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Lip Man 1
05-19-2013, 05:52 PM
Angels win season series 4-3.

0-7 RISP.

Peavy wild and it costs him. Walked in two runs.

Omogrosso's ERA is now almost six. Pitching as well as Veal and Heath isn't he?

Sox get five hits...total.

Now they get to face a pair of 6-0 pitchers the next few days. Fun!

Lip

Soxman219
05-19-2013, 05:54 PM
Angels win season series 4-3.

Peavy wild and it costs him. Walked in two runs.

Sox get five hits...total.

Now they get to face a pair of 6-0 pitchers the next few days. Fun!

Lip

Watch the Sox beat them then lose to some nobody later this week.

Lip Man 1
05-19-2013, 05:57 PM
Soxman:

Well we've seen that before... a lot since 2003.

They'll play the top teams like Texas, the Yankees, Boston very well...then they'll roll over and die against garbage.

It wouldn't surprise me what you said in the least.

Lip

TDog
05-19-2013, 06:22 PM
Actually, you can win without offense. You can also win without pitching. You generally lose when you don't have either. The Sox lost today because Peavy didn't pitch very well, and the offense couldn't overcome that. The Sox needed more from Peavy today because he obviously wasn't going to come out early to put more strain on the bullpen. Starters who walk in two runs with their team already losing by two generally don't stay in for two more innings. I am guessing that Ventura wanted a well-rested bullpen for Axelrod's start against the Red Sox

If Peavy was on, two runs would have been enough to win, even with a run in the ninth. The Sox beat the Angels scoring only two runs through eight and another in the ninth in Sale's start and scored nine runs in losing Santiago's start.

LoveYourSuit
05-19-2013, 06:27 PM
Brooks and the front office should take a snap shot of the non existing buzz for this team.

5 posts after a loss.

The sox are no longer relevant.

Tragg
05-19-2013, 06:39 PM
I am guessing that Ventura wanted a well-rested bullpen for Axelrod's start against the Red Sox



This business of punting games if the starter doesn't have it to save the pen for the next game is questionable. What if you don't get to the next game with Ws?

tstrike2000
05-19-2013, 06:49 PM
I believe JB or someone said it well, if this team could just catch the ball and stop the over abundance of walks, we'd be above .500.

tstrike2000
05-19-2013, 06:59 PM
Brooks and the front office should take a snap shot of the non existing buzz for this team.

5 posts after a loss.

The sox are no longer relevant.

It's pretty much been like that since last summer. Even with spending all those days in first place, this club and front office didn't exactly scream excitement before the offense died in September. I'm not sure if some of it is apathy from '11 that kind of carried over in conjunction with their play this year.

TDog
05-19-2013, 07:13 PM
This business of punting games if the starter doesn't have it to save the pen for the next game is questionable. What if you don't get to the next game with Ws?

That's an oversimplification. If your bullpen needs more rest to be more effective, going deep into your bullpen when your team is already trailing by four on the road might be counterproductive. When a team is losing, sometimes it's more important for a pitcher to give up innings than to burn more bullpen innings. Last season, as strong as the bullpen seemed to be, the Sox were close to the top in the majors in leads given up by relievers after the fifth inning. Part of that was the number of close games they played. Part of that was probably overwork of some of the relievers.

Major league baseball managers are more than head coaches, and baseball is unique among major sports in that pitching is such an important factor in whether you win or lose, and it is the most difficult part of the game to manage. Mangers have to manage their team through a season. They have to make decisions that affect their ability to compete in future games. It isn't a matter of managing every game to win. It's a matter of putting your team in a position to win as many games as you can.

That is why a manager betting on his team to win a game is a severe violation of the team's trust. If he is betting on a game, he could have financial incentive to make decisions he wouldn't otherwise make because they weaken his team. If he isn't betting on a specific game, he might not make moves that could give his team a better chance of winning in favor of having a better chance of winning.

