's time to suck it up and rebuild.

Unfortunately- we are still saddled with very expensive 2104 contracts for our veterans- Dunn, Rios, Ramirez, Peavy.

Help in the minors? From the "Top 20" prospects from the White Sox website- very little help on the way for position players- a few good arms on the pitching side.

Other than Josh Phegley- there's no one at AA or AAA to get excited about. We're as bad as the Marlins or the Astros at the major league level- but without the youth/prospects.

TaylorStSox
06-17-2013, 01:55 PM
Trading Quintana for a b level prospect was certainly the strangest post of the day.

Moses_Scurry
06-17-2013, 02:00 PM
This analogy isn't perfect, but it's a useful illustration: This Sox team is roughly where the 87/88 Sox are.

Sale is McDowell. Beckham may finally be developing into a solid infield leader and hitter like Ventura. Reed is Thigpen. Carlos Sanchez, down on the farm, could be another young all-glove, zero power shortstop like Ozzie. Quintana and Santiago could be like Greg Hibbard and Eric King. Nate Jones could be Scott Radinsky.

Rios, Crain and Alexei might together net us in quantity the equivalent of what we got in quality for Harold Baines. Perhaps out of the prospects we acquire we nab a catcher or center fielder and a reliever who contribute next year. And we'll get salary relief from Paulie and Floyd's expiring contracts, which can be used to sign two stopgap outfielders and a catcher.

No, we haven't just drafted another Frank Thomas. But maybe we get a really solid hitter with our 2014 first round draft pick, and, after a lousy 2014, we draft the next Alex Fernandez in 2015.

By not trading away our young starting pitching, we could be rebounding by 2015 and competing by 2016.

I listened to almost every game of the '87 season on WMAQ (I was 14 years old). That was such a depressing team.

TomBradley72
06-17-2013, 02:22 PM
I listened to almost every game of the '87 season on WMAQ (I was 14 years old). That was such a depressing team.

And that team had Baines, Calderon, Fisk, Walker and Guillen.

2013 Sox are on pace to win 69 games- the '87 team won 77.

2013 White Sox are on track for the 100th (out of 113) ranked winning percentage in the history of the franchise. Just ahead of the 1968, 1969 White Sox, just behind the 1989 White Sox.

kittle42
06-17-2013, 03:31 PM
I've said it before in other threads, but this is the least interesting Sox team for me since the 1986-88 era when the Sox wore the Campbell Soup C/Einhorn E caps and ownership was planning for St. Petersburg.

Back then, when our starters were like Reuss, Hibbard, and DeLeon, I was 10-12 years old and used to think the Sox had a chance when they were 15 out with 16 games left. I think some folks here still think like that. :D:

Tragg
06-17-2013, 03:39 PM
This analogy isn't perfect, but it's a useful illustration: This Sox team is roughly where the 87/88 Sox are.

Sale is McDowell. Beckham may finally be developing into a solid infield leader and hitter like Ventura. Reed is Thigpen. Carlos Sanchez, down on the farm, could be another young all-glove, zero power shortstop like Ozzie. Quintana and Santiago could be like Greg Hibbard and Eric King. Nate Jones could be Scott Radinsky.

Rios, Crain and Alexei might together net us in quantity the equivalent of what we got in quality for Harold Baines. Perhaps out of the prospects we acquire we nab a catcher or center fielder and a reliever who contribute next year. And we'll get salary relief from Paulie and Floyd's expiring contracts, which can be used to sign two stopgap outfielders and a catcher.

No, we haven't just drafted another Frank Thomas. But maybe we get a really solid hitter with our 2014 first round draft pick, and, after a lousy 2014, we draft the next Alex Fernandez in 2015.

By not trading away our young starting pitching, we could be rebounding by 2015 and competing by 2016.
There are similarities but the one thing the Sox did in the late 1980s was execute some great trades. We need Peavy up and running to have some firepower do that. What we got for Bannister and Baines was incredibly important to our 1990s run. Hibbard and Melido Perez came from the Bannister trade. Sosa, Fletcher and Wilson Alvarez came from the Baines trade. We traded two players and got 5 starting players....would you take that this time around? In our dreams.
Just take your time, Hahn, and get the most out of these teams that you can.

