PDA

View Full Version : Hahn On Rebuild Possibility...


Lip Man 1
05-20-2013, 09:05 PM
Says there are no plans to do so as of now. Scouts being told to look at players who can help this season at deadline:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0521-bits-white-sox-red-sox-chicago-2-20130521,0,467121.story

Lip

doublem23
05-20-2013, 09:22 PM
I am just going to hope the number of people who actually believe him is zero

Noneck
05-20-2013, 09:22 PM
Not much else he can say at this stage. Interesting about Beckham at short. Ramirez may be be able to get something in return and of course salary relief.

RKMeibalane
05-20-2013, 09:32 PM
Honestly, I don't think it matters what they're going to do. Whether they decide to continue with the current group or to rebuild, they will find a way to screw it up.

amsteel
05-20-2013, 10:15 PM
It appears the Sox' current thought process is "if we pretend to care maybe the fans will too"

LITTLE NELL
05-21-2013, 05:21 AM
Beckham at Short..hmmm. TCM on his way out? Would not break my heart if they trade him, never a big fan of his.

DonnieDarko
05-21-2013, 06:08 AM
Beckham at Short..hmmm. TCM on his way out? Would not break my heart if they trade him, never a big fan of his.


It would me. I don't think that Beckham has the arm for SS (he certainly may have the range), and I absolutely LOVE the growth that Ramirez has shown as a MLB SS over his tenure here with the Sox. I remember when he was at 2B his first year here that I thought he was going to be a great SS...and then his first year he fell flat on his face and was horrible in the field...and then the year after proceeded to have a Gold Glove-caliber season (damn you, Derek Jeter).

I won't lie and say that he's the best SS in the league, but I still think that he's one of the best in the field. So far this year he's been solid, even with a rotating 2B. When Beckham comes back, I expect him to return to being a top 3 SS.

I think it would be a mistake to let him go or to trade him.

delben91
05-21-2013, 08:56 AM
Honestly, I don't think it matters what they're going to do. Whether they decide to continue with the current group or to rebuild, they will find a way to screw it up.

That says it all right there.

kittle42
05-21-2013, 09:02 AM
That says it all right there.

Yup, and I sadly couldn't agree more.

Domeshot17
05-21-2013, 09:05 AM
It is sad, but would anyone not trade places with the Cubs right now? Atleast having a highly regarded Farm system makes the rebuild stomachable. The Sox are basically stuck in baseball hell, absolutely terrible, pathetic MLB roster and an equally pathetic farm system.

Selling makes no sense this early because why sell the couple of guys who might have any value... No one is taking Dunn unless he KEEPS hitting, no one is going to give much for PK at his age, Maybe Rios attracts some offers, no one wants Beckham, its just a bad team, probably a sub 80 win team...

jamokes
05-21-2013, 09:14 AM
The Sox really need some pop in their bats. Dunn, Keppinger, Flowers etc..........are not an easy sight to watch.

doublem23
05-21-2013, 09:14 AM
It is sad, but would anyone not trade places with the Cubs right now? Atleast having a highly regarded Farm system makes the rebuild stomachable. The Sox are basically stuck in baseball hell, absolutely terrible, pathetic MLB roster and an equally pathetic farm system.

Honestly no, because for all the hype of their young players like Starlin, Rizzo, Soler, etc. they have not yet been able to prove they can identify or develop pitching. The Sox, for all their woes, do seem to at least be able to cultivate arms; who would have thought that as we enter the last week of May that Hector, Quintana, and Axelrod would have pitched well enough to justify a SP spot when Danks returns. For all the flash and sizzle the Cubs rebuild gets, they still have not proven they can find any solution to their organization's serious lack of quality pitchers.

That said, neither team is in a real good place right now. But I don't, at all, think it is a given that in say, 2016, 2017, or 2018 the Cubs will DEFINITELY be a better team than the Sox as the organizations are cosnstucted right now.

35th and Shields
05-21-2013, 09:25 AM
Honestly no, because for all the hype of their young players like Starlin, Rizzo, Soler, etc. they have not yet been able to prove they can identify or develop pitching. The Sox, for all their woes, do seem to at least be able to cultivate arms; who would have thought that as we enter the last week of May that Hector, Quintana, and Axelrod would have pitched well enough to justify a SP spot when Danks returns. For all the flash and sizzle the Cubs rebuild gets, they still have not proven they can find any solution to their organization's serious lack of quality pitchers.

That said, neither team is in a real good place right now. But I don't, at all, think it is a given that in say, 2016, 2017, or 2018 the Cubs will DEFINITELY be a better team than the Sox as the organizations are cosnstucted right now.

I agree. Sox have the hardest piece to get with an ace like Sale. Much more young pitcing talent than the cubs as of now. Position players are another story. Sox don't have much in the pipeline.

cws05champ
05-21-2013, 10:00 AM
Not much else he can say at this stage. Interesting about Beckham at short. Ramirez may be be able to get something in return and of course salary relief.

I think you are really under selling Alexei....I think he could bring a big return. He is only making $7M this year and is signed for 2 years after that at a fairly reasonable salary. He plays an outstanding SS, and doesn't hurt you offensively. A team like St. Louis with a big need for a SS could bring back some nice pieces in a deal for Alexei and maybe Jesse Crain. Give me Michael Wacha and Matt Adams, both of who could contribute either this year or early next year.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 10:01 AM
I think you hold the course for a while. I don't think the Sox can be as bad as they were in the first month and a half for a whole season. Next year, the only 2 real positions of need are 1st and maybe C. ADA can continue to be a stopgap. Hopefully one of the few legit prospects can develop into a CF. If not, find one. The staff is young and good. I actually like the pen.

The Tigers have a bad pen and I think there's something wrong with Verlander. If Verlander isn't Verlander, that team suddenly looks beatable.

Normally I'd be all over the rebuild, but I don't see any viable assets to actually get top prospects. There will be enough money off the books next year to retool. Maybe find a CF, move ADA to LF and Viciedo to 1st.

If the Sox do get hot and suddenly become buyers, I think you have to look at a replacement for PK. Nobody wants it, but he's been bad for about 3/4 of a season, going back to last year. It's probably time.

*edit*
Replacing Ramirez with Beckham would be an absolute disaster defensively. Ramirez is still elite with the glove, and I mean elite. Beckham doesn't have the physical tools to play SS, let alone play it well.

FielderJones
05-21-2013, 10:26 AM
It is sad, but would anyone not trade places with the Cubs right now? Atleast having a highly regarded Farm system makes the rebuild stomachable. The Sox are basically stuck in baseball hell, absolutely terrible, pathetic MLB roster and an equally pathetic farm system.


I'm with Doub; I don't get the assertion that rebuilding with a bunch of young players automatically guarantees a playoff appearance three, four years down the road.

Calling the White Sox MLB roster terrible, pathetic when they are 4.5 games behind Detroit in late May is a bit premature. Get back to me in July.

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 10:54 AM
Honestly, I don't think it matters what they're going to do. Whether they decide to continue with the current group or to rebuild, they will find a way to screw it up.

