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Lip Man 1
05-28-2013, 11:34 PM
Fortunately the rain washed out what was looking like another comatose effort against a garbage pitcher.

In the mean time here's some Sox notes courtesy of Gonzo:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0529-bits-white-sox-chicago-20130529,0,1915154.story

The quick notes of the story:

Jones will NOT be sent to the minor leagues.
De Aza will NOT be moved out of the leadoff spot.

That is all.

Lip

mahagga73
05-29-2013, 12:07 AM
Yep, exactly what I was thinking. It doesn't take long to figure out if they are going to even look like scoring some runs. That's 11 innings or so they haven't scored a run against the amazing Cubs team. Let's just hope they win at least one.

DSpivack
05-29-2013, 12:39 AM
There aren't better alternatives, so let's just hope they get better.

BigHurt3515
05-29-2013, 12:44 AM
There aren't better alternatives, so let's just hope they get better.

Yeah I don't see anybody who could bat lead off for us. Nobody has a great OBP on our team. Unless we are going to bat Conor or Rios lead off and I don't see how that will benefit the team.

JB98
05-29-2013, 01:50 AM
Hitting some home runs early in the season might have been the worst thing to happen to De Aza. His high strikeout totals and pull-happy approach are ridiculous. The only alternative leadoff hitter would be Gillaspie, who has a respectable .354 OBP, but I'm not convinced the lineup would be any better with him at the top.

I don't agree with everything Ventura does, but you know, he really doesn't have a lot of options with this team. There are just too many underachieving and/or bad players on the roster.

SCCWS
05-29-2013, 08:08 AM
Yeah I don't see anybody who could bat lead off for us. Nobody has a great OBP on our team. Unless we are going to bat Conor or Rios lead off and I don't see how that will benefit the team.
I thought Conor would be a better alternative since he continues to hit and has a higher on base %. At least ride him while he is fairly hot. But my guess is that management sees him as a platoon player when Beckham comes back so they don't want to move DeAza down then back up again.

SCCWS
05-29-2013, 08:14 AM
Fortunately the rain washed out what was looking like another comatose effort against a garbage pitcher.


Lip

I disagree. Even though they were trailing early, they had Sale pitching. I think it is a negative when you waste his start because I always figure he will win when he goes out. Maybe that is being overly optimistic. That is now 2 straight missed starts and possible wins.

doublem23
05-29-2013, 08:20 AM
I disagree. Even though they were trailing early, they had Sale pitching. I think it is a negative when you waste his start because I always figure he will win when he goes out. Maybe that is being overly optimistic. That is now 2 straight missed starts and possible wins.

The good news of it all was that Sale had no discomfort in 3 innings he threw so it looks like the little tendonitis scare was nothing more than the Sox being overly precautionary.

Tribune Sports section today also hinted the Sox may move his next start up since he's only thrown three innings in the past week. The Sox seem to have a pretty good idea on how to handle Sale.

DeadMoney
05-29-2013, 08:44 AM
There aren't better alternatives, so let's just hope they get better.

That's great, but even the one guy that there does appear to be a better option for - or at least one worth trying - is still in the starting line-up every day.

Speaking of which, when is it OK to try Phegley? Flowers has gotten 29.5% of his career ABs this season. And, 30% of his hits have come this year, 25% of his HRs, 29.2% of his RBIs. His average, OBP, and slugging are .198/.203, .271/.296, .339/.373 respectively for 2013/career. There is nothing there that suggests he's going to get better with more time. The Sox have given him a start or so per week for the past couple of years and a full two months now to show what he has at this level and he's been frustrating. I know better than to expect much offensive output from any catcher (just look around the league, minus the top 5 or so), but even his defense - which was said to have been an upgrade over what we've had - has been frustrating. Phegley is raking in AAA and is a minor league gold glove winner - Can they just give this guy a shot already?

kittle42
05-29-2013, 09:25 AM
There aren't better alternatives, so let's just hope they get better.

Bingo. Our minor leagues completely suck, which is why an overhaul is not a bad idea.

TaylorStSox
05-29-2013, 09:35 AM
When do we start calling for PK's job? There isn't a player who's hurt the team more this year.

Noneck
05-29-2013, 09:41 AM
When do we start calling for PK's job? There isn't a player who's hurt the team more this year.

I dont know if hes hurt the team more than anyone else but yes he is up there. But like has been previous stated, whats the alternative? There is not much to fill his slot.