Then there's Ivan Calderon. We made a great trade to get him, used him, and then flipped him (along with a decent middle reliever) for the great Tim Raines. Think we can pull that off this time around?

The key to that period was great, and I mean great, trading.
And for some reason, JR fired Larry Himes and Torborg and hired Scheduler and the mediocre Lamont.

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2013, 04:26 PM
There are similarities but the one thing the Sox did in the late 1980s was execute some great trades. We need Peavy up and running to have some firepower do that. What we got for Bannister and Baines was incredibly important to our 1990s run. Hibbard and Melido Perez came from the Bannister trade. Sosa, Fletcher and Wilson Alvarez came from the Baines trade. We traded two players and got 5 starting players....would you take that this time around? In our dreams.
Just take your time, Hahn, and get the most out of these teams that you can.

Then there's Ivan Calderon. We made a great trade to get him, used him, and then flipped him (along with a decent middle reliever) for the great Tim Raines. Think we can pull that off this time around?

The key to that period was great, and I mean great, trading.
And for some reason, JR fired Larry Himes and Torborg and hired Scheduler and the mediocre Lamont.

Good points on the trades. We also nailed four straight first round draft choices: McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez.

Lets wait and see how Hahn's first few drafts go, and how his first trades go. He won't get as much for Rios and Peavy as Himes did for Baines and Bannister, but he also has Crain and Thornton to deal. Also, the Cell provides a greater revenue stream than old Comiskey Park did.

Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc. And the minor league system, while under KW's direction, produced solid contributors like Rowand, Crede and Buehrle.

Therefore, I do not think the Sox are headed for a prolonged half-decade of losing.

TomBradley72
06-17-2013, 04:37 PM
Good points on the trades. We also nailed four straight first round draft choices: McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez.

Lets wait and see how Hahn's first few drafts go, and how his first trades go. He won't get as much for Rios and Peavy as Himes did for Baines and Bannister, but he also has Crain and Thornton to deal. Also, the Cell provides a greater revenue stream than old Comiskey Park did.

Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc. And the minor league system, while under KW's direction, produced solid contributors like Rowand, Crede and Buehrle.

Therefore, I do not think the Sox are headed for a prolonged half-decade of losing.

KW oversaw the minors (in different roles) for about 20 years- those 3 are not evidence that he has any real talent at building a strong minor league system.

He was good at the "under the radar" trades- not just good a the "big" moves-like Wells, Ritchie, Koch, Swisher, Peavy, Dunn, etc.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 04:44 PM
KW oversaw the minors (in different roles) for about 20 years- those 3 are not evidence that he has any real talent at building a strong minor league system.

The Sox had the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball while he was Director of Player Development.

captain54
06-17-2013, 04:57 PM
Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc. And the minor league system, while under KW's direction, produced solid contributors like Rowand, Crede and Buehrle.

Therefore, I do not think the Sox are headed for a prolonged half-decade of losing.

KW was also the guy who engineered the home run or nothing philosophy for the past number of years that got us into this mess, so I wouldn't be so quick to throw too many accolades around.. If you are gonna give him credit for the successes he gets slammed for the failures.. Of course I'm sure you'll bring up the stellar winning percentage vs the rest of the league during his tenure.

Comparing the late 80's teams to the 2013 Sox is apples vs oranges.. Back then, with 2 divisions, the Sox had some mighty competition with the A's and Twins Kirby Puckett teams... Today, shame on the Sox for competing in a division where the only real competition seems to be Detroit who practically gives away the division for the past few years...

Also shame on JR and the Sox brass for effectively putting a complete and total end to the 05 buzz.. The White Sox have the lowest average attendance of any major market franchise, at or near the bottom in fielding and offense..and are the 2nd worst team in the AL currently.. ahead of a team with 1/4 of the Sox payroll..

The alarming stats go on and on, but I won't put you or myself thru the misery... You're dreaming if you think the current ownership has any clue as to how to fix this.. I'm not saying I have any better idea, but I'm not charging people to watch a baseball team play good solid baseball and be seriously in the hunt for the playoffs in a weak division..

captain54
06-17-2013, 04:58 PM
The Sox had the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball while he was Director of Player Development.

