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View Full Version : *Official* 5-27 A Memorial Day to Forget; CUBS 7 SOX 0 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 08:37 PM
What a debacle. Very little went well tonight, other than Omogrosso's two scoreless innings.

We've seen more than enough of Flowers, DeAza and Jones.

Go Hawks.

SephClone89
05-27-2013, 08:38 PM
Samardzija's pretty damn good.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 08:39 PM
Samardzija's pretty damn good.

Our clueless approach at the plate had something to do with that, too.

Viva Medias B's
05-27-2013, 08:40 PM
Samardzija's pretty damn good.

But he's not Bob Gibson! Our offense was John Shoop-like tonight!

Hartman
05-27-2013, 08:40 PM
Samardzija's pretty damn good.

We are more bad than he is good.

Tragg
05-27-2013, 08:41 PM
The plate approaches have been bad for years. The Sox must not teach working counts. Gilliespie has some patience, but he'll probably work himself out of that habit fairly soon hanging around this team.
The bench is terrible and even at their best, they'd be worse than the starters.

thomas35forever
05-27-2013, 08:43 PM
For every miraculous performance, there's a game like this that reminds you where we're likely headed.

mahagga73
05-27-2013, 08:44 PM
Samardzija's pretty damn good.
Yeah, but he's not this good . Every pitcher the Sox face is a potential 20 game winner according to Stone and Hawk. Every pitcher the Sox face also has unhittable stuff seemingly. The schmoozing the opposing pitcher act is getting old. The truth is the Sox have a very average to bad offense.

SoxSpeed22
05-27-2013, 08:45 PM
I'm on the phegley wagon now. Even though he probably won't get called up.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 08:45 PM
The plate approaches have been bad for years. The Sox must not teach working counts. Gilliespie has some patience, but he'll probably work himself out of that habit fairly soon hanging around this team.
The bench is terrible and even at their best, they'd be worse than the starters.

Hopefully Beckham will relegate Keppinger to super-sub duty.

Next, Phegley needs to replace Flowers.

Finally, I'd give Jordan Danks a shot as the starting CF, and park DeAza on the bench, and DFA Wise. Danks may not hit better, but we know he will field better, and he might hit better.

LITTLE NELL
05-27-2013, 08:46 PM
About the only teams the Cubs can beat are the Marlins and Astros and that's who we looked like tonight. Get to.500 and the next game look like a bunch of minor leaguers.

mahagga73
05-27-2013, 08:47 PM
For every miraculous performance, there's a game like this that reminds you where we're likely headed.
Lol, yeah, I was thinking the same thing . I almost expected this. They can never keep it up , hence the mediocrity the last several years. 2 hits , that's embarrassing.

mahagga73
05-27-2013, 08:47 PM
About the only teams the Cubs can beat are the Marlins and Astros and that's who we looked like tonight. Get to.500 and the next game look like a bunch of minor leaguers.
Didn't we all know it was coming though, really.

LITTLE NELL
05-27-2013, 08:48 PM
Yeah, but he's not this good . Every pitcher the Sox face is a potential 20 game winner according to Stone and Hawk. Every pitcher the Sox face also has unhittable stuff seemingly. The schmoozing the opposing pitcher act is getting old. The truth is the Sox have a very average to bad offense.

If we had an average offense we would be in first place or very close to it.

WhiteSox5187
05-27-2013, 08:48 PM
Hopefully Beckham will relegate Keppinger to super-sub duty.

Next, Phegley needs to replace Flowers.

Finally, I'd give Jordan Danks a shot as the starting CF, and park DeAza on the bench, and DFA Wise. Danks may not hit better, but we know he will field better, and he might hit better.

Exactly, Phegly might not hit much better than Flowers either but you know what? By default he almost has to be a better defender. Put the best defensive team out there, that means De Aza and Flowers sit. Flowers should never have been a starting catcher to begin with.

SCCWS
05-27-2013, 08:49 PM
What a debacle. Very little went well tonight, other than Omogrosso's two scoreless innings.

We've seen more than enough of Flowers, DeAza and Jones.

Go Hawks.

30,000 is a damn good crowd.

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 08:49 PM
Yeah, but he's not this good . Every pitcher the Sox face is a potential 20 game winner according to Stone and Hawk. Every pitcher the Sox face also has unhittable stuff seemingly. The schmoozing the opposing pitcher act is getting old. The truth is the Sox have a very average to bad offense.

Not average, just bad. Only 5 teams in baseball average fewer runs/game.

Hopefully Beckham will relegate Keppinger to super-sub duty.

Next, Phegley needs to replace Flowers.

Finally, I'd give Jordan Danks a shot as the starting CF, and park DeAza on the bench, and DFA Wise. Danks may not hit better, but we know he will field better, and he might hit better.

I doubt Phegley, Beckham, or Danks are long-term answers. I won't be upset to see them play, but I don't think those are the right answers, either. Just blow up the team and get real talent back for Peavy, Rios, Thornton, & whomever else (too bad Konerko is off to a terrible start).

Soxman219
05-27-2013, 08:49 PM
Knew a let down was coming after the sweep and recent good play. Hate losing to the Cubs, man.

mahagga73
05-27-2013, 08:50 PM
Hopefully Beckham will relegate Keppinger to super-sub duty.

Next, Phegley needs to replace Flowers.

Finally, I'd give Jordan Danks a shot as the starting CF, and park DeAza on the bench, and DFA Wise. Danks may not hit better, but we know he will field better, and he might hit better.
De Aza is not the kind of hitter you want leading off, strikes out all the time, bad on base percentage . His occasional power does even come close to making up for this. And once again, like clockwork, Ramirez has his head somewhere else and forgets to cover second base. He has to be the king of mental errors .

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 08:51 PM
30,000 is a damn good crowd.

Meh. It's a national holiday.

