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View Full Version : Do you think Frank is.............


cornball
08-01-2002, 10:07 PM
pressing. Knowing what has transpired over the past week it is all but too obvious that the diminished clause in his contract will be exercised and I think he knows it.

nut_stock
08-02-2002, 12:35 AM
Maybe Frank will come out and say, " Even though my salary was cut by management, I feel I owe the fans of Chicago for my subpar 2002. Therefore I will accept my diminished salary for 2003 and elect not to become a free agent, remaining a member of the White Sox.

Hey I can dream can't I?

voodoochile
08-02-2002, 12:55 AM
I would be surprised if JR invoked the clause this year, knowing Frank is coming off of major surgery and still finding his groove. But, much of it may depend on the new CBA. If it handcuffs JR and forces him to find money somewhere (in his opinion), Frank may be in trouble.

Still, I would bet that JR would prefer NOT to invoke the clause (I still believe they have a handshake deal on that regardless of what JR said) and wait and see...

Frank haters are just going to have to wait another year to get their heart's desires and then only if Frank cannot rebound and have a decent season. Time will tell...

soxtalker
08-02-2002, 01:03 AM
If JR were to invoke the clause, wouldn't Frank go out and obtain a loan secured by the payments due at the end of his career? Now, that would reduce the effective salary somewhat, but not nearly to the level of $250K.

voodoochile
08-02-2002, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
If JR were to invoke the clause, wouldn't Frank go out and obtain a loan secured by the payments due at the end of his career? Now, that would reduce the effective salary somewhat, but not nearly to the level of $250K.

Half that money belongs to his ex-wife, so he cannot just bet an upfront payment based on the annuity to come (at least, I would think not). Before he would do that, he would test the market anyway and see what he could get. Someone would offer him at least $8 million a year, would be my guess and he could just walk away...

Nellie_Fox
08-02-2002, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
If JR were to invoke the clause, wouldn't Frank go out and obtain a loan secured by the payments due at the end of his career? Now, that would reduce the effective salary somewhat, but not nearly to the level of $250K. I'm sure he'd have to. Who could possibly live on $250K per annum?

nut_stock
08-02-2002, 01:27 AM
I'd be willing to try.

Tragg
08-02-2002, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I would be surprised if JR invoked the clause this year, knowing Frank is coming off of major surgery and still finding his groove. But, much of it may depend on the new CBA. If it handcuffs JR and forces him to find money somewhere (in his opinion), Frank may be in trouble.

Still, I would bet that JR would prefer NOT to invoke the clause (I still believe they have a handshake deal on that regardless of what JR said) and wait and see...

Frank haters are just going to have to wait another year to get their heart's desires and then only if Frank cannot rebound and have a decent season. Time will tell...

Frank needs to come half way. Frank's production is down - way down. Injury? Maybe. Age? Maybe. The Sox (well, really me) do not want to invoke the clause because of what he HAS done. However, 10 million is a damn expensive thank you present.
So, they should agree to a new contract for 3-5 million a year, guaranteeing him 10 million (the amount of that deferred payment in the diminished skills clause).

Kilroy
08-02-2002, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Tragg

So, they should agree to a new contract for 3-5 million a year, guaranteeing him 10 million (the amount of that deferred payment in the diminished skills clause).

I challenge you to find me a person that would say "no, don't pay me the 40 mil I'm due, deferred or not, just pay me 19."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

voodoochile
08-02-2002, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by Tragg


Frank needs to come half way. Frank's production is down - way down. Injury? Maybe. Age? Maybe. The Sox (well, really me) do not want to invoke the clause because of what he HAS done. However, 10 million is a damn expensive thank you present.
So, they should agree to a new contract for 3-5 million a year, guaranteeing him 10 million (the amount of that deferred payment in the diminished skills clause).

I wouldn't be surprised if Frank is willing to renegotiate as long as the money is still good and all of it is up front, but JR has a long standing policy on NOT renegotiating contracts (he never did with MJ if you remmeber). Like Kilroy pointed out, it would still have to be a pretty high number to get Frank to accept it. Provided JR doesn't invoke the clause, Frank makes about $6.8 million up front and has the rest deferred to the end of his contract for all the years until 2006. If JR does invoke it, Frank makes $250K and has the remaining $10M/year deferred to the end of his contract. Either way, Frank isn't going to walk away from the money.

On a side note, when looking at Frank's $250K/year salary in the event of the clause being invoked, it wouldn't go as far as most people would think. Frank gives half to his wife (and he is probably paying both her and his mortgages too boot), 10% or more to his agent and another 40% to the governent. He would probably be taking home about 65K after taxes (before mortgaqe payments). Yes, that's plenty of money, but you would bet that Frank has larger debts than most people (mortgage, car, etc.) Yes, he could simplify his lifestyle and learn to live on that money (after all it's plenty), but it would be a major change for someone used to seeing $6.8 million/year and would make him the laughing stock of baseball as his non-deferred salary would be below league minimum for a player of his tenure. Either way, hopefully Frank has an honest agent who has done alright for the big guy with investments and he is set for life, but the wife just took half so it isn't like Frank is MJ, or even pAyRod. Not trying to justify large salarys for players, but sometimes there is more (or in this case less) to the story than people realize...