Boy, that's gonna put some "fannies in the seats" .. as Hawk would say.

Tragg
06-17-2013, 05:00 PM
Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc.
What worries me....those haven't happened in many years. The Quentin trade was his last good one, but it wasn't a small trade, as we gave up one of our top prospects for him...in fact, that prospect ripped at least one against us in Houston over the weekend.
His fairly recent dumps of Edwin Jackson, Quentin and Santos yielded nothing.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 05:05 PM
Boy, that's gonna put some "fannies in the seats" .. as Hawk would say.

A) Who the **** cares what Hawk thinks about... anything, really

B) Most of those players went on to form the core of the 2005 team so, yeah, it does

doublem23
06-17-2013, 05:06 PM
What worries me....those haven't happened in many years. The Quentin trade was his last good one, but it wasn't a small trade, as we gave up one of our top prospects for him...in fact, that prospect ripped at least one against us in Houston over the weekend.
His fairly recent dumps of Edwin Jackson, Quentin and Santos yielded nothing.

He's also hitting .217. Calm down.

TaylorStSox
06-17-2013, 05:16 PM
This idea that Kenny spent his tenure turning us into a power or nothing team is BS. First, the park has bad effect on singles hitters. Second, he tried to get both speedy lead off hitters and fundamentally sound veterans throughout his tenure. Pierre, Erstad, Kotsay, De Aza, Lofton, Rios etc. he wasn't all that successful, but understood the necessity. Power hitters in that era were a hell of a lot easier to find than speedsters. They probably still are, but I see that changing.

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2013, 05:22 PM
KW had flaws as a GM, certainly. I think his new job gives him an opportunity to do what he does well - scouting.

Both Swisher trades in particular hurt the Sox.

I can't blame management for Peavy's detached lat or his current injury, or Dunn's struggles. However, we would not have "needed" to trade for Peavy if we hadn't dealt Gio, nor signed Dunn if Swisher hadn't bombed and had to be shipped out, leaving us without a decent LH hitter.

I oppose the "loyalty over performance excellence" philosophy of this organization, but that does not mean that current members of our management team don't have useful skills. Firing people just to satisfy the bloodlust of meatball fans accomplishes little.

I'm willing to give Hahn some time to fix the mess he inherited. I expect he will retain what we do well - develop pitchers - and use a SABR-informed approach to make necessary changes to our position player drafting and development system. And I expect he will blend KW's "scouting-informed" influence when it is warranted to do so.

TomBradley72
06-17-2013, 05:31 PM
The Sox had the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball while he was Director of Player Development.

What year?

He was in the role from 1995-2000- if he was "great" at minor league development- then we should have had a great minor leagues system by 1999 or 2000- looking at their rosters from that time period- there's really no home grown talent to point to (other than Buehrle)

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2013, 05:33 PM
What worries me....those haven't happened in many years. The Quentin trade was his last good one, but it wasn't a small trade, as we gave up one of our top prospects for him...in fact, that prospect ripped at least one against us in Houston over the weekend.
His fairly recent dumps of Edwin Jackson, Quentin and Santos yielded nothing.

I think after 2008 KW was increasingly making moves out of desperation to remain competitive. Consequently, I don't think he put enough time into scouting his own prospects/players to trade away, or the players he acquired. He also increasingly used our system to develop players to trade, and emptied out the system to acquire veterans. This is not a value statement, just an observation.

TaylorStSox
06-17-2013, 05:44 PM
I think after 2008 KW was increasingly making moves out of desperation to remain competitive. Consequently, I don't think he put enough time into scouting his own prospects/players to trade away, or the players he acquired. He also increasingly used our system to develop players to trade, and emptied out the system to acquire veterans. This is not a value statement, just an observation.

I think he as always far more concerned with what he was getting than what he was giving up. I don't necassarily think he cared about "winning" trades.

Lip Man 1
06-17-2013, 05:46 PM
Tragg:

JR fired Himes because he said on Chet Coppock's radio show that no one could get along with him. Have no idea if that's true or not since I don't know Larry.