Boondock Saint
05-27-2013, 08:51 PM
Twice as many strikeouts as baserunners. They should be ashamed.

SCCWS
05-27-2013, 08:51 PM
If we had an average offense we would be in first place or very close to it.

But giving up 7 runs will rarely turn out positive.

amsteel
05-27-2013, 08:52 PM
Bears 7 - Cardinals 0

More games against the Marlins, plz.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 08:56 PM
I doubt Phegley, Beckham, or Danks are long-term answers. I won't be upset to see them play, but I don't think those are the right answers, either. Just blow up the team and get real talent back for Peavy, Rios, Thornton, & whomever else (too bad Konerko is off to a terrible start).

I'm not saying those three are good long-term answers, but I think they are better answers than what we have now. Also, while a complete rebuild might ultimately be necessary, contending teams are not yet in the market to pay top prices for our "available" talent, so we might as well try rolling the dice with our wild cards for the time being.

Tragg
05-27-2013, 08:58 PM
Hopefully Beckham will relegate Keppinger to super-sub duty.

Next, Phegley needs to replace Flowers.

Finally, I'd give Jordan Danks a shot as the starting CF, and park DeAza on the bench, and DFA Wise. Danks may not hit better, but we know he will field better, and he might hit better.
I agree with all of this. De Aza had a solid year last year - 100 times better than any year Wise has ever had. But he's been pretty bad this year. Give Danks a shot - he's not a proven utter failure.

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 08:58 PM
I'm not saying those three are good long-term answers, but I think they are better answers than what we have now. Also, while a complete rebuild might ultimately be necessary, contending teams are not yet in the market to pay top prices for our "available" talent, so we might as well try rolling the dice with our wild cards for the time being.

If not now, then in a month or so when teams are ready to play. Until then, I only hope to see Beckham back (despite my previous statements of not being a big fan of his) and don't care all that much which AAAA/mediocre guy starts elsewhere. Although I will be interested to see how Viciedo and Gillespie do, as the latter seems a decent piece and the former looks a bit better this season than he has in the past.

mahagga73
05-27-2013, 08:58 PM
Exactly, Phegly might not hit much better than Flowers either but you know what? By default he almost has to be a better defender. Put the best defensive team out there, that means De Aza and Flowers sit. Flowers should never have been a starting catcher to begin with.
By virtue of being able to walk to home plate he should do better than Flowers. I really thought Flowers was looking pretty good at the end of last year with the power stroke but it's obvious other teams are now exploiting that huge loop hole in his swing. He's pretty much useless sad to say. I agree with you ,bring Phegley up, let's not act like we have something to lose.

Dan H
05-27-2013, 09:02 PM
Had a bad feeling abut this game because Samardzija is good. But we have to face up to the fact that this is a bad offensive team. We are a third into the season and there are no signs of a turn around.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 09:02 PM
If not now, then in a month or so when teams are ready to play. Until then, I only hope to see Beckham back (despite my previous statements of not being a big fan of his) and don't care all that much which AAAA/mediocre guy starts elsewhere. Although I will be interested to see how Viciedo and Gillespie do, as the latter seems a decent piece and the former looks a bit better this season than he has in the past.

What if we're still at .500 and five games back of Detroit on July 1? Should we white flag it? Not saying it's a bad idea, but the media backlash would be horrific. Also, I don't deal Peavy unless we get some prime, MLB-ready talent in return.

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 09:06 PM
What if we're still at .500 and five games back of Detroit on July 1? Should we white flag it? Not saying it's a bad idea, but the media backlash would be horrific. Also, I don't deal Peavy unless we get some prime, MLB-ready talent in return.

With the team-friendly contract he's on and the way he's performing, I certainly hope to get a haul back for Peavy. But we also don't have any other great trading chips besides him (except maybe Rios).

Viva Medias B's
05-27-2013, 09:06 PM
My biggest pet peeve in all of sports is losing rivalry games. If you think losing rivalry games isn't all that bad, just ask Lloyd Carr and John Cooper about the consequences of losing rivalry games. I realize you can't win rivalry games all the time, but to lose this rivalry game the way we lost this rivalry game tonight is completely inexcusable.

Railsplitter
05-27-2013, 09:07 PM
Not happy

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 09:08 PM
My biggest pet peeve in all of sports is losing rivalry games. If you think losing rivalry games isn't all that bad, just ask Lloyd Carr and John Cooper about the consequences of losing rivalry games. I realize you can't win rivalry games all the time, but to lose this rivalry game the way we lost this rivalry game tonight is completely inexcusable.

Eh, I care little about a mediocre team losing to a bad one right now. The problems the Sox have require quite drastic changes. Plus, it's the first of 4 games.

mahagga73
05-27-2013, 09:10 PM
My biggest pet peeve in all of sports is losing rivalry games. If you think losing rivalry games isn't all that bad, just ask Lloyd Carr and John Cooper about the consequences of losing rivalry games. I realize you can't win rivalry games all the time, but to lose this rivalry game the way we lost this rivalry game tonight is completely inexcusable.
I fully expect us to lose 1-0 against Jackson tomorrow on 3 errors with Sale taking the loss despite 15 strikeouts .

LITTLE NELL
05-27-2013, 09:11 PM
I fully expect us to lose 1-0 against Jackson tomorrow on 3 errors with Sale taking the loss despite 15 strikeouts .

I don't if I could take 2 nightmares in a row.

amsteel
05-27-2013, 09:13 PM
What if we're still at .500 and five games back of Detroit on July 1? Should we white flag it? Not saying it's a bad idea, but the media backlash would be horrific. Also, I don't deal Peavy unless we get some prime, MLB-ready talent in return.

Sale and maybe Reed are the only ones that can't be traded. Rios is the only one with any value. They can blow it up all they want but there's not too much with any real value.

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 09:16 PM
Sale and maybe Reed are the only ones that can't be traded. Rios is the only one with any value. They can blow it up all they want but there's not too much with any real value.