TaylorStSox
05-29-2013, 09:58 AM
I dont know if hes hurt the team more than anyone else but yes he is up there. But like has been previous stated, whats the alternative? There is not much to fill his slot.

He is a middle of the lineup hitter with a Flowers-like OPS.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 09:58 AM
I dont know if hes hurt the team more than anyone else but yes he is up there. But like has been previous stated, whats the alternative? There is not much to fill his slot.

Right. Best case scenario is he gets hot and has trade value.

Golden Sox
05-29-2013, 10:17 AM
I called the post game show last night and pointed out that Phegley is hitting over .300 in the Minor Leagues. Flowers isn't hitting his weight here in Chicago. I asked why not bring him up now? Rongey said the White Sox didn't want to bring up a catcher at this time because the pitchers are familar with and like the catchers the White Sox have now. All I know is that this year the White Sox have 5 guys who are not hitting.( Dunn, Konerko, Flowers, DeAza and Keppinger) There are too many outs in this lineup and this 2013 season is going down the tubes because of it. You have a guy at Triple AAA who is hitting the daylights out of the ball. You simply bring him up. The only thing I can figure is that the White Sox organization don't have a high opinion of Phegley. This offense is so bad that when the team is losing by a couple of runs you get the impression that the team won't come back and win the game.

TaylorStSox
05-29-2013, 10:27 AM
I called the post game show last night and pointed out that Phegley is hitting over .300 in the Minor Leagues. Flowers isn't hitting his weight here in Chicago. I asked why not bring him up now? Rongey said the White Sox didn't want to bring up a catcher at this time because the pitchers are familar with and like the catchers the White Sox have now. All I know is that this year the White Sox have 5 guys who are not hitting.( Dunn, Konerko, Flowers, DeAza and Keppinger) There are too many outs in this lineup and this 2013 season is going down the tubes because of it. You have a guy at Triple AAA who is hitting the daylights out of the ball. You simply bring him up. The only thing I can figure is that the White Sox organization don't have a high opinion of Phegley. This offense is so bad that when the team is losing by a couple of runs you get the impression that the team won't come back and win the game.

Or, maybe they understand that this team isn't going to out-slug anyone and keeping the battery intact is more important for the staff than the offense from the catcher. Flowers deserves a ton if blame, but the lack of production from the middle if the order is a bigger concern. Maybe they should call Phegley up and have him DH.

TomBradley72
05-29-2013, 10:38 AM
Black Hole #1- Adam Dunn (should be platooned with Keppinger when Beckham is back, worst FA signing in MLB history, there really isn't any hope as long as we have a .156 hitting DH/clean up hitter, now .180 in 2+ seasons with the White Sox)

Black Hole #2- De Aza, a 4th or 5th OF at best (zero OF depth in the organization- as evidenced by Wells as Wise being on the major league roster), still haven't had a lead off man since Pods left.

For position players- we have an old and mediocre roster at the major league level and very little talent coming in the minors.

Thanks Kenny!

kittle42
05-29-2013, 10:47 AM
Black Hole #1- Adam Dunn (should be platooned with Keppinger when Beckham is back, worst FA signing in MLB history, there really isn't any hope as long as we have a .156 hitting DH/clean up hitter, now .180 in 2+ seasons with the White Sox)

Black Hole #2- De Aza, a 4th or 5th OF at best (zero OF depth in the organization- as evidenced by Wells as Wise being on the major league roster), still haven't had a lead off man since Pods left.

For position players- we have an old and mediocre roster at the major league level and very little talent coming in the minors.

Thanks Kenny!

Seriously, the future is bleak on this side of town. Thinking of convincing the rest of my STH group to cancel after this season. It's not like there's a wait list (unlike *every* other team in town).

TaylorStSox
05-29-2013, 10:57 AM
Seriously, the future is bleak on this side of town. Thinking of convincing the rest of my STH group to cancel after this season. It's not like there's a wait list (unlike *every* other team in town).

I don't mean to rain on the melodrama, but when you have 4 or 5 quality starters under 30, it's really not all that bleak. That doesn't include a real solid number 2 that's 31 and locked up to a team friendly deal. We aren't a good team, but it's not the end of the world.

doublem23
05-29-2013, 11:01 AM
I don't mean to rain on the melodrama, but when you have 4 or 5 quality starters under 30, it's really not all that bleak. That doesn't include a real solid number 2 that's 31 and locked up to a team friendly deal. We aren't a good team, but it's not the end of the world.

Yeah, and even as absolutely dreadful as the Sox have looked this year, they're still basically right in the middle of the MLB (#17 of 30) in terms of winning percentage.