There was also speculation which I've never been able to prove that JR was very upset with Himes when Larry refused to trade prospects for pitchers like Mike Scott during the stretch run in 1990. Torborg told me that JR called him in Minnesota to find on "what's going on" after the A's were able to get both Baines and Willie McGee at the deadline when the Sox were below them in the standings and had the first crack at them

As far as Torborg, read my interview with him. Schueler fired him basically because he wanted his own man loyal to him. Jeff was hired by Himes. I don't know if JR had to approve Jeff's firing or not.

Lip

captain54
06-17-2013, 06:04 PM
A) Who the **** cares what Hawk thinks about... anything, really

B) Most of those players went on to form the core of the 2005 team so, yeah, it does

you'd have to define "CORE" pal... you COULD say "CORE" were the players from trades with Scheuler inherited talent, or players inherited from the Scheuler era, like PK. But you won't because it won't fit your argument.

RKMeibalane
06-17-2013, 07:21 PM
you'd have to define "CORE" pal... you COULD say "CORE" were the players from trades with Scheuler inherited talent, or players inherited from the Scheuler era, like PK. But you won't because it won't fit your argument.

:rolleyes:

soltrain21
06-17-2013, 07:47 PM
It's going to be a lost five years.

TomBradley72
06-17-2013, 07:51 PM
A) Who the **** cares what Hawk thinks about... anything, really

B) Most of those players went on to form the core of the 2005 team so, yeah, it does

2005 players drafted under KW leadership-

Joe Crede (1996)
Aaron Rowand (1998)
Mark Buehrle (1998)

KW's one other play off team- 2008:

Joe Crede (1996)
Mark Buehrle (1998)

I'm also not believing any hype on what a great "scout" KW was/is. He "scouted" Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, Adam Dunn, Nick Swisher- all big duds with the White Sox and everyone one of them showed decline in the year before they came to the Sox (especially 2nd half of the year before they came over) as well as going mulitple seasons thinking Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson and now Tyler Flowers were the answers to filling voids from departed veterans.

Always grateful for 2005- but he'd never be hired by another team as a GM- he rolled the dice and pulled off some big moves- but never really showed a systematic process for building an organization for the long haul.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 08:30 PM
What year?

He was in the role from 1995-2000- if he was "great" at minor league development- then we should have had a great minor leagues system by 1999 or 2000- looking at their rosters from that time period- there's really no home grown talent to point to (other than Buehrle)

The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 08:31 PM
you'd have to define "CORE" pal... you COULD say "CORE" were the players from trades with Scheuler inherited talent, or players inherited from the Scheuler era, like PK. But you won't because it won't fit your argument.

Mark Buehrle. Joe Crede. Aaron Rowand. Jon Garland. All of them spent the majority of their minor league development in the White Sox system while KW was Director of Player Development. Do any of those names ring a bell, pal???

Dibbs
06-17-2013, 08:39 PM
This is the hardest Sox team to watch in my lifetime so far as a Sox fan. I can't stand this team and haven't watched a full game yet. I haven't even watched a full inning in over a month. I can't stand this team. Checking box scores is about the extent I will go.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 08:40 PM
I'm also not believing any hype on what a great "scout" KW was/is. He "scouted" Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, Adam Dunn, Nick Swisher- all big duds with the White Sox and everyone one of them showed decline in the year before they came to the Sox (especially 2nd half of the year before they came over) as well as going mulitple seasons thinking Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson and now Tyler Flowers were the answers to filling voids from departed veterans.

Yeah, and he also "scouted" AJ Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Scott Podsednik, Juan Uribe, and Bobby Jenks.

So yeah, look, I still really don't care if you think KW should have been shown the door, I just think it's bull**** to list a guys failures without acknowledging that for every bad transaction there's at least 1 good one, as well. Which is actually a decent ratio for a GM, you know, if you pay attention to baseball at all.

Tragg
06-17-2013, 09:13 PM
The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.

3 had decent major league careers. Not sure any reached an all-star game.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 09:17 PM
3 had decent major league careers. Not sure any reached an all-star game.