That says it all right there.

Yup, and I sadly couldn't agree more.
I ask this in seriousness, and I know this has been addressed before, but if you don't like anything about the organization, you think that there is some conspiracy for it to suck, why do you remain a fan?

Moses_Scurry
05-21-2013, 11:10 AM
I ask this in seriousness, and I know this has been addressed before, but if you don't like anything about the organization, you think that there is some conspiracy for it to suck, why do you remain a fan?

You love your children no matter how much or how badly they screw up. You just have to hope they get it right at some point.

harwar
05-21-2013, 11:14 AM
Beckham at Short..hmmm. TCM on his way out? Would not break my heart if they trade him, never a big fan of his.

My only problem with Alexei has always been that he would shy away from holding his ground at 2nd when the runner was coming in hard .. i think it would be a mistake to get rid of him unless you had a great prospect waiting to come up to fill his place .. i think Beckham could play short but not as good as Ramirez .. Gordon is so good at 2nd, that i'd not like to see him move .. also, not a lot of fans around baseball know who Alexei Ramirez is, but the scouts sure do..

ChiSoxGal85
05-21-2013, 11:18 AM
You love your children no matter how much or how badly they screw up. You just have to hope they get it right at some point.
Best.Analogy.Ever.

hawkjt
05-21-2013, 11:22 AM
Too early to give up,and Hahn knows that.

The Sox still have the best rotation in the division.
The Sox still have the best bullpen in the division.

If the bats heat up at all...they will be in contention all summer.
Alexei needs to stay put....Gordo not good enough to take over at SS.
Do not break this combo up..they are as good as anyone in the league.

Domeshot17
05-21-2013, 11:28 AM
Too early to give up,and Hahn knows that.

The Sox still have the best rotation in the division.
The Sox still have the best bullpen in the division.

If the bats heat up at all...they will be in contention all summer.
Alexei needs to stay put....Gordo not good enough to take over at SS.
Do not break this combo up..they are as good as anyone in the league.

Defensively? Maybbbbeeeeeeeeeeeee..... I think we overrate Gordon's glove sometimes. Metrically his stats are not great, but he does pass the eye test. That leads me to believe he is above average, but not sensational....

The Sox have a solid rotation, but not a tremendously deep one. They have the makings of a good bullpen, but again, not a great one. Lineup is really bad. Like, one of the worst in professional baseball bad. Maybe I am wrong, but the idea you can win a world series with an offense in the bottom 5 does not sit well with me. We are just not a talented team. I mean, what is more likely, a bad offense magically becomes better, or some sketchy young SP come back down to earth?

doublem23
05-21-2013, 11:38 AM
Defensively? Maybbbbeeeeeeeeeeeee..... I think we overrate Gordon's glove sometimes. Metrically his stats are not great, but he does pass the eye test. That leads me to believe he is above average, but not sensational....

The Sox have a solid rotation, but not a tremendously deep one. They have the makings of a good bullpen, but again, not a great one. Lineup is really bad. Like, one of the worst in professional baseball bad. Maybe I am wrong, but the idea you can win a world series with an offense in the bottom 5 does not sit well with me. We are just not a talented team. I mean, what is more likely, a bad offense magically becomes better, or some sketchy young SP come back down to earth?

The Sox offense is also getting well below career average production from Keppinger, Konerko, and Alexei (this doesn't even mention Dunn) so it's not like the offense has been bad despite all cylinders clicking. I agree the Sox offense does leave a lot on the table, but I think it's a half-truth, at best to say the only way for some of these guys to pick up the slack is only magic.

People will see what they want to see. The biggest thing right now is that the 100+ win Tiger team we thought we'd have to deal with has not shown up yet. Everyone seems to forget how mediocre Detroit was all last season before heating up at the right time, catching an exhausted Yankees team, before getting blown out of the World Series by another run-of-the mill NL team that caught fire.

ALL THAT SAID, there's a lot of talk in a thread that is clearly based on Hahn feeding the media a bold faced lie. Of course the Sox have a plan to unload some veteran players if need be. I would assume they had it before the season started. But they're inexplicably hanging around again. Last season's Tigers team didn't even get above .500 until July 7 last season. There's absolutely no reason for the Sox not to try for it if they can keep pace in the division.

The Sox look to be better than what most people give them credit for. I assume they're not as well liked, even by our own fans, because they don't do things the "sexy," headline-grabbing way. They don't do the Rays-style and load up on blue chip prospects or the Dodgers/Angels-style and sign every FA to a moster deal. The Sox make subtle moves, like signing Jose Quintana, a guy who never pitched above A-ball last year, to a minor league deal. Or develop guys like Santiago and Axelrod (each taken in the 30th round) into interesting MLB pitchers. When you look at the make-up of this team, it's actually a bunch of grinders or blue collar guys who earned everything they have in this sport. This is the kind of a team you should want to root for. But I guess that's not what people want.

Whitesox029
05-21-2013, 11:54 AM
I think it's interesting how these threads seem to go in waves of pessimism followed by optimism followed by pessimism followed by optimism, and so on...
They're quite a roller coaster ride to read.
The fact is that the absence of AJ Pierzynski cannot possibly account for the huge difference in offensive production between now and this time last year. There's gotta be some regression to the mean. We're already seeing it with Dunn. By the time he slows down again he'll probably have his average up to where he was last year, and he's already matched his 2011 HR total, which he did at about the same time last year (May 11).

shes
05-21-2013, 11:56 AM
Defensively? Maybbbbeeeeeeeeeeeee..... I think we overrate Gordon's glove sometimes. Metrically his stats are not great, but he does pass the eye test. That leads me to believe he is above average, but not sensational....

The Sox have a solid rotation, but not a tremendously deep one. They have the makings of a good bullpen, but again, not a great one. Lineup is really bad. Like, one of the worst in professional baseball bad. Maybe I am wrong, but the idea you can win a world series with an offense in the bottom 5 does not sit well with me. We are just not a talented team. I mean, what is more likely, a bad offense magically becomes better, or some sketchy young SP come back down to earth?

If you can count on sketchy young SPs coming down to Earth, you have to also allow for veteran hitters to, erm, come up to Earth as well. When Konerko and Keppinger rebound it'll be like trading two scrubs for two good bats. The chances of them hitting .220 and .199 for the entire season are incredibly slim.

Solid rotation, solid pen, slightly below average offense -- that's more likely what we have. So, you know, 75-80 wins, which is pretty much what most of us expected. With a little bit of overachieving and a sneaky good trade or two it could be a fun summer.

Lip Man 1
05-21-2013, 11:57 AM
Double:

Solid points.

Can only speak for me, I don't care how they win, be it with the minor league system aka the Rays or the way the Yankees do it, sign every big name free agent out there. They just need to win.

They simply haven't been doing it.

As you pointed out last month or so, they are caught in the middle and can't seem to figure out a way to get out of that.

Lip

doublem23
05-21-2013, 12:05 PM
Double:

Solid points.