Peavy should have more value than Rios. Ace-level pitcher on a very friendly contract through 2014 (and 2015 option).

mahagga73
05-27-2013, 09:18 PM
Peavy should have more value than Rios. Ace-level pitcher on a very friendly contract through 2014 (and 2015 option).
If they get rid of Rios who's going to actually get a hit ? Gillaspie. You think this offense is a farce now.

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 09:21 PM
If they get rid of Rios who's going to actually get a hit ? Gillaspie. You think this offense is a farce now.

I don't think this team is going far as currently built. If it takes a worse 2013 to make that happen, I'm fine with it.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 09:28 PM
I just disagree with the thought that we need to tear down and rebuild.

We have an elite starting rotation, with depth and more on the way.

We have a young, talented closer.

Simply having those holes filled means we are not far away from competing with Detroit.

We need position player help, certainly. But with contracts coming off the books, we can reload through free agency and some smart trades. For instance, Paulie's money can be reinvested to upgrade several positions. I'm OK trading Rios if that money can upgrade several positions.

I'm OK with trading any position player, but I keep the pitching intact.

Wedema
05-27-2013, 09:33 PM
30,000 is a damn good crowd.


These games used to sell out so fast you couldn't get a ticket.

DickAllen72
05-27-2013, 09:34 PM
I just disagree with the thought that we need to tear down and rebuild.

We have an elite starting rotation, with depth and more on the way.

We have a young, talented closer.

Simply having those holes filled means we are not far away from competing with Detroit.

We need position player help, certainly. But with contracts coming off the books, we can reload through free agency and some smart trades. For instance, Paulie's money can be reinvested to upgrade several positions. I'm OK trading Rios if that money can upgrade several positions.

I'm OK with trading any position player, but I keep the pitching intact.
All they need are a league average catcher and a decent centerfielder.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 09:35 PM
All they need are a league average catcher and a decent centerfielder.

Seriously

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 09:39 PM
All they need are a league average catcher and a decent centerfielder.

And for Adam Dunn to hit consistently. And to hope Beckham hits when he returns. And hope Alexei can find some of the power he used to have. And to hope Konerko can re-find his hitting stroke.

doublem23
05-27-2013, 09:45 PM
With the team-friendly contract he's on and the way he's performing, I certainly hope to get a haul back for Peavy. But we also don't have any other great trading chips besides him (except maybe Rios).

Rios has the 2nd best OPS of AL OF right now so yes, I would think he'd have some value

doublem23
05-27-2013, 09:47 PM
These games used to sell out so fast you couldn't get a ticket.

They also used to be worth watching

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 09:48 PM
And for Adam Dunn to hit consistently. And to hope Beckham hits when he returns. And hope Alexei can find some of the power he used to have. And to hope Konerko can re-find his hitting stroke.

But trading Peavy solves exactly none of those problems, and weakens the rotation. I'm OK with trading any position player, even if its just for salary relief. But weakening the rotation solves nothing.

RCWHITESOX
05-27-2013, 09:50 PM
I just disagree with the thought that we need to tear down and rebuild.

We have an elite starting rotation, with depth and more on the way.

We have a young, talented closer.

Simply having those holes filled means we are not far away from competing with Detroit.

We need position player help, certainly. But with contracts coming off the books, we can reload through free agency and some smart trades. For instance, Paulie's money can be reinvested to upgrade several positions. I'm OK trading Rios if that money can upgrade several positions.

I'm OK with trading any position player, but I keep the pitching intact.

I agree with you 100%.I still think this team can compete. Would like to see the Sox make a move at CF and catcher.

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 09:52 PM
But trading Peavy solves exactly none of those problems, and weakens the rotation. I'm OK with trading any position player, even if its just for salary relief. But weakening the rotation solves nothing.

I just see the offense as such a wreck, especially with no help down on the farm, as to preclude this team from becoming a contender. I don't see how the Sox can upgrade CF, C, 2B, 1B, SS and DH in order to truly compete with the Tigers and/or for a wild card spot. I'd rather just trade the pieces we do have in order to compete in the long-term. For too long the Sox have sought stopgap solutions, and I think that's why we've been mediocre for so many years now.

Lip Man 1
05-27-2013, 09:58 PM
Embarrassing performance tonight against a garbage team.

As others have said, you kind of saw this coming. The Sox didn't exactly light up the Marlins and their minor league pitching staff did they?

I agree...I've seen more than enough of Flowers and DeAza thank you.

Nate Jones, I had high hopes for... but something is drastically wrong and he needs to be shipped out pronto.

Hope Sale has better luck tomorrow.

At least the Hawks won.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 09:58 PM
I just see the offense as such a wreck, especially with no help down on the farm, as to preclude this team from becoming a contender. I don't see how the Sox can upgrade CF, C, 2B, 1B, SS and DH in order to truly compete with the Tigers and/or for a wild card spot. I'd rather just trade the pieces we do have in order to compete in the long-term. For too long the Sox have sought stopgap solutions, and I think that's why we've been mediocre for so many years now.

I understand your argument and don't necessarily disagree with your diagnosis.

The real problem has been our inability to draft and develop position players into quality MLB players.

I don't think SS and 2B necessarily need upgrades to compete with Detroit, provided that CF, C, 1B and DH are improved. One good swim through free agency with money to spend from PK's and Floyd's expiring deals should be enough if Hahn is smart about it.

Parrothead
05-27-2013, 10:00 PM
A positive is that Dunn only struck out 2x today.

This team down right blows. They are slow, can't field, run or hit. Besides that they are ok. There is nothing in the minors (except possibly Phegley if called up he will probably stink too). The Sox scouts suck at their job. There is no hope for years to come. Yes, i am serious.

doublem23
05-27-2013, 10:01 PM
I don't think SS and 2B necessarily need upgrades to compete with Detroit, provided that CF, C, 1B and DH are improved. One good swim through free agency with money to spend from PK's and Floyd's expiring deals should be enough if Hahn is smart about it.