Peavy giving up four runs lost the game. Taking Peavy out after the second bases-loaded walk, as he might have done in a must-win situation, wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game, but it would have burned more bullpen innings.

Lip Man 1
05-19-2013, 07:31 PM
Brooks and the front office should take a snap shot of the non existing buzz for this team.

5 posts after a loss.

The sox are no longer relevant.

Love:

Again I quote Kittle from yesterday (which made me laugh when I read it but upon reflection is very sad) "White Sox Baseball 2013: Even the die-hards don't care anymore..."

Lip

RKMeibalane
05-19-2013, 07:54 PM
Love:

Again I quote Kittle from yesterday (which made me laugh when I read it but upon reflection is very sad) "White Sox Baseball 2013: Even the die-hards don't care anymore..."

Lip

If the die-hards don't care, can they really be called die-hards?

kittle42
05-19-2013, 08:02 PM
Actually, you can win without offense. You can also win without pitching. You generally lose when you don't have either. The Sox lost today because Peavy didn't pitch very well, and the offense couldn't overcome that. The Sox needed more from Peavy today because he obviously wasn't going to come out early to put more strain on the bullpen. Starters who walk in two runs with their team already losing by two generally don't stay in for two more innings. I am guessing that Ventura wanted a well-rested bullpen for Axelrod's start against the Red Sox

If Peavy was on, two runs would have been enough to win, even with a run in the ninth. The Sox beat the Angels scoring only two runs through eight and another in the ninth in Sale's start and scored nine runs in losing Santiago's start.

You blame pitching for 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 losses, consistently. Please, spread blame around where blame is due.

kittle42
05-19-2013, 08:04 PM
If the die-hards don't care, can they really be called die-hards?

Sure. We died. Hard.

I'm In Europe for my honeymoon. It is sad to me that when I look at the scores in the morning, the results of the Sox game are secondary to my fantasy teams.

Thanks, Sox. Went to opening day. Hope to see you before April 2014, when you may finally ****ing rebuild.

kittle42
05-19-2013, 08:07 PM
Brooks and the front office should take a snap shot of the non existing buzz for this team.

5 posts after a loss.

The sox are no longer relevant.

I seriously cannot even name their "marketing" slogan for this season, even though I rattled off each one back to "The Kids Can Play" in my head.

I had more enjoyment in the 2007 season than this one. At least it was right after 2005-06.

RKMeibalane
05-19-2013, 08:20 PM
I seriously cannot even name their "marketing" slogan for this season, even though I rattled off each one back to "The Kids Can Play" in my head.

I had more enjoyment in the 2007 season than this one. At least it was right after 2005-06.

I can't either, but I know what it should be.

JB98
05-19-2013, 08:43 PM
Peavy had eight walks in 45.2 innings coming into today. In this game, he walked five in six innings. Just a rare bad day for Jake. For the most part, he beat himself.

The Sox weathered this stretch of 15 of 18 games on the road with a 9-9 record. Not too shabby. The injured guys who are going to come back will be back soon.

We'll see if they can get hot in June and at least make it a little interesting.

TaylorStSox
05-19-2013, 09:12 PM
Brooks and the front office should take a snap shot of the non existing buzz for this team.

5 posts after a loss.

The sox are no longer relevant.

That's a bit of a false equivalence. Message board traffic, in general, is way down among all sites. With the onset of new forms of social media, they're just antiquated. Also, the general attitude of posters here is completely different than it was years ago. The site is much more negative and generally, just not a whole lot of fun to read anymore.

TaylorStSox
05-19-2013, 09:13 PM
Peavy had eight walks in 45.2 innings coming into today. In this game, he walked five in six innings. Just a rare bad day for Jake. For the most part, he beat himself.

The Sox weathered this stretch of 15 of 18 games on the road with a 9-9 record. Not too shabby. The injured guys who are going to come back will be back soon.

We'll see if they can get hot in June and at least make it a little interesting.

