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Lip Man 1
05-14-2013, 12:14 AM
Quote of the Day:

"Eventually you get to that point where you don't pay attention to what's going on, we'll find somebody else to do it." --Robin to Mark Gonzales.

While I appreciate Robin's thoughts (it's about damn time...) the reality is, if he decides to make 'changes' who in the hell is he going replace these guys with?

Replacing a stiff with another stiff doesn't change the equation does it?

We'll see what happens.

Lip

tstrike2000
05-14-2013, 07:49 AM
I hate to use this overused analogy, but wouldn't any changes be like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?

Dan H
05-14-2013, 07:57 AM
I am not impressed with this. Real changes should have come two years ago starting with an experienced manager.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 08:22 AM
I am not impressed with this. Real changes should have come two years ago starting with an experienced manager.
Had that happened two years ago, let me predict what your post would have been today- "They shouldn't have hired some retread manager. They should have hired someone with fresh ideas."

asindc
05-14-2013, 08:28 AM
Had that happened two years ago, let me predict what your post would have been today- "They shouldn't have hired some retread manager. They should have hired someone with fresh ideas."

Exactly.

delben91
05-14-2013, 08:28 AM
Had that happened two years ago, let me predict what your post would have been today- "They shouldn't have hired some retread manager. They should have hired someone with fresh ideas."

Psh, everyone knows hindsight provides the best predictive analysis!

Jerko
05-14-2013, 08:32 AM
I just don't want to see Dunn anymore, though he is good for potty breaks and beer breaks I guess.

SI1020
05-14-2013, 08:42 AM
A number fans on this and other sites were leery of hiring the inexperienced Ventura.

russ99
05-14-2013, 08:48 AM
I'm really irritated at Robin's comments about guys wanting to get out of slumps by "hitting and not walking".

Manto's over-aggressive swing-first philosophy just doesn't work and/or the opposing pitchers have figured out how to get ahead in counts swinging the AB in their favor.

We seem to have a group of ridiculously impatient hitters, but when the coaching staff preaches that as well, it doesn't help.

Maybe these guys should take a pitch every once in a while, they may get better pitches to hit.

dickallen15
05-14-2013, 08:53 AM
A number fans on this and other sites were leery of hiring the inexperienced Ventura.

The same fans who have less experience than Ventura, yet seem to know every perfect move.

SCCWS
05-14-2013, 08:54 AM
I don't think the manager makes a difference. The weak roster, offensively, limits most "fresh ideas" or stale ones any manager would have. Now if you want to play 6 infielders or let the pitchers bat, those may be still fresh ideas Robin can try. How about letting Reed pitch the first inning, then use a few set-up men in the 2nd and third then bring in the starter for 4-9? Another fresh idea that even this roster could accomodate

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 09:05 AM
A number fans on this and other sites were leery of hiring the inexperienced Ventura.
A number of fans on this site and others wanted the Sox to trade Paul Konerko and make Brian Daubach the starting first baseman. Your point?

DeadMoney
05-14-2013, 09:19 AM
A number fans on this and other sites were leery of hiring the inexperienced Ventura.

And...? Does anyone seriously think a different manager would've been able to correct this mess?

Most of the pitching aside, the MLB roster is atrocious (and don't even get me started on our prospects). Heck, even with the pitching, I tend to think that there's only a handful of guys on this roster that other teams would be interested in having at the price we're paying.

As for Robin making these comments, he probably deserves some criticism for this. What changes can he make? With the exception of sending Dunn off with a one-way ticket to anywhere-but-here, what can he do?

Oh, and as for the prospects I mentioned let's look at the offensive guys from our Top 10 - according to BP - and Jared Mitchell as a fun toss-in...
1.OF Courtney Hawkins (A+) .177/.247/.456 45 Ks
2.OF Trayce Thompson (AA) .227/.352/.386 35 Ks
3.IF Carlos Sanchez (AAA) .215/.297/.262 21 Ks
7.CF Keenyn Walker (AA) .195/.323/.256 45 Ks
10. 1B Keon Barnum (Rk) .279/.347/.512 13 Ks
OF Jared Mitchell (AAA/AA) .149/.318/.224 31 Ks

TomBradley72
05-14-2013, 09:23 AM
I don't blame Robin- this roster and our overall org talent level cannot withstand losing 2 starting pitchers (Danks & Floyd), a starting 2nd baseman (Beckam) and starting LF (Viciedo).

Especially the position players- the fact that those injuries lead us to retread/AAAA players like Wise, Greene and Wells is a complete indictment of the KW Era (especially 2007-2012)- zero help at AA/AAA- so Hahn has to go to the scrap heap for reinforcements.

Add the worst DH in major league history (Dunn) and an overrated catching prospect (Flowers)- more KW moves- and this is one warm pile of crap of a team- 99% of this is at KW's doorstep.

It will take years for Hahn to turn this around-

Irishsox1
05-14-2013, 09:26 AM
My problem with Robin is he has a boring dull personality. He was hired because he was the exact opposite of Ozzie and now the team has taken on Robin's personality which is boring and plodding.

That still doesn't address Konerko's age, Adam Dunn, Jeff Keppinger, a bunch of injuries and the total mess Kenny Williams created and will create by getting kicked up stairs, but you can't fire the players but you can fire the coach.

My_Sox_Summer
05-14-2013, 09:29 AM
I don't think the manager makes a difference. The weak roster, offensively, limits most "fresh ideas" or stale ones any manager would have. Now if you want to play 6 infielders or let the pitchers bat, those may be still fresh ideas Robin can try. How about letting Reed pitch the first inning, then use a few set-up men in the 2nd and third then bring in the starter for 4-9? Another fresh idea that even this roster could accomodate

I think a manager can make a team better, but won't make them worse. Ozzie's coaching changed 0% from '05 till he left. In professional sports (and in most cases in college) it's about talent. You either perform or you don't.

The Sox didn't make the moves in the off-season to make this team any better. In which case made it worse. For as beat up as our pitching staff is, they are still as solid as ever. Credit Coop for that.

It's a long season, they can turn it around. However we have a track record of dumping the players if we are sucking.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 09:31 AM
My problem with Robin is he has a boring dull personality. He was hired because he was the exact opposite of Ozzie and now the team has taken on Robin's personality which is boring and plodding.

That still doesn't address Konerko's age, Adam Dunn, Jeff Keppinger, a bunch of injuries and the total mess Kenny Williams created and will create by getting kicked up stairs, but you can't fire the players but you can fire the coach.
Now we're criticizing his personality as to why this team sucks?

This site is going to be a blast in July/August.

russ99
05-14-2013, 09:31 AM
A number of fans on this site and others wanted the Sox to trade Paul Konerko and make Brian Daubach the starting first baseman. Your point?

LOL. I prefer Willy Mo Pena myself...

Robin is in pretty tough, both him and Hahn inherited the remnants of Kenny's over-aggressive player acquisition style.

But he could change things up if they don't work. That's the sign of a good manager - adaptability.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 09:33 AM
But he could change things up if they don't work. That's the sign of a good manager - adaptability.
I agree, but you can't make chicken salad out of, well, you know.

And this roster is full of chicken stuff.

Carolina Kenny
05-14-2013, 09:49 AM
Yes we are a scrap heap, a dung heap and a Dunn heap.

Roster is ugly, first time in Sox history with two players first name of Tyler. I guess Tyler was trendy 20-30 years ago.

As some have stated just too many AAAA players. Add in an old Konerko (can he still turn on a fastball?) A horrible DH, and that is your 2013 Chicago White Sox.

Our only strength is pitching and this franchise recent history suggests there is a White Flag part two a coming.

TaylorStSox
05-14-2013, 09:51 AM
Yes we are a scrap heap, a dung heap and a Dunn heap.

Roster is ugly, first time in Sox history with two players first name of Tyler. I guess Tyler was trendy 20-30 years ago.

As some have stated just too many AAAA players. Add in an old Konerko (can he still turn on a fastball?) A horrible DH, and that is your 2013 Chicago White Sox.

Our only strength is pitching and this franchise recent history suggests there is a White Flag part two a coming.

Is it really a white flag when you're in last place? :rolleyes:

Hitmen77
05-14-2013, 09:57 AM
Quote of the Day:

"Eventually you get to that point where you don't pay attention to what's going on, we'll find somebody else to do it." --Robin to Mark Gonzales.

While I appreciate Robin's thoughts (it's about damn time...) the reality is, if he decides to make 'changes' who in the hell is he going replace these guys with?

Replacing a stiff with another stiff doesn't change the equation does it?

We'll see what happens.

Lip

I hate to use this overused analogy, but wouldn't any changes be like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?

Agreed. What "changes" can he make? Who in the minors is able to fill a roster spot on the major league team? This organization has just about zero talent ready for the majors or even close to ready for the majors.

The only change we'll see is when Beckham comes off the DL.

Tragg
05-14-2013, 10:08 AM
Ventura certainly isn't the major problem with this team. Talent is. But, the unfocused play does fall at his feet. Baseball strategy isn't difficult, so things like intentionally walking Chris Getz do make one wonder.

That said, if we do conduct a fire sale, it really would be nice if we had a long term plan before doing it. Hahn should have his scouts working on it now so that we know who we want and can reasonably get before hand.

DeadMoney
05-14-2013, 10:09 AM
Is it really a white flag when you're in last place? :rolleyes:

Very true.

Really though, what tradeable pieces do we have, what would the return be, and would that return be worth it?

I count six guys - Peavy, Rios (may need to eat some salary), Ramirez, Lindstrom, Crain, Thornton as guys who other teams might want (and maybe a 7th in Konerko). I suppose you could also consider Santiago/Quintana at some point too so the rotation isn't so lefty - assuming a healthy Danks - but I couldn't see that being an in-season type move. And I guess if the team is in full tear down and rebuild mode they can look at trading Reed, but at some point they need to look at guys they'd want to build around.

This is - unfortunately - the guys and the roster Robin is working with, but I'd love to see what changes he might have in mind.

kobo
05-14-2013, 10:26 AM
The state of this team is not Robin's fault, and it's not 100% on Hahn (I don't know how much he is responsible for though). Where this team is at is mostly due to the moves KW made over the last 4-5 seasons. Trading away prospects for aging overpaid veterans, no focus on the minor leagues or developing players and signing aging veterans is what has led us to this point. The only thing this team has going for it is the pitching, and I will give credit to KW for assembling the staff. But everything else is just horrible and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. We are heading into some dark times with this organization; I hope Hahn has a plan and the resources to turn things around.

Carolina Kenny
05-14-2013, 10:27 AM
Is it really a white flag when you're in last place? :rolleyes:


I think you can wave the White Flag whenever you want to. Of course not as hurtful as being in first place and waving it, however, it is still a gosh darn freaking White Flag.

Golden Sox
05-14-2013, 10:30 AM
Every now and then you have to get lucky in baseball. Everybody thought Vernon Wells was through . The Yankees took a chance on him and he has done well with the Yankees this year.(The Angels are paying most of the contract) Hopefully we can make a move or too and hopefully come out of it in a positive way. I dearly hope the first move is to bench Adam Done. Maybe he will take the hint and retire. By him hanging up his spikes we will be rid of him plus we will not be responsible for the rest of is salary. Maybe the White Sox can work out some deal with him to pay him a percentage of his contract and he can just leave. Either way I hope Done will no longer be on this team. I don't care who they replace him with, just let him go. He is the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime. And he is the worse clean up hitter in modern ( post World War 2) baseball history.

TaylorStSox
05-14-2013, 10:36 AM
The state of this team is not Robin's fault, and it's not 100% on Hahn (I don't know how much he is responsible for though). Where this team is at is mostly due to the moves KW made over the last 4-5 seasons. Trading away prospects for aging overpaid veterans, no focus on the minor leagues or developing players and signing aging veterans is what has led us to this point. The only thing this team has going for it is the pitching, and I will give credit to KW for assembling the staff. But everything else is just horrible and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. We are heading into some dark times with this organization; I hope Hahn has a plan and the resources to turn things around.

The staff is way too good and young to have me too concerned about our imminent demise. Hahn's going have to be creative and, like everyone else, get a little lucky, but it can be done.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 10:43 AM
He is the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime. And he is the worse clean up hitter in modern ( post World War 2) baseball history.
I agree he is the longest tenured guy who was this bad in my lifetime, but he's far from the worst.

slavko
05-14-2013, 10:58 AM
I think you can wave the White Flag whenever you want to. Of course not as hurtful as being in first place and waving it, however, it is still a gosh darn freaking White Flag.

In the interest of accuracy, THAT White Flag was pulled off when we were in second place. Being in second place meant that there was some talent on the team that could be traded. Now? A thin list of names emerged earlier in the thread.

The blame falls on Kenny and ultimately on JR for charting the course and allowing it to be charted.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 11:12 AM
In the interest of accuracy, THAT White Flag was pulled off when we were in second place. Being in second place meant that there was some talent on the team that could be traded. Now? A thin list of names emerged earlier in the thread.

The blame falls on Kenny and ultimately on JR for charting the course and allowing it to be charted.
I don't think that even the most dark clouded of fans would have seen this team failing this spectacularly when it's roots were assembled back in 09/10.

SI1020
05-14-2013, 11:45 AM
The same fans who have less experience than Ventura, yet seem to know every perfect move. Why bother at all then? Shut this and every other message board on every subject imaginable down and only let the "experts" have their say. As for Ventura, I was not against giving him the job of manager, but pointing out his lack of experience at the managerial level was a legitimate concern. Not a cause for tarring and feathering.

SI1020
05-14-2013, 11:57 AM
A number of fans on this site and others wanted the Sox to trade Paul