Can only speak for me, I don't care how they win, be it with the minor league system aka the Rays or the way the Yankees do it, sign every big name free agent out there. They just need to win.

They simply haven't been doing it.

As you pointed out last month or so, they are caught in the middle and can't seem to figure out a way to get out of that.

Lip

Oh, I agree, and I think the division the Sox play in has a lot do with it. I know people don't like putting together 88-win teams, but that's what Detroit did last year and it got them to the World Series. The way the playoffs are now, you have to try and go for it every year you have a chance, because every year could be your year. I think that's what most people mistakenly carry over from the 2-league or 4-division days, you had to have a 95+-win team to even make the postseason most years, let along do anything. You don't necessarily need that any more in the 6-division world.

So we'll just have to wait and see a few more weeks.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 12:09 PM
Another reason you don't go into a full rebuild is that the Tigers make up isn't sustainable. Fielder will eat himself out of the league. Verlander's arm will fall off. Cabrera can't carry that weight as he ages. Hunter and Martinez are 56 years old.

Whitesox029
05-21-2013, 12:12 PM
Another reason you don't go into a full rebuild is that the Tigers make up isn't sustainable. Fielder will eat himself out of the league. Verlander's arm will fall off. Cabrera can't carry that weight as he ages. Hunter and Martinez are 56 years old.
Maybe true of Fielder, Hunter, and Martinez, but if Cabrera regresses, I don't think it will be this year. The man is positively inhuman. Same with Verlander--he's too young for his arm to just blow up. He's also way smarter than most guys who throw as hard as he does, which means he'll be able to compensate for any lost velocity.

SI1020
05-21-2013, 12:16 PM
Best.Analogy.Ever. I agree.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 12:26 PM
Maybe true of Fielder, Hunter, and Martinez, but if Cabrera regresses, I don't think it will be this year. The man is positively inhuman. Same with Verlander--he's too young for his arm to just blow up. He's also way smarter than most guys who throw as hard as he does, which means he'll be able to compensate for any lost velocity.

I meant in the future. There's a track record of fat guys breaking down at their age. Verlander will continue to be a good pitcher, but not dominant. The chinks are already in the armor this year. His velocity has already decreased. Hes throwing too many change ups and he's getting hit. That Tiger team has a small window.

JB98
05-21-2013, 12:27 PM
I'm with Doub; I don't get the assertion that rebuilding with a bunch of young players automatically guarantees a playoff appearance three, four years down the road.

Calling the White Sox MLB roster terrible, pathetic when they are 4.5 games behind Detroit in late May is a bit premature. Get back to me in July.

I'm in this camp, too. I don't believe the White Sox MLB roster is "terrible" or "pathetic." Underachieving? To this point, yes. Frustrating? Sure. The Sox have several hitters producing below their career norms. In addition, the team has been hurt by injuries to key personnel. Despite that, they've managed to hang around. They are one winning streak away from being right back in the division race.

I'm not sure people know what "terrible and pathetic" means. I don't think the Sox have had a team that has fit that definition in some years. Probably 2007 would be the closest, but it's been awhile since this organization has had a 95- or 100-loss season.

If they trade Peavy, Rios, Konerko, Ramirez, Crain and Thornton, as some here seem to want, they will become "terrible and pathetic" because they don't have any MLB-ready prospects to replace them.

I just can't support the nuclear option. I don't see how it makes sense. The organization is better served to ride it out with these guys and see if they can turn it around. If they stay in the hunt into July, Hahn should try to add a bat and maybe a bullpen arm and take a shot at it. Why not?

It's real easy to sit here and say the Sox should trade any and all veterans who have value. But who exactly do you want to replace them with?

Mr. Jinx
05-21-2013, 12:34 PM
Another reason you don't go into a full rebuild is that the Tigers make up isn't sustainable. Fielder will eat himself out of the league.

How many more years do we have to hear this crap before people give it up? Yes, the guy is huge, he's also a freak of nature. Since 2006, he has played in 1121 of a possible 1134 games, 99%. He is probably the most durable guy in the majors year in and year out. There is nothing in his history to suggest that he is slowing down anytime soon either.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 12:38 PM
How many more years do we have to hear this crap before people give it up? Yes, the guy is huge, he's also a freak of nature. Since 2006, he has played in 1121 of a possible 1134 games, 99%. He is probably the most durable guy in the majors year in and year out. There is nothing in his history to suggest that he is slowing down anytime soon either.

Except every other fat ass that did the same at that age, including his dad.

doublem23
05-21-2013, 12:45 PM
How many more years do we have to hear this crap before people give it up? Yes, the guy is huge, he's also a freak of nature. Since 2006, he has played in 1121 of a possible 1134 games, 99%. He is probably the most durable guy in the majors year in and year out. There is nothing in his history to suggest that he is slowing down anytime soon either.

There is plenty of precedent to suggest larger guys don't hold up as well over the course of their careers. Prince's durability to this point has been great, but he's still only 29 years old. To think his durability in this decade translates automatically to the next would be foolish.

Sox fans shouldn't need a primer in that. Here's our beloved big man slugger, Frank Thomas:

Age 22-30: 1,236 GP out of 1,296 team games = 96%
Age 31-40: 1,086 GP out of 1,620 team games = 67%

Production also suffered :

Pre-30: .321/.443/.584, 174 OPS+, 19.24 PA/HR
31-40: .277/.390/.521, 135 OPS+, 19.45 PA/HR

Maybe Fielder will be the guy that breaks the mold, but it is much more historically contrarian to think that as he ages, he won't feel the affects of his weight.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 12:48 PM
Find me a really big guy that sustained that level after 30.

Noneck
05-21-2013, 12:51 PM
I'm in this camp, too. I don't believe the White Sox MLB roster is "terrible" or "pathetic." Underachieving? To this point, yes. Frustrating? Sure. The Sox have several hitters producing below their career norms. In addition, the team has been hurt by injuries to key personnel. Despite that, they've managed to hang around. They are one winning streak away from being right back in the division race.

I'm not sure people know what "terrible and pathetic" means. I don't think the Sox have had a team that has fit that definition in some years. Probably 2007 would be the closest, but it's been awhile since this organization has had a 95- or 100-loss season.

If they trade Peavy, Rios, Konerko, Ramirez, Crain and Thornton, as some here seem to want, they will become "terrible and pathetic" because they don't have any MLB-ready prospects to replace them.

I just can't support the nuclear option. I don't see how it makes sense. The organization is better served to ride it out with these guys and see if they can turn it around. If they stay in the hunt into July, Hahn should try to add a bat and maybe a bullpen arm and take a shot at it. Why not?

It's real easy to sit here and say the Sox should trade any and all veterans who have value. But who exactly do you want to replace them with?

I want another summer of in the hunt baseball. Is it possible? I dont know but we should in about a month. At that point decisions will have to be made, if our summer is over by then Thornton and Crain are FAs after this year so thats a easy one. Paul is a FA after this year and might be done and can not be counted on for the future. Ramirez, Peavy and Rios are tricky. They are not really that expensive for how they are playing but will they really make much of a difference in the future of this team? Also what type of return will you get for them?