No one is arguing the team's very good this year, but some of the doom and gloom around here is a little over the top dramatic. But to each their own.

Noneck
05-29-2013, 11:04 AM
I don't mean to rain on the melodrama, but when you have 4 or 5 quality starters under 30, it's really not all that bleak.

I wouldnt put Axlerod and I have to see a lot more of Danks to put him in that category. Quintana is young, has pitched well but can he be considered a quality starter for years to come? I dont know.

FielderJones
05-29-2013, 11:09 AM
Maybe we could give Rick Hahn a year or so in the job to find a few more serviceable players like Gillaspie before declaring the franchise a total disaster.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 11:11 AM
I don't mean to rain on the melodrama, but when you have 4 or 5 quality starters under 30, it's really not all that bleak. That doesn't include a real solid number 2 that's 31 and locked up to a team friendly deal. We aren't a good team, but it's not the end of the world.

Then they'll have to shell out money on actual good FAs for the offense, as there's nothing in the minors. Do you have faith in them to do that? Mine is low-but-hopeful.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 11:12 AM
No one is arguing the team's very good this year, but some of the doom and gloom around here is a little over the top dramatic. But to each their own.

Gloom, I say!

kittle42
05-29-2013, 11:12 AM
Maybe we could give Rick Hahn a year or so in the job to find a few more serviceable players like Gillaspie before declaring the franchise a total disaster.

It's not a disaster - it's just a middling franchise, as it has been for a while - with seemingly little direction.

And we need more than serviceable guys - we need offensive forces.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2013, 11:21 AM
Sun Times looks at the question of 'what can Hahn do?' given the situation with the organization:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/20399531-419/sox-gm-hahn-might-have-to-become-trader-out-of-necessity.html

Also just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this. Don't even know if MLB keeps track of such things but Dunn, De Aza and Flowers are all on pace to strike out at least 150 times each this season.

Has a team ever had three 'starters' do that in a single season?

Regarding Jones and De Aza, I agree...who the hell else can they replace them with? That's a sad situation.

Still think Jones is going to be a good pitcher for the Sox in time but right now how are you going to keep using him when he's getting hit so hard you are either losing the game out-right or having your chances to come back and win it dramatically reduced.

I suspect a lack of depth is also the reason they've hung on to Heath, Veal and Omagrosso. All of them should have been waived a long time ago but haven't been. That's not sad...that's scary.

Lip

Noneck
05-29-2013, 11:23 AM
And we need more than serviceable guys - we need offensive forces.


And how do they get those offensive forces? Up coming FA's dont look like much, future FA's will probably be even worse with teams locking players up early, nothing coming up through the minors and no chips to get top level prospects. I hate to say disaster but a bleak situation it sure seems to be.

doublem23
05-29-2013, 11:25 AM
Still think Jones is going to be a good pitcher for the Sox in time but right now how are you going to keep using him when he's getting hit so hard you are either losing the game out-right or having your chances to come back and wit it dramatically reduced.

I suspect a lack of depth is also the reason they've hung on to Heath, Veal and Omagrosso. All of them should have been waived a long time ago but haven't been. That's not sad...that's scary.

I don't know, all three of those guys have flashed as much potential as Jones has, find me a team that doesn't have a couple questionable arms in their bullpen.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 11:31 AM
And how do they get those offensive forces? Up coming FA's dont look like much, future FA's will probably be even worse with teams locking players up early, nothing coming up through the minors and no chips to get top level prospects. I hate to say disaster but a bleak situation it sure seems to be.

Exactly. You either trade assets to get 2014 assets, or you blow it up a bit and trade assets for 2015/beyond assets, because the minors have practically no one of value.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 11:34 AM
I don't know, all three of those guys have flashed as much potential as Jones has, find me a team that doesn't have a couple questionable arms in their bullpen.

At the backend, yes. Jones is used a lot.

Also, for the most part, Cincinnati, and, most definitely, Atlanta, just off the top of my head.

Paulwny
05-29-2013, 11:49 AM
[QUOTE=Lip Man 1;3055670

Also just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this. Don't even know if MLB keeps track of such things but Dunn, De Aza and Flowers are all on pace to strike out at least 150 times each this season.

Has a team ever had three 'starters' do that in a single season?


Lip[/QUOTE]

2010 Diamondbacks
Mark Reynolds-211
Adam La Roche-172
Justin Upton-152
Kelly Johnson-148
Chris Young-145

doublem23
05-29-2013, 11:51 AM
Also, for the most part, Cincinnati, and, most definitely, Atlanta, just off the top of my head.

Not really, those are just teams whose questionable bullpen arms are currently suceeding. Of course, they both have lights out closers and that helps a lot, but it would be disingenious to say that all of their bullpen arms have long, successful track records in the Majors. They're guys who are pressed into bullpen duty and sometimes they succeed, sometimes they don't. But it doesn't take more than 5 minutes on B-R to find some of these guys' history don't inspire much confidence in the long-run.

DrCrawdad
05-29-2013, 11:57 AM
Maybe we could give Rick Hahn a year or so in the job to find a few more serviceable players like Gillaspie before declaring the franchise a total disaster.

Thank you!

Then they'll have to shell out money on actual good FAs for the offense, as there's nothing in the minors. Do you have faith in them to do that? Mine is low-but-hopeful.

Seems like I've been hearing for years that the Sox system has nothing. Then the Sox bring up guys like Reed, Axelrod, Jones, Quintana.

soxfanatlanta
05-29-2013, 11:59 AM
2010 Diamondbacks
Mark Reynolds-211
Adam La Roche-172
Justin Upton-152
Kelly Johnson-148
Chris Young-145

Uggla, and the Upton brothers are all on pace for 180+

It's not unheard of, but it sucks all the same.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2013, 12:02 PM
Doctor:

Will all respect I don't think Axelrod is anything speacial and unfortunately we've seen what's happened to Jones from last year to this one.

I think Kittle's general point is valid. The Sox especially compared to other other teams seems to have very, very few guys who can come up out of the system and have a good solid major league career.

Also it's worth nothing that the players you mention are all pitchers, the Sox seem to do a nice job developing them...position players? hitters??

That's another story isn't it?

Lip

TaylorStSox
05-29-2013, 12:09 PM
Doctor:

Will all respect I don't think Axelrod is anything speacial and unfortunately we've seen what's happened to Jones from last year to this one.

I think Kittle's general point is valid. The Sox especially compared to other other teams seems to have very, very few guys who can come up out of the system and have a good solid major league career.

Also it's worth nothing that the players you mention are all pitchers, the Sox seem to do a nice job developing them...position players? hitters??

That's another story isn't it?

Lip

Of course you think it's valid. You've headed the Doom and Gloom Committee for a decade.

Axelrod doesn't have to be "special." He has to continue to give us quality starts at the 5th spot. If he doesn't, Johnson isn't that far off. Or, Santiago takes his spot.

Also, this same team, minus AJ, scored more runs than last year's Tigers, correct? We aren't good, but certainly better than we've played. We won't out-slug anyone, but still have a pitcher's chance at making some noise.

DrCrawdad
05-29-2013, 12:11 PM
Doctor:

Will all respect I don't think Axelrod is anything speacial and unfortunately we've seen what's happened to Jones from last year to this one.

I think Kittle's general point is valid. The Sox especially compared to other other teams seems to have very, very few guys who can come up out of the system and have a good solid major league career.

Also it's worth nothing that the players you mention are all pitchers, the Sox seem to do a nice job developing them...position players? hitters??

That's another story isn't it?

Lip

Not directed at you Lip, but some people just love to rip on all things Sox - the team, the management, the ballpark, (and in this case) the prospects and they seem to also take special pleasure ripping on Sox fans.

While I don't think fans/posters should be blind to and gloss over problems. I just wonder about the motives for those I described. (Begin the ad hominen attacks)

JB98
05-29-2013, 12:13 PM
Doctor:

Will all respect I don't think Axelrod is anything speacial and unfortunately we've seen what's happened to Jones from last year to this one.

I think Kittle's general point is valid. The Sox especially compared to other other teams seems to have very, very few guys who can come up out of the system and have a good solid major league career.

Also it's worth nothing that the players you mention are all pitchers, the Sox seem to do a nice job developing them...position players? hitters??

That's another story isn't it?

Lip

I always have faith the Sox will be able to put together a decent pitching staff on an annual basis. This organization has done a pretty good job of getting production out of pitchers other teams gave up on (Quintana), and they've also gotten decent major-league innings out of guys who were considered marginal prospects (Santiago) or not prospects at all (Axelrod).

The Sox currently rank third in the American League in pitching. Usually, teams that are near the top of the league in pitching at least have a puncher's chance of getting into the postseason. Most people don't feel this team has much hope because, well, the position players are so awful.

I don't believe the organization is headed into a five-year abyss of misery for the simple fact that they have pitching in place, and there do appear to be a few useful arms on the way in the minors.

Unfortunately, the current group of position players is subpar to say the least, and there doesn't seem to be any help coming from within the organization. Maybe Phegley. Maybe Sanchez. Maybe Thompson. Those are big maybes, too, and after that, it's bleak.

hawkjt
05-29-2013, 12:44 PM
I always have faith the Sox will be able to put together a decent pitching staff on an annual basis. This organization has done a pretty good job of getting production out of pitchers other teams gave up on (Quintana), and they've also gotten decent major-league innings out of guys who were considered marginal prospects (Santiago) or not prospects at all (Axelrod).

The Sox currently rank third in the American League in pitching. Usually, teams that are near the top of the league in pitching at least have a puncher's chance of getting into the postseason. Most people don't feel this team has much hope because, well, the position players are so awful.

I don't believe the organization is headed into a five-year abyss of misery for the simple fact that they have pitching in place, and there do appear to be a few useful arms on the way in the minors.

Unfortunately, the current group of position players is subpar to say the least, and there doesn't seem to be any help coming from within the organization. Maybe Phegley. Maybe Sanchez. Maybe Thompson. Those are big maybes, too, and after that, it's bleak.


The current roster has to come to the rescue. If they do not come back to their career averages, Sox are screwed. But, too early to declare this team dead right now.....4 games back in the loss column on May 29 is not beyond overcoming the next 113 games.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 12:56 PM
Seems like I've been hearing for years that the Sox system has nothing. Then the Sox bring up guys like Reed, Axelrod, Jones, Quintana.

Reed is good. I wouldn't classify the rest as stars by any stretch. Ax is lucky to be a 5th starter. Jones?!

The point being, even with some good minor league role players, and a star closer, they have little else, and need to spend smart money on FAs.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 12:57 PM
Of course you think it's valid. You've headed the Doom and Gloom Committee for a decade.

Axelrod doesn't have to be "special." He has to continue to give us quality starts at the 5th spot. If he doesn't, Johnson isn't that far off. Or, Santiago takes his spot.

Also, this same team, minus AJ, scored more runs than last year's Tigers, correct? We aren't good, but certainly better than we've played. We won't out-slug anyone, but still have a pitcher's chance at making some noise.

I thought we were talking about offense, anyway. We are fine with assuming our pitching is solid.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 12:58 PM
Not directed at you Lip, but some people just love to rip on all things Sox - the team, the management, the ballpark, (and in this case) the prospects and they seem to also take special pleasure ripping on Sox fans.

While I don't think fans/posters should be blind to and gloss over problems. I just wonder about the motives for those I described. (Begin the ad hominen attacks)

I love you, too!

russ99
05-29-2013, 01:25 PM
Yeah, and even as absolutely dreadful as the Sox have looked this year, they're still basically right in the middle of the MLB (#17 of 30) in terms of winning percentage.

No one is arguing the team's very good this year, but some of the doom and gloom around here is a little over the top dramatic. But to each their own.

Agree. We just need to spend some cash on multi-tool hitters this offseason. Konerko's $13.5, Floyd's $9.5 and Crain's $4.5 could go a long way, even more so if we can find a taker for or bite the bullet on Dunn...

Lip Man 1
05-29-2013, 01:30 PM
I always have faith the Sox will be able to put together a decent pitching staff on an annual basis. This organization has done a pretty good job of getting production out of pitchers other teams gave up on (Quintana), and they've also gotten decent major-league innings out of guys who were considered marginal prospects (Santiago) or not prospects at all (Axelrod).

The Sox currently rank third in the American League in pitching. Usually, teams that are near the top of the league in pitching at least have a puncher's chance of getting into the postseason. Most people don't feel this team has much hope because, well, the position players are so awful.

I don't believe the organization is headed into a five-year abyss of misery for the simple fact that they have pitching in place, and there do appear to be a few useful arms on the way in the minors.

Unfortunately, the current group of position players is subpar to say the least, and there doesn't seem to be any help coming from within the organization. Maybe Phegley. Maybe Sanchez. Maybe Thompson. Those are big maybes, too, and after that, it's bleak.

Careful JB or Taylor will think you've joined the doom and gloom committee! :tongue:

I guess some folks are satisfied averaging 84 wins since 2001 with two post season appearances...so be it. They are certainly entitled to that opinion.

Lip

doublem23
05-29-2013, 01:41 PM
Agree. We just need to spend some cash on multi-tool hitters this offseason. Konerko's $13.5, Floyd's $9.5 and Crain's $4.5 could go a long way, even more so if we can find a taker for or bite the bullet on Dunn...

No one is going to take Dunn, people just need to accept that reality. I think everyone needs to realize that Hahn has this team in a circle pattern for the time being, waiting out some of the high priced vets contracts and/or seeing if they can be moved for anything. Rios's contract is no longer an anchor now that he's A) one of the best outfielders in the AL and B) only on the hook for another season. Peavy's deal is very team friendly now. Konerko, Floyd, Dunn, Thornton, Peavy, and Rios are all probably gone by the end of 2014.

I know it sucks right now and I'm not telling people that they have to think like I do or even think I'm not completely crazy, but there's going to be a lot of roster turnover around here in the next few years and hopefully the Sox will still have the pitching that it won't be as painful a rebirth as some think it will be.

kittle42
05-29-2013, 01:42 PM
I know it sucks right now and I'm not telling people that they have to think like I do or even think I'm not completely crazy, but there's going to be a lot of roster turnover around here in the next few years and hopefully the Sox will still have the pitching that it won't be as painful a rebirth as some think it will be.

Can't wait for the Facebook posts about how people are abandoning the team when Konerko is traded.

StillMissOzzie
05-29-2013, 01:44 PM
I called the post game show last night and pointed out that Phegley is hitting over .300 in the Minor Leagues. Flowers isn't hitting his weight here in Chicago. I asked why not bring him up now? Rongey said the White Sox didn't want to bring up a catcher at this time because the pitchers are familar with and like the catchers the White Sox have now. All I know is that this year the White Sox have 5 guys who are not hitting.( Dunn, Konerko, Flowers, DeAza and Keppinger) There are too many outs in this lineup and this 2013 season is going down the tubes because of it. You have a guy at Triple AAA who is hitting the daylights out of the ball. You simply bring him up. The only thing I can figure is that the White Sox organization don't have a high opinion of Phegley. This offense is so bad that when the team is losing by a couple of runs you get the impression that the team won't come back and win the game.

One possible translation: Phegley won't get called up until such time as it doesn't speed up arbitration dligibility. At which time, they can declare the Flowers experiment a flop.

SMO
:gulp:

doublem23
05-29-2013, 01:46 PM
I guess some folks are satisfied averaging 84 wins since 2001 with two post season appearances...so be it. They are certainly entitled to that opinion.


I hope you realize how ridiculous this looks. First off, there's a CANYON between "being satisfied" and not thinking the team is heading underwater for the next 5 years. It's possible to be disappointed in the way they've played so far this season and not think the whole thing needs to be blown up and rebuilt from the ground up a la what the Cubs are doing.

Second, I would be willing to bet that AT LEAST 15 if not 20 other MLB fan bases would swap places with us for the past decade if given the chance. The Yankees, Giants, Red Sox, Cardinals, Angels, and arguably Tigers, Rangers, and maybe the Braves are the only teams that have definitely had a better 2001-present. Let's not get too overly dramatic here. It's not like we're Pirates fans.

JB98
05-29-2013, 01:49 PM
Careful JB or Taylor will think you've joined the doom and gloom committee! :tongue:

I guess some folks are satisfied averaging 84 wins since 2001 with two post season appearances...so be it. They are certainly entitled to that opinion.

Lip

I wish we had a little more reason for optimism around here. The organization definitely faces an uncertain future. I think some people are a little too filled with despair, resigning themselves to the fate of the Sox sucking from now until 2018. I don't buy that because, like I said, they seem to know how to acquire and develop pitching. That will keep you competitive most of the time.

I feel like where they are now is the opposite of the Jerry Manuel Era. During the early 2000s, they had some pretty damn good hitting talent. Thomas, even on the backside of his career, was very, very good. Ordonez, Lee and Konerko were just beginning what would prove to be fine major-league careers. Valentin had some productive years. Durham was a decent hitter. They just couldn't get it going with the pitching, so they were stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone.

Right now, they've got some good pitchers. Sale is a true ace. Peavy, at minimum, is a solid 2. He'd be an ace on some clubs. We'll see about Danks, but he has a track record of being a good mid-rotation starter. Quintana is solid at the back end. Santiago is useful. Reed appears to be coming into his own as a closer. You've got pitching here, but you don't have much offense. So, you run the risk of being stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone, just for the opposite reason from what we saw 10 or 12 years ago.

DSpivack
05-29-2013, 02:02 PM
I wish we had a little more reason for optimism around here. The organization definitely faces an uncertain future. I think some people are a little too filled with despair, resigning themselves to the fate of the Sox sucking from now until 2018. I don't buy that because, like I said, they seem to know how to acquire and develop pitching. That will keep you competitive most of the time.

I feel like where they are now is the opposite of the Jerry Manuel Era. During the early 2000s, they had some pretty damn good hitting talent. Thomas, even on the backside of his career, was very, very good. Ordonez, Lee and Konerko were just beginning what would prove to be fine major-league careers. Valentin had some productive years. Durham was a decent hitter. They just couldn't get it going with the pitching, so they were stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone.

Right now, they've got some good pitchers. Sale is a true ace. Peavy, at minimum, is a solid 2. He'd be an ace on some clubs. We'll see about Danks, but he has a track record of being a good mid-rotation starter. Quintana is solid at the back end. Santiago is useful. Reed appears to be coming into his own as a closer. You've got pitching here, but you don't have much offense. So, you run the risk of being stuck in that 80- to 85-win zone, just for the opposite reason from what we saw 10 or 12 years ago.

The above might also be reflective of MLB in general, as the game has gone from the high-scoring heights of the peak of the steroid era, to a more pitching-dominant game today.

I do not want to see the Sox blow it up to suck for draft picks until 2018, I just want to see the few trade chips they do have used to gather young position talent that they so desperately need.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2013, 02:16 PM
I hope you realize how ridiculous this looks. First off, there's a CANYON between "being satisfied" and not thinking the team is heading underwater for the next 5 years. It's possible to be disappointed in the way they've played so far this season and not think the whole thing needs to be blown up and rebuilt from the ground up a la what the Cubs are doing.

Second, I would be willing to bet that AT LEAST 15 if not 20 other MLB fan bases would swap places with us for the past decade if given the chance. The Yankees, Giants, Red Sox, Cardinals, Angels, and arguably Tigers, Rangers, and maybe the Braves are the only teams that have definitely had a better 2001-present. Let's not get too overly dramatic here. It's not like we're Pirates fans.

Double:

I agree and was going to make that point had it been brought up. I do feel though given the advantages the Sox have compared to the other teams in what everyone, including yourself, say is at best, a mediocre division by far most seasons, that somehow, someway they would have figured it out and dominated for even as little as three years in a row. I mean Cleveland did in the 90's...Minnesota in the 00's.

I'm not putting down averaging 84 wins in any way shape or form, it's not easy to have a winning season in MLB. You're right, just ask the Pirates, ask the Orioles until last year or the A's with their "genius" G.M. who had what? Four or five straight losing seasons before last year.

In fact having a winning season is my ultimate bottom line when looking back on the year, at least I have that to hang my hat on and the Sox organization deserves to be congratulated on that fact.

Since 1990 they've played 23 seasons. The Sox have had 15 winning seasons, one .500 season and seven losing ones. That is noteworthy. (Now one can make the case that the arrow is pointed downwards since they haven't had back to back winning seasons since 05-06 and have had three of those seven losing seasons in the past six completed seasons...)

But like you brought up last month or six weeks ago whenever it was, 84 wins really isn't doing much. It won't get you into the post season crapshoot and it won't excite the fan base.

I wish I had the answer, I don't...but I'm also not getting paid to figure it out either. :smile:

Lip

SoxSpeed22
05-29-2013, 02:27 PM
I also have faith in our ability to develop pitchers. Erik Johnson and Scott Snodgress will likely contribute a few years from now. They had rookies come in and be successful last year. Quintana and Reed have kept it going. Santiago has been important for keeping this staff together. Axelrod has been serviceable, we can certainly do worse. Jones needs to figure something out.
For position players, that's a different story that I don't have the answer to either.

SCCWS
05-29-2013, 02:49 PM
The above might also be reflective of MLB in general, as the game has gone from the high-scoring heights of the peak of the steroid era, to a more pitching-dominant game today.

I do not want to see the Sox blow it up to suck for draft picks until 2018, I just want to see the few trade chips they do have used to gather young position talent that they so desperately need.

You omit free agent signings. At this point, if the farm system is depleted, it will be 2018 before 2013 and 2014 draft choices are MLB ready. So they also have to sign some free agents while they build a farm system. Not necessarily the big names but guys who can come in and fill holes. Hopefully one or more of Viciedo, Beckham or Gillaspie will turn into a quality MLB player.