Um yeah, that's just what happens with prospects. Even the very top ones fail pretty routinely. You're aware getting 3 good careers out of 7 is actually an insanely high success rate, right?

Here's the BA Top 10 Prospects for 2000:

1) Rick Ankiel, St. Louis
2) Pat Burrell, Philadelphia
3) Corey Patterson, Cubs
4) Vernon Wells, Toronto
5) Nick Johnson, Yankees
6) Ruben Mateo, Texas
7) Sean Burroughs, San Diego
8) Rafeal Furcal, Atlanta
9) Ryan Anderson, Seattle
10) John Patterson, Arizona

1 decent player out of the Top 10. 3 of them I can't even remember.

Tragg
06-17-2013, 09:21 PM
Um yeah, that's just what happens with prospects. Even the very top ones fail pretty routinely. You're aware getting 3 good careers out of 7 is actually an insanely high success rate, right?

Not out of the top ranked farm system it isn't. Heck we've had better returns out of our lower ranked farm systems.
What it shows is BA misevaluated.
Williams has a mixed record. But his record the last 5 years is a lot more bad than good in evaluating talent, making trades, etc.

HomeFish
06-17-2013, 09:23 PM
Much more worried that this is a lost decade. The old warhorses on the team are retiring, and I'm not sure there is anything there to replace them.

The Sox need to become much better at drafting and developing talent, and I don't see that happening yet. It can't happen overnight. It's frustrating to see teams like the Cardinals and Red Sox constantly pulling great young players out of nowhere.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 09:24 PM
Not out of the top ranked farm system it isn't. Heck we've had better returns out of our lower ranked farm systems.
What it shows is BA misevaluated.


You clearly don't follow enough baseball outside of the Sox

Tragg
06-17-2013, 09:38 PM
You clearly don't follow enough baseball outside of the Sox

Again, another barb at someone. Whatever.

Take the top farm system in baseball and tell them that this what they'll get out of their top 10 or so prospects: a good fielding 3rd baseman with injury problems who has fair power and poor average and lasts less than a decade; a starter who was average for 6 or so years, with 1 or 2 really good years; and 2 middle relievers (maybe there are 2 in there - Ginter and Rausch) and they'd be aghast.
If THAT is a good return the best prospects from the best farm system, then they darn well would be a lot more willing to trade their top prospects than they are.

Put another way - you could trade all 10 of those players and they don't equal a Chris Sale.

Brian26
06-17-2013, 09:52 PM
Buehrle was only average except for one or two years? I disagree with that.

Tragg
06-17-2013, 09:59 PM
Buehrle was only average except for one or two years? I disagree with that.

I'm talking Garland. MB wasn't on Doub's 2000 list (or I completely missed him) - but he probably should have been, I guess. He was a late call-up I think. That certainly changes the return.
But I still think some of these farm systems put out a heck of a lot more talent than that...heck we've turned out more talent than that in some years.

doublem23
06-17-2013, 10:00 PM
Again, another barb at someone. Whatever.

Take the top farm system in baseball and tell them that this what they'll get out of their top 10 or so prospects: a good fielding 3rd baseman with injury problems who has fair power and poor average and lasts less than a decade; a starter who was average for 6 or so years, with 1 or 2 really good years; and 2 middle relievers (maybe there are 2 in there - Ginter and Rausch) and they'd be aghast.
If THAT is a good return the best prospects from the best farm system, then they darn well would be a lot more willing to trade their top prospects than they are.

Put another way - you could trade all 10 of those players and they don't equal a Chris Sale.

Dude, even if you look at the Top 5 prospects in all of baseball, even those guys generally completely bust something like 1/3 of the time. If you honestly think good prospects always turn into good players, you're just not paying attention to the other 29 teams in the league.

Brian26
06-17-2013, 10:03 PM
I'm talking Garland. MB wasn't on Doub's 2000 list (or I completely missed him) - but he probably should have been, I guess. He was a late call-up I think. That certainly changes the return.
But I still think some of these farm systems put out a heck of a lot more talent than that...heck we've turned out more talent than that in some years.