Haven't looked at the list of potential FA this off-season, I take it

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 10:03 PM
I understand your argument and don't necessarily disagree with your diagnosis.

The real problem has been our inability to draft and develop position players into quality MLB players.

I don't think SS and 2B necessarily need upgrades to compete with Detroit, provided that CF, C, 1B and DH are improved. One good swim through free agency with money to spend from PK's and Floyd's expiring deals should be enough if Hahn is smart about it.

That's true, the Sox should have some money to spend in free agency next offseason, though I don't know who the free agents will be. Only $76 million in salaries for 2014 right now (not including a few arb guys, but no one there is likely to make much). And only $36 million right now for 2015 (Danks, Sale are the only long-term deal on the books).

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 10:03 PM
Haven't looked at the list of potential FA this off-season, I take it

Not good?

doublem23
05-27-2013, 10:05 PM
Not good?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/potential-free-agents-for-2014/

SCCWS
05-27-2013, 10:05 PM
I understand your argument and don't necessarily disagree with your diagnosis.

The real problem has been our inability to draft and develop position players into quality MLB players.

I don't think SS and 2B necessarily need upgrades to compete with Detroit, provided that CF, C, 1B and DH are improved. One good swim through free agency with money to spend from PK's and Floyd's expiring deals should be enough if Hahn is smart about it.

You forgot 3rd. I don't think we can assume 3rd is all set yet w Gillaspie. If he is still hitting .300 in July then that can be put in the SS / 2B category

Mohoney
05-27-2013, 10:07 PM
Let's see how things shake out after they see Sale, Danks, and Peavy. This was the one I expected to lose to them with Samardzija pitching.

DSpivack
05-27-2013, 10:07 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/potential-free-agents-for-2014/

Robinson Cano should have one excited agent.

Tragg
05-27-2013, 10:09 PM
But trading Peavy solves exactly none of those problems, and weakens the rotation. I'm OK with trading any position player, even if its just for salary relief. But weakening the rotation solves nothing.

It won't solve the problems this year. But trading him will yield a good bounty of players (and if it doesn't, don't trade him). He'd be the hottest pitcher on the market. We have 2 months to see if we have a chance this year.
But there's nothing on the horizon, no quick fixes to this offense when we have so many below average hitters.

doublem23
05-27-2013, 10:10 PM
Robinson Cano should have one excited agent.

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/oscars/2013/04/jay-z-open-letter/_jcr_content/par/cn_contentwell/par-main/cn_blogpost/cn_float_container/cn_image.size.jay-z-song-cuba.jpg

DirtySox
05-27-2013, 10:12 PM
I just see the offense as such a wreck, especially with no help down on the farm, as to preclude this team from becoming a contender. I don't see how the Sox can upgrade CF, C, 2B, 1B, SS and DH in order to truly compete with the Tigers and/or for a wild card spot. I'd rather just trade the pieces we do have in order to compete in the long-term. For too long the Sox have sought stopgap solutions, and I think that's why we've been mediocre for so many years now.

Yep. This is clearly a down year. There will be some pieces traded off at the deadline which can hopefully add to a young core for the next contending White Sox team. Peavy should being back a haul if he keeps performing like this. They will also be dealing from the abundance of starters they have, especially with Erik Johnson not too far off. Rios will bring back something nice too.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2013, 10:14 PM
Haven't looked at the list of potential FA this off-season, I take it

Don't need stars at every position of need, just upgrades. There are several players who would be upgrades over Flowers and DeAza at their positions. And there are several first basemen who could hit better than Paulie is hitting this year.

shingo10
05-27-2013, 10:23 PM
It doesn't feel like this team should be anywhere near .500 so I guess thats a plus. Sort of.

The Cubs are way too bad to lose a series too so they better find a way to pull their heads out of their asses and look like a major league team for the rest of the series.

Alexi's boneheaded play in the first really set the tone. Just amazingly bad performances tonight.

Golden Sox
05-27-2013, 10:55 PM
1) I'm hoping this is our bad game for the week, and lets just forget about it and move on.
2) I realize that there are very few bullpen pitchers who have good years every year but I can't recall any bullpen pitcher who has been as bad as Nate Jones is this year. Especially with all the sucess he had in 2012. I don't know what the White Sox have down in the Minors who can help us in the bullpen now. I would like to think if Jones keeps getting bombed his days with the team are numbered.
3) 30,000 is a good crowd for a Monday night. When you stop and consider how they have overpriced this series, I think thats a decent crowd. The cheapest ticket in the upper deck is $40 and the cheapest ticket in the lower deck is $85. This is the only series this year that has these high prices and I think this is another PR mistake by the White Sox. By having the normal prices wouldn't they be making more money with a full house?

BainesHOF
05-27-2013, 11:03 PM
Ramirez is a silly ballplayer. He's also a loser. Sure, he's an above average shortstop, but his mental makeup is like an anchor for a team trying to rise to become a legitimate contender. Hit ongoing mental mistakes in the field are inexcusable. Then there's his ridiculous approach at the plate. He just stupidly swings for the fences all the time. What has that produced so far this season? One home run. One! His RBI total is an embarrassment for someone who's played every inning of every game. I won't even get into all of his weird mannerisms. He tries to act cool on the field, but he's really a clueless clown.

I've had it with De Aza, too. Even when he's hitting well, he doesn't help you that much because his on-base percentage is low. And his body language is just terrible, especially for a leadoff hitter. He's supposed to set a positive tone. Instead, he sets a negative one. He's always shaking his head and moping. I heard that Youkilis said he's never seen a player give up like De Aza did near the end of last season. How's that for a damning indictment? De Aza has regressed defensively, too. Part of that is on him. The other part is on Ventura. Center field is a key defensive position. Ventura has started De Aza, Wise and Danks in center in the first two months. That's no way for anyone to get used to where the walls are in center.

