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soxrme
08-01-2002, 03:41 PM
MARK - THANK YOU FOR THE ARTICLE ON THE BEST LEFT HANDED PITCHER THE SOX EVER HAD. HE SHOULD BE IN THE HALL OF FAME. SOME OF THE BEST GAMES IN THE 50'S & 60'S WERE HIS. JUST FOR YOU YOUNG GUYS - THE ONE QUESTION THAT AL LOPEZ IS ALWAYS ASKED BY OLDER GUYS IS WHY BILLY DID NOT PITCH THE 6TH GAME OF THE SERIES. HE SAYS THAT BILLY WOULD HAVE PITCHED THE 7TH. BIGGEST MISTAKE LOPEZ MADE, EARLY WYNN COULD NOT COME BACK ON 2 DAYS REST.
THANK YOU FOR THE ARTICLE AGAIN.

idseer
08-01-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by soxrme
MARK - THANK YOU FOR THE ARTICLE ON THE BEST LEFT HANDED PITCHER THE SOX EVER HAD. HE SHOULD BE IN THE HALL OF FAME. SOME OF THE BEST GAMES IN THE 50'S & 60'S WERE HIS.

i agree completely! had billy and whitey been on opposite teams, billy would have been a superstar and first round selection to the hall. he was a better pitcher ... PERIOD!

Paulwny
08-01-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by idseer


i agree completely! had billy and whitey been on opposite teams, billy would have been a superstar and first round selection to the hall. he was a better pitcher ... PERIOD!

Man do I agree !!!
1955 era 1.97 won 15 lost 10
He might not have lost a game if he were a yankmee that year.

SI1020
08-02-2002, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by soxrme
MARK - THANK YOU FOR THE ARTICLE ON THE BEST LEFT HANDED PITCHER THE SOX EVER HAD. HE SHOULD BE IN THE HALL OF FAME. SOME OF THE BEST GAMES IN THE 50'S & 60'S WERE HIS. JUST FOR YOU YOUNG GUYS - THE ONE QUESTION THAT AL LOPEZ IS ALWAYS ASKED BY OLDER GUYS IS WHY BILLY DID NOT PITCH THE 6TH GAME OF THE SERIES. HE SAYS THAT BILLY WOULD HAVE PITCHED THE 7TH. BIGGEST MISTAKE LOPEZ MADE, EARLY WYNN COULD NOT COME BACK ON 2 DAYS REST.
THANK YOU FOR THE ARTICLE AGAIN. Nice to see the reception Billy received from you and others here. I became a Sox fan in 57 at the ripe old age of 6 after watching him pitch on our old black and white. He was is and probably always will be my all time favorite Sox player. I remember 59 like it was yesterday. Billy had a great first half but due to the hip injury mentioned in the article his second half performance slipped measurably. He seemed to be getting it back together in Aug but had a lousy September. Lopez shelved him in the WS. Bill Gleason who was a well known and influential sportswriter at the time (is he still living?) blasted Lopez and never forgave him. I always thought that Lopez was a great manager but he had a stubborn streak and a mean streak. I don't think that he and Pierce saw eye to but Billy is really one of the last of the true gentlemen in sports and he would not be the one to dish the dirt. Unfortunately I don't think he has a prayer of making it to the HOF. He ranks surprisingly high in the computer rankings of Bill James and other baseball gurus. You should review the box scores of some of the games he pitched for the Sox, particularly in the period from 1951-1955. He was almost always matched up against the other teams ace and his run support was usually anemic. Put him on the Yanks, Dodgers, or Braves of that era and there is no question he would be in the HOF. Nevertheless I am grateful that he pitched for us for so long. I remember what a sad, dejected kid I was when Ed Short traded him to the Giants after the 61 season. Luckily for Billy he had one big year left in him and he finally got a chance to shine in the postseason. Yes, if Cuccinello doesn't send Lollar home in game 2 and Pierce gets to start in games 3 and 6 then I think the chances are good that the Sox would have actually won a WS.

Ol Aches & Pains
08-02-2002, 09:05 PM
With a .327 lifetime ERA, 7 all-star appearances, including 3 starts, Billy Pierce is a Hall-Of Famer to anybody who knows baseball, and having met him once and talked to him briefly at an autograph appearance (for free!), I can assert that he's a true gentleman. He was a classy player, and we won't see his like again.

TornLabrum
08-02-2002, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
With a .327 lifetime ERA, 7 all-star appearances, including 3 starts, Billy Pierce is a Hall-Of Famer to anybody who knows baseball, and having met him once and talked to him briefly at an autograph appearance (for free!), I can assert that he's a true gentleman. He was a classy player, and we won't see his like again.

As a result of the time I've spent with the Windy City Sox Fans board of directors, I've had numerous occasions to talk to Billy Pierce, who was one of my idols when I grew up. I can verify that Billy is a true gentleman, class all the way. This makes me proud of the fact that when he sees me from a distance he will walk up to me and say hi. I'm still in awe of the man. :smile:

MarkEdward
08-03-2002, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
With a .327 lifetime ERA, 7 all-star appearances, including 3 starts, Billy Pierce is a Hall-Of Famer to anybody who knows baseball, and having met him once and talked to him briefly at an autograph appearance (for free!), I can assert that he's a true gentleman. He was a classy player, and we won't see his like again.


He was a great player, and if there was a Hall of the Very Good, he'd be in. I don't think he had enough "great" seasons, though. He was excellent in 1955, and very good in '52, '53' and '58. He also gave up a ton of hits, walks, and home runs. He was a great player for his time, but just not good enough to be enshrined in the Hall.

fogie
08-03-2002, 09:09 AM
I agree with most, Billy Perice was a great player, and a fine gentleman, I was sad, he was not at this years sox fest, but hope to see him at the next one. Sure would like to see him in the hall of fame.


Fogie

SI1020
08-03-2002, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
With a .327 lifetime ERA, 7 all-star appearances, including 3 starts, Billy Pierce is a Hall-Of Famer to anybody who knows baseball, and having met him once and talked to him briefly at an autograph appearance (for free!), I can assert that he's a true gentleman. He was a classy player, and we won't see his like again. I can just about guarantee you that outside of his immediate family he never had a bigger fan than me. I don't think he will ever be voted in the HOF. His winning percentage is comparable to Don Drysdales. His winning percentage and ERA is comparable to Jim Bunning. Both are in the HOF. His "Career Value" in those high tech computer rankings by Bill James and others gets him into the top 10 or 12 left handed pitchers of all time. However, because he was such a team guy, because his team usually forgot to score many runs for him from 1951-1955, and because he never had eye popping stats in any one year (except for the 1.97 ERA in 1955) he probably will never get in. When I finally got a chance to meet Billy Pierce in 1999 I found him to be everything and more that Torn Labrum and others here described. He's everything I for one am not, but I was glad I had the good sense to choose him to be my Sox hero when I was just a kid. Really Rich Lindberg said it better than I ever could in his 1978 book Stuck on the Sox. Billy will never get his just due, but as Sox fans we should know better than most that life is not fair.

Paulwny
08-03-2002, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by SI1020
I don't think he will ever be voted in the HOF. His winning percentage is comparable to Don Drysdales. His winning percentage and ERA is comparable to Jim Bunning. Both are in the HOF. His "Career Value" in those high tech computer rankings by Bill James and others gets him into the top 10 or 12 left handed pitchers of all time


Most local sports writers , esp. NY, will state the case for their teams ex-players when they are elligiblefor the hof. I may be wrong, but I don't believe Piece ever received any help from Chi. sports writers.

SI1020
08-03-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny



Most local sports writers , esp. NY, will state the case for their teams ex-players when they are elligiblefor the hof. I may be wrong, but I don't believe Piece ever received any help from Chi. sports writers. Jerome Holtzman I believe has supported him but I think he is the only one.

Ol Aches & Pains
08-04-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward



He was a great player, and if there was a Hall of the Very Good, he'd be in. I don't think he had enough "great" seasons, though. He was excellent in 1955, and very good in '52, '53' and '58. He also gave up a ton of hits, walks, and home runs. He was a great player for his time, but just not good enough to be enshrined in the Hall.

There is a Hall of the Very Good, Don Drysdale, Don Sutton, Rick Ferrell, and Ralph Kiner are in it, to name a few. Oh, wait, that's the Hall of Fame, isn't it? Sorry, never mind.

MarkEdward
08-04-2002, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains


There is a Hall of the Very Good, Don Drysdale, Don Sutton, Rick Ferrell, and Ralph Kiner are in it, to name a few. Oh, wait, that's the Hall of Fame, isn't it? Sorry, never mind.


I can see your point on Drysdale. Sutton had longevity, but only 2, maybe 3 great seasons. Ferrell had a pretty good OBP for a catcher, but not good enough for the Hall. Kiner had some very good years (1947, 1949, 1951), albeit a short career. My point is, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Player A got in the Hall with less than stellar credentials, doesn't mean all players with less than stellar credentials should get in.

TornLabrum
08-04-2002, 10:27 PM
Just a quick note regarding Billy Pierce. I'm informed that he'll be a guest at a Windy City Sox Fans luncheon on Friday August 23. If anyone wants details, email me. (I'm also told that due to the strike possibility, retired players are being invited. It's a good chance to get autographs, have a picture taken, and even ask a question or two.)

Ol Aches & Pains
08-05-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward



I can see your point on Drysdale. Sutton had longevity, but only 2, maybe 3 great seasons. Ferrell had a pretty good OBP for a catcher, but not good enough for the Hall. Kiner had some very good years (1947, 1949, 1951), albeit a short career. My point is, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Player A got in the Hall with less than stellar credentials, doesn't mean all players with less than stellar credentials should get in.

I don't say this to continue the argument, I just think it's interesting - 3 pitchers who played at roughly the same time, and have almost identical won-lost records: Don Drysdale, Billy Pierce, and Milt Pappas. Of the 3, Pappas has the best winning percentage, .560, to .557 for Drysdale, and .555 for Pierce. Does anybody in their right mind think Milt Pappas should be in the Hall of Fame?

By the way, did you know that Enos Slaughter used to say he could score from 3rd on a pop fly to Kiner 30 feet behind 3rd base? Kiner was the Jose Canseco of his time, minus the speed and the steroids. Maybe the Dave Kingman of his time would be more accurate.

TornLabrum
08-05-2002, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains


Kiner was the Jose Canseco of his time, minus the speed and the steroids. Maybe the Dave Kingman of his time would be more accurate.

Kiner's career OPS was .946. Kingman's was .783. I don't have Canseco's handy. Kingman was no Kiner.

Jerry_Manuel
08-05-2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Kiner's career OPS was .946. Kingman's was .783. I don't have Canseco's handy. Kingman was no Kiner.

.867 for Canseco.

Baseball-reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cansejo01.shtml)