CLR01
08-02-2002, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
. If JR does invoke it, Frank makes $250K and has the remaining $10M/year deferred to the end of his contract. Either way, Frank isn't going to walk away from the money.


If have always wondered how it would be defeered. Would it payed in annual installments for x number of years after his contract expired? Would it all be paid in his final year or would he recieve a lump sum payment after the final year?

hold2dibber
08-02-2002, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Half that money belongs to his ex-wife, so he cannot just bet an upfront payment based on the annuity to come (at least, I would think not). Before he would do that, he would test the market anyway and see what he could get. Someone would offer him at least $8 million a year, would be my guess and he could just walk away...

There is no way in hell anyone would offer him $8 mm/year. He has had one good year in the last five! Plus, he is strictly a DH at this point. If JR invokes the clause and Frank exercises his right to explore the free agent market, I'd be surprised if he could even get, for instance, a 3 year deal at $5 mm/year. I wouldn't be surprised if he had to "do a Lofton" and take a 1 year deal for one or two million.

steff
08-02-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Half that money belongs to his ex-wife, so he cannot just bet an upfront payment based on the annuity to come (at least, I would think not). Before he would do that, he would test the market anyway and see what he could get. Someone would offer him at least $8 million a year, would be my guess and he could just walk away...


Oh christ... no it doesn't. Frank paid her a $36 million settlement, set up complete trusts for the kids college, and pays her child support. He owes her nothing else. And if anyone is that interested in the rest of the details.... divorce records are public and can be obtained for a fee at the Daily Center.

steff
08-02-2002, 10:04 AM
Umm.. Daley Center, too :D:

Tragg
08-02-2002, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


I challenge you to find me a person that would say "no, don't pay me the 40 mil I'm due, deferred or not, just pay me 19."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

Kilroy, he isn't going to get 40 million. Do you really think that the Sox will pay that contract all the way through?
The contract allows the Sox to pay him 10 million.
I hope he stays but not at 10 million per.

Tragg
08-02-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I wouldn't be surprised if Frank is willing to renegotiate as long as the money is still good and all of it is up front, but JR has a long standing policy on NOT renegotiating contracts (he never did with MJ if you remmeber). Like Kilroy pointed out, it would still have to be a pretty high number to get Frank to accept it.

Nobody in the league will pay thomas as much as 5 million a year. It doesn't have to be that high.

And when the Sox are slashing payroll like this, how can they justify paying him 10 million a year? We are slicing off player after player in that 2-4 million range. You can't win games if you can't afford players in that range.

DrWatson27
08-02-2002, 12:17 PM
I agree with the others who would like to give Frank a chance to fully recover from the injury. By start of next season he should be ready to go. It already seems like he's starting to get back into the hitting grove, I'd hate to give up on him now.

voodoochile
08-02-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by steff3603



Oh christ... no it doesn't. Frank paid her a $36 million settlement, set up complete trusts for the kids college, and pays her child support. He owes her nothing else. And if anyone is that interested in the rest of the details.... divorce records are public and can be obtained for a fee at the Daily Center.

I did not know that. I was merely making an assumption... Well there you go. More direct evidence that assumptions can make you look like an idiot... Thanks for setting the record straight.

If Frank gave her $36 million, he must have that much himself, or there abouts, so it is good to know the big man is set financially.

voodoochile
08-02-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


Kilroy, he isn't going to get 40 million. Do you really think that the Sox will pay that contract all the way through?
The contract allows the Sox to pay him 10 million.
I hope he stays but not at 10 million per.

No, if they invoke the clause, they still owe him every penny, just they only have to pay him $250K/year and ALL of the rest gets defered - at least that is my understanding. Where did you read that they can buy him out for $10 million one time payment?

Kilroy
08-02-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


No, if they invoke the clause, they still owe him every penny, just they only have to pay him $250K/year and ALL of the rest gets defered - at least that is my understanding. Where did you read that they can buy him out for $10 million one time payment?

Right. If Thomas stays with the Sox, he gets the 40 mil either now, or later, but he gets it. If he is traded, he gets it now. The only way he doesn't get the 40 mil he is due under his current contract is if the skills clause is invoked and he accepts a FA deal. Other than that, that 40 mil is his, and it's written in stone...

rmusacch
08-02-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile



On a side note, when looking at Frank's $250K/year salary in the event of the clause being invoked, it wouldn't go as far as most people would think. Frank gives half to his wife

Why is he stilling giving his ex-wife half of what he makes? They are divorced. He is probably paying alimony and child support but half, I would bet not.

Dadawg_77
08-02-2002, 02:42 PM
He could pull a Bonds and try to get the amount paid to his ex wife reduced. Anyone remeber that Bonds went to court during the 94 strike to ask a judge to lower his payments to his ex-wife? Maybe thats why he wants another strike.

rmusacch
08-02-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
He could pull a Bonds and try to get the amount paid to his ex wife reduced. Anyone remeber that Bonds went to court during the 94 strike to ask a judge to lower his payments to his ex-wife? Maybe thats why he wants another strike.

I thought that mini-skirt was on record as saying he does not want to see a strike. I could be wrong.

steff
08-02-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I did not know that. I was merely making an assumption... Well there you go. More direct evidence that assumptions can make you look like an idiot... Thanks for setting the record straight.

If Frank gave her $36 million, he must have that much himself, or there abouts, so it is good to know the big man is set financially.

whitesoxwilkes
08-02-2002, 03:31 PM
Aside from having to pay property taxes on his huge and now unoccupied manse in Oak Brook (which you can see in the real estate section of the Wall Street Journal every weekend), Frank is ok financially.

Kilroy
08-02-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes
Aside from having to pay property taxes on his huge and now unoccupied manse in Oak Brook (which you can see in the real estate section of the Wall Street Journal every weekend), Frank is ok financially.

Those taxes are 90k plus per year. After a while, that adds up.

If I was him, at the very least, I'd live in the place. 11 mil? I'd live in it until someone bought it. And in this neck of the woods. that may take a long while.

Daver
08-02-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


On a side note, when looking at Frank's $250K/year salary in the event of the clause being invoked, it wouldn't go as far as most people would think. Frank gives half to his wife (and he is probably paying both her and his mortgages too boot), 10% or more to his agent and another 40% to the governent.

Frank dosen't have an agent.

voodoochile
08-02-2002, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by daver


Frank dosen't have an agent.

Really? Did he have one when he signed the contract? If so, is he still obligated to pay the commission to that person? Just curious.

I can understand why a guy with little advertising appeal and a long term contract would go agentless, but doesn't he still owe the guy who negotiated THIS contract?

Daver
08-02-2002, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Really? Did he have one when he signed the contract? If so, is he still obligated to pay the commission to that person? Just curious.

I can understand why a guy with little advertising appeal and a long term contract would go agentless, but doesn't he still owe the guy who negotiated THIS contract?

Frank's agent died in the same plane crash that killed Payne Stewart,as far as the financial details I have no idea,I just remeber him being quoted as saying he will not seek a replacement for his agent because he was under contract for a "long" time.

cornball
08-02-2002, 08:54 PM
As far as Frank living on 65K per year after taxes, you must remember, the car is comped by a dealer and each player takes an addition 100-200K per year in merchandising money....and probably other benefits we dont even know about.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-02-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by cornball
pressing. Knowing what has transpired over the past week it is all but too obvious that the diminished clause in his contract will be exercised and I think he knows it.


I think he's defenitely pressing. It's making things worse for him too. When he's standing in at the plate he sees all those dollar bills floating away from him & doesn't see the pitch coming at him.

Nellie_Fox
08-03-2002, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
He has had one good year in the last five! How do you figure?

If you are counting 2001, where Frank had a grand total of 58 AB because of injury as a bad year, you are still wrong. Let's look at the numbers a bit, shall we?

1997: BA .347 OBP .456 HR 35 RBI 125. A solid year.

1998: BA .265 OBP .381 HR 29 RBI 109. A down year on average and OBP, but productive. Yes, not $10M worth, but productive.

1999: BA .305 OBP .414 HR 15 RBI 77. Power numbers down, but average and OBP would make most teams happy.

2000: BA .328 OBP .436 HR 43 RBI 143. An MVP quality year.

2001: I won't bother to list the stats, because he missed 90% of the season.

Already counting this year as a bad year, thus rolling off 1997? Well, I can't let you get away with that on top of counting 2001. This year isn't over, and you can't judge the year until all the facts are in.

No way is the above only one good year in the last five. OBP over .400 in three of them. Over 100 RBI in three of them. And, again, this is allowing you to count 2001, which should be thrown out.

voodoochile
08-03-2002, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
How do you figure?

If you are counting 2001, where Frank had a grand total of 58 AB because of injury as a bad year, you are still wrong. Let's look at the numbers a bit, shall we?

...No way is the above only one good year in the last five. OBP over .400 in three of them. Over 100 RBI in three of them. And, again, this is allowing you to count 2001, which should be thrown out.

Great job, Nellie. I was too lazy to refute it, but I appreciate you doing the leg work. When you add in the fact that in 1998 Frank was having marital problems and dealing with his fathers illness; then in 1999 he had foot surgery after playing all season with a walnut sized deposit in his heel (the doctors said most people wouldn't even be walking) and then missed the entire last month of the season; finally, this year is the first after major surgery yet still his numbers havn't been that bad (check the average for 1998 and 1999 and tell me you wouldn't pay good money for a player like that). Yes, the divorce and his fathers illness are just excuses, but as excuses go, they are pretty major ones. No one can judge Frank's performance in those years until they walk the mile in his shoes and personally, I think no one should get on the "dump Frank" bandwagon until we get to see him play next year when he is fully recovered and has a whole off season to clear his head and come into camp 100% and ready to play. It is clear watching him wince at times that Frank is still feeling the effects of the arm surgery. Hopefully he will finish healing and get back to the Frank we all know and "love"...