Peavy didn't even look like he was having problems with command. He genuinely looked scared to challenge any hitters today. He rarely threw his fastball. He was nibbling all day. I'm not sure what was wrong with him, but I've never seen him pitch that way.

JB98
05-19-2013, 09:26 PM
Peavy didn't even look like he was having problems with command. He genuinely looked scared to challenge any hitters today. He rarely threw his fastball. He was nibbling all day. I'm not sure what was wrong with him, but I've never seen him pitch that way.

Ehh ... I don't buy it. I just think he had a bad game. None of his pitches were working. It happens.

DumpJerry
05-19-2013, 09:37 PM
Brooks and the front office should take a snap shot of the non existing buzz for this team.

5 posts after a loss.

The sox are no longer relevant.

Brooks has nothing to do with the product on the field.

It's pretty much been like that since last summer. Even with spending all those days in first place, this club and front office didn't exactly scream excitement before the offense died in September. I'm not sure if some of it is apathy from '11 that kind of carried over in conjunction with their play this year.

Love:

Again I quote Kittle from yesterday (which made me laugh when I read it but upon reflection is very sad) "White Sox Baseball 2013: Even the die-hards don't care anymore..."

Lip

If the die-hards don't care, can they really be called die-hards?
Maybe the paucity of posts is due to the fact that the weather today in Chicago is real nice, it is a Sunday and there really isn't anything to say that hasn't been said already.

A. Cavatica
05-19-2013, 09:38 PM
If the die-hards don't care, can they really be called die-hards?

I would care if we had a core of exciting young players. But besides Sale, there's nobody exciting.

RKMeibalane
05-19-2013, 10:03 PM
Maybe the paucity of posts is due to the fact that the weather today in Chicago is real nice, it is a Sunday and there really isn't anything to say that hasn't been said already.

My question was rhetorical and as such, didn't mandate a response. In any event, I wasn't speaking only of today's events. People seem to have given up on this altogether, which goes far deeper than the events of a single game.

Lip Man 1
05-19-2013, 10:29 PM
Gonzo had this is the post game story, didn't know this:

"This marked the Sox's American League-leading seventh loss in which the pitching staff allowed six hits or fewer."

Lip

Noneck
05-19-2013, 10:31 PM
Its really sos different day stuff. They have a month to turn it around. If they turn it around before they start playing detroit something might happen, if not its bad business for a very long time.

Winningugly23
05-19-2013, 10:40 PM
It's a marathon not a sprint guys...we are pretty much at the same point we were last year...Pitching can stay the same the offense will come around iam sure....let's not forget its been pretty dang cold for must of r home games...Nobody wants to hit when it's freezing...believe in the boys we will get it turned around..

Lip Man 1
05-19-2013, 10:46 PM
It's a marathon not a sprint guys...we are pretty much at the same point we were last year...Pitching can stay the same the offense will come around iam sure....let's not forget its been pretty dang cold for must of r home games...Nobody wants to hit when it's freezing...believe in the boys we will get it turned around..

Winning:

What you say is true of course but its also been cold say in Cleveland, in New York, in Boston. They haven't had a problem with hitting in cold weather have they? (as evidenced by their record...)

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that I think the "excuses" for this team over the past decade are getting thin.

Lip

Noneck
05-19-2013, 10:52 PM
It's a marathon not a sprint guys...we are pretty much at the same point we were last year...Pitching can stay the same the offense will come around iam sure....let's not forget its been pretty dang cold for must of r home games...Nobody wants to hit when it's freezing...believe in the boys we will get it turned around..

Since the Sox home games are not intra-squad games they are playing another team that are playing under the same conditions as the Sox.

Winningugly23
05-19-2013, 10:57 PM
Since the Sox home games are not intra-squad games they are playing another team that are playing under the same conditions as the Sox.
Don't get me wrong iam not saying that's the lone reason just a factor...The bats will warm up as the weather does iam sure of it. Let's not forget we have had what 6 guys on the DL as well.. All in all it could be much worse.