My fault. I didnt catch the original reference.

captain54
06-18-2013, 12:09 AM
Mark Buehrle. Joe Crede. Aaron Rowand. Jon Garland. All of them spent the majority of their minor league development in the White Sox system while KW was Director of Player Development. Do any of those names ring a bell, pal???

Your argument is that Buehrle, Crede, Rowand, and Garland were home grown talent that formed a "core".... and that "core" was mainly responsible for 05.. There's no way to prove that's true and no way to prove its not true, so basically it's meaningless to even bring that up unless you want to bolster whatever point it is about how awesome KW was at bringing in and developing talent..

amsteel
06-18-2013, 12:16 AM
It's going to be a lost five years.

Nah, we'll be back competing for second place in 2015.

Frater Perdurabo
06-18-2013, 08:19 AM
Every GM has hits and misses. Thankfully KW had a period where he had lots of hits and few misses, resulting in a World Series title.

blandman
06-18-2013, 08:54 AM
Yeah, and he also "scouted" AJ Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Scott Podsednik, Juan Uribe, and Bobby Jenks.

So yeah, look, I still really don't care if you think KW should have been shown the door, I just think it's bull**** to list a guys failures without acknowledging that for every bad transaction there's at least 1 good one, as well. Which is actually a decent ratio for a GM, you know, if you pay attention to baseball at all.

Kenny Williams was a pretty decent GM at one point. I think he started buying into his own hype, making silly moves to outwit people.

I don't know for sure who's calling the shots now, but if it's Hahn he needs to be canned. The moves/decisions last offseason were probably the worst in the last few decades for our team.

blandman
06-18-2013, 08:56 AM
:tomatoaward

Golden Sox
06-18-2013, 09:19 AM
I'm told that the Dodgers want to move at least one of their 3 outfielders. Carl Crawford, Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier are available. I'm just wondering if one of them is going to playing on the White Sox this season. All 3 of those guys are making some serious money so I would think the Dodgers would have to pick up some of the money. Taking everything into account, I would think Andre Ethier would be the best fit for the White Sox. He's making less money than Kemp and Crawford and he hits from the left side. We need somebody in the middle of the lineup who can hit. I'm beginning to think you wouldn't have to give up much to get either of these 3 guys. Getting any of these players would seem to upgrade the team for this year and future seasons.

blandman
06-18-2013, 09:24 AM
I'm told that the Dodgers want to move at least one of their 3 outfielders. Carl Crawford, Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier are available. I'm just wondering if one of them is going to playing on the White Sox this season. All 3 of those guys are making some serious money so I would think the Dodgers would have to pick up some of the money. Taking everything into account, I would think Andre Ethier would be the best fit for the White Sox. He's younger and making less money than Kemp and Crawford.

I don't think anyone for big money that won't be in their prime 5+ years from now is in the plans.

TomBradley72
06-18-2013, 09:30 AM
The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.

Sorry- I just don't agree with you- 13 years ago a baseball publication ranked the farm system #1 due to guys like Myette, Ginter, Borchard and Wright- not the strongest argument.

What about the past 5 years of being ranked near the bottom?, etc

Hitmen77
06-18-2013, 10:08 AM
The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.

Mark Buehrle. Joe Crede. Aaron Rowand. Jon Garland. All of them spent the majority of their minor league development in the White Sox system while KW was Director of Player Development. Do any of those names ring a bell, pal???

I agree. I think the discussion back and forth about this is splitting hairs. The way I see it, the Sox had a top ranked farm system in 2000. If people think that means nothing, the following 2005 players were already in the Sox organization by the end of 2000 or were acquired for players that were in our organization by 2000: Crede, Buehrle, Rowand, Garland (acquired as a prospect), Garcia (acquired for Sox prospects Olivo, Morse, and Reed). I don't care how Crede, Borchard, or Wright were ranked by BA, the above names helped this team win the World Series. Being a highly ranked farm system in 2000 mattered.

Also, don't forget that the Sox drafted Carlos Lee in 1994 and called him up in '99. In 2004, he was used to acquire another key 2005 player: Podsednik.

It's not that all these guys above were total superstars. It's that they were solid, valuable players. How many guys of this caliber have come out of the Sox system in the last 12 years? Maybe Sale and Reed are a sign that things have bottomed out and we're starting to gradually produce quality players again.


I think after 2008 KW was increasingly making moves out of desperation to remain competitive. Consequently, I don't think he put enough time into scouting his own prospects/players to trade away, or the players he acquired. He also increasingly used our system to develop players to trade, and emptied out the system to acquire veterans. This is not a value statement, just an observation.

Perhaps he was getting desperate because the talent from the farm system was running dry. One of KW's talents was flipping prospects for impact players. That doesn't work when you no longer have enough valuable prospects.

I don't agree with the notion that our farm system is bad now because it was emptied out to acquire veterans players. The biggest prospect we gave away was Gio Gonzalez....and that was more than 5 years ago now. We gave up Chris Young in 2006. Other than that, it's not like the majors are full above average players who were Sox farm system products that got traded away.

blandman
06-18-2013, 10:40 AM
Again, another barb at someone. Whatever.



I don't think it was a barb. It was my assessment as well. You obviously do not watch baseball outside of our team if you think one good starting pitcher, a few serviceable long men, and a couple of pen arms over the last five years is the equivalent of the output of other teams. If that's not the worst output, it's certainly bottom five.

doublem23
06-18-2013, 12:01 PM
Your argument is that Buehrle, Crede, Rowand, and Garland were home grown talent that formed a "core".... and that "core" was mainly responsible for 05.. There's no way to prove that's true and no way to prove its not true, so basically it's meaningless to even bring that up unless you want to bolster whatever point it is about how awesome KW was at bringing in and developing talent..

The point was that of the '05 team, with the exception of Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko, every player on that roster was either developed by the White Sox when KW was Director of Player Development or acquired by them when he was GM. You guys want to pretend there's this laundry list of candidates out there to run the show with a more impressive resume than him, that's fine, I'm just telling you, there aren't as many as you'd like to think.

doublem23
06-18-2013, 12:11 PM
Sorry- I just don't agree with you- 13 years ago a baseball publication ranked the farm system #1 due to guys like Myette, Ginter, Borchard and Wright- not the strongest argument.


Prospects have much more value in their perception than their actual worth; if you want to build a team up through it's farm system, you have to understand that most of them will just burn out. Look at any old BA Top 100 list from the past decade. You'll be shocked at how many names you don't even recognize.

Tragg
06-19-2013, 02:27 AM
I don't think it was a barb. It was my assessment as well. You obviously do not watch baseball outside of our team if you think one good starting pitcher, a few serviceable long men, and a couple of pen arms over the last five years is the equivalent of the output of other teams. If that's not the worst output, it's certainly bottom five.
Except that I don't think that. I said that was a poor output for the so-called top farm system, which leads me to believe it really wasn't the top farm system, despite its ranking.

On another note, I saw this on twitter from Dan Hayes: "Rick Hahn says #WhiteSox not at point of selling yet. Might even consider additions. Would be popular if they sell." Hahn has lost his mind if he's going to go acquire more veterans, likely past their prime, for this team.

MUsoxfan
06-19-2013, 02:37 AM
Yes. And since the Cubs series

DirtySox
06-19-2013, 06:17 AM
On another note, I saw this on twitter from Dan Hayes: "Rick Hahn says #WhiteSox not at point of selling yet. Might even consider additions. Would be popular if they sell." Hahn has lost his mind if he's going to go acquire more veterans, likely past their prime, for this team.

Lip service. What is he supposed to say?

Frater Perdurabo
06-19-2013, 08:39 AM
Lip service. What is he supposed to say?

Precisely. Hahn would be stupid to announce publicly, "We're selling!"

KW often made the mistake of being too open with the media, which I think may have damaged his negotiating position on several trades.

blandman
06-19-2013, 09:23 AM
Except that I don't think that. I said that was a poor output for the so-called top farm system, which leads me to believe it really wasn't the top farm system, despite its ranking.


My bad, you were talking about Shueler's system then? We got plenty of players and trade-able pieces from that...

doublem23
06-19-2013, 09:25 AM
Lip service. What is he supposed to say?

I seriously cannot believe how many people take what the front office says to the media as truth every single time.

JB98
06-19-2013, 01:52 PM
Precisely. Hahn would be stupid to announce publicly, "We're selling!"

KW often made the mistake of being too open with the media, which I think may have damaged his negotiating position on several trades.

Agreed.

I can't believe anyone would expect Hahn to announce, "This team sucks! I'm going to blow it up." I suspect that is his plan. But he's not going to say in publicly, because that would decrease the value of his movable assets.

He has put it out there that he'll stand pat if he doesn't get the offer he wants. It's all part of creating a market for the guys you want to move. The next six weeks are important for the White Sox. Not because of anything that's happening on the field, but because you want to get some useful ballplayers in return for the veterans that will be dealt.

TomBradley72
06-19-2013, 06:44 PM
Prospects have much more value in their perception than their actual worth; if you want to build a team up through it's farm system, you have to understand that most of them will just burn out. Look at any old BA Top 100 list from the past decade. You'll be shocked at how many names you don't even recognize.

I don't need any lectures on how farm systems work- or what % of prospects actually make it.

I think KW was great for his 2005 achievement and will always be grateful.

For 2006-2012- over that 7 year span- he delivered 1, brief, play off appearance, several <.500 teams, and in the end- left behind an aging, overpaid major league roster, and one of the worst minor league systems in MLB.

Over 17 years of overseeing the farm system in different capacities- he might have been effective at the beginning (1995-2000 when he earned the incredible #1 rating from BA you keep referencing)- but after that,not much at all.

If the WSox let him go- I would guarantee he would not be hired as the GM of any other major league team-

Not after this long term track record (farm system rankings from either BA or BP)- 8 of his last 10 years 20th or lower:

2013- 29th
2012- 30th
2011- 27th
2010- 23rd
2009- 25th
2008- 23rd
2007- 24th
2006- 14th
2005- 12th
2004- 20th
2003- 15th
2002- 9th
2001- 1st

StillMissOzzie
06-20-2013, 12:45 AM
Agreed.

I can't believe anyone would expect Hahn to announce, "This team sucks! I'm going to blow it up." I suspect that is his plan. But he's not going to say in publicly, because that would decrease the value of his movable assets.

I agree with part of this, I disagree with part of this. I think that anything Hahn says in public is just that - fodder for the public. He can't publicly give up on the team YET and still expect fans to come to the ballpark. But behind closed doors, it is not a matter of decreasing the value of his movable assets. Hahn knows what they are worth, as do other GMs that really are buyers. I think he probably has the word out as to who is available, without jumping at the first offer that comes in. There is plenty of time for the true contenders to rise to the top, assess their needs, and make their best offer. Their may be injuries that put a contender into a more desperate bargaining position.


To recap, the Sox need:
Current pace 0.420 to finish 68-94 ( yay, they won't lose 100 games!)
Need a pace of 0.559 to finish 81-81 (yay, another non-losing season!)
Need a pace of 0.656 to finish 90-72 (It's gonna happen, to borrow a North side pipe dream)

Sorry for quoting myself from another thread I started, but after crunching these numbers, Hahn can publicly sit on the fence, but he has to face reality. There is no doubt in my mind that he has butts on the trading block and is waiting for the real buyers to step up.



SMO
:gulp:

DSpivack
06-20-2013, 12:52 PM
Hahn starting to sound a different tune?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130619&content_id=51144796&notebook_id=51151304&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

Tragg
06-20-2013, 01:46 PM
My bad, you were talking about Shueler's system then? We got plenty of players and trade-able pieces from that...

Specifically I was talking about the 2000 system, and the players Doub listed. The output was margainal.
The idea is that when Williams was running the farm system, as he was during Sheuler's era, it was strong, so perhaps it will be now that he's back to running it (is he?).
Williams did a good job with the system through 2008 or so; while it wasn't ranked well, he was able to trade a lot of the players for better veterans. But that hasn't been happening in the last several years.
A criticism of Scheuler is that he didn't use the system well..he kept the players down there until they petered out, instead of trading them.

RadioheadRocks
06-20-2013, 11:00 PM
Where's the "HELL YEAH" option?