I guess the best I can hope for is one more summer of competitive baseball. If the Sox can get back into it in the next month, I would love for management to go balls out at the trade deadline. This may be the last shot in quite sometime but I am talking as a fan not someone that has a financial interest in the team.

Hitmen77
05-21-2013, 12:56 PM
You love your children no matter how much or how badly they screw up. You just have to hope they get it right at some point.

Well said!

JB98
05-21-2013, 12:59 PM
I want another summer of in the hunt baseball. Is it possible? I dont know but we should in about a month. At that point decisions will have to be made, if our summer is over by then Thornton and Crain are FAs after this year so thats a easy one. Paul is a FA after this year and might be done and can not be counted on for the future. Ramirez, Peavy and Rios are tricky. They are not really that expensive for how they are playing but will they really make much of a difference in the future of this team? Also what type of return will you get for them?

I guess the best I can hope for is one more summer of competitive baseball. If the Sox can get back into it in the next month, I would love for management to go balls out at the trade deadline. This may be the last shot in quite sometime but I am talking as a fan not someone that has a financial interest in the team.

That's the big question right there. Hopefully, they play well enough that they don't have to make that decision. But, if they do fall out of it in June, they have to consider dealing those guys.

For me, you can't deal Ramirez, Peavy and Rios for middling prospects and salary relief. You better be getting some people who can play right away because you'd be creating a lot of holes that need to be filled. If the right deal isn't there to be made, then don't make it. Keep your assets and regroup in the offseason.

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 01:05 PM
You love your children no matter how much or how badly they screw up. You just have to hope they get it right at some point.

Best.Analogy.Ever.
I don't think that's an even close to the same analogy. My children are my flesh and blood. I have helped raise them. I've been with them every day of their lives. They are a part of me.

What baseball team you root for, no matter how much you try to deny it, is a choice that at some point in your life you made.

Baseball teams are like wives/husbands. You can spend nearly your entire life together, but ultimately if all they do is make you miserable you should probably find a new one.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 01:07 PM
They also have the opportunity to move one of the lefties and compete while getting younger. If Danks can come back, they should move one of them anyway. You just have to pick the right one.

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 01:08 PM
Find me a really big guy that sustained that level after 30.
Here's the thing. In the last 30 years, anyone you find you will claim it's because of steroids.

Noneck
05-21-2013, 01:08 PM
For me, you can't deal Ramirez, Peavy and Rios for middling prospects and salary relief. You better be getting some people who can play right away because you'd be creating a lot of holes that need to be filled. If the right deal isn't there to be made, then don't make it. Keep your assets and regroup in the offseason.

You dont give them away at that point but then what do you do in the offseason if the return is similar? I doubt the Sox would carry 37M of extra salary knowing the team is going nowhere. My hope is that there actually is value in these 3, either at the trade deadline or offseason.

SI1020
05-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Find me a really big guy that sustained that level after 30. Rick Reuschel, Smokey Burgess, Terry Pendleton, CC Sabathia, Mickey Lolich, Boog Powell, Kirby Puckett (sidelined by glaucoma), Tony Gwynn, Babe Ruth. There are others I'm sure and I left out some borderline cases. Sabathia will be 33 this year but looks to have staying power. I believe when it's all said and done Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder will be added to the list. I think you are correct in asserting that most overweight guys break down prematurely, but I'd say maybe not as young or across the board that one might assume.

Moses_Scurry
05-21-2013, 01:23 PM
I don't think that's an even close to the same analogy. My children are my flesh and blood. I have helped raise them. I've been with them every day of their lives. They are a part of me.

What baseball team you root for, no matter how much you try to deny it, is a choice that at some point in your life you made.

Baseball teams are like wives/husbands. You can spend nearly your entire life together, but ultimately if all they do is make you miserable you should probably find a new one.

If I could have flipped a switch to stop liking the Sox and start liking a different team, I would have done it a long time ago. If it were that easy we would all be Yankee and Laker fans.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 01:24 PM
You dont give them away at that point but then what do you do in the offseason if the return is similar? I doubt the Sox would carry 37M of extra salary knowing the team is going nowhere. My hope is that there actually is value in these 3, either at the trade deadline or offseason.

At that point, you might as well move Sale too. What's the point of having an ace if you don't plan on competing for the next 5 years? What's the difference between 72 wins and 62?

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 01:24 PM
If I could have flipped a switch to stop liking the Sox and start liking a different team, I would have done it a long time ago. If it were that easy we would all be Yankee and Laker fans.
I did it once. What's so hard?

I also wouldn't want to root for those two teams because, well, I don't want to be a douchebag.

Golden Sox
05-21-2013, 01:26 PM
Does anybody out there in WSI land know why Beckham started at shortstop last night? If the White Sox think he can play shortstop, have we seen the last of Ramerez on this team?

JB98
05-21-2013, 01:26 PM
At that point, you might as well move Sale too. What's the point of having an ace if you don't plan on competing for the next 5 years? What's the difference between 72 wins and 62?

Why would they not plan on competing for the next five years?

Hitmen77
05-21-2013, 01:26 PM
White Sox Baseball: Waiting for fat all-stars on other teams to falter. :tongue:

I'm in this camp, too. I don't believe the White Sox MLB roster is "terrible" or "pathetic." Underachieving? To this point, yes. Frustrating? Sure. The Sox have several hitters producing below their career norms. In addition, the team has been hurt by injuries to key personnel. Despite that, they've managed to hang around. They are one winning streak away from being right back in the division race.

I'm not sure people know what "terrible and pathetic" means. I don't think the Sox have had a team that has fit that definition in some years. Probably 2007 would be the closest, but it's been awhile since this organization has had a 95- or 100-loss season.

If they trade Peavy, Rios, Konerko, Ramirez, Crain and Thornton, as some here seem to want, they will become "terrible and pathetic" because they don't have any MLB-ready prospects to replace them.

I just can't support the nuclear option. I don't see how it makes sense. The organization is better served to ride it out with these guys and see if they can turn it around. If they stay in the hunt into July, Hahn should try to add a bat and maybe a bullpen arm and take a shot at it. Why not?

It's real easy to sit here and say the Sox should trade any and all veterans who have value. But who exactly do you want to replace them with?

I agree. All "blowing it up" this season will do is make the Sox truly terrible. Worst of all, I have my doubts that doing so will exactly land us a bunch of top-notch prospects. More likely, we'll just end up with another batch of mediocre players that won't amount to much.

I wish the organization would improve their success in developing minor league players into solid MLB players, but I don't think trading players like Rios and Peavy should be their plan for doing this.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 01:29 PM
Why would they not plan on competing for the next five years?

If we're gonna blow it up, it will take that long. The team would be starting over with few MiLB assets. You'd need an organizational wide rebuild.

Paulwny
05-21-2013, 01:30 PM
Rick Reuschel, Smokey Burgess, Terry Pendleton, CC Sabathia, Mickey Lolich, Boog Powell, Kirby Puckett (sidelined by glaucoma), Tony Gwynn, Babe Ruth. There are others I'm sure and I left out some borderline cases. Sabathia will be 33 this year but looks to have staying power. I believe when it's all said and done Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder will be added to the list. I think you are correct in asserting that most overweight guys break down prematurely, but I'd say maybe not as young or across the board that one might assume.


Add Frank Howard to the list.

doublem23
05-21-2013, 01:31 PM
Does anybody out there in WSI land know why Beckham started at shortstop last night? If the White Sox think he can play shortstop, have we seen the last of Ramerez on this team?

I sincerely doubt it, Gordon is a fine 2B but he does not appear to have the skills to play SS at this level. I would suspect more than anything else, they were trying to get Gordon his rehab PT in while keeping Carlos Sanchez, one of the team's top prospects, in the lineup, as well. I suspect Beckham can play SS at AAA better than Sanchez.

JB98
05-21-2013, 01:31 PM
You dont give them away at that point but then what do you do in the offseason if the return is similar? I doubt the Sox would carry 37M of extra salary knowing the team is going nowhere. My hope is that there actually is value in these 3, either at the trade deadline or offseason.

Then you keep them and try to win next year. It isn't real hard to put together a roster capable of competing in the AL Central. I think Sox fans are a little too eager to throw in the towel. I understand the team hasn't played well this season, but I wouldn't give up on this year yet, let alone next year or the next five years.

We have people who are already resigned to the team being bad for the foreseeable future, and I just don't see it that way.

Can you tell I'm not one of the people who wants to trade places with the Cubs? At least we know the Sox organization can scout and develop pitching.

hawkjt
05-21-2013, 02:26 PM
The Sox have the most important thing in the sport....a young,solid rotation,with Danks,Sale,Quintana,Axe and Santiago...even without Peavy.

They can build around that rotation,and a solid bullpen,adding parts like Gilaspie and Keppinger,to stay competitive.

Sox are not the Cubs,where they can actually go ahead and tell their fans that the plan is to lose over 100 games three years in a row to acquire good draft picks and not even pretend to try to compete until 2016..5 year plan. Cub fans will still attend during this dry stretch.

If the Sox try that, there will be tumbleweeds blowing around the park by year 2 of such plan.

SI1020
05-21-2013, 02:37 PM
Add Frank Howard to the list. Yes "Hondo" is definitely a good addition to that list. How about HOF catcher Ernie Lombardi? If I had time, there are others I'd bet.

Noneck
05-21-2013, 03:14 PM
Except every other fat ass that did the same at that age, including his dad.


His dad was still pretty good till he was 32. Thats 3 more years for prince.

doublem23
05-21-2013, 03:21 PM
His dad was still pretty good till he was 32. Thats 3 more years for prince.

That would leave them with only 4 years and $96 million left on his contract.

Nobody can say for certain when Prince's physical abilities will wane, but it seems like with these bigger guys, when they're done, they hit a WALL. A lot of them don't seem to taper off the way other ballplayers do, I'm guessing these guys' freakish athletic skills are able to compensate for their physical prowess for a certain amount of time but when those abilities begin to wane, there's no lingering athleticism to guide the plane to the ground safely. They just crash.

That's a bit of a scary circumstance for a guy owed $24 million annually for another 6 seasons.

Noneck
05-21-2013, 03:24 PM
That would leave them with only 4 years and $96 million left on his contract.

Oh Im not supporting the contract, just saying that detroit isnt falling off the face of the earth anytime soon.

russ99
05-21-2013, 03:31 PM
Seems like our cheapness in the draft and development his bit us on the behind (at least where position players are concerned) and we're going to have to do well under the new rules for 3-4 years to catch up to even think about a tear-down rebuild.

Yet there reasons to stick with the majority of the roster, keep the gate relatively high, our players' overall low trade value, and that there's nothing on the farm to replace these guys.

We're a big market team, and with the young arms on the staff and in the pen, shouldn't need to tear it all down Astros-style.

Hahn just needs to make smarter moves than Kenny did when we get a bunch of salary room to work with the next few offseasons. One-dimensional hitters need not apply.

doublem23
05-21-2013, 03:34 PM
Oh Im not supporting the contract, just saying that detroit isnt falling off the face of the earth anytime soon.

Well they're not exactly crushing it, either. We're talking about a team that's a whole 19 games over .500 since the start of the 2012 season, playoffs included.

Noneck
05-21-2013, 03:46 PM
Well they're not exactly crushing it, either. We're talking about a team that's a whole 19 games over .500 since the start of the 2012 season, playoffs included.


No but anyone who had to bet their childrens lives on who will win the central, Id say 90% would pick detroit.

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 03:55 PM
I meant in the future. There's a track record of fat guys breaking down at their age.
I'm willing to bet, statistically speaking across American averages based on body fat %s, that Prince Fielder is less fat than you.

SCCWS
05-21-2013, 04:16 PM
Find me a really big guy that sustained that level after 30.

Right off the top of my head, David Ortiz

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 04:49 PM
I'm willing to bet, statistically speaking across American averages based on body fat %s, that Prince Fielder is less fat than you.

There's no ****ing way. I'm a 6'1/180 lb bike messenger. Plus, that's the worst Internet argument ever. Next you're going to tell me, "at least he makes more money than you."

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 04:52 PM
Right off the top of my head, David Ortiz

Numbers dropped dramatically at 31.

Mr. Jinx
05-21-2013, 04:57 PM
Numbers dropped dramatically at 31.

Right around the time MLB started drug testing too. I think that has much more to do with it.

Mr. Jinx
05-21-2013, 04:58 PM
There is plenty of precedent to suggest larger guys don't hold up as well over the course of their careers. Prince's durability to this point has been great, but he's still only 29 years old. To think his durability in this decade translates automatically to the next would be foolish.

Sox fans shouldn't need a primer in that. Here's our beloved big man slugger, Frank Thomas:

Age 22-30: 1,236 GP out of 1,296 team games = 96%
Age 31-40: 1,086 GP out of 1,620 team games = 67%

Production also suffered :

Pre-30: .321/.443/.584, 174 OPS+, 19.24 PA/HR
31-40: .277/.390/.521, 135 OPS+, 19.45 PA/HR

Maybe Fielder will be the guy that breaks the mold, but it is much more historically contrarian to think that as he ages, he won't feel the affects of his weight.

And to automatically assume a guy who has never been on the DL and almost never misses a game is all of a sudden going to break down is equally foolish I'd say.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 05:07 PM
And to automatically assume a guy who has never been on the DL and almost never misses a game is all of a sudden going to break down is equally foolish I'd say.

It's definitely no foolish to say 300+ lb humans break down physically after 30.

Red Barchetta
05-21-2013, 05:17 PM
Honestly no, because for all the hype of their young players like Starlin, Rizzo, Soler, etc. they have not yet been able to prove they can identify or develop pitching. The Sox, for all their woes, do seem to at least be able to cultivate arms; who would have thought that as we enter the last week of May that Hector, Quintana, and Axelrod would have pitched well enough to justify a SP spot when Danks returns. For all the flash and sizzle the Cubs rebuild gets, they still have not proven they can find any solution to their organization's serious lack of quality pitchers.

That said, neither team is in a real good place right now. But I don't, at all, think it is a given that in say, 2016, 2017, or 2018 the Cubs will DEFINITELY be a better team than the Sox as the organizations are cosnstucted right now.

...and they will have the luxery of rebuilding in front of 3 million fans because a trendy neighborhood, beer, and sunshine win in Chicago. :scratch:

SCCWS
05-21-2013, 05:55 PM
Numbers dropped dramatically at 31.

Wrong. He became a full time player at age 24. From 24-29 he hit 167 home runs From 30-35 he hit 368. According to my math,he hit twice as many homers in his 30's as he hit in his 20's.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 06:04 PM
Wrong. He became a full time player at age 24. From 24-29 he hit 167 home runs From 30-35 he hit 368. According to my math,he hit twice as many homers in his 30's as he hit in his 20's.

Of course you throw in his monster year when he was 30, which I didn't include. His numbers have still nosedived after that peak year. If Fielder performs at Ortiz' level at 32, it's one of the worst contracts in baseball.

Has Ortiz really hit 535 home runs?

Tragg
05-21-2013, 06:44 PM
Beckham at Short..hmmm. TCM on his way out? Would not break my heart if they trade him, never a big fan of his.

Neither - we need a backup shortstop. If Beckham can do that, it allows us to keep Keppinger and Gillespie (neither of whom can play short) on the roster. So Beckham can shift to short to give Alexei a day off.

As for rebuilding, our starting pitching will likely keep us within 5 or 6 games most of the way. I'm okay with low-cost addition.
And our 2 sellable players, Peavy and Rios, will be sellable this time next year (at a lower price, however).

kittle42
05-21-2013, 07:28 PM
I ask this in seriousness, and I know this has been addressed before, but if you don't like anything about the organization, you think that there is some conspiracy for it to suck, why do you remain a fan?

There's no conspiracy. They are just wrong a great percentage of the time. I am a fan because I am a fan. I support them at all turns even if I think they are goddamn morons. I may not pay attention to every game because it is a waste of my time at this point, but I still look to see the score every day and hope that it is a White Sox Winner. Just because I see no hope for them either (1) winning the division in 2013 or (2) being capable of building any kind of young hope for the future in the near future doesn't mean I am not a fan.

But go ahead, take my Fan Card. It's good for a free hot dog with a two-inning line wait at the Cell. And if we call them the Rainbow White Sox, even better, no?

kittle42
05-21-2013, 07:34 PM
...and they will have the luxery of rebuilding in front of 3 million fans because a trendy neighborhood, beer, and sunshine win in Chicago. :scratch:

If you won't rebuild because of the Cubs, just move. Hell, they almost did it a few decades ago.

kittle42
05-21-2013, 07:39 PM
I'm willing to bet, statistically speaking across American averages based on body fat %s, that Prince Fielder is less fat than you.

Unsurprisingly, this argument loses the internets.

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 07:51 PM
There's no ****ing way. I'm a 6'1/180 lb bike messenger. Plus, that's the worst Internet argument ever. Next you're going to tell me, "at least he makes more money than you."
Just because you're smaller than him doesn't mean he has more body fat than you. Maybe you are in better shape. What I was trying to say was that he may weigh more, he may be bigger, but I guarantee you Prince Fielder is in better physical condition than over 50% of Americans.

When I was coaching wrestling I had a lower body fat % at 275lbs than our 103 pounder. Body fat % has nothing to do with size. One of the highest body fat % I've ever seen out of a HS health class came from a 5'1/95 lb cheerleader.

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 07:52 PM
There's no conspiracy. They are just wrong a great percentage of the time. I am a fan because I am a fan. I support them at all turns even if I think they are goddamn morons. I may not pay attention to every game because it is a waste of my time at this point, but I still look to see the score every day and hope that it is a White Sox Winner. Just because I see no hope for them either (1) winning the division in 2013 or (2) being capable of building any kind of young hope for the future in the near future doesn't mean I am not a fan.

But go ahead, take my Fan Card. It's good for a free hot dog with a two-inning line wait at the Cell. And if we call them the Rainbow White Sox, even better, no?
I don't care if you're a fan or not. I just don't know why, if something makes you so miserable and you hate it so much, you continue to call yourself a fan of it and continue to discuss how much you dislike it on the internet.

kittle42
05-21-2013, 08:05 PM
I don't care if you're a fan or not. I just don't know why, if something makes you so miserable and you hate it so much, you continue to call yourself a fan of it and continue to discuss how much you dislike it on the internet.

That makes me a fan. Visit the rest of the internets.

doublem23
05-21-2013, 10:38 PM
Just because you're smaller than him doesn't mean he has more body fat than you. Maybe you are in better shape. What I was trying to say was that he may weigh more, he may be bigger, but I guarantee you Prince Fielder is in better physical condition than over 50% of Americans.

Considering he's playing in an elite, professional sports league, being healthier than half the total population of the fattest country in the history of the world is not exactly saying anything...

Prince could be fitter than 95% of the general American population, but that still probably puts him in the fattest 1% of all MLB baseball players ever

ZombieRob
05-21-2013, 10:40 PM
Fat is the new skinny.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 10:43 PM
Just because you're smaller than him doesn't mean he has more body fat than you. Maybe you are in better shape. What I was trying to say was that he may weigh more, he may be bigger, but I guarantee you Prince Fielder is in better physical condition than over 50% of Americans.

When I was coaching wrestling I had a lower body fat % at 275lbs than our 103 pounder. Body fat % has nothing to do with size. One of the highest body fat % I've ever seen out of a HS health class came from a 5'1/95 lb cheerleader.

Looks totally healthy.
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Prince+Fielder+World+Series+Detroit+Tigers+n-apMEb_rS1x.jpg

Mr. Jinx
05-21-2013, 10:51 PM
It's definitely no foolish to say 300+ lb humans break down physically after 30.

It's no foolish to me. People have been saying for years that Fielder will break down shortly and yet he continues to play 161-162 games a year. Until he doesn't, it seems silly to me to assume he will break down in the near future.

Lip Man 1
05-21-2013, 10:58 PM
Many said the same thing about Sabathia four years ago.

Lip

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 11:06 PM
Many said the same thing about Sabathia four years ago.

Lip

Fat pitchers are totally different. Fat pitchers play once a week and don't need to move much. Fat position players are a whole different story. I asked for examples earlier and got about 10 marginal players, some pitchers, and Babe Ruth, who probably fell off in his early 30's.

Apologies for sounding like a fattist, but we're talking about pro sports and $94M owed to an obese hitter. I'll be shocked if that contract doesn't look absolutely awful in 2-3 years. Cabrera might be worse as he's fat and a drunk.

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 11:14 PM
That makes me a fan. Visit the rest of the internets.
Man, if I could only be half as intelligent or awesome as you...

Bobby Thigpen
05-21-2013, 11:16 PM
Considering he's playing in an elite, professional sports league, being healthier than half the total population of the fattest country in the history of the world is not exactly saying anything...

Prince could be fitter than 95% of the general American population, but that still probably puts him in the fattest 1% of all MLB baseball players ever
Perhaps. But I have an issue with people that probably are giant lazy asses themselves sitting on their ass next to their computer ridiculing people who work their ass off to be a professional athlete for being a "fat ass".

Wanna go after Vince Wilfork for that? Sure. But Prince Fielder as a fat ass when the people typing it probably couldn't complete a single one of his workouts? Awesome.

TaylorStSox
05-21-2013, 11:26 PM
Perhaps. But I have an issue with people that probably are giant lazy asses themselves sitting on their ass next to their computer ridiculing people who work their ass off to be a professional athlete for being a "fat ass".

Wanna go after Vince Wilfork for that? Sure. But Prince Fielder as a fat ass when the people typing it probably couldn't complete a single one of his workouts? Awesome.

It was me, and your argument is still complete garbage. First, one doesn't need to be better to criticize another. If that were the case, none of us could be critical of films. I can't do anything Michael bay can do, but that doesn't mean I can't say his films suck. Secondly, I can't hit a baseball 400 feet, but I guarantee Prince Fielder's fat ass couldn't ride a bike as fast or far as me, and I do it everyday, for pennies.

kittle42
05-22-2013, 07:58 AM
Man, if I could only be half as intelligent or awesome as you...

It's important to keep the hope.

GoSox2K3
05-22-2013, 08:02 AM
I don't care if you're a fan or not. I just don't know why, if something makes you so miserable and you hate it so much, you continue to call yourself a fan of it and continue to discuss how much you dislike it on the internet.

Who appointed you the WSI fan police?

You don't like the direction the organization is taking? THEN WHY STAY A FAN? WHY ARE YOU STILL A FAN? ANSWER MY QUESTION! :rolleyes:

I'm willing to bet, statistically speaking across American averages based on body fat %s, that Prince Fielder is less fat than you.

....which has absolutely nothing to do with Prince Fielder's or any other player's ability to play baseball.

Man, if I could only be half as intelligent or awesome as you...

Just because you're a smart ass to everyone here doesn't make you right. I thought this thread was supposed to be about Hahn's rebuilding thoughts but it's been hijacked by you ripping on other posters and making bull**** arguments about why other people are still fans (and how fat they are).

Bobby Thigpen
05-22-2013, 08:28 AM
Who appointed you the WSI fan police?

You don't like the direction the organization is taking? THEN WHY STAY A FAN? WHY ARE YOU STILL A FAN? ANSWER MY QUESTION!


Just because you're a smart ass to everyone here doesn't make you right. I thought this thread was supposed to be about Hahn's rebuilding thoughts but it's been hijacked by you ripping on other posters and making bull**** arguments about why other people are still fans (and how fat they are).
When it has been the same complaints over and over and over and over again from the same people, you start to wonder why, if it makes them so unhappy they continue to support that team.

I just don't get why it's acceptable to call someone a fat ass, when pretty much every other derogatory term imaginable isn't allowed.

Bobby Thigpen
05-22-2013, 08:29 AM
It's important to keep the hope.
One day, maybe.

Paulwny
05-22-2013, 10:28 AM
Fat pitchers are totally different. Fat pitchers play once a week and don't need to move much. Fat position players are a whole different story. I asked for examples earlier and got about 10 marginal players, some pitchers, and Babe Ruth, who probably fell off in his early 30's.

Apologies for sounding like a fattist, but we're talking about pro sports and $94M owed to an obese hitter. I'll be shocked if that contract doesn't look absolutely awful in 2-3 years. Cabrera might be worse as he's fat and a drunk.

Marginal Players?
After age 30
Frank Howard- > 40hr 3 times-4 time all star
Tony Gwynn- 9 time all star
Kirby Puckett- 5 time all star
Check their stats after age 30

I forgot about Yogi Berra-7 time all star after age 30

TaylorStSox
05-22-2013, 10:58 AM
Marginal Players?
After age 30
Frank Howard- > 40hr 3 times-4 time all star
Tony Gwynn- 9 time all star
Kirby Puckett- 5 time all star
Check their stats after age 30

I forgot about Yogi Berra-7 time all star after age 30

http://http://chocolatecityreview.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/howard.jpg
http://http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2004/10/26/dyYcFhRx.jpg

I think we have a slightly different definition of fat. Puckett and Gwynn didn't get fat until late in their career. Fielder has been fat his whole life.

Paulwny
05-22-2013, 11:19 AM
http://http://chocolatecityreview.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/howard.jpg
http://http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2004/10/26/dyYcFhRx.jpg

I think we have a slightly different definition of fat. Puckett and Gwynn didn't get fat until late in their career. Fielder has been fat his whole life.


I think we both also have a different definition of " marginal players".

TaylorStSox
05-22-2013, 11:39 AM
I think we both also have a different definition of " marginal players".

Not really. I was dismissing the nonfat players you named. Puckett and Gwynn didn't get fat until the end and Frank Howard was anything but fat.

Paulwny
05-22-2013, 11:46 AM
Not really. I was dismissing the nonfat players you named. Puckett and Gwynn didn't get fat until the end and Frank Howard was anything but fat.

Your quote, " I asked for examples earlier and got about 10 marginal players ....."
You called them marginal players.

kittle42
05-22-2013, 06:32 PM
get why it's acceptable to call someone a fat ass, when pretty much every other derogatory term imaginable isn't allowed.

Because unless it's a glandular or other disorder, it's a life choice. Like being an alcoholic. No different.

SI1020
05-22-2013, 06:55 PM
Looks totally healthy.
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Prince+Fielder+World+Series+Detroit+Tigers+n-apMEb_rS1x.jpg He looks great to me. He projects solid strength.

Bobby Thigpen
05-22-2013, 06:56 PM
Because unless it's a glandular or other disorder, it's a life choice. Like being an alcoholic. No different.
Yes. Because no one in history has ever been big before. He had no genetic disposition to be his size. I'm sure, if he just quit sitting on his couch eating cheetos he'd be 175 lbs. Wait, he did quit eating fat ass foods, worked his butt off in workouts, and was still big. Damn his life choices.

kittle42
05-22-2013, 07:00 PM
Yes. Because no one in history has ever been big before. He had no genetic disposition to be his size. I'm sure, if he just quit sitting on his couch eating cheetos he'd be 175 lbs. Wait, he did quit eating fat ass foods, worked his butt off in workouts, and was still big. Damn his life choices.

Vegetarian doesn't equal not eating "fat ass foods." One still has to pick healthy options despite being vegetarian. Think about how much vegetarian food has copious amounts of fat in it. Also, from his Wiki page:

"Prior to the 2008 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Milwaukee_Brewers_season) Fielder became a vegetarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism). Fielder made this choice after reading Skinny Bitch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinny_Bitch) by Rory Freedman and Kim Barnouin, given to him by his wife. However, his time as a vegetarian was short-lived; in January 2012, in his introductory press conference as a Detroit Tiger, he stated, "I'm not a vegetarian. I was, for like three months."

So, really, please know what you are talking about next time. Saves me time (as in the 10 seconds it could have taken to find this info). Thanks in advance!

SI1020
05-22-2013, 07:15 PM
Fat pitchers are totally different. Fat pitchers play once a week and don't need to move much. Fat position players are a whole different story. I asked for examples earlier and got about 10 marginal players, some pitchers, and Babe Ruth, who probably fell off in his early 30's.

Apologies for sounding like a fattist, but we're talking about pro sports and $94M owed to an obese hitter. I'll be shocked if that contract doesn't look absolutely awful in 2-3 years. Cabrera might be worse as he's fat and a drunk. As Paulwny showed you the term "marginal player" was hardly fair. Face it the world is made up of all types and in statistics we learn about "outliers". It's not a cookie cutter world. Not yet anyway. So you're a lean mean bike messenger machine and really I think that's great. I'll still take Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera on my team any day of the week. As for Babe Ruth falling off in his early 30's you be the judge.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml

kittle42
05-22-2013, 07:37 PM
As for Babe Ruth falling off in his early 30's you be the judge.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml

If the posters on this site took 1-2 minutes to check Baseball Reference, we would see a lot fewer ignorant posts.

delben91
05-22-2013, 07:41 PM
If the posters on this site took 1-2 minutes to check Baseball Reference, we would see a lot fewer ignorant posts.

Hyperbole is much more fun than fact checking (says a poster who has admittedly had his share of hyperbolic moments...)

kittle42
05-22-2013, 07:44 PM
Hyperbole is much more fun than fact checking (says a poster who has admittedly had his share of hyperbolic moments...)

Well, so have I. Hypocrisy is admittedly hard to avoid on the internet. But fact checking is *so* easy with sites like that.

RKMeibalane
05-22-2013, 08:01 PM
When it has been the same complaints over and over and over and over again from the same people, you start to wonder why, if it makes them so unhappy they continue to support that team.

If I may be completely honest, my interest in the White Sox has decreased since Frank Thomas left the team, so it's accurate to say that I'm not as big a fan of the team as I once was.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2013, 11:39 AM
Good read:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/20282782-419/buy-or-sell-its-too-early-to-tell-for-white-sox.html

Lip

MarksBrokenFoot
05-23-2013, 12:48 PM
Because unless it's a glandular or other disorder, it's a life choice. Like being an alcoholic. No different.

Why would you choose to be wrong twice in such a short post? Is there some race to be wrong I don't know about?

TaylorStSox
05-23-2013, 01:42 PM
If the posters on this site took 1-2 minutes to check Baseball Reference, we would see a lot fewer ignorant posts.

Well, I was equally wrong about Ruth as was the guy that claimed David Ortiz hit 350 or so home runs in 5 years.

Like I said, Puckett and Gwynn weren't fat until late in their careers and Howard wasn't fat.

There's precedent for fat players to do well into the 30's, but it's rare. I'm glad the Sox don't owe $96m to a guy that's 300+.

The Tigers have a small window because they're old and fat and Verlander's dominance has a shelf life. I heard he got rocked again last night.

kittle42
05-23-2013, 06:30 PM
Why would you choose to be wrong twice in such a short post? Is there some race to be wrong I don't know about?

Being obese, minus a genetic predisposition/glandular disorder, is 100% a choice, as is being an alcoholic when not genetically predisposed.

kittle42
05-23-2013, 06:31 PM
Why would you choose to be wrong twice in such a short post? Is there some race to be wrong I don't know about?

Also, yes, and I win.

SI1020
05-23-2013, 11:28 PM
Being obese, minus a genetic predisposition/glandular disorder, is 100% a choice, as is being an alcoholic when not genetically predisposed. We have almost totally removed personal responsibility out of the equation of life.

kufram
05-24-2013, 12:42 AM
Being obese, minus a genetic predisposition/glandular disorder, is 100% a choice, as is being an alcoholic when not genetically predisposed.

This statement reveals so much. The entire medical profession can't explain alcoholism and yet you know it all.

kufram
05-24-2013, 04:18 AM
As Paulwny showed you the term "marginal player" was hardly fair. Face it the world is made up of all types and in statistics we learn about "outliers". It's not a cookie cutter world. Not yet anyway. So you're a lean mean bike messenger machine and really I think that's great. I'll still take Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera on my team any day of the week. As for Babe Ruth falling off in his early 30's you be the judge.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml

I agree. Fielder and Cabrera would be welcome on my team. If only everyone would do what some people think is best for everyone. Some people are exceptions to the rules.

If you look at an acuarial table it will show, for each age, what the probability is that a person of a given age will die before his or her next birthday. But if you look at one person that table will tell you little or nothing.

kittle42
05-24-2013, 04:37 AM
This statement reveals so much. The entire medical profession can't explain alcoholism and yet you know it all.

I know a lot of alcoholics and a lot of straight edgers, and a lot of people in between. Does that count for anything? I don't mean to make statements of opinion as fact like munch does, but this seems like a pretty safe bet to me. I mean, don't pick it up, and it never happens. This coming from a heavy drinker with a wife who is/was in AA.

Also, thank you! I have often considered myself ahead of the medical profession. I was in south England last week. I should have asked you to meet up so I could have answered your questions on everything, being the authority and all. You would have had insights people can only dream of!

Anyway, back to the matter at hand - the alcoholism discussion (which I wish I had not started) doesn't change my opinion on the obesity portion of what I stated. A choice almost 100% of the time.

kufram
05-24-2013, 05:42 AM
I know a lot of alcoholics and a lot of straight edgers, and a lot of people in between. Does that count for anything? I don't mean to make statements of opinion as fact like munch does, but this seems like a pretty safe bet to me. I mean, don't pick it up, and it never happens. This coming from a heavy drinker with a wife who is/was in AA.

Also, thank you! I have often considered myself ahead of the medical profession. I was in south England last week. I should have asked you to meet up so I could have answered your questions on everything, being the authority and all. You would have had insights people can only dream of!

Anyway, back to the matter at hand - the alcoholism discussion (which I wish I had not started) doesn't change my opinion on the obesity portion of what I stated. A choice almost 100% of the time.

Thank you for your kind offer but I don't have any questions for you.

kittle42
05-24-2013, 11:57 AM
Thank you for your kind offer but I don't have any questions for you.

It is great to know I have answered them all on this board already! I enjoy providing helpful services to people.

Please remember that I have offered to provide similar valuable services in the future.

doublem23
05-24-2013, 12:04 PM
http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1537911/fin_medium.jpg

I don't even know what you guys are talking about any more