PushinWeight
05-19-2013, 11:08 PM
Winning:

What you say is true of course but its also been cold say in Cleveland, in New York, in Boston. They haven't had a problem with hitting in cold weather have they? (as evidenced by their record...)

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that I think the "excuses" for this team over the past decade are getting thin.

Lip


The past decade, eh? Wouldn't that include the year 2005?

Winningugly23
05-19-2013, 11:18 PM
The past decade, eh? Wouldn't that include the year 2005?
I may be wrong here but has this not be one of the coldest if not the coldest spring for Chicago?

TDog
05-20-2013, 01:03 AM
You blame pitching for 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 losses, consistently. Please, spread blame around where blame is due.

I don't think I have ever blamed the pitching for losing 1-0 any more than I blamed the Angels offense for being shut out twice in less than a week in the games started by Sale. But if the Sox are winning in the eighth or ninth, and they lose 2-1 or 3-2, the pitching is just as much to blame as if they lost 10-9 after leading in the eighth or ninth inning.

If you are blaming the offense for losing a game in which the starting pitcher walks in two runs after giving up two runs in the previous inning, you are missing the point. A strong, winning season is about pitching a defense. That's the way it was for the White Sox in the 1950s and most of the 1960s. Pitching and defense ultimately was why the 2005 White Sox finished with the league's best record and went 11-1 in the postseason. Fans, particularly in Chicago, prefer strong offense to teams built around pitching. By the end of 1967, Chicago had lost interest in the White Sox because they had no offense while the Cubs did. But if you add 25 points to their team batting average, 25 home runs and 100 runs, you get the 1970 Chicago White Sox. Only three teams had a higher team batting average, and two of those teams won their divisions.

Cleveland is in first place because they are getting great pitching while getting great hitting. Texas is in first place because they have been getting great pitching, although I see it didn't happen tonight. Take away the White Sox late inning bullpen meltdowns and defensive meltdowns and their defensive-meltdown-enhanced-bullpen meltdowns, and they are ahead of the Tigers, who are scoring more than any team in the league. But when is the last time you've seen a team lose with the No. 3 hitter hitting three homers and driving in five while the cleanup hitter was driving in three. The Rangers score some runs, too, but the White Sox won two out of three in Arlington at the beginning of this road-intensive stretch despite not matching up offensively.

It starts with pitching and defense. If you don't get that, you're going to need a lot of offense. And teams that need a whole lot of offense generally don't leave fans with much more than memories of how much fun it was in July.

kittle42
05-20-2013, 08:30 AM
Maybe the paucity of posts is due to the fact that the weather today in Chicago is real nice, it is a Sunday and there really isn't anything to say that hasn't been said already.

The low number of posts has been consistent all season, especially in post-game threads. Weather and weekends don't make much difference.

kittle42
05-20-2013, 08:32 AM
Don't get me wrong iam not saying that's the lone reason just a factor...The bats will warm up as the weather does iam sure of it. Let's not forget we have had what 6 guys on the DL as well.. All in all it could be much worse.

So will the bats of the opposition. The weather argument every season seems to ignore the opponents.

kittle42
05-20-2013, 08:33 AM
we are pretty much at the same point we were last year...

And we know how that ended.

delben91
05-20-2013, 08:34 AM
And we know how that ended.

Yeah, was an enjoyable few months over the summer though. Doesn't appear that will be the case this time around.

russ99
05-20-2013, 09:00 AM
I would care if we had a core of exciting young players. But besides Sale, there's nobody exciting.

Rios too, but he doesn't exactly have a history that screams fan-friendly.

We need either a few good young upbeat talented players, or a likeable star.

You could say that this year is payback from Kenny's win at all costs era of management, but also few of the younger players are going to bring excitement.