Our hitting approach as a team just sucks. We got dominated by a pitcher who entered the game with a 2-6 record. And we got hammered by a garbage team. It's just one loss, but this one really ticks me off.

Not impressed at all with Ventura this season. The myriad of problems aren't all his fault, but he's been bad at his job.

tebman
05-27-2013, 11:09 PM
All they need are a league average catcher and a decent centerfielder.

And for Adam Dunn to hit consistently. And to hope Beckham hits when he returns. And hope Alexei can find some of the power he used to have. And to hope Konerko can re-find his hitting stroke.

...and for Alexei Ramirez to remember what position he plays. And that Dayan Viciedo learns how to swing more than one way. And that they all try to go with a pitch instead of flailing as if they're all fastballs.

We were at the game tonight, having actually paid money for tickets. I was at turns embarrassed, amused, enraged, resigned, and apoplectic. After Flowers threw away the throw to first after Sweeney's strikeout in the 7th, a young woman sitting in front of us took me to task for not supporting the Sox because there were Cub fans there. I think it was my intemperate remarks about Flowers' similarity to equine hindquarters that provoked her admonishment.

But dammit, the Cubs are a last-place team! Sure, Semardzija was good tonight, but two hits all night, and one of those erased on a double play? This wasn't an off night, this is a pathology. I don't know the answer, but I cannot believe that there is no one available in professional baseball who couldn't find a better approach at the plate than the bulk of these guys. The Sox have gifted starting pitchers and a generally dependable bullpen (Nate Jones notwithstanding), all of whom deserve better than the (lack of) offensive support they're getting.

It's going to take time but it's got to get fixed. I know the Sox have beefed up scouting in Latin America since the Wilder scandal and that Rick Hahn says they're looking for more "toolsy" players, and that's good. Wherever they come from, they can't come soon enough. Tonight's game was Exhibit A of that need.

Mr. Jinx
05-27-2013, 11:22 PM
Hopefully Beckham will relegate Keppinger to super-sub duty.

Next, Phegley needs to replace Flowers.

Finally, I'd give Jordan Danks a shot as the starting CF, and park DeAza on the bench, and DFA Wise. Danks may not hit better, but we know he will field better, and he might hit better.

I would prefer to have an actual major league player playing center field. De Aza is significantly better than Danks. Hell, Wise is better than Danks.

JB98
05-27-2013, 11:31 PM
I would prefer to have an actual major league player playing center field. De Aza is significantly better than Danks. Hell, Wise is better than Danks.

Agreed. Jordan Danks is nothing more than an organizational player. He has done nothing to indicate he deserves a full-time shot.

Of course, to be fair, the Sox gave Flowers a shot -- even though he didn't deserve one either. We all see the results of that.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I knew Flowers wouldn't hit. And I never bought that his defense would be an improvement over Pierzynski. Flowers stinks, and honestly, I'm not sure if the long-term answer at that position is currently in the organization. We've got big problems at catcher.

Really, I just shrug off this loss. It's magnified because it was against the Cubs, but we shouldn't be surprised when the Sox play like this. It wasn't the first ugly loss of the season and it won't be the last.

DrCrawdad
05-27-2013, 11:34 PM
But he's not Bob Gibson! Our offense was John Shoop-like tonight!

Tonight and for the better part of the season so far this year.

About the only teams the Cubs can beat are the Marlins and Astros and that's who we looked like tonight. Get to.500 and the next game look like a bunch of minor leaguers.

Can the Sox play the Marlins some more?

1) I'm hoping this is our bad game for the week, and lets just forget about it and move on.
2) I realize that there are very few bullpen pitchers who have good years every year but I can't recall any bullpen pitcher who has been as bad as Nate Jones is this year. Especially with all the success he had in 2012. I don't know what the White Sox have down in the Minors who can help us in the bullpen now. I would like to think if Jones keeps getting bombed his days with the team are numbered.
3) 30,000 is a good crowd for a Monday night. When you stop and consider how they have overpriced this series, I think thats a decent crowd. The cheapest ticket in the upper deck is $40 and the cheapest ticket in the lower deck is $85. This is the only series this year that has these high prices and I think this is another PR mistake by the White Sox. By having the normal prices wouldn't they be making more money with a full house?

Spot on. Spot on.

tstrike2000
05-27-2013, 11:49 PM
Finding a replacement for Flowers is one thing, but I don't know that Danks would be a viable replacement for De Aza. Alejandro needs to stop swinging for the fences and get back to driving the ball. Beckham will hopefully be replacing Keppinger soon and the middle of the order isn't doing it aside from the occasional home run from Dunn. Can't do much about him and Konerko. Alexei's power is also down for whatever reason. So besides the catcher spot, I'm not sure what other options the Sox have.

mahagga73
05-28-2013, 07:37 AM
Ramirez is a silly ballplayer. He's also a loser. Sure, he's an above average shortstop, but his mental makeup is like an anchor for a team trying to rise to become a legitimate contender. Hit ongoing mental mistakes in the field are inexcusable. Then there's his ridiculous approach at the plate. He just stupidly swings for the fences all the time. What has that produced so far this season? One home run. One! His RBI total is an embarrassment for someone who's played every inning of every game. I won't even get into all of his weird mannerisms. He tries to act cool on the field, but he's really a clueless clown.

I've had it with De Aza, too. Even when he's hitting well, he doesn't help you that much because his on-base percentage is low. And his body language is just terrible, especially for a leadoff hitter. He's supposed to set a positive tone. Instead, he sets a negative one. He's always shaking his head and moping. I heard that Youkilis said he's never seen a player give up like De Aza did near the end of last season. How's that for a damning indictment? De Aza has regressed defensively, too. Part of that is on him. The other part is on Ventura. Center field is a key defensive position. Ventura has started De Aza, Wise and Danks in center in the first two months. That's no way for anyone to get used to where the walls are in center.

