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View Full Version : *Official* 6-11 Flowers Flubs; Bullpen Blows; TOR 7 SOX 5 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
06-11-2013, 11:31 PM
Thought Dunn might walk off, but it was not to be.

Lip Man 1
06-11-2013, 11:32 PM
This is why they can't put anything together. Another game urinated away.

5th time this year they lost when having a lead in the 7th inning or later.

Early opinion on Troncoso...another meatball Sox minor league pitcher.

That is all.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
06-11-2013, 11:32 PM
Tyler Flowers is not good.

Aesero
06-11-2013, 11:33 PM
New catcher please. One that doesn't try to backhand everything and can hold onto the ball at the plate.

tstrike2000
06-11-2013, 11:34 PM
Daver's ass could catch the ball better than Tyler Flowers. Alexei with another mental blunder, more errors, and just overall bad baseball.

Frater Perdurabo
06-11-2013, 11:34 PM
Tyler Flowers is not good.

Who was the last Sox catcher to be this poor defensively?

LoveYourSuit
06-11-2013, 11:36 PM
If you care about the fans, you demote/release Tyler Flowers NOW!

No excuses. Hold these *******s accountable.

Tragg
06-11-2013, 11:38 PM
I don't really blame the bullpen. Reed was pitching his fourth day in a row. Why did he pitch last night? (I guess he was warmed up for a close game so you just as soon let him pitch). The other guy is just one of those veterans who's been lousy his whole career. I don't know why the Sox love these veteran stiffs, but I can't blame him as he didn't sign himself or put himself into the game.

Ventura has got to develop more flexibility in the bullpen. Reed doesn't need to close every team. For goodness sakes don't wear his arm out and pull a Thigpen on this crappy team.

GlassSox
06-11-2013, 11:41 PM
New catcher please. One that doesn't try to backhand everything and can hold onto the ball at the plate.

Yup

DickAllen72
06-11-2013, 11:42 PM
new catcher please. One that doesn't try to backhand everything and can hold onto the ball at the plate.

yup

+1.

mahagga73
06-11-2013, 11:43 PM
Daver's ass could catch the ball better than Tyler Flowers. Alexei with another mental blunder, more errors, and just overall bad baseball.

Alexei has pulled that stunt many times, he's so scared of getting hit by the baserunner most the time he catches the ball on the third base side thus eliminating any chance of a throw out. Tonight , he once again took his eye of the ball and dropped it for fear of being hit by the runner. He's been doing the same thing for years. At this point I would trade him for a bag of used baseballs if they had anything better.

ChiSoxGal85
06-11-2013, 11:46 PM
Alexei dropping that throw to 2nd didn't help matters, but I'm rapidly losing patience with Flowers. Two passed balls leading to two runs directly contributed to the loss today.

Reed left a pitch up and a very good hitter took advantage of it. It happens.

mahagga73
06-11-2013, 11:49 PM
Alexei dropping that throw to 2nd didn't help matters, but I'm rapidly losing patience with Flowers. Two passed balls leading to two runs directly contributed to the loss today.

Reed left a pitch up and a very good hitter took advantage of it. It happens.

Reed has been used a lot lately and that pitch was up but there's 2 or 3 players in the league that could hit that out .

BainesHOF
06-11-2013, 11:51 PM
Why was Beckham in the lineup tonight? He forgot how many outs there were last night in committing one of his baserunning blunders. Nobody is ever held accountable.

More nonsense from Ramirez.

More clown catching from Flowers.

"This is hard to watch," Hawk said.

Rick Hahn is choking big-time.

shingo10
06-11-2013, 11:53 PM
Bases loaded, nobody out, and we can't get one single run.

Then add on all the crap mental mistakes/defensive errors and we got exactly what we deserved.

Alexei has that Carlos Lee syndrome. He is definitely talented but there is something there that just doesn't quite click. Unfortunately we don't have any better options. Maybe Anderson someday. Until then its just spinning our wheels.

LoveYourSuit
06-11-2013, 11:55 PM
Why was Beckham in the lineup tonight? He forgot how many outs there were last night in committing one of his baserunning blunders. Nobody is ever held accountable.

More nonsense from Ramirez.

More clown catching from Flowers.

"This is hard to watch," Hawk said.

Rick Hahn is choking big-time.

If you have Hawk talking negative and turning on the Sox, Reinsdorf needs to be getting a bit uncomfortable.

Hawk has been the company mouthpiece for JR for a very long time.

slavko
06-11-2013, 11:57 PM
Why was Beckham in the lineup tonight? He forgot how many outs there were last night in committing one of his baserunning blunders. Nobody is ever held accountable.

More nonsense from Ramirez.

More clown catching from Flowers.

"This is hard to watch," Hawk said.

Rick Hahn is choking big-time.

Who called for a slider to Bautista when high heat would have ended the game? (see above) Dunn had the right idea when he grounded out to end the game. If he hits a ground ball down the line, two runs score and you have a tie game.

Yo soy muy Troncoso. (If it's not a word, it oughta be.)

mahagga73
06-11-2013, 11:59 PM
Bases loaded, nobody out, and we can't get one single run.

Then add on all the crap mental mistakes/defensive errors and we got exactly what we deserved.

Alexei has that Carlos Lee syndrome. He is definitely talented but there is something there that just doesn't quite click. Unfortunately we don't have any better options. Maybe Anderson someday. Until then its just spinning our wheels.
I would assume , and drafting a SS verifies it, the Sox would love to be rid of him ASAP.

Brian26
06-12-2013, 12:03 AM
Lead run on third and Flowers is trying to backhand a ball in the dirt? Meanwhile, the super secret reason AJ was supposedly let go was because he didnt want to call breaking balls in the dirt because he couldnt get to them. Who is zooming who? Brutal.

StillMissOzzie
06-12-2013, 12:04 AM
Bases loaded with nobody out and can't even get a sac fly.

Too many errors, too much Flowers.

Damn it, this team gets harder to watch every day.

SMO
:gulp:

Noneck
06-12-2013, 12:08 AM
I would assume , and drafting a SS verifies it, the Sox would love to be rid of him ASAP.
The way hes been playing will make him a tough dump at about 23M for the next 2 1/2 years.

Soxman219
06-12-2013, 12:30 AM
Bring up Josh Phegley, I'm sick of seeing Flowers **** up.

JB98
06-12-2013, 12:54 AM
I can't be pissed at Addison Reed. He's still 19 for 21 in saves. He didn't blow the game by walking guys or anything stupid like that. A good hitter took him deep. **** happens.

What I don't like is the asinine baserunning. Every time I look up, the Sox are making another out on the basepaths. That's embarrassing. It should have been more than a one-run lead going into the ninth.

doublem23
06-12-2013, 01:32 AM
I would assume , and drafting a SS verifies it, the Sox would love to be rid of him ASAP.

They drafted a 19-year-old, VERY raw SS who may not even stay at SS professionally. Anderson is at least 2-3, probably 3-4, years away from the Majors.

RCWHITESOX
06-12-2013, 01:33 AM
I just can't understand why Ventura puts up with this crap. Ramirez continually makes mental mistakes in the field and on the basepath. Flowers has been as bad in the field as he has been at bat. Viciedo has regressed both in the field and at bat. I wish they would move De Aza to left field and trade Viciedo or send him to the minors along with Flowers. Try and trade Ramirez and maybe move one of their pitchers to the Angels for P Bourjos and H Conger. That alone would make a huge difference.

thomas35forever
06-12-2013, 03:08 AM
Didn't see any of this game, but from all accounts, it's probably a good thing.

socko82
06-12-2013, 06:51 AM
Who was the last Sox catcher to be this poor defensively?

Wayne Nordhagen? But he was a converted outfielder. Flowers is the worst catcher in the league. If for whatever reason they don't want to bring Phegley up, find a veteran bum sitting on somebody's bench. Some one who can just be a bridge, split time with Jiminez and is not going to try to backhand every ball in the dirt. Flowers is not a major league catcher offensively or defensively.

cards press box
06-12-2013, 07:13 AM
Tyler Flowers is not good.

Can't catch. Can't hit. Am I missing anything?

Bring up Josh Phegley, I'm sick of seeing Flowers **** up.

For the long term good of the franchise, the Sox really should do this. The 2014 free agent class will have some good catchers. But to make an informed decision on whom to sign, the Sox need to know what they have in Josh Phegley. It's time to bring him to Chicago to play in the majors.

I would assume , and drafting a SS verifies it, the Sox would love to be rid of him ASAP.

It wouldn't really surprise me to see the Sox deal Alexei Ramirez at the trade deadline. He would bring value back and, as you say, they might want to go in another direction.

cards press box
06-12-2013, 07:18 AM
They drafted a 19-year-old, VERY raw SS who may not even stay at SS professionally. Anderson is at least 2-3, probably 3-4, years away from the Majors.

Obviously, if the Sox dealt Alexei, Anderson would be a solution down the line, assuming that he stayed at SS. Who would play SS in the interim? Maybe Carlos Sanchez and maybe someone not currently on the 40 man roster.

doublem23
06-12-2013, 07:43 AM
Obviously, if the Sox dealt Alexei, Anderson would be a solution down the line, assuming that he stayed at SS. Who would play SS in the interim? Maybe Carlos Sanchez and maybe someone not currently on the 40 man roster.

I'm not sure Sanchez is viewed as a legitimate option at SS (I have never seen him play, just basing that opinion on scouting reports I read). I honestly don't think there is a real SS option on this team for Alexei, it would have to come from outside the organization.

Vernam
06-12-2013, 08:52 AM
It was time for AJ to go, but I hope all the people who claimed he was an awful defensive catcher are paying close attention to Flowers, who redefines "awful" behind the plate. He has truly horrid fundamentals (as on the failed backhand on that wild pitch in the 10th) and poor hand-eye coordination (as on the passed ball in the 2nd). Even pop-ups are an adventure with him.

AJ was outstanding at blocking balls in the dirt, which is an underrated virtue especially in late innings when relievers need to wipe hitters out with sinkers low or out of the strike zone.

This isn't to hang the loss on Flowers. There's plenty of suckitude to go around. Beckham should've spent another game or two in the minors to work on his baserunning.

oldgrouch
06-12-2013, 09:38 AM
I'm not sure Sanchez is viewed as a legitimate option at SS (I have never seen him play, just basing that opinion on scouting reports I read). I honestly don't think there is a real SS option on this team for Alexei, it would have to come from outside the organization.

Have you forgotten Beckham was a shortstop and a damned good one until
the great Ozzie decided to switch him and Ramirez?

russ99
06-12-2013, 09:40 AM
A.J. is having a good year, just saying...

Bring up Phegley, he can't be any worse and that .980 OPS looks pretty tasty, even for AAA.

Kenny should admit he was duped by Flowers PED-enhanced season and a few good weeks in the AFL.

russ99
06-12-2013, 09:43 AM
Have you forgotten Beckham was a shortstop and a damned good one until
the great Ozzie decided to switch him and Ramirez?

Lack of range and a slow first step at SS was the reason he was moved, and it was an organizational decision, not one by Ozzie. Ramirez is a much more toolsy defensive SS, despite the frequent brain cramps.

IMO, they should have left Beckham at 3B.

mahagga73
06-12-2013, 09:47 AM
It's funny that when Dunn is hitting homers nobody gives him any credit , but as soon as he strikes out a few times a game it's time to dump him. He's the only hitter in the lineup that is anywhere near a 100 RBI level guy. Yeah, his average is deplorable, he hasn't even been close to living up to that contract, but the Sox would be about 15-20 under without his RBI's. I see other players as being much more of the problem than Dunn, if he is one. When they got him everyone was on board mostly, and we all knew we were getting a high strikeout, walk sometimes, homer run or bust guy. It's the average that is the mystery, as he was usually a mid 200 guy before.

Noneck
06-12-2013, 09:50 AM
Kenny should admit he was duped by Flowers PED-enhanced season and a few good weeks in the AFL.

Which season was that?

October26
06-12-2013, 09:53 AM
Who called for a slider to Bautista when high heat would have ended the game? (see above) Dunn had the right idea when he grounded out to end the game. If he hits a ground ball down the line, two runs score and you have a tie game.

Yo soy muy Troncoso. (If it's not a word, it oughta be.)

I am disappointed to learn this morning that Reed suffered a blown save. Addison has been pitching well (I think he has had two blown saves so far this year?)

I am equally disappointed to see the Sox play bad defense. Alexei is the most frustrating to watch (for me) because he can make a spectacular play and then he spaces out and makes a bad play.

Also, I am not happy with Viciedo's offense and defense so far this year. Still rooting for Dayan to get it together. Maybe I am too hard on my fellow Cubans but I know they are both talented and I hate to see them play poorly.

Looking for a good game from Sale/Sox tonight to win the series. Go Sox!

doublem23
06-12-2013, 10:10 AM
Have you forgotten Beckham was a shortstop and a damned good one until the great Ozzie decided to switch him and Ramirez?

Um, Beckham has never played SS for the White Sox

BainesHOF
06-12-2013, 10:10 AM
It's funny that when Dunn is hitting homers nobody gives him any credit , but as soon as he strikes out a few times a game it's time to dump him. He's the only hitter in the lineup that is anywhere near a 100 RBI level guy. Yeah, his average is deplorable, he hasn't even been close to living up to that contract, but the Sox would be about 15-20 under without his RBI's. I see other players as being much more of the problem than Dunn, if he is one. When they got him everyone was on board mostly, and we all knew we were getting a high strikeout, walk sometimes, homer run or bust guy. It's the average that is the mystery, as he was usually a mid 200 guy before.

Yes.

On top of what you wrote, Dunn is the MOST watchable hitter on the team. Good or bad, he's compelling, which can't be said for anyone else, with the exception of Rios.

doublem23
06-12-2013, 10:18 AM
A.J. is having a good year, just saying...

Bring up Phegley, he can't be any worse and that .980 OPS looks pretty tasty, even for AAA.

Kenny should admit he was duped by Flowers PED-enhanced season and a few good weeks in the AFL.

Yeah, except that narrative doesn't fit at all with Flowers' minor league track, he was a solid hitter for 4 seasons and cracked the BA Top 100 twice. He was much more than a flash in the pan who only had 1 successful campaign in the minors (unlike say, Josh Phegley?)

This is just the nature of prospects. We could acquire the Top 5 prospects in baseball and we'd be lucky if 1 of them turned out to be a decent, everyday MLB player. That's just the way it works.

Carolina Kenny
06-12-2013, 10:26 AM
If Flowers was any good he would have started in place of AJ long ago.

If Phegley was any good on defense, he would have been brought up already.

I don't understand JR anymore. Is his reluctance to make changes loyalty or is it just old man laziness?

Our problems start at the top of the organization and filter down to the mess we see on the field.

Come on JR, be the man you can be, or if you are too old, then get the hell out of the way, you got your WS ring you always wanted.

Let some new blood kickstart this franchise, we are an embarresment.

The Immigrant
06-12-2013, 10:28 AM
Who called for a slider to Bautista when high heat would have ended the game? (see above)

Not sure what "see above" means, but Mark Parent calls pitches from the dugout. Flowers was setting up low and away and Reed hung a slider belt-high over the plate.

Mr. Jinx
06-12-2013, 10:43 AM
which season was that?

2006

doublem23
06-12-2013, 10:43 AM
I don't understand JR anymore. Is his reluctance to make changes loyalty or is it just old man laziness?

You think he's been making the day-to-day roster moves for this team?

Mr. Jinx
06-12-2013, 10:45 AM
It's funny that when Dunn is hitting homers nobody gives him any credit , but as soon as he strikes out a few times a game it's time to dump him. He's the only hitter in the lineup that is anywhere near a 100 RBI level guy. Yeah, his average is deplorable, he hasn't even been close to living up to that contract, but the Sox would be about 15-20 under without his RBI's. I see other players as being much more of the problem than Dunn, if he is one. When they got him everyone was on board mostly, and we all knew we were getting a high strikeout, walk sometimes, homer run or bust guy. It's the average that is the mystery, as he was usually a mid 200 guy before.

You think that's bad? Just wait until Wise commits an error in the outfield. You won't hear the end of it no matter what else he does.

kittle42
06-12-2013, 11:00 AM
It's funny that when Dunn is hitting homers nobody gives him any credit , but as soon as he strikes out a few times a game it's time to dump him. He's the only hitter in the lineup that is anywhere near a 100 RBI level guy. Yeah, his average is deplorable, he hasn't even been close to living up to that contract, but the Sox would be about 15-20 under without his RBI's. I see other players as being much more of the problem than Dunn, if he is one. When they got him everyone was on board mostly, and we all knew we were getting a high strikeout, walk sometimes, homer run or bust guy. It's the average that is the mystery, as he was usually a mid 200 guy before.

Notice how people shut up the last week?

kittle42
06-12-2013, 11:02 AM
Tyler Flowers is the worst regular player on the roster. Is there any question?

Carolina Kenny
06-12-2013, 11:02 AM
You think he's been making the day-to-day roster moves for this team?

Of course he does not make day to day roster moves.
However, he sits on top of the organization that does.

JR has climbed the mountains of success during his long tenure as the face of ownership for the Sox.

It is just my opinion that I can't see his motivation at this point. I just wonder if his famous "loyalty" is just another form of laziness or rigidity.

The Sox seem so stale and so lacking in direction, I wonder if JR has the burning energy at this point in his life to reorganize this mess, or if he goes to the office to answer his mail and BS with the employees.

salty99
06-12-2013, 11:10 AM
Rick Hahn is choking big-time.

I'm curious to hear what you think Hahn should do?

doublem23
06-12-2013, 11:13 AM
I'm curious to hear what you think Hahn should do?

Catching and hitting cleanup, for starters! EARN YOUR PAYCHECK, RICK

TaylorStSox
06-12-2013, 11:45 AM
Tyler Flowers is the worst regular player on the roster. Is there any question?

Konerko

kittle42
06-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Konerko

At least Konerko has a track record.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2013, 12:46 PM
At least Konerko has a track record.

That doesn't change that he's a DH that can't hit today.

kittle42
06-12-2013, 12:57 PM
That doesn't change that he's a DH that can't hit today.

I don't disagree. Imagine the "fan backlash," mostly from mouth-drooling sports show callers, when he's traded. "I'll never go to another game again!" We root for laundry, folks - you can count the number of long-term players who have played for the same team for ages on two hands.

WhiteSox5187
06-12-2013, 01:46 PM
Who was the last Sox catcher to be this poor defensively?

I'm not sure if I have ever seen a catcher this bad defensively. Usually because one of the key attributes that teams are looking for in their catcher is an ability to CATCH the ball.

I should note that I played catcher a bit and I was worse than Flowers, so there is that.

Konerko
Pretty sure Konerko is out hitting Flowers right now.

doublem23
06-12-2013, 01:56 PM
Pretty sure Konerko is out hitting Flowers right now.

Flowers is currently hitting .222/.276/.386. Konerko is hitting .231/.298/.349. They have an OPS+ of 75 and 73 respectively.

This is a race for 9th in a 10-man field.

Catcher who can't catch and a DH who can't hit. Lordy. At least Paul has the decency to make his exit not particularly controversial. I certainly hope this is his last season and he retires as a member of the White Sox.

Tragg
06-12-2013, 02:01 PM
You think that's bad? Just wait until Wise commits an error in the outfield. You won't hear the end of it no matter what else he does.

Which is absolutely nothing, and thus people howl when he makes errors. 35 year old career .268 obp players shouldn't be in baseball.
Of course, we have several stiffs on this team - he's not the only one.

The Immigrant
06-12-2013, 02:59 PM
Imagine the "fan backlash," mostly from mouth-drooling sports show callers, when he's traded.

Who the **** would trade for this version of Paul Konerko?

The only thing he offers at this point is veteran leadership, and that's assuming he's not in Eeyore Mode at the moment.

Foulke You
06-12-2013, 03:00 PM
At least Konerko has a track record.
He has also been stinging line drives lately but has little to show for it because they have been hit into the defense. If he keeps his swing where it is, some of those line drives are going to start falling for him. I thought he looked to be washed up in April and May but the last couple weeks he has looked more "hitterish" up there.

kittle42
06-12-2013, 03:21 PM
Who the **** would trade for this version of Paul Konerko?

The only thing he offers at this point is veteran leadership, and that's assuming he's not in Eeyore Mode at the moment.

Maybe no one, so I should have stated "when he is eventually let go."

Foulke You
06-12-2013, 03:45 PM
Alexei has pulled that stunt many times, he's so scared of getting hit by the baserunner most the time he catches the ball on the third base side thus eliminating any chance of a throw out. Tonight , he once again took his eye of the ball and dropped it for fear of being hit by the runner. He's been doing the same thing for years. At this point I would trade him for a bag of used baseballs if they had anything better.
I was talking about this last night with a friend after he didn't catch the nice throw from Flowers in the 10th. He is the most timid player when it comes to contact that I've ever seen and it really hurts him as a player. He covers his head with his hands when he is trying to beat out a close play at 1B. He camps in front of 2B because he is afraid the base stealer is going to hit him. Last night's play was not made because he took his eye off the ball as soon as the runner got close to him. It is easily Alexei's most maddening trait as a ballplayer.


More clown catching from Flowers.
10 runs have directly scored due to pass balls/wild pitches this season and it is only June 12th. This is not acceptable at all.

kittle42
06-12-2013, 04:59 PM
10 runs have directly scored due to pass balls/wild pitches this season and it is only June 12th. This is not acceptable at all.

Maybe the Sox can promote a big "Chasing the Record" camapign with a big sign like Thome's HR goal.

TheVulture
06-12-2013, 05:17 PM
Notice how people shut up the last week?

Yeah, because one good week totally erases years of ineptitude.

DickAllen72
06-12-2013, 05:21 PM
It was time for AJ to go, but I hope all the people who claimed he was an awful defensive catcher are paying close attention to Flowers, who redefines "awful" behind the plate. He has truly horrid fundamentals (as on the failed backhand on that wild pitch in the 10th) and poor hand-eye coordination (as on the passed ball in the 2nd). Even pop-ups are an adventure with him.

AJ was outstanding at blocking balls in the dirt, which is an underrated virtue especially in late innings when relievers need to wipe hitters out with sinkers low or out of the strike zone.

This isn't to hang the loss on Flowers. There's plenty of suckitude to go around. Beckham should've spent another game or two in the minors to work on his baserunning.
I knew that Flowers' defense would suffer by having to play everyday. A lot of people didn't appreciate AJ's durability and how he played through a lot of pain.

I have to laugh at how many thought Flowers was going to be this big defensive upgrade over AJ. Not only has he been a defensive downgrade, he's been even worse than I thought he would be.

mahagga73
06-12-2013, 06:01 PM
Yeah, because one good week totally erases years of ineptitude.

He'a only been real bad that first year. He put up 40 90 plus last year and will probably at least equal that this year. All the Sox should be this productive . The year isn't over yet, I would think he will be about .200 ,again with better RBI numbers. If Dunn is inept what does that make the rest the team.