ChiSoxGal85
05-20-2013, 09:52 AM
Personally, I'm watching the games, but feel like I have nothing new to say - it's the same old stuff. It's sad but I think in-game and post-game posts will go up if the Sox get on a winning streak (much like attendance at games). What else is there to say except the same old gripes when the Sox are pretty much struggling to keep their heads above water?

Lip Man 1
05-20-2013, 10:36 AM
The past decade, eh? Wouldn't that include the year 2005?

Pushin:

It does...it also includes 2003, 2006, 2010 and 2012 the four seasons the Sox blew post season spots because they fell apart in either the second half overall or down the stretch.

My point was to Winning the excuses over the past decade, 'oh, it's cold...the team never saw this pitcher, the pitcher is left handed and throws junk etc are getting thin.'

Lip

Tragg
05-20-2013, 10:38 AM
That's an oversimplification. If your bullpen needs more rest to be more effective, going deep into your bullpen when your team is already trailing by four on the road might be counterproductive. When a team is losing, sometimes it's more important for a pitcher to give up innings than to burn more bullpen innings. Last season, as strong as the bullpen seemed to be, the Sox were close to the top in the majors in leads given up by relievers after the fifth inning. Part of that was the number of close games they played. Part of that was probably overwork of some of the relievers.

Major league baseball managers are more than head coaches, and baseball is unique among major sports in that pitching is such an important factor in whether you win or lose, and it is the most difficult part of the game to manage. Mangers have to manage their team through a season. They have to make decisions that affect their ability to compete in future games. It isn't a matter of managing every game to win. It's a matter of putting your team in a position to win as many games as you can.

That is why a manager betting on his team to win a game is a severe violation of the team's trust. If he is betting on a game, he could have financial incentive to make decisions he wouldn't otherwise make because they weaken his team. If he isn't betting on a specific game, he might not make moves that could give his team a better chance of winning in favor of having a better chance of winning.

Peavy giving up four runs lost the game. Taking Peavy out after the second bases-loaded walk, as he might have done in a must-win situation, wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game, but it would have burned more bullpen innings.
But it is that simple. When you're late in a game with a lead you make darn sure you win THAT game; particularly when it's a close game, you don't leave bullets in the chamber worrying about tomorrow.
Thornton was well-rested. He should have been brought in the game on Saturday in the 7th. He wasn't. Why? Likely to save him for a later inning. Or to rest the pen. We were in a perfect position to win that game, needed a key out, and Ventura is worried about an inning we may never get to (and didn't). Not only that, he brought in a guy fresh out of AAA in a high leverage situation.

He then compounded that serious error by keeping Veal in the game to give up several more runs.
And saving the pen gains you what exactly? One day, one game. Exactly what we gave away trying to rest the pen.

Foulke You
05-20-2013, 10:43 AM
Peavy had eight walks in 45.2 innings coming into today. In this game, he walked five in six innings. Just a rare bad day for Jake. For the most part, he beat himself.

The Sox weathered this stretch of 15 of 18 games on the road with a 9-9 record. Not too shabby. The injured guys who are going to come back will be back soon.

We'll see if they can get hot in June and at least make it a little interesting.
I feel the same way. This was a 4W-3L road trip that included a west coast swing. It felt a bit worse then that since they ended it with two losses. If Santiago holds that 4-0 lead on Saturday, I think the mood around here would be better. There were few positives on this trip. Overall, the offense looked better. We were at least putting runners on base and giving ourselves a chance to score. We had multiple double digit hit games too and a week ago, that seemed impossible. The walking dead of Dunn and Keppinger had a productive road trip although I'm a bit concerned about Adam's back spasms messing up his hot streak. Gordon Beckham is likely to return in a few days which will solidify the defense again and will almost certainly be an improvement over what we've gotten from Keppinger. We'll just have to see what happens here. The Sox have a track record of climbing into divisonal races in June.