Our hitting approach as a team just sucks. We got dominated by a pitcher who entered the game with a 2-6 record. And we got hammered by a garbage team. It's just one loss, but this one really ticks me off.

Not impressed at all with Ventura this season. The myriad of problems aren't all his fault, but he's been bad at his job.
I just looked up Alexei's stats, 1 homer and 10 RBI's. That's stunningly bad. Literally useless at the plate and his continuing mental errors are making him a liability in the field too. He always has a hot streak sooner or later but 10 RBI's is awful. As far as Jeff S and his 2-6 record , if you didn't know that you would think Roger Clemens in his prime was pitching last night. Hawk and Steve were gushing like they were seeing something special last night. Yeah, he's proven too be a pretty good pitcher but they need to quit insulting everyone's intelligence every night when we all know everybody looks like a legend pitching against us. This nightly session of potential 20 game winners with unhittable stuff charade is getting old. When Hawk goes on about how this team is going to hit I have to wonder if he really believes that or what planet he's on.

beasly213
05-28-2013, 07:51 AM
I don't think the Sox had a bad approach at the plate tonight. Samardzija was just flat out dealing tonight. He was hitting 96-98 on the fastball, changing, speeds, his breaking stuff was working and he was hitting his spots.

He was throwing strikes all night and the Sox went up there swinging which is what you have to do against a guy not missing much on the mound, otherwise you're down 0-2 real quick.

It's really easy to watch from the Center Field Camera and yell at the hitters saying "AWW HOW COULD YOU SWING AT THAT IT WAS IN THE DIRT!" But when you're at the plate those balls look like they are coming right down the middle and just drop out of the zone.

I'm more annoyed with how the defense played today.

beasly213
05-28-2013, 07:54 AM
I just looked up Alexei's stats, 1 homer and 10 RBI's. That's stunningly bad. Literally useless at the plate and his continuing mental errors are making him a liability in the field too. He always has a hot streak sooner or later but 10 RBI's is awful. As far as Jeff S and his 2-6 record , if you didn't know that you would think Roger Clemens in his prime was pitching last night. Hawk and Steve were gushing like they were seeing something special last night. Yeah, he's proven too be a pretty good pitcher but they need to quit insulting everyone's intelligence every night when we all know everybody looks like a legend pitching against us. This nightly session of potential 20 game winners with unhittable stuff charade is getting old. When Hawk goes on about how this team is going to hit I have to wonder if he really believes that or what planet he's on.


W-L records are pretty meaninglessness when it comes to pitchers. He now has an ERA of 2.85 and a WHIP of 1.05 2 of his losses were also 1-0 losses. He's been pretty damn good this year.

October26
05-28-2013, 08:20 AM
...and for Alexei Ramirez to remember what position he plays. And that Dayan Viciedo learns how to swing more than one way. And that they all try to go with a pitch instead of flailing as if they're all fastballs.

We were at the game tonight, having actually paid money for tickets. I was at turns embarrassed, amused, enraged, resigned, and apoplectic. After Flowers threw away the throw to first after Sweeney's strikeout in the 7th, a young woman sitting in front of us took me to task for not supporting the Sox because there were Cub fans there. I think it was my intemperate remarks about Flowers' similarity to equine hindquarters that provoked her admonishment.

But dammit, the Cubs are a last-place team! Sure, Semardzija was good tonight, but two hits all night, and one of those erased on a double play? This wasn't an off night, this is a pathology. I don't know the answer, but I cannot believe that there is no one available in professional baseball who couldn't find a better approach at the plate than the bulk of these guys. The Sox have gifted starting pitchers and a generally dependable bullpen (Nate Jones notwithstanding), all of whom deserve better than the (lack of) offensive support they're getting.

It's going to take time but it's got to get fixed. I know the Sox have beefed up scouting in Latin America since the Wilder scandal and that Rick Hahn says they're looking for more "toolsy" players, and that's good. Wherever they come from, they can't come soon enough. Tonight's game was Exhibit A of that need.


I was at the hospital with my Dad yesterday and we were both irritated watching that game/mess last night. I can only imagine how awful it was for you and your family to have to watch in person. Of course, it's not the first or last time the Sox have played so poorly, but we really hate to see the Sox lose to the Cubs.

Zakath
05-28-2013, 08:32 AM
Just burn the tape, rope off the crime scene, and move on. Bad night all around.

Smarmy's been this good all season. Cubs finally gave him some run support.

Illini Stripes
05-28-2013, 09:39 AM
Alexei's mental error set the tone for this loss. One of his AB's was brutal swinging at a pitch way out of the zone...but that seems to be the theme of this team, bad AB's (Tank, De Aza, Donkey, etc...every game). #10 needs a few games off to get his head straight. AS far as Flowers, guys he's getting worse not better.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2013, 10:16 AM
I don't think the Sox had a bad approach at the plate tonight. Samardzija was just flat out dealing tonight. He was hitting 96-98 on the fastball, changing, speeds, his breaking stuff was working and he was hitting his spots.

He was throwing strikes all night and the Sox went up there swinging which is what you have to do against a guy not missing much on the mound, otherwise you're down 0-2 real quick.

It's really easy to watch from the Center Field Camera and yell at the hitters saying "AWW HOW COULD YOU SWING AT THAT IT WAS IN THE DIRT!" But when you're at the plate those balls look like they are coming right down the middle and just drop out of the zone.

I'm more annoyed with how the defense played today.

Beasley:

You bring up some good points which is why I found it strange the Sox did nothing...nothing, to try to disrupt his rhythm.

No stepping out of the box, no calling time, no walking back to the on-deck circle for more pine tar. Nothing.

Just step up to the plate, swing (and miss), walk back to the dugout. You'd think they would have tried to do whatever they could to mess with him.

Instead they looked like they wanted to get out of the stadium as quickly as possible.

Lip

The Immigrant
05-28-2013, 10:16 AM
AS far as Flowers, guys he's getting worse not better.

I think his back will land him on the DL and we'll see what Phegley can do. He's not slowing down at all in AAA.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2013, 10:19 AM
Alexei's mental error set the tone for this loss. One of his AB's was brutal swinging at a pitch way out of the zone...but that seems to be the theme of this team, bad AB's (Tank, De Aza, Donkey, etc...every game). #10 needs a few games off to get his head straight. AS far as Flowers, guys he's getting worse not better.

Illini:

The problem is Ramirez has been making mental errors for the past three years. I don't think time off to clear his head will do any good...he is what he is, he's in his 30's now, he's not going to change one iota.

Lip

beasly213
05-28-2013, 10:45 AM
Beasley:

You bring up some good points which is why I found it strange the Sox did nothing...nothing, to try to disrupt his rhythm.

No stepping out of the box, no calling time, no walking back to the on-deck circle for more pine tar. Nothing.

Just step up to the plate, swing (and miss), walk back to the dugout. You'd think they would have tried to do whatever they could to mess with him.

Instead they looked like they wanted to get out of the stadium as quickly as possible.

Lip


These are MLB pitchers. Stepping out of the box a couple times isn't going to screw with a pitchers head or break his rhythm.
The fact is the guy on the mound for the Cubs had his A stuff going today and sometimes you actually do have to tip your cap, not over analyze and breakdown exactly what went wrong. He would have beat most MLB teams yesterday.

kufram
05-28-2013, 11:12 AM
I don't think the Sox had a bad approach at the plate tonight. Samardzija was just flat out dealing tonight. He was hitting 96-98 on the fastball, changing, speeds, his breaking stuff was working and he was hitting his spots.

He was throwing strikes all night and the Sox went up there swinging which is what you have to do against a guy not missing much on the mound, otherwise you're down 0-2 real quick.

It's really easy to watch from the Center Field Camera and yell at the hitters saying "AWW HOW COULD YOU SWING AT THAT IT WAS IN THE DIRT!" But when you're at the plate those balls look like they are coming right down the middle and just drop out of the zone.

I'm more annoyed with how the defense played today.

W-L records are pretty meaninglessness when it comes to pitchers. He now has an ERA of 2.85 and a WHIP of 1.05 2 of his losses were also 1-0 losses. He's been pretty damn good this year.

Just burn the tape, rope off the crime scene, and move on. Bad night all around.

Smarmy's been this good all season. Cubs finally gave him some run support.

These are MLB pitchers. Stepping out of the box a couple times isn't going to screw with a pitchers head or break his rhythm.
The fact is the guy on the mound for the Cubs had his A stuff going today and sometimes you actually do have to tip your cap, not over analyze and breakdown exactly what went wrong. He would have beat most MLB teams yesterday.


This is no place for level-headed, reasoned responses to a bad loss.

kittle42
05-28-2013, 11:26 AM
I'm on the phegley wagon now. Even though he probably won't get called up.

After blasting those who wanted him last week, I cannot suffer Flowers anymore. At least Dunn hits a homer now and again.

kittle42
05-28-2013, 11:33 AM
Ramirez is a silly ballplayer. He's also a loser. Sure, he's an above average shortstop, but his mental makeup is like an anchor for a team trying to rise to become a legitimate contender. Hit ongoing mental mistakes in the field are inexcusable. Then there's his ridiculous approach at the plate. He just stupidly swings for the fences all the time. What has that produced so far this season? One home run. One! His RBI total is an embarrassment for someone who's played every inning of every game. I won't even get into all of his weird mannerisms. He tries to act cool on the field, but he's really a clueless clown.

I've had it with De Aza, too. Even when he's hitting well, he doesn't help you that much because his on-base percentage is low. And his body language is just terrible, especially for a leadoff hitter. He's supposed to set a positive tone. Instead, he sets a negative one. He's always shaking his head and moping. I heard that Youkilis said he's never seen a player give up like De Aza did near the end of last season. How's that for a damning indictment? De Aza has regressed defensively, too. Part of that is on him. The other part is on Ventura. Center field is a key defensive position. Ventura has started De Aza, Wise and Danks in center in the first two months. That's no way for anyone to get used to where the walls are in center.

Our hitting approach as a team just sucks. We got dominated by a pitcher who entered the game with a 2-6 record. And we got hammered by a garbage team. It's just one loss, but this one really ticks me off.

Not impressed at all with Ventura this season. The myriad of problems aren't all his fault, but he's been bad at his job.

Agreed on all counts. Good post.

Tragg
05-28-2013, 01:58 PM
I've had it with De Aza, too. Even when he's hitting well, he doesn't help you that much because his on-base percentage is low.

De Aza had the second highest OBP on the team last year of .349. He walked 8% of the time. Both are high numbers in this organization. That's easiest the best we've gotten out of the lead off spot since, perhaps 2005 Podsednik and then back to Durham. He has been dreadful this year (although not Wise dreadful).

Tragg
05-28-2013, 02:02 PM
I just disagree with the thought that we need to tear down and rebuild.

We have an elite starting rotation, with depth and more on the way.

We have a young, talented closer.

Simply having those holes filled means we are not far away from competing with Detroit.

We need position player help, certainly. But with contracts coming off the books, we can reload through free agency and some smart trades. For instance, Paulie's money can be reinvested to upgrade several positions. I'm OK trading Rios if that money can upgrade several positions.

I'm OK with trading any position player, but I keep the pitching intact.
I hear you but Peavy's here for, what 1 more year after this year? Maybe 2. And he's the only one who's going to bring in real talent (Rios might - but Hahn will have to negotiate well, and in no case will he bring in Peavy talent). And how close are we really - some positions = first base, second base (offensively), left field (Tank isn't there yet), CF (based on this year) and RF (if Rios is gone). YOu may even throw in SS (Alexei is annoying and, he's also 32 - hard to believe); not sure about Gillespie's D at 3rd, but he looks like a capable hitter as long as he doesn't pick up the habits of his teammates. That's a lot of upgrades.

hawkjt
05-28-2013, 02:07 PM
Teams simply do not trade their good young prospects for a bandaid in July anymore. They have learned the hard way that the bandaid approach saps their farm system,which is the key to current sustained success.

Forget trading Peavy or Rios in July....they will not bring much of value.

Smarmy has top notch stuff,and with our offense,that means our pitcher has to be perfect.
Quintana has to learn to perform out of the stretch...I like the kid,but the dropoff is huge when runners get on base and he cannot use his ''hitch'' full delivery that decieves hitters and puts him in a good rythmn.

Sox have won 9 of 13 now....not the end of the world..just go out and win the next three.

LITTLE NELL
05-28-2013, 02:08 PM
Illini:

The problem is Ramirez has been making mental errors for the past three years. I don't think time off to clear his head will do any good...he is what he is, he's in his 30's now, he's not going to change one iota.

Lip

Never been a big fan of his, he has not matured one iota as a ballplayer.

JB98
05-28-2013, 02:08 PM
These are MLB pitchers. Stepping out of the box a couple times isn't going to screw with a pitchers head or break his rhythm.
The fact is the guy on the mound for the Cubs had his A stuff going today and sometimes you actually do have to tip your cap, not over analyze and breakdown exactly what went wrong. He would have beat most MLB teams yesterday.

I do agree in this particular case. Samardzija had his stuff and he shut the Sox down.

The problem is the Sox get shut down so frequently that it's hard for most fans to tell when to tip their cap to the opposing pitcher and when to blame a poor offensive approach by the Sox hitters.

It's really frustrating when you feel like your team can't score, regardless of the opponent.

beasly213
05-28-2013, 02:11 PM
I do agree in this particular case. Samardzija had his stuff and he shut the Sox down.

The problem is the Sox get shut down so frequently that it's hard for most fans to tell when to tip their cap to the opposing pitcher and when to blame a poor offensive approach by the Sox hitters.

It's really frustrating when you feel like your team can't score, regardless of the opponent.

This year in particular it seems like the Sox are getting guys on base but not knocking them in.

DSpivack
05-28-2013, 02:44 PM
Teams simply do not trade their good young prospects for a bandaid in July anymore. They have learned the hard way that the bandaid approach saps their farm system,which is the key to current sustained success.

Forget trading Peavy or Rios in July....they will not bring much of value.

Smarmy has top notch stuff,and with our offense,that means our pitcher has to be perfect.
Quintana has to learn to perform out of the stretch...I like the kid,but the dropoff is huge when runners get on base and he cannot use his ''hitch'' full delivery that decieves hitters and puts him in a good rythmn.

Sox have won 9 of 13 now....not the end of the world..just go out and win the next three.

Why would Peavy not bring much of value? He's an ace-level pitcher on a team-friendly contract through 2014 or 2015 (depending on if he fulfills the option requirements).

hawkjt
05-28-2013, 03:28 PM
Why? Because in the new MLB paradigm, teams are more relunctant to trade away top prospects for short term help.

They see the best teams nurture their own prospects,and bring in new ones each year helping to sustain success.

The Immigrant
05-28-2013, 04:19 PM
Why? Because in the new MLB paradigm, teams are more relunctant to trade away top prospects for short term help.


Right, but that's basically what the Royals did this offseason when they traded away the best prospect in baseball. It still happens.

kittle42
05-28-2013, 04:27 PM
Right, but that's basically what the Royals did this offseason when they traded away the best prospect in baseball. It still happens.

And Bauer got moved to Cleveland. Indeed, it happens.

DSpivack
05-28-2013, 04:28 PM
Right, but that's basically what the Royals did this offseason when they traded away the best prospect in baseball. It still happens.

Exactly. All it takes is one team.

Tragg
05-28-2013, 05:18 PM
Teams simply do not trade their good young prospects for a bandaid in July anymore. They have learned the hard way that the bandaid approach saps their farm system,which is the key to current sustained success.

Forget trading Peavy or Rios in July....they will not bring much of value.


The Giants did for a short term rent of Beltran. The Royals did last year. A budding team with a lot of young players might go for it.
Peavy absolutely should bring a lot - he's a low 1/high 2 and there won't be many of those on the market. Williams didn't bring in much (and he wasn't dealing a Peavy) but I don't know what he was doing with his trades anyway.

But to sit with this team is to keep ourselves the Milwaukee Bucks.

SCCWS
05-28-2013, 05:19 PM
Why? Because in the new MLB paradigm, teams are more relunctant to trade away top prospects for short term help.

They see the best teams nurture their own prospects,and bring in new ones each year helping to sustain success.

Peavy would not be short term. He is signed for next year plus an option. He is not a half year rental player who becomes a free agent.

StillMissOzzie
05-28-2013, 08:58 PM
Illini:

The problem is Ramirez has been making mental errors for the past three years. I don't think time off to clear his head will do any good...he is what he is, he's in his 30's now, he's not going to change one iota.

Lip

Never been a big fan of his, he has not matured one iota as a ballplayer.

A recurring gripe of mine on TCM is that he will frequently make the outstanding play, but all too often, he will fail to make the routine play. Failing to cover 2B with the lefty batting Rizzo batting falls into this. I don't know if it a lack of concentration, just lazy, or what. But I will agree with you here, Lip - he isn't going to change if he has gotten by with it this long.

SMO
:mad:

Brian26
05-28-2013, 11:37 PM
The moment I lost confidence in Alexei was two years ago in KC when he got thrown out at first on a hot single to rightfield and then put his arms up in the air while staring down the RFer like "you're not allowed to do that."