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View Full Version : The notion that the lineup "Needs a shakeup"


kittle42
05-31-2013, 11:00 AM
I could not agree more that, in theory, the lineup needs a shakeup, but the bottom line is that the Sox have *nothing* on the bench or the minors (except arguably Phegley, and he's not a star) to help in any shakeup. So what do you do if you're Robin/Hahn except hope you get good trade value at the deadline?

blandman
05-31-2013, 11:22 AM
The lineup does not need a "shakeup". A "shakeup" is something you do to a lineup with productive pieces that can be built around. There aren't star bats in this lineup, nor are there several lineup pieces. There's one above average bat, one decent regular bat, and 7 bats you'd squeeze into the 9 hole if they were a defensive specialist.

This lineup doesn't need a "shakeup". This lineup needs a new lineup. It isn't something that can be fixed this season, or probably even next.

Mr. Jinx
05-31-2013, 11:23 AM
Fire Kenny Williams, hope he signs with a new team, fleece him.

blandman
05-31-2013, 11:25 AM
Fire Kenny Williams, hope he signs with a new team, fleece him.

:rolling: POTW

SI1020
05-31-2013, 11:25 AM
You're right. The team is between a very jagged rock and a very hard place. In my mind, the only thing to be done is to come up with a plan for a complete overhaul of the organization from top to bottom. Even if it means several years or more of pain and suffering. This aimless drift which seems to be the current reality may lead to something even worse. I remember when "turnaround specialist" were buzzwords in the business world. That is exactly what is needed.

JB98
05-31-2013, 12:07 PM
Robin just doesn't have many options. Line 'em up in whatever order you want. There's still four or five holes in there on any given day.

kittle42
05-31-2013, 12:09 PM
Robin just doesn't have many options. Line 'em up in whatever order you want. There's still four or five holes in there on any given day.

Exactly. Sitting Dunn and bringing up Phegley and, as some have wanted, known AAA specialist Danks, will solve nothing.

Domeshot17
05-31-2013, 12:25 PM
I am with the consensus, shaking up a terrible offensive team just leaves a rearranged terrible offensive team.

You have 1 above average hitter out of 9 in Rios, everyone else is average or worse due to lack of skill, or decline in age (See PK, Dunn, Ramirez).

We build teams that are 82 win teams and hope they over achieve, sometimes they do (last year) and sometimes they underachieve (this year). It sucks, but that is the state of White Sox baseball as a whole.

SCCWS
05-31-2013, 12:29 PM
Exactly. Sitting Dunn and bringing up Phegley and, as some have wanted, known AAA specialist Danks, will solve nothing.

I don't agree. Bringing up Danks does not do much since he has had several shots at the majors. But Phegley at this point is an unknown. He is hitting the heck out of the ball at AAA so why not bring him up. It will not solve the offensive woes, but it may answer one question when the trade deadline arrives---when the Sox start dumping players, do they need a young catcher in return? If bringing Phegley up fills a hole in the rebuild, it is step one. If not, catcher is added to the shopping list at the trade deadline.

kittle42
05-31-2013, 12:32 PM
I don't agree. Bringing up Danks does not do much since he has had several shots at the majors. But Phegley at this point is an unknown. He is hitting the heck out of the ball at AAA so why not bring him up. It will not solve the offensive woes, but it may answer one question when the trade deadline arrives---when the Sox start dumping players, do they need a young catcher in return? If bringing Phegley up fills a hole in the rebuild, it is step one. If not, catcher is added to the shopping list at the trade deadline.

I do agree that they might as well bring him up, and even if he far outperforms Flowers, it barely helps the rest of the sad lineup. That's what I was trying to say, not so eloquently.

Crestani
05-31-2013, 12:38 PM
Fire Kenny Williams, hope he signs with a new team, fleece him.


Too little to late..!! This was a good idea four years ago before he signs Adam Done....Who by the way, probably didn't get an other offers close to what Williams gave him...What a freakin joke..!!:scratch:

Crestani
05-31-2013, 12:41 PM
Exactly. Sitting Dunn and bringing up Phegley and, as some have wanted, known AAA specialist Danks, will solve nothing.


Except it will bring a smile to a lot of Sox fans face...!!! (Mine especially):)

Mr. Jinx
05-31-2013, 12:52 PM
Too little to late..!! This was a good idea four years ago before he signs Adam Done....Who by the way, probably didn't get an other offers close to what Williams gave him...What a freakin joke..!!:scratch:

Coming off back to back 38 home run, 100 RBI, .260+ BA seasons, yes, the Big Donkey was absolutely going to get that deal from someone. He may have fallen completely apart with the Sox but don't think he wasn't very valuable prior to being with us.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2013, 03:42 PM
Coming off back to back 38 home run, 100 RBI, .260+ BA seasons, yes, the Big Donkey was absolutely going to get that deal from someone. He may have fallen completely apart with the Sox but don't think he wasn't very valuable prior to being with us.

Dunn was going to sign somewhere for a similar deal I would bet, but I seem to recall when he signed with Washington in 2009 and I think again in 2010 he signed late and didn't have many offers. That was surprising to a lot of baseball writers.

Harry Chappas
05-31-2013, 04:20 PM
As much as I loath the Cubs, at least they have a semblance of a plan. If Konerko is truly on the decline as his numbers suggest, we're in for a world of suffering. Old guys = bad. Young guys = worse. That's baseball purgatory.

The lone bright spot is our pitching and even that may prove to be average by the end of the year.

LITTLE NELL
05-31-2013, 04:24 PM
Dunn was going to sign somewhere for a similar deal I would bet, but I seem to recall when he signed with Washington in 2009 and I think again in 2010 he signed late and didn't have many offers. That was surprising to a lot of baseball writers.

Just looked up his season by season record, had some low BAs with the Reds but I could handle 175 Ks if he hit .265 like he did with Nats for 2 seasons, what the hell happened to him that he regressed so much.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2013, 04:46 PM
Just looked up his season by season record, had some low BAs with the Reds but I could handle 175 Ks if he hit .265 like he did with Nats for 2 seasons, what the hell happened to him that he regressed so much.

That's the million dollar question. While his average was up with the Nationals I think his strikeouts went up too while his walks went down. He was also 32 when he signed, so there were some POSSIBLE warning signs that he was declining but I don't think anyone could have foreseen that he'd struggle this much. Then again, one dimensional hitters tend to get old seemingly overnight.

mahagga73
05-31-2013, 04:58 PM
That's the million dollar question. While his average was up with the Nationals I think his strikeouts went up too while his walks went down. He was also 32 when he signed, so there were some POSSIBLE warning signs that he was declining but I don't think anyone could have foreseen that he'd struggle this much. Then again, one dimensional hitters tend to get old seemingly overnight.

Dale Murphy is who he reminds me of. He went from MVP to strikeout machine and out of baseball in a few years. Dale still hit some Home Runs but he became useless overnight.

Dan H
05-31-2013, 05:00 PM
As much as I loath the Cubs, at least they have a semblance of a plan. If Konerko is truly on the decline as his numbers suggest, we're in for a world of suffering. Old guys = bad. Young guys = worse. That's baseball purgatory.

The lone bright spot is our pitching and even that may prove to be average by the end of the year.

You're right. At least the Cubs have a plan. I think too many in the White Sox organization have been there too long, and their experience is a detriment not an asset. If some strong decisions are made at the All-Star break or off season, I'll feel better. But right now this is ship is drifting, and I don't see anyone getting it back on course.

billyvsox
05-31-2013, 08:45 PM
The idea that Robin really has no options is the same bunch of bunk that was going on in Ozzie's final year. Meanwhile around the league, team that are struggling and players that are struggling get moved down, benched or released.

Why the Sox never do it is beyond. I would be much more willing to tolerate a pathetic season if at least we did some stuff to SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!!

JB98
05-31-2013, 08:47 PM
The idea that Robin really has no options is the same bunch of bunk that was going on in Ozzie's final year. Meanwhile around the league, team that are struggling and players that are struggling get moved down, benched or released.

Why the Sox never do it is beyond. I would be much more willing to tolerate a pathetic season if at least we did some stuff to SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!!

What would you suggest? Keep in mind, of course, that Wise, Greene, Gimenez, Danks, et al., are not suitable solutions to any problem.

billyvsox
05-31-2013, 11:29 PM
What would you suggest? Keep in mind, of course, that Wise, Greene, Gimenez, Danks, et al., are not suitable solutions to any problem.

1. Alexei
2. Gillespie
3. Rios
4. Viciedo
5. Konerko
6. Phegley
7. Dunn
8. Beckham
9. Danks

This lineup cant possibly be any worse

slavko
05-31-2013, 11:41 PM
The idea that Robin really has no options is the same bunch of bunk that was going on in Ozzie's final year. Meanwhile around the league, team that are struggling and players that are struggling get moved down, benched or released.

Why the Sox never do it is beyond. I would be much more willing to tolerate a pathetic season if at least we did some stuff to SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!!

SNAP OUT OF IT assumes the problem is mental and it isn't. We're bad because we're bad, not because we're maladjusted.

Foulke You
05-31-2013, 11:47 PM
1. Alexei
2. Gillespie
3. Rios
4. Viciedo
5. Konerko
6. Phegley
7. Dunn
8. Beckham
9. Danks

This lineup cant possibly be any worse
This is pretty much where I'm at right now. I would also be DH-ing Tank against left handed starters and putting Casper Wells in LF.

Lip Man 1
06-01-2013, 12:25 AM
SNAP OUT OF IT assumes the problem is mental and it isn't. We're bad because we're bad, not because we're maladjusted.

Slavko:

I agree with your statement but just by watching the body language of the players, the continued stupid mistakes in the field and on the bases I think you can also say some of these stiffs have mentally checked out on the season and appear to be simply going through the motions.

Lip

RCWHITESOX
06-01-2013, 12:59 AM
If they decide to rebuild this team I highly suggest that they hold on to as much of their pitching as they can. Pitching is much harder to replace than hitting; just ask the Brewers or the Angels. They may not have much to trade but I would not trade Peavy unless the other team was giving up the farm.

DrCrawdad
06-01-2013, 01:57 AM
1. Alexei
2. Gillespie
3. Rios
4. Viciedo
5. Konerko
6. Phegley
7. Dunn
8. Beckham
9. Danks

This lineup cant possibly be any worse

Dunn has to sit, he won't so this is a good option.

Flowers whiffed at a 38% rate in his last stop in AAA. Believe it or not he's lowered that by 3% so far this season. But I wonder if Flowers ever checks out what Phegley is doing in AAA. How does that affect him? Does he think he's immune to a change?

Something needs to be done ASAP. A Flowers for Phegley swap couldn't hurt.

Daver
06-01-2013, 02:33 AM
Dunn has to sit, he won't so this is a good option.

Flowers whiffed at a 38% rate in his last stop in AAA. Believe it or not he's lowered that by 3% so far this season. But I wonder if Flowers ever checks out what Phegley is doing in AAA. How does that affect him? Does he think he's immune to a change?

Something needs to be done ASAP. A Flowers for Phegley swap couldn't hurt.

I don't think I will ever understand why people want to make a change to a wholly defensive position in order to add offense, I don't care if the catcher hits .099 if he can truly wear the tools.

Perhaps it has to do with a misunderstanding of what wearing the tools is as a whole, the White Sox haven't cared about it since Fisk retired.

DrCrawdad
06-01-2013, 03:10 AM
I don't think I will ever understand why people want to make a change to a wholly defensive position in order to add offense, I don't care if the catcher hits .099 if he can truly wear the tools.

Perhaps it has to do with a misunderstanding of what wearing the tools is as a whole, the White Sox haven't cared about it since Fisk retired.

I'll gladly bow to your prowess about catching. But is Flowers that much better defensively at Catcher than Phegley to overcome the difference in offense?

From what I was told about Flowers, I thought he'd be an upgrade defensively over AJ. I'm not seeing that at all. I see a downgrade defensively from AJ and a downgrade offensively as well.

Frater Perdurabo
06-01-2013, 07:43 AM
I'm also very interested in what Daver has to say about Flowers, Phegley and even Gimenez, in all aspects of what it means to wear the tools.

SCCWS
06-01-2013, 08:49 AM
I don't think I will ever understand why people want to make a change to a wholly defensive position in order to add offense, I don't care if the catcher hits .099 if he can truly wear the tools.

Perhaps it has to do with a misunderstanding of what wearing the tools is as a whole, the White Sox haven't cared about it since Fisk retired.

You need to clarify. Flowers is ranked below average in several key categories as a catcher including passed balls, stealing % and fielding %.
He is also one of the worst hitting starting catchers in baseball.

Frater Perdurabo
06-01-2013, 12:30 PM
I don't know that Jordan Danks would hit better than DeAza. But I am confident he would play better defense, while giving similar production at the plate.

Beckham will improve the infield defense. Have Keppinger back up 2B/3B/1B, DH v LHP, and pinch hit. Dunn can DH v. RHP and pinch hit.

I'm waiting for Daver's assessment before recommending changes at catcher.

#1swisher
06-02-2013, 12:33 PM
Sunday lineup

De Aza lf
Ramirez ss
Gillaspie 3b
Viciedo dh
Dunn 1b
Wells rf
Jordan Danks cf *Wise to DL*
Flowers c
Greene 2b
Sale P
https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/341241627664330752/photo/1

Lip Man 1
06-02-2013, 01:34 PM
Looks like the last four in today's lineup are automatic outs. Guess we'll see.

This lineup should clearly show everyone how awful this team is position wise right now.

Lip

LITTLE NELL
06-02-2013, 02:11 PM
Sunday lineup

De Aza lf
Ramirez ss
Gillaspie 3b
Viciedo dh
Dunn 1b
Wells rf
Jordan Danks cf *Wise to DL*
Flowers c
Greene 2b
Sale P
https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/341241627664330752/photo/1

Murderers Row.

BainesHOF
06-02-2013, 02:16 PM
One of the worst, if not the worst, White Sox lineup in the last 10 years.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2013, 02:20 PM
One of the worst, if not the worst, White Sox lineup in the last 10 years.

Watch them score ten runs today. :)

Daver
06-02-2013, 02:42 PM
You need to clarify. Flowers is ranked below average in several key categories as a catcher including passed balls, stealing % and fielding %.
He is also one of the worst hitting starting catchers in baseball.

Tyler Flowers wears the tools like my ass chews gum, but that does not disquantify my original statement.

Bobby Thigpen
06-02-2013, 03:05 PM
I don't think I will ever understand why people want to make a change to a wholly defensive position in order to add offense, I don't care if the catcher hits .099 if he can truly wear the tools.
Because most people approach actual baseball like it's a video game where you just plug someone in that can hit and don't care about his defense.

What they don't understand is that without steroids, this is becoming even more dumb than what it was before.

I don't know a ton about catching, but in your opinion, who are some of the better defensive catchers in the league today?

LITTLE NELL
06-02-2013, 03:07 PM
One of the worst, if not the worst, White Sox lineup in the last 10 years.

I think we had a better lineup with the 1970 Sox who went 56-106. At least that team had Melton, May, Aparicio, Berry and No Neck.

Mr. Jinx
06-02-2013, 03:35 PM
Because most people approach actual baseball like it's a video game where you just plug someone in that can hit and don't care about his defense.

What they don't understand is that without steroids, this is becoming even more dumb than what it was before.

I don't know a ton about catching, but in your opinion, who are some of the better defensive catchers in the league today?

So then why do we have Flowers on our team then? Not only is he a bad defensive catcher, but unlike his time in the minors he can't take steroids anymore to try and help his offensive production.

TomBradley72
06-02-2013, 04:03 PM
One of the worst, if not the worst, White Sox lineup in the last 10 years.

It's a line up = rebuilding team.

But it's not- its relatively old and filled with AAAA players like De Aza, Flowers, Wells and Greene.

And a huge has been - Dunn.

Mr. Jinx
06-02-2013, 04:12 PM
It's a line up = rebuilding team.

But it's not- its relatively old and filled with AAAA players like De Aza, Flowers, Wells and Greene.

And a huge has been - Dunn.

Don't forget the never will bes like baby Danks, Veal, and Omogrosso!

BainesHOF
06-02-2013, 04:52 PM
Perhaps Lip or historian Rich Lindberg could research this if they're a glutton for punishment. The more I think about it, the more I think today's lineup could seriously be the worst lineup the White Sox have fielded this century. Granted that's only 13 years, but it might even be the worst one for quite a bit longer than that. Some of the team's other managers also fielded some weak Sunday lineups, but this one could prove tough to beat going back a long way.

roylestillman
06-02-2013, 05:06 PM
Perhaps Lip or historian Rich Lindberg could research this if they're a glutton for punishment. The more I think about it, the more I think today's lineup could seriously be the worst lineup the White Sox have fielded this century. Granted that's only 13 years, but it might even be the worst one for quite a bit longer than that. Some of the team's other managers also fielded some weak Sunday lineups, but this one could prove tough to beat going back a long way.

I'm one of older folks on this board and with maybe the exception of a 1970's team or two, I can't remember a worse line up. We are going to look back on 2013 and laugh in about 15-20 years as to how inept the offense was and how anybody thought it could have been any different.

SCCWS
06-02-2013, 05:23 PM
I'm one of older folks on this board and with maybe the exception of a 1970's team or two, I can't remember a worse line up. We are going to look back on 2013 and laugh in about 15-20 years as to how inept the offense was and how anybody thought it could have been any different.

Trot out lineups like this too often and 5 years from now it could be the Nashville White Sox.

BainesHOF
06-02-2013, 06:46 PM
I posted this in the postgame thread, but it directly addresses this thread...Frank Thomas said during Sunday's postgame show that nobody has a plan at the plate, and that there needs to be a shakeup now or it's going to be a long June.

Lip Man 1
06-02-2013, 07:39 PM
The practical quetion though in fairness is, shake up to whom???????

I'm in favor of bringing up every minor league player who can breath and show a pulse. What do they have to lose? At least those overmatched kids will learn and the Sox can find out first hand who can possibly cut it and who can't.

It's clear there is nobody on the major league roster to go to for deadbeats like Dunn, Flowers, Wise, De Aza etc.

Lip

captain54
06-02-2013, 08:03 PM
The organization has an overblown opinion of itself. I'm certain they considered 2012 an accomplishment even though they coughed it up and didn't actually end up winning anything.

I would say begin TODAY to alter the philosophy that we need home run hitters in the lineup. At all or any cost

Hitmen77
06-03-2013, 10:11 AM
I could not agree more that, in theory, the lineup needs a shakeup, but the bottom line is that the Sox have *nothing* on the bench or the minors (except arguably Phegley, and he's not a star) to help in any shakeup. So what do you do if you're Robin/Hahn except hope you get good trade value at the deadline?

You're right. The team is between a very jagged rock and a very hard place. In my mind, the only thing to be done is to come up with a plan for a complete overhaul of the organization from top to bottom. Even if it means several years or more of pain and suffering. This aimless drift which seems to be the current reality may lead to something even worse. I remember when "turnaround specialist" were buzzwords in the business world. That is exactly what is needed.

Excellent question/point. This team sucks and it seems like they have very few options. With an awful bench and very little talent that is close to MLB-ready plus an already bloated MLB payroll, the Sox are painted into a corner. What can they do?

The previous management team of Willams and Hahn have left this organization in a huge mess. I hope the new management team of Williams and Hahn can turn things around within the next couple of years.


Fire Kenny Williams, hope he signs with a new team, fleece him.

:rolling:

#1swisher
06-04-2013, 07:29 PM
De Aza lf
Beckham 2b
Gillaspie 3b
Rios rf
Konerko 1b
Dunn dh
Ramirez ss
Danks cf
Flowers c

Chuck Garfien
Frank Thomas says he had 2 managers pick lineups out of a hat. With Sox and Blue Jays. Frank batted 2nd and 7th. They won both games.

KingXerxes
06-04-2013, 11:00 PM
A bit off topic here, but why is Ken Harrelson acting tonight like Gordon Beckham is the second coming of Charlie Gehringer?

He's been here a while and I think everybody knows what we're looking at.

Lip Man 1
06-05-2013, 12:27 AM
Hawk is reaching for any possible life preserver to this embarassment of a season.

Lip

kittle42
06-05-2013, 11:27 AM
A bit off topic here, but why is Ken Harrelson acting tonight like Gordon Beckham is the second coming of Charlie Gehringer?

He's been here a while and I think everybody knows what we're looking at.

I tell ya, if Jimenez went on the DL, he'd try to convince us that the team's biggest issue is the current lack of a backup catcher.