Winningugly23
05-20-2013, 11:51 AM
My fellow Sox fans don't sound so defeated, let us get 100% healthy and then see what happens...Don't give up guys..:D:

JB98
05-20-2013, 11:54 AM
I feel the same way. This was a 4W-3L road trip that included a west coast swing. It felt a bit worse then that since they ended it with two losses. If Santiago holds that 4-0 lead on Saturday, I think the mood around here would be better. There were few positives on this trip. Overall, the offense looked better. We were at least putting runners on base and giving ourselves a chance to score. We had multiple double digit hit games too and a week ago, that seemed impossible. The walking dead of Dunn and Keppinger had a productive road trip although I'm a bit concerned about Adam's back spasms messing up his hot streak. Gordon Beckham is likely to return in a few days which will solidify the defense again and will almost certainly be an improvement over what we've gotten from Keppinger. We'll just have to see what happens here. The Sox have a track record of climbing into divisonal races in June.

My feeling is the mood is bad around here just because the losses have been so damn ugly. The two games Santiago started on this trip were absolutely brutal to watch. Horrendous defense and terrible pitching from both Hector and all those who relieved him in those two games. Then, of course, Peavy pretty much beat himself with walks yesterday.

I think the Sox can still make this interesting, but I understand why people feel otherwise. Despite the fact that they have a similar record to this same time last year, I think there is a general feeling the team looks worse this year. Losses last season seemed to mostly be the result of not hitting. This year, we've seen each component of the team break down at various times, and that makes it a little more difficult to have much optimism.

But, the warm-weather months are typically kinder to the Sox than April or May. USCF plays small in June and July, and this team is built for that. We'll see if that leads to a hot streak again this year.

kittle42
05-20-2013, 01:27 PM
But, the warm-weather months are typically kinder to the Sox than April or May. USCF plays small in June and July, and this team is built for that. We'll see if that leads to a hot streak again this year.

Tyler Flowers (and the rest of the team, for that matter) still has to make contact to actually hit.

hawkjt
05-20-2013, 01:36 PM
17 hits on Saturday is making contact,imo.

These are times that try all Sox fans loyalty and patience,but all you can do is hang in there.

As for the Sox not being of high interest, well....thats what you get for being in 5th place.

When they move up to 1st fan interest will pick up immediately.
It is only a matter of time.
Sox always streak at the end of May and in June.
Jake just did not have good command yesterday...not good for your #2 ace.

TDog
05-20-2013, 02:51 PM
But it is that simple. When you're late in a game with a lead you make darn sure you win THAT game; particularly when it's a close game, you don't leave bullets in the chamber worrying about tomorrow.
...

The White Sox didn't have the lead late in the game. They lost the lead midway through the game. That was a big difference. If they had the lead late, you wouldn't have seen Veal unless it was to get out a lefty. If Santiago had pitched into the sixth instead of the fourth, you probably wouldn't have seen Jones stay in to pitch multiple innings.

No major league managers manage in May without regard to how their moves will affect upcoming games, no successful ones anyway. Jerry Manuel was accused of burning out both his starting rotation and his bullpen at various times. So was Dusty Baker. Terry Bevington once called for a pitcher to come into a game before he even started to warm up, such was his no-tomorrow attitude. For that matter, some accused Robin Ventura of burning out his bullpen last year. Pitch counts are only relevant because teams are thinking of future games. The National last year had a team that had a chance to go to the World Series when they shut down their best pitcher because he reached what most people outside the organization considered an arbitrary innings limit.

kittle42
05-20-2013, 06:13 PM
When they move up to 1st fan interest will pick up immediately.

Is there a laughing smiley on this Smiles list? There should be.

I cite 2012 as evidence.

kittle42
05-20-2013, 06:14 PM
No major league managers manage in May without regard to how their moves will affect upcoming games, no successful ones anyway.

Luckily, we don't have one, which was the ownership's plan from the start, except that they didn't have it be parallel with a roster overhaul.

waldo_the_wolf
05-20-2013, 06:44 PM
Is there a laughing smiley on this Smiles list? There should be.


Yep, I use it a lot: :lol: