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View Full Version : *Official* 5-30 So mad I can't think of a good thread title...


nsolo
05-30-2013, 05:25 PM
Ok....we suck. Anyone else have a comment?

Viva Medias B's
05-30-2013, 05:26 PM
This has to be the absolute low point since 2005. We need MAJOR CHANGE and we need it now.

Crestani
05-30-2013, 05:27 PM
Go ahead boys, "tip your hat" one more time...!!! (disgusted)

Brian26
05-30-2013, 05:28 PM
This has to be the absolute low point since 2005. We need MAJOR CHANGE and we need it now.

Rewind that to 1998 when the Cubs swept us three straight at Wrigley.

skobabe8
05-30-2013, 05:30 PM
If this helps convince Hahn, KW, etc. to break this thing down and build it up, GOOD.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2013, 05:32 PM
Just a total complete cluster****.

I don't know which was worse, the dropped pop up or giving up a grand slam to a pitcher.

Hope JR, Kenny, Hahn were watching...now maybe they'll have a sense as to why fans are so pissed.

They seem to find new and creative ways to embarrass themselves on a daily basis.

DON'T STOP NOW BOYS. :angry:

Lip

Viva Medias B's
05-30-2013, 05:32 PM
If this helps convince Hahn, KW, etc. to break this thing down and build it up, GOOD.

I'm not sure I want Hahn and KW rebuilding this thing. They helped get us in this mess in the first place. I'm for cleaning house, even if it means losing for a few years as the new regime builds the franchise back up.

nsolo
05-30-2013, 05:33 PM
I guess I'll add something....I'm 57 and have been a Sox fan forever. Got that way from my Mom and Dad.

My Mom has been gone for a few years, but when she was really MAD, she'd start yelling in Polish. I'll bet somewhere in heaven St. Peter is covering his ears right about now.

I've lived through some really bad teams, but this year takes the cake. No fight mixed with dumb play. I suffer through winter here in Michigan counting the days until baseball season. Now I wonder how many days until football begins because this is just too bad to watch.

Go Blue!

Noneck
05-30-2013, 05:33 PM
Another embarrassing loss. An embarrassing performance by the stopper also. The Sox probably have hit their high water mark for the year before this series.

LITTLE NELL
05-30-2013, 05:34 PM
This has to be the absolute low point since 2005. We need MAJOR CHANGE and we need it now.

It's bad but I remember a series in 07 against the Twins that was way more embarrassing, one against the Red Sox in I think 09 was another one.
That being said It's time for a shakeup, it's time for some kind of rebuild, when all we did was sign Keppinger in the off-season I just scratched my head and said to myself what does the brain trust have in mind.

LITTLE NELL
05-30-2013, 05:36 PM
I'm not sure I want Hahn and KW rebuilding this thing. They helped get us in this mess in the first place. I'm for cleaning house, even if it means losing for a few years as the new regime builds the franchise back up.

Lets start with JR and company.

Brian26
05-30-2013, 05:41 PM
Lets start with JR and company.

The ownership witchhunt is tired. They have invested enough money to win. JR isnt the problem. The problem is with personnel on the field and the talent evaluators.

LITTLE NELL
05-30-2013, 05:42 PM
The ownership witchhunt is tired. They have invested enough money to win. JR isnt the problem. The problem is with personnel on the field and the talent evaluators.

5 post seasons in 32 years says it all.

tstrike2000
05-30-2013, 05:44 PM
Bad things happen when you can't pitch, hit, or catch. The Alexei\De Aza mental blunders continued today as De Aza blew a chance to get anything going by getting thrown out by 20 feet at second base. Of course, the slam by Wood came after we couldn't catch an infield pop-up. The only thing worse than watching the Sox right now is listening to Todd Hollandsworth on the CSN postgame.

Frater Perdurabo
05-30-2013, 05:51 PM
5 post seasons in 32 years says it all.

JR is responsible for who he employs. And it is clear he values loyalty over performance excellence. That is the problem.

I don't fault this organization's pitching philosophy.

But their ability to draft, develop and coach position players is abysmal.

sox1970
05-30-2013, 05:52 PM
JR is responsible for who he employs. And it is clear he values loyalty over performance excellence. That is the problem.

I don't fault this organization's pitching philosophy.

But their ability to draft, develop and coach position players is abysmal.

Cannot be said any better.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2013, 05:58 PM
Against two of the worst teams in baseball the Sox score 17 runs in six games.

That's bad even by their low standards.

13th in the league in hitting, dead last in the league in fielding.

7th time in the last 10 games they've scored three runs or less.

I understand this brain dead bunch doesn't give Robin a lot of room to change things but at least try to do something, even if it means putting names into a hat and drawing them out for the batting order. Billy Martin did that from time to time.

Jones and Omogrosso come into the game and promptly give up runs. So what else is new? Yet they're still on the big league roster.

Lip

Lip Man 1
05-30-2013, 06:01 PM
JR is responsible for who he employs. And it is clear he values loyalty over performance excellence. That is the problem.

I don't fault this organization's pitching philosophy.

But their ability to draft, develop and coach position players is abysmal.

Well it's part of the problem, how much depends of whom you speak to.

I was just told a few days ago with the draft coming up that JR continues to 'suggest' to his scouting people that drafting college pitchers are "a safer bet..."

The man owns the team, he can do what he wishes, but I'd think he understands that it's counter productive to hire people who supposedly know what they are doing then try to step in and ask them to do something else that they might not want to do.

Lip

Crestani
05-30-2013, 06:02 PM
The ownership witchhunt is tired. They have invested enough money to win. JR isnt the problem. The problem is with personnel on the field and the talent evaluators.


X2...I would bet Reinsdorf feels preety much like we do. His biggest problem is loyalty, which is not deserved..!! :scratch:

doublem23
05-30-2013, 06:12 PM
The ownership witchhunt is tired. They have invested enough money to win. JR isnt the problem. The problem is with personnel on the field and the talent evaluators.

Seriously, the Sox have one of the better payrolls in baseball, one of the few guys around this outfit whose pulling his weight is JR.

VeeckAsInWreck
05-30-2013, 06:14 PM
:scratch: This team is frustrating to watch. They can look good against good teams like Boston and Anaheim and then play like complete garbage against the Cubs.

russ99
05-30-2013, 06:16 PM
Seriously, the Sox have one of the better payrolls in baseball, one of the few guys around this outfit whose pulling his weight is JR.

The problem isn't the total payroll number, it's that a little extra cash spent in January goes a long way.

That the ownership continually attempts to hold to the idea of not fielding a complete team as a carrot to get fans to buy tickets and "spend in midseason" is ridiculous. Winning is the only thing that fills the park. You'd think JR would have figured that out by now.

2005, 2006 and 2010 are the only exceptions in recent memory.

doublem23
05-30-2013, 06:16 PM
It's bad but I remember a series in 07 against the Twins that was way more embarrassing, one against the Red Sox in I think 09 was another one.
That being said It's time for a shakeup, it's time for some kind of rebuild, when all we did was sign Keppinger in the off-season I just scratched my head and said to myself what does the brain trust have in mind.

The plan is obvious; Hahn is waiting out some of the larger deals on the books he inherited to expire before he starts rebuilding the roster. The Sox have something like $70 million of salaries coming off their payroll in 2013 and 2014. That's clearly what the plan is.

Doesn't do the team any good to start some half assed rebuild without any resources.

doublem23
05-30-2013, 06:19 PM
You'd think JR would have figured that out by now.

Oh come on, don't be so naive, the Sox are making crazy amounts of money, their most likely cooked accounting books shows a profit of tens of millions of dollars, you think he's holding on to the Sox for the pride? No, it's because it's a cash cow.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2013, 06:21 PM
Oh come on, don't be so naive, the Sox are making crazy amounts of money, their most likely cooked accounting books shows a profit of tens of millions of dollars, you think he's holding on to the Sox for the pride? No, it's because it's a cash cow.

I agree with that comment.

Lip

SoxSpeed22
05-30-2013, 06:40 PM
Sums up my thoughts pretty well...
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT33hxWu6b39FZoCMTpBS-fZmEX5yjIhEfzku6mX0GdJKhB1ymzIg

ChiSoxFann
05-30-2013, 06:44 PM
Well that was an awful game to be at. I picked up some cheapies on stubhub and regret taking the day off.

We snuck out in the 7th to head to the train. The Travis Wood grand slam, Viciedo's belly flop and the missed infield pop up we're bad, but DeAza get thrown out at 2nd when we're down 5 was the play where we decided to get out of there. Awful baseball :angry:

BainesHOF
05-30-2013, 06:51 PM
If this helps convince Hahn, KW, etc. to break this thing down and build it up, GOOD.

I agree. Hahn needs to make 100 percent of the decisions, though. Williams should have zero imput. In fact, he shouldn't even be in the organization. Hahn should not have to worry that Williams is looking over his shoulder whether that's real or imagined.

One of the first things Hahn needs to do is dump Williams' manager and find a real one who knows what he's doing.

SoxSpeed22
05-30-2013, 06:58 PM
The ownership witchhunt is tired. They have invested enough money to win. JR isnt the problem. The problem is with personnel on the field and the talent evaluators.I don't think JR is the biggest problem. He has spent the money, but did he put it in the right places? He put up the money to get the players, but those players haven't been worth the investment. I'll let them off for Peavy since he had a bad injury. Rios has been up and down, a lot of those big contracts haven't gotten it done. Constantly spending none of that money on the draft or international players has also hurt them in the long run. Lastly, not having much invested in scouts or coaches also contributed to this wreck.
I'm, all for new voices in the organization.

nsolo
05-30-2013, 07:02 PM
I agree. Hahn needs to make 100 percent of the decisions, though. Williams should have zero imput. In fact, he shouldn't even be in the organization. Hahn should not have to worry that Williams is looking over his shoulder whether that's real or imagined.

One of the first things Hahn needs to do is dump Williams' manager and find a real one who knows what he's doing.

I wouldn't know who that would be. Any major league caliber manager worth his salt wouldn't want to take of this team without HUGE pay. JR would not want to pay. That's why we've had the past string of managers, they were cheap.

24thStFan
05-30-2013, 07:19 PM
I don't understand why Robin isn't in the clubhouse loosing it and calling this team out. I'd be screaming, throwing chairs, breaking stuff; but then I care about White Sox baseball.

Of course, I know that temper tantrums are not the "modern" way to manage, but something, anything needs to be done.

P.S. Sorry for the rant

Noneck
05-30-2013, 07:25 PM
Well it's part of the problem, how much depends of whom you speak to.

I was just told a few days ago with the draft coming up that JR continues to 'suggest' to his scouting people that drafting college pitchers are "a safer bet..."

The man owns the team, he can do what he wishes, but I'd think he understands that it's counter productive to hire people who supposedly know what they are doing then try to step in and ask them to do something else that they might not want to do.

Lip

Lip,

That is why he hires people that he can control, some people here call that loyalty and think its an attribute.

kobo
05-30-2013, 07:57 PM
I don't understand why Robin isn't in the clubhouse loosing it and calling this team out. I'd be screaming, throwing chairs, breaking stuff; but then I care about White Sox baseball.

Of course, I know that temper tantrums are not the "modern" way to manage, but something, anything needs to be done.

P.S. Sorry for the rant
How do you know that isn't happening? None of us have a clue as to what goes on in the clubhouse.

PaleHoser
05-30-2013, 08:19 PM
The plan is obvious; Hahn is waiting out some of the larger deals on the books he inherited to expire before he starts rebuilding the roster. The Sox have something like $70 million of salaries coming off their payroll in 2013 and 2014. That's clearly what the plan is.

Doesn't do the team any good to start some half assed rebuild without any resources.

If that was the plan, why bring back Jake Peavy for 2/$29M?

I'm not ripping on Peavy. Just scratching my head about throwing that kind of money at a starting pitcher when your everyday lineup is dreadful. Last September proved that.

I don't think there is a plan.

SI1020
05-30-2013, 08:20 PM
Lip,

That is why he hires people that he can control, some people here call that loyalty and think its an attribute. The Reinsdorf era has had its ups and downs. I think you are correct in this particular observation. Jerry Reinsdorf is a self made man who came from humble roots. He reminds me of a Sinatra song. He does it his way, and that will never change.

DickAllen72
05-30-2013, 08:30 PM
Well that was an awful game to be at. I picked up some cheapies on stubhub and regret taking the day off.

We snuck out in the 7th to head to the train. The Travis Wood grand slam, Viciedo's belly flop and the missed infield pop up we're bad, but DeAza get thrown out at 2nd when we're down 5 was the play where we decided to get out of there. Awful baseball :angry:
I've been a Sox fan since 1968, but right now if someone offered me free tickets to a White Sox game I wouldn't even go unless the person also offered to drive and pay for my food and drinks. The way they've been playing I wouldn't waste a dime on them, and it's getting to the point that I don't even want to waste my time watching them on TV.

SephClone89
05-30-2013, 09:05 PM
I've been a Sox fan since 1968, but right now if someone offered me free tickets to a White Sox game I wouldn't even go unless the person also offered to drive and pay for my food and drinks. The way they've been playing I wouldn't waste a dime on them, and it's getting to the point that I don't even want to waste my time watching them on TV.

This series has been terrible, but you realize they're only three under .500, right? And before this series had shown some signs of promise. Holy overreaction. Do you really not like going to baseball games?

DrCrawdad
05-30-2013, 09:18 PM
One thing that comes thru on times like this (and in 1998) it shatters the lie put forth by Cubbie fans that these Crosstown games mean nothing to them. That lie is shattered, again.

During this "series" and previous to this, the Cubbies were regularly seeing thousands of no-shows. Expect that the loud, in your face, egotistical Cubbie fans will magically reappear at Wrigley, at least until they lose a few.

But no doubt this "huge" series win over the Sox will excite their fanbase.

Dick Allen
05-30-2013, 09:27 PM
I'd like to thank the White Sox for convincing me to spend my hard-earned dollars elsewhere this summer.

Boondock Saint
05-30-2013, 09:31 PM
This series has been terrible, but you realize they're only three under .500, right? And before this series had shown some signs of promise. Holy overreaction. Do you really not like going to baseball games?

Only eight of the team's 24 wins have come against teams over .500. Promise, my ass.

Red Barchetta
05-30-2013, 09:31 PM
I am so happy the Blackhawks distracting me from this "Cross Town Cup" crapfest. With the exception of the makeup game, I'm glad it's over.

Golden Sox
05-30-2013, 09:33 PM
If the White Sox decide to make a move soon to improve the team/offense, I would like to think they're going to trade either Peavy or Quintana for somebody who can hit, The Angels need pitching and they have some hitters who they might part with. It's obvious this team needs HITTING. Santiago can be plugged into the rotation if they trade one of their pitchers. This team isn't going anywhere with this offense. I hope this is done sooner rather than later. This season is starting to go down the tubes.

JB98
05-30-2013, 09:42 PM
Way too many mistakes out there -- both physical and mental.

I never like to lose, but I can tolerate it better if guys are playing the game right. If you're losing because you got out-pitched or out-hit, that's one thing. But the Sox are giving away a lot of games with criminally stupid play this year.

Really, that baserunning blunder by De Aza summarizes the first 51 games of the season in one play. Not the reason they lost the game, but that's just brain dead right there.

Zakath
05-30-2013, 10:03 PM
This series has been terrible, but you realize they're only three under .500, right? And before this series had shown some signs of promise. Holy overreaction. Do you really not like going to baseball games?

As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

This team in no way resembles a team that's only 3 games under .500. If anything, this team looks like the Marlins' team we just swept, which seemed like it happened a lifetime ago.

I think the biggest disappointment is the lack of anything resembling a will to fight back against frankly one of the ****tiest teams in baseball.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2013, 10:41 PM
Zakath:

In the second half the schedule gets a lot, lot tougher. I suspect by the time it's done we'll wish for the "good old days" when the Sox were only three under.

Lip

cards press box
05-30-2013, 10:43 PM
Rewind that to 1998 when the Cubs swept us three straight at Wrigley.

I agree. This was bad. The Sox have a lot of holes in their offense right now. They need to address that.

The defense has been not been good, it's true, but will get a lot better with Gordon Beckham's return.

I have said it before -- the Sox need offensive upgrades at C, CF, DH and probably 1B, too. Rios, Beckham and Viciedo are really the Sox' offensive core right now. SS and 3B are OK, but it wouldn't shock me if the Sox moved Alexei in a deal. This team will probably look much different by 2014 if not by July 2013.

BainesHOF
05-30-2013, 10:46 PM
It's time to shake things up and activate Minnie Minoso. He can bat cleanup on this team.

I bet Minnie wouldn't make the mental mistakes this team makes on a daily basis.

Zakath
05-30-2013, 10:48 PM
Zakath:

In the second half the schedule gets a lot, lot tougher. I suspect by the time it's done we'll wish for the "good old days" when the Sox were only three under.

Lip

I agree. The break in the schedule was now, when the only team we played, after Boston left town, between the end of May and the end of June who had a winning record was Oakland.

Post All-Star break, the schedule takes a nasty turn, starting off with Atlanta and Detroit. And I'm sure we're going to love the 10-day trip through Boston, New York, and Baltimore right around Labor Day.

RadioheadRocks
05-30-2013, 10:58 PM
This series has been terrible, but you realize they're only three under .500, right? And before this series had shown some signs of promise. Holy overreaction. Do you really not like going to baseball games?

You realize there's no future in making silk purses out of sows' ears...

Noneck
05-30-2013, 10:59 PM
Rios, Beckham and Viciedo are really the Sox' offensive core right now.


You do realize how extremely depressing that is?

tstrike2000
05-30-2013, 11:09 PM
You do realize how extremely depressing that is?

Especially given the fact that Beckham probably still plays better while on the DL than some of the guys currently in the lineup.

all*star quentin
05-30-2013, 11:27 PM
Peavy allowed six runs, including a grand slam to Travis Wood, over four innings.

Thanks, Peav :club:

Tragg
05-30-2013, 11:50 PM
If that was the plan, why bring back Jake Peavy for 2/$29M?

I.

Hopefully to trade him.
But today didn't help in that regard.

The last thing this team needs to do is squander resources on modest upgrades by acquiring mediocre players.

slavko
05-30-2013, 11:50 PM
You do realize how extremely depressing that is?

So depressing, I'm laughing about it. We're funny bad.

Winningugly23
05-31-2013, 12:26 AM
:scratch: This team is frustrating to watch. They can look good against good teams like Boston and Anaheim and then play like complete garbage against the Cubs.
We play up or down to the team we are playing...Texas and Boston series we looked great cubs and marlins series not great..just playing to the level of our opponent and it's frustrating to watch.

Winningugly23
05-31-2013, 12:29 AM
For the most part we all just need to relax its not even June yet...So what we wet the bed hardcore that series all is not lost....I'll bring us some luck in Seattle and we will get back on track..

Harry Potter
05-31-2013, 12:35 AM
Hopefully a brief road trip is what this team needs to forget about the past 3 days.

kufram
05-31-2013, 06:15 AM
I don't care who we lose to or who we beat for that matter. There isn't a column for that in the standings. Crosstown Cup?? Who cares?? I can't stand that we play the game by 2 different sets of rules.

That pop-up was Gillaspie's to catch but we definitely looked less than Little League on that one. It happens. 3-4 guys looking like they were tracking it and no one was within 5 feet of it when it fell for a single.

Still, Detroit lost 3 also so we're in no worse position than a few days ago.

Zakath
05-31-2013, 07:35 AM
Still, Detroit lost 3 also so we're in no worse position than a few days ago.

In terms of the standings, yes, we are no worse off. But there's no way this team, without a major attitude readjustment, competes with Detroit and Cleveland the rest of the season.

It wasn't just losing to the freaking Cubs; it's how we lost and that it seemed like we made no effort to get back into any one of those games.

Losing to Smarmy is one thing; the guy's a quality pitcher on a **** team who finally got some run support. He's 3-6, but with an ERA under 3, a BAA under .200, and a WHIP just over 1. In his 10 starts, he's given up 2 runs or less 6 times.

But you go up to Wrigley and give up 3 HR to the backup catcher? Then turn around and give up a grannie to the pitcher, right after letting a popup fall in the infield? Even on the North Side, we never had a lead in the entire series, and the Cubs scored the eventual game-winning run by the fourth inning in every game.

doublem23
05-31-2013, 08:11 AM
If that was the plan, why bring back Jake Peavy for 2/$29M?

I'm not ripping on Peavy. Just scratching my head about throwing that kind of money at a starting pitcher when your everyday lineup is dreadful. Last September proved that.

I don't think there is a plan.

You realize that's a very good deal for the Sox, right? It's a team friendly 2 year deal that doesn't include a no-trade clause, there would be no plan if the Sox DIDN'T sign him to that. First off, $29 million is not "throwing money around" in today's MLB. I know in 1980 or whatever, giving a player a $1 million contract was crazy, but in today's game, that's not a big deal. Peavy's not even one the Top 3 highest paid players ON HIS OWN TEAM. Don't pretend like it's a 7 year, $140 million contract. That would be crazy.

That said, the Sox offense was more or less respectable for most of the 2012 season. Obviously the September burnout was bad, but you were still talking about a team that, even with that awful September swoon, finished 4th in the AL in Runs Scored per game in 2012. It's easy to say in hindsight that OF COURSE the Sox offense would be bad this year, but I don't know if anyone could have predicted they'd be this bad. So even if the Sox had an average MLB offense right now, with the kind of pitching they've gotten this year they'd probably be right around neck and neck with Detroit.

That said, Peavy's deal ends at the same time Rios and Dunn's deals do, too. So the worst case scenario is he pitches another year and a half with the Sox and leaves with everyone else, his money comes off the books at the same time theirs' does. But there's no no-trade clause in his contract so you got to figure he will be an easy piece to move for prospects if it comes to that.

And finally, it's not like Peavy is blocking some up and coming golden arm in the minors. There's no blue chip pitching prospect toiling away in Charlotte or Birmingham because Peavy is still here. If he is traded, probably one of the next arms up from the minors is Zach Stewart. If the Sox had a cupboard full of quality players in the minors then yes, maybe it doesn't make as much sense to extend veterans, even at team-friendly terms, but they don't and Peavy is still pitching like one of the best pitchers in baseball.

The plan is very obvious. It makes perfect sense.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2013, 08:22 AM
Well said, Doub.

Jake Peavy's contract is among the least of our problems.

Now Adam Dunn's deal, on the other hand...

When Beckham returns, I'm inclined to "rest" Dunn more, and have Keppinger (who after an awful start is now hitting well) get some 1B/DH starts.

Viva Medias B's
05-31-2013, 09:10 AM
2PYJ_7Wngck

As far as Jerry Reinsdorf is concerned, he is loyal to a fault. We see it in how he runs both the White Sox and the Bulls, and it could be argued that has been a headwind in each team's efforts to contend. One day, I'd like JR to wake up and think he's George Steinbrenner, but no one is holding their breath waiting for that to happen.

As far as the rebuilding effort, which has to happen, it must be done free of KW's influence. Right now, KW = Pully. That is, Williams' presence in the organization could undermine whatever efforts Hahn makes in rebuilding the team.

white sox bill
05-31-2013, 09:17 AM
I'm wondering if attendance (or lack of) issues may hold this team from a complete 3-4 yr overhaul. Is keeping the Sox within 5 games of a .500 team enough to keep butts in the seats? Would losing 100 games for 2 straight yrs completly gut this team of a fan base? I guess you could argue we have issues now, wait till we rebuild. 14K a game will seem noteworthy

blandman
05-31-2013, 09:33 AM
You realize that's a very good deal for the Sox, right? It's a team friendly 2 year deal that doesn't include a no-trade clause, there would be no plan if the Sox DIDN'T sign him to that. First off, $29 million is not "throwing money around" in today's MLB. I know in 1980 or whatever, giving a player a $1 million contract was crazy, but in today's game, that's not a big deal. Peavy's not even one the Top 3 highest paid players ON HIS OWN TEAM. Don't pretend like it's a 7 year, $140 million contract. That would be crazy.

That said, the Sox offense was more or less respectable for most of the 2012 season. Obviously the September burnout was bad, but you were still talking about a team that, even with that awful September swoon, finished 4th in the AL in Runs Scored per game in 2012. It's easy to say in hindsight that OF COURSE the Sox offense would be bad this year, but I don't know if anyone could have predicted they'd be this bad. So even if the Sox had an average MLB offense right now, with the kind of pitching they've gotten this year they'd probably be right around neck and neck with Detroit.

That said, Peavy's deal ends at the same time Rios and Dunn's deals do, too. So the worst case scenario is he pitches another year and a half with the Sox and leaves with everyone else, his money comes off the books at the same time theirs' does. But there's no no-trade clause in his contract so you got to figure he will be an easy piece to move for prospects if it comes to that.

And finally, it's not like Peavy is blocking some up and coming golden arm in the minors. There's no blue chip pitching prospect toiling away in Charlotte or Birmingham because Peavy is still here. If he is traded, probably one of the next arms up from the minors is Zach Stewart. If the Sox had a cupboard full of quality players in the minors then yes, maybe it doesn't make as much sense to extend veterans, even at team-friendly terms, but they don't and Peavy is still pitching like one of the best pitchers in baseball.

The plan is very obvious. It makes perfect sense.

I agree, Peavy's deal is a steal and a great bargaining chip given there's more than a year left. If he stays healthy, we might be able to steal that blue chip pitching prospect you refer to.

kufram
05-31-2013, 09:40 AM
In terms of the standings, yes, we are no worse off. But there's no way this team, without a major attitude readjustment, competes with Detroit and Cleveland the rest of the season.

It wasn't just losing to the freaking Cubs; it's how we lost and that it seemed like we made no effort to get back into any one of those games.

Losing to Smarmy is one thing; the guy's a quality pitcher on a **** team who finally got some run support. He's 3-6, but with an ERA under 3, a BAA under .200, and a WHIP just over 1. In his 10 starts, he's given up 2 runs or less 6 times.

But you go up to Wrigley and give up 3 HR to the backup catcher? Then turn around and give up a grannie to the pitcher, right after letting a popup fall in the infield? Even on the North Side, we never had a lead in the entire series, and the Cubs scored the eventual game-winning run by the fourth inning in every game.

I stopped watching the game after the Slam because I don't waste my time watching bad baseball. Peavy is a quality pitcher and he's the one that gave up the big hit to a pitcher. But it is the standings that actually matter in the long run, not how we played for a few days. Also, I try to remember that any mlb team can beat any other mlb team at any time. Bad teams beat good teams all of the time (not that we're a good team right now). That is baseball.

Also, people were saying we couldn't compete last year all the way until September when we ran out of gas and Detroit didn't. Will we compete this year? How would I know?... I don't see the future and I can't read attitudes. I do recognize poor play when I see it, though, and I agree that THAT will have to change.

The best hope I have is that they really can't keep playing this badly. Really... they can't.

The Immigrant
05-31-2013, 10:09 AM
I had the "pleasure" of watching this game from the first row by the visitors on-deck circle. The only time I saw anything approaching enthusiasm from a Sox player was when my buddy made a Shoot the Puck comment to Konerko. That brought a big smile to his face.

What a bunch of turds.

kittle42
05-31-2013, 10:43 AM
Is keeping the Sox within 5 games of a .500 team enough to keep butts in the seats?

There are butts in the seats?

kittle42
05-31-2013, 10:44 AM
Bad teams beat good teams all of the time (not that we're a good team right now). That is baseball.

Right. We just did it to Boston!

SCCWS
05-31-2013, 10:44 AM
Way too many mistakes out there -- both physical and mental.

I never like to lose, but I can tolerate it better if guys are playing the game right. If you're losing because you got out-pitched or out-hit, that's one thing. But the Sox are giving away a lot of games with criminally stupid play this year.

Really, that baserunning blunder by De Aza summarizes the first 51 games of the season in one play. Not the reason they lost the game, but that's just brain dead right there.

Well if DeAza is in the lineup tonight, you know what management thought about the play. Now if the coach sent him, that is a different story

Chez
05-31-2013, 10:53 AM
This season is shaping up like 1997 -- White Flag Part II. Come July, we'll likely be playing uninspired ball (at or near .500) within 7 games of Detroit and the sell-off/rebuild will start.

SCCWS
05-31-2013, 10:54 AM
I have said it before -- the Sox need offensive upgrades at C, CF, DH and probably 1B, too. Rios, Beckham and Viciedo are really the Sox' offensive core right now. SS and 3B are OK, but it wouldn't shock me if the Sox moved Alexei in a deal. This team will probably look much different by 2014 if not by July 2013.

I believe it is Gordon Beckham coming back not David Beckham. The same Gordon who has hit .230 and .234 the last 2 seasons. If he is part of the offensive core, get your white flag out of mothballs. If Keppinger gets hot and Gillaspie continues to hit, hopefully Gordon is the utility infielder and late game defensive sub.

PaleHoser
05-31-2013, 11:02 AM
You realize that's a very good deal for the Sox, right? It's a team friendly 2 year deal that doesn't include a no-trade clause, there would be no plan if the Sox DIDN'T sign him to that. First off, $29 million is not "throwing money around" in today's MLB. I know in 1980 or whatever, giving a player a $1 million contract was crazy, but in today's game, that's not a big deal. Peavy's not even one the Top 3 highest paid players ON HIS OWN TEAM. Don't pretend like it's a 7 year, $140 million contract. That would be crazy.

That said, the Sox offense was more or less respectable for most of the 2012 season. Obviously the September burnout was bad, but you were still talking about a team that, even with that awful September swoon, finished 4th in the AL in Runs Scored per game in 2012. It's easy to say in hindsight that OF COURSE the Sox offense would be bad this year, but I don't know if anyone could have predicted they'd be this bad. So even if the Sox had an average MLB offense right now, with the kind of pitching they've gotten this year they'd probably be right around neck and neck with Detroit.

That said, Peavy's deal ends at the same time Rios and Dunn's deals do, too. So the worst case scenario is he pitches another year and a half with the Sox and leaves with everyone else, his money comes off the books at the same time theirs' does. But there's no no-trade clause in his contract so you got to figure he will be an easy piece to move for prospects if it comes to that.

And finally, it's not like Peavy is blocking some up and coming golden arm in the minors. There's no blue chip pitching prospect toiling away in Charlotte or Birmingham because Peavy is still here. If he is traded, probably one of the next arms up from the minors is Zach Stewart. If the Sox had a cupboard full of quality players in the minors then yes, maybe it doesn't make as much sense to extend veterans, even at team-friendly terms, but they don't and Peavy is still pitching like one of the best pitchers in baseball.

The plan is very obvious. It makes perfect sense.

As I said, I'm not ripping on Peavy. Your points are valid about fact that he's not blocking anyone and that the next arm called up would be a gas can.

But given the choice, you'd rather spend $14M on a pitcher than upgrade(s) in the lineup if the off-season? Or have it available to have the flexibility to add a bat through trade during the season that would require adding payroll?

Regarding moving Peavy for a "blue chip prospect", I don't see that happening. The Sox will have to deal for quantity rather than quality because of their lack of prospects.

Cleveland traded C.C. Sabathia and Cliff Lee in consecutive years and got nothing in return. Toronto traded Roy Halladay and got nothing but salary relief. Those are the most recent deals I can recall off-hand where a top-line pitcher was moved for prospects that has had sufficient time for the "prospects" to develop.

SoxSpeed22
05-31-2013, 11:05 AM
This season is shaping up like 1997 -- White Flag Part II. Come July, we'll likely be playing uninspired ball (at or near .500) within 7 games of Detroit and the sell-off/rebuild will start.Personally, I would be shocked if we are in second when July comes around. The pitching faltered in this series and if they don't have a good June, things could spiral out of control.

blandman
05-31-2013, 11:08 AM
As I said, I'm not ripping on Peavy. Your points are valid about fact that he's not blocking anyone and that the next arm called up would be a gas can.

But given the choice, you'd rather spend $14M on a pitcher than upgrade(s) in the lineup if the off-season? Or have it available to have the flexibility to add a bat through trade during the season that would require adding payroll?

Regarding moving Peavy for a "blue chip prospect", I don't see that happening. The Sox will have to deal for quantity rather than quality because of their lack of prospects.

Cleveland traded C.C. Sabathia and Cliff Lee in consecutive years and got nothing in return. Toronto traded Roy Halladay and got nothing but salary relief. Those are the most recent deals I can recall off-hand where a top-line pitcher was moved for prospects that has had sufficient time for the "prospects" to develop.

In retrospect, no single bat (or three) was going to be enough to save this lineup.

Lack of prospects or not, the Sox are not going to move Peavy for a list of B prospects. There's more than a year left on his deal. They hold all the leverage, and there's not a lot out there for teams looking for an upgrade.

doublem23
05-31-2013, 11:10 AM
Regarding moving Peavy for a "blue chip prospect", I don't see that happening. The Sox will have to deal for quantity rather than quality because of their lack of prospects.

Cleveland traded C.C. Sabathia and Cliff Lee in consecutive years and got nothing in return. Toronto traded Roy Halladay and got nothing but salary relief. Those are the most recent deals I can recall off-hand where a top-line pitcher was moved for prospects that has had sufficient time for the "prospects" to develop.

Not true at all. The players that the Indians and Blue Jays recieved may not have worked out well in hindsight, but that's more due to the nature of prospects. They fail at an alarming rate. Even Top prospects. But some of the names moved in those trades (Drabek, LaPorta, d'Arnaud, etc.) were top prospects at the time of their deal. Hell, Cliff Lee got the Mariners a couple of top prospects (Smoak, Beavan) for only 1/2 a year of service. And, most recently, the Brewers traded Greinke to the Angels and in return got Jean Segura, who is currently leading the NL in batting average. Or the Royals shipped the current Minor League Player of the Year to James Shields.

Moves like the Peavy deal makes a lot of sense, especially for the Sox, who seem to have had better luck scouting other teams underutilized minor leaguers than they have been at drafting and developing their own. Give a guy a team friendly deal, see if he can perform, and maybe flip him. That's going to be the way to rebuild an organization quicker than intentionally tanking and trying your luck at the Draft or in Latin America.

blandman
05-31-2013, 11:18 AM
That's going to be the way to rebuild an organization quicker than intentionally tanking and trying your luck at the Draft or in Latin America.

I don't know if it's necessarily quicker. Just like scouting other teams' prospects, the draft isn't "trying your luck". Our guys need to get better at it. We need to do both.

October26
05-31-2013, 11:24 AM
One thing that comes thru on times like this (and in 1998) it shatters the lie put forth by Cubbie fans that these Crosstown games mean nothing to them. That lie is shattered, again.

During this "series" and previous to this, the Cubbies were regularly seeing thousands of no-shows. Expect that the loud, in your face, egotistical Cubbie fans will magically reappear at Wrigley, at least until they lose a few.

But no doubt this "huge" series win over the Sox will excite their fanbase.

Great post; this one hits close to home for me as I was verbally attacked on my way home from work yesterday. I was wearing Sox gear (actually, I was carrying my Sox purse/tote bag). I was crossing the street along with a man and his young son, and they were also wearing Sox gear.

A young twenty-something punk driving his car stuck his head out the window and began taunting us. He waved his blue and red cap with the little "c" on it and proceeded to harass us. Growing up on the north side of Chicago, I have dealt with this crap for years. But what really got to me was that the little boy (around age 5-7) was visibly upset. We made it across the street and I decided to walk near the boy and his father, just to make sure he was okay. The dad did a great job of calming his son down and so I went on my way home. I wondered later how many times this scene played out in Chicago yesterday.

Regarding the game, as I said to ChiSoxGal85 yesterday, I am pretty pissed off at our Sox right now. To lose 3 games the way they did is pathetic. This entire Sox team looks flat. It is one thing not to hit, but now it is bad hitting, pitching, and defense. Awful.

I sincerely hope that the Sox can rebound from this series. I would really like to attend some games this summer and see our Sox play good fundamental baseball.

doublem23
05-31-2013, 11:32 AM
I don't know if it's necessarily quicker. Just like scouting other teams' prospects, the draft isn't "trying your luck". Our guys need to get better at it. We need to do both.

It really is, even the very top prospects fail at a pretty high rate.

blandman
05-31-2013, 11:52 AM
It really is, even the very top prospects fail at a pretty high rate.

The rate of failure is exponential as you move further down the draft. Almost every major league regular comes from the first four rounds of the draft. We aren't getting anything there compared to most teams. Some teams manage to consistently get a lot more than others. That's not luck.

SI1020
05-31-2013, 12:29 PM
A team can only help itself if it can draft well and develop the talent it drafted.

hawkjt
05-31-2013, 12:44 PM
This was an ugly series,no doubt...after winning 8 of last 9 series vs the Cubs, finally,they get their revenge.

It is like they finally got back to .500 vs the marlins last weekend,and then exhaled,and forgot how to play baseball vs the Cubs.

It is a shame.
The Tigers lose 3 of 4 to the Bucs and the Sox lose a half a game...ouch.

KingXerxes
05-31-2013, 05:18 PM
This may sound like sacrilege to some, but the Cubs maybe aren't as bad as everybody is making them out to be. My bet is they've blown about four or five games late (thanks to Carlos "I don't know where it's going" Marmol). If they had a halfway decent bullpen they'd be around .500.

Peavy, in an interview yesterday, made the point about the Cubs game on Sunday when they came back in the game against Cincinnati, and won despite trailing by four runs in the late innings. He basically said that game may very well have given the Cubs' players some confidence, and they were just rolling along with it.

I agree the White Sox offense has been anemic, but those three Cubs starters aren't complete slouches either. I also have new found respect for Peavy in that he's following what his opponents are up to prior to facing them.

It was a very bad three games, but I don't think it's the end of days. We'll see how they bounce back tonight.

Harry Chappas
05-31-2013, 05:31 PM
Great post; this one hits close to home for me as I was verbally attacked on my way home from work yesterday. I was wearing Sox gear (actually, I was carrying my Sox purse/tote bag). I was crossing the street along with a man and his young son, and they were also wearing Sox gear.

A young twenty-something punk driving his car stuck his head out the window and began taunting us. He waved his blue and red cap with the little "c" on it and proceeded to harass us. Growing up on the north side of Chicago, I have dealt with this crap for years. But what really got to me was that the little boy (around age 5-7) was visibly upset. We made it across the street and I decided to walk near the boy and his father, just to make sure he was okay. The dad did a great job of calming his son down and so I went on my way home. I wondered later how many times this scene played out in Chicago yesterday.

Regarding the game, as I said to ChiSoxGal85 yesterday, I am pretty pissed off at our Sox right now. To lose 3 games the way they did is pathetic. This entire Sox team looks flat. It is one thing not to hit, but now it is bad hitting, pitching, and defense. Awful.

I sincerely hope that the Sox can rebound from this series. I would really like to attend some games this summer and see our Sox play good fundamental baseball.

I've been there. I haven't been to a Cubs/Sox game at Wrigley since my friend and I were accosted by a group of about 20 young Cub fans. It almost go physical but we kept our cool and as we were walking away, we got the "go back to Alsip!" catcalls which was funny because I was only a few blocks from my house. Oh well...

mahagga73
05-31-2013, 05:46 PM
This may sound like sacrilege to some, but the Cubs maybe aren't as bad as everybody is making them out to be. My bet is they've blown about four or five games late (thanks to Carlos "I don't know where it's going" Marmol). If they had a halfway decent bullpen they'd be around .500.

Peavy, in an interview yesterday, made the point about the Cubs game on Sunday when they came back in the game against Cincinnati, and won despite trailing by four runs in the late innings. He basically said that game may very well have given the Cubs' players some confidence, and they were just rolling along with it.

I agree the White Sox offense has been anemic, but those three Cubs starters aren't complete slouches either. I also have new found respect for Peavy in that he's following what his opponents are up to prior to facing them.

It was a very bad three games, but I don't think it's the end of days. We'll see how they bounce back tonight.
Not sacrilege ,fact. Their run differential is plus 6 and ours is minus 26 or something. That means they have lost a ton of 1 run games and the Sox record is better than the team's actual performance , they have been lucky. People are still thinking this is last years Cubs but this years is better than that. That being said , the Sox performance in the series was still inexcusable.

cards press box
05-31-2013, 06:02 PM
You do realize how extremely depressing that is?

Sure I do and it's not currently a good situation. But right now, that's the way it is. It is, however, going to get a lot better. Hahn, I think, will be a cagey GM and will eventually right this ship. Konerko, Floyd and Thornton (I think) come off the books after this year. If Dunn ends up with 30 HR (and don't laugh, with all his problems at the plate, he is currently on pace for around 35), maybe the Sox eat some salary and deal him for the final year of his contract and get something back.

With this payroll flexibility, maybe they sign a decent hitting catcher (McCann? Saltalamacchia?) and an outfielder who can hit (Choo, Ellsbury, Granderson, Pence, McLouth and Nelson Cruz are all available). If the Sox make just those two moves, they suddenly have a much better looking offense. Imagine, if you will, this lineup, assuming that the Sox: (1) deal Dunn next offseason (eating some of his salary in such a deal), (2) bring in two of the free agents from above and someone to play 1st base from Mike Morse, Kendrys Morales, Justin Morneau or Mike Napoli (all free agents) and (4) sign one of the lesser OF on the free agent market such as Rajai Davis or Coco Crisp:

Granderson CF
Beckham 2B
Rios RF
K. Morales 1B
McCann C
Viciedo DH
Gillaspie 3B
A. Ramirez SS
Davis LF

This team would have better defense, better speed and a better bench (with DeAza and Flowers on it). The savings from dropping Konerko, Floyd and Thornton from the roster is around $27 million for next season. It would cost (in terms of 2014, only) about $40 million or so to make the above outlined moves. And, don't forget, Dunn is off the books after 2014, too.

So, cheer up, Sox fans. The South Side nine is struggling right now but as long as we have some decent pitching, the Sox should be able to straighten out this offense with a few shrewd moves.

Lip Man 1
05-31-2013, 07:17 PM
Granderson isn't going any place. The Yankees will do what's needed to keep him.

Lip

October26
05-31-2013, 07:39 PM
I've been there. I haven't been to a Cubs/Sox game at Wrigley since my friend and I were accosted by a group of about 20 young Cub fans. It almost go physical but we kept our cool and as we were walking away, we got the "go back to Alsip!" catcalls which was funny because I was only a few blocks from my house. Oh well...


Wow. How awful that you feared getting attacked after a Cubs/Sox game. But I know what you mean. Several years ago, I went to a Cubs/Sox game with my dad and absolutely hated the atmosphere. The Sox actually won that game but I did not enjoy myself. My father and I did not feel safe and we could not wait to get home from the game. Sad, really, because baseball is a game and it should be enjoyed.

And I find it ridiculous that they assumed that since you are a Sox fan, you must be from Alsip. How ignorant.

As I said in my post, I worried about that little boy and the verbal taunting he experienced. Being a mother myself, I am well aware of the bullying that goes on. I was angry to see a grown man taunt and pick on a young child. The father of the little boy thanked me for asking if his son was okay.

Golden Sox
05-31-2013, 07:53 PM
CardsPressBox: Enjoyed your post about possible White Sox moves. Lets hope some of your moves actually take place.

cards press box
05-31-2013, 08:02 PM
Granderson isn't going any place. The Yankees will do what's needed to keep him.

Lip

Lip, I am not so sure. I cannot imagine that the Yanks will not sign Robinson Cano. The Yanks re-signing Granderson is, I think, a more iffy proposition. And even if the Yanks do resign him, these outfielders are also available: Choo, Ellsbury, McLouth, David Murphy, Crisp, Rajai Davis, Pence, Nelson Cruz, Franklin Gutierrez, Carlos Beltran, David DeJesus, Mike Morse, Corey Hart and Chris Young is his 2014 option is not exercised. So there are options out there.

I think that Granderson, Choo and Ellsbury should be the Sox' top choices because they need a center fielder. And Granderson is from the south suburbs. Maybe Granderson comes here and Choo goes to the Bronx.

Lip Man 1
05-31-2013, 09:17 PM
Cards:

I like your thinking but remember it takes two to tango. At this point (unless the Sox overpay) why would any of those guys actually want to come to a team that for all intents and purposes is going to be rebuilding (whether they publicly admit it or not...)

Lip

DSpivack
05-31-2013, 09:19 PM
Lip, I am not so sure. I cannot imagine that the Yanks will not sign Robinson Cano. The Yanks re-signing Granderson is, I think, a more iffy proposition. And even if the Yanks do resign him, these outfielders are also available: Choo, Ellsbury, McLouth, David Murphy, Crisp, Rajai Davis, Pence, Nelson Cruz, Franklin Gutierrez, Carlos Beltran, David DeJesus, Mike Morse, Corey Hart and Chris Young is his 2014 option is not exercised. So there are options out there.

I think that Granderson, Choo and Ellsbury should be the Sox' top choices because they need a center fielder. And Granderson is from the south suburbs. Maybe Granderson comes here and Choo goes to the Bronx.

I like Choo, but can he play CF? I thought defensively he was more of a corner OF.

The Immigrant
05-31-2013, 09:23 PM
I like Choo, but can he play CF? I thought defensively he was more of a corner OF.

He cannot. He'd be a fine LF option for us, however, and could shift to RF when Rios departs.

DannyCaterFan
05-31-2013, 09:26 PM
This White Sox team has no life or personality. I'm old enough to remember many bad teams, including the woeful 1970 team that lost 106 games. That team at least fought hard every game and gave all they had to be competitive. Remember the fun they had with the "Big White Machine" after every win?
This team is a pain to watch.

BigKlu59
05-31-2013, 09:39 PM
This White Sox team has no life or personality. I'm old enough to remember many bad teams, including the woeful 1970 team that lost 106 games. That team at least fought hard every game and gave all they had to be competitive. Remember the fun they had with the "Big White Machine" after every win?
This team is a pain to watch.

Gotta agree Danny.. and its not just a rosey glasses nostalgic old fart saying this. Sure those teams lost at a horrible rate, but they actually seemed to give a **** and hustle game in and game out..

I look at this years team and there is no fire. Ok I get the business type yammer, yet that really only works if you go about your business and win, which is the business you are in.. This team is almost operating in zombie mode..

BK59

Zakath
05-31-2013, 10:23 PM
Gotta agree Danny.. and its not just a rosey glasses nostalgic old fart saying this. Sure those teams lost at a horrible rate, but they actually seemed to give a **** and hustle game in and game out..

I look at this years team and there is no fire. Ok I get the business type yammer, yet that really only works if you go about your business and win, which is the business you are in.. This team is almost operating in zombie mode..

BK59

That's really the key. It wasn't just losing; it's the lack of effort. No serious attempt to fight back. No rally, no one stepping up and making a play or two to get them back into it. You'd have to think that if a certain guy was still a member of the Sox instead of being in Texas, we might have seen something, ANYTHING, to get this team going...

Hard to convince fans to put their hearts and souls into the team when the players and coaches don't seem to be willing to do it...

RadioheadRocks
05-31-2013, 10:45 PM
... Still, Detroit lost 3 also so we're in no worse position than a few days ago.

This season is shaping up like 1997 -- White Flag Part II. Come July, we'll likely be playing uninspired ball (at or near .500) within 7 games of Detroit and the sell-off/rebuild will start.

"Anyone who thinks we can catch Detroit is crazy"


Ok team, prove me wrong for using teal.