DSpivack
05-29-2013, 02:56 PM
You omit free agent signings. At this point, if the farm system is depleted, it will be 2018 before 2013 and 2014 draft choices are MLB ready. So they also have to sign some free agents while they build a farm system. Not necessarily the big names but guys who can come in and fill holes. Hopefully one or more of Viciedo, Beckham or Gillaspie will turn into a quality MLB player.

Free agency looks pretty bare this coming offseason. And it seems like as teams are locking up their young talent, the quality of available free agents is declining with each successive offseason.

That said, you're right, there is no reason why the Sox couldn't necessarily find some stopgap solutions that are league-average in free agency. Only problem there is in signing the right players. I thought Keppinger fit that bill, but he has not looked good thus far.

SCCWS
05-29-2013, 04:04 PM
Free agency looks pretty bare this coming offseason. And it seems like as teams are locking up their young talent, the quality of available free agents is declining with each successive offseason.

That said, you're right, there is no reason why the Sox couldn't necessarily find some stopgap solutions that are league-average in free agency. Only problem there is in signing the right players. I thought Keppinger fit that bill, but he has not looked good thus far.

Cubs will probably sign Ellsbury according to New England media. Now I thought he would solve many problems ( center-speed-leadoff hitter) for White Sox but now he is questionable after a down stretch going back to last year---also a Boras guy.

DSpivack
05-29-2013, 05:22 PM
Cubs will probably sign Ellsbury according to New England media. Now I thought he would solve many problems ( center-speed-leadoff hitter) for White Sox but now he is questionable after a down stretch going back to last year---also a Boras guy.

His season last year plus his start this year don't look a lot different from De Aza. Color me unimpressed.

SCCWS
05-30-2013, 01:58 PM
His season last year plus his start this year don't look a lot different from De Aza. Color me unimpressed.

Much different as a leadoff hitter despite his average being down. He is hitting .260 after coming back from an injury and has stolen 16 bases already. But his average has jumped from .240 to .260 in a few weeks. He is a career .290 hitter whocan steal 50 bases a year. Has much better BB/SO ratio than DeAza and is a better defender.
But he is a Boras guy and seems to be headed to the Cubbies. But I would love to see him in a White Sox uniform. Remember he was a key component in the Buehrle to Boston trade that fell through a few years back.

DSpivack
05-30-2013, 02:14 PM
Much different as a leadoff hitter despite his average being down. He is hitting .260 after coming back from an injury and has stolen 16 bases already. But his average has jumped from .240 to .260 in a few weeks. He is a career .290 hitter whocan steal 50 bases a year. Has much better BB/SO ratio than DeAza and is a better defender.
But he is a Boras guy and seems to be headed to the Cubbies. But I would love to see him in a White Sox uniform. Remember he was a key component in the Buehrle to Boston trade that fell through a few years back.

I would just be very wary of giving a guy like that a big long-term contract going into his thirties. The last two seasons he has hit .266/.318/.368, though he has been dealing with some injuries.

SCCWS
05-30-2013, 02:50 PM
I would just be very wary of giving a guy like that a big long-term contract going into his thirties. The last two seasons he has hit .266/.318/.368, though he has been dealing with some injuries.

Rumor is that it probably won't be long-term but a 1 year. I guess that is a Boras ploy when a guy has an off year. Now if Ellsbury has a productive year, then they will want the long term.

doublem23
05-30-2013, 03:06 PM
Rumor is that it probably won't be long-term but a 1 year. I guess that is a Boras ploy when a guy has an off year. Now if Ellsbury has a productive year, then they will want the long term.

Can't blame a guy for that, can you? Plus, it's good for the team, right? If you're going to sign a high-risk/high-reward guy, you want a 1-year-deal, right?

SCCWS
05-30-2013, 04:19 PM
Can't blame a guy for that, can you? Plus, it's good for the team, right? If you're going to sign a high-risk/high-reward guy, you want a 1-year-deal, right?

Not at all. I would love the White Sox to take a run at him. I think he solves multiple problems in center and leadoff.

DSpivack
05-30-2013, 04:28 PM
Not at all. I would love the White Sox to take a run at him. I think he solves multiple problems in center and leadoff.

As you said, a 1-year deal does make more sense. I'd be fine with that.

SCCWS
05-31-2013, 07:22 AM
As you said, a 1-year deal does make more sense. I'd be fine with that.

He had 3 hits and 5 stolen bases last night. He now leads majors in stolen bases. He may have leverage for multiple years as he seems to be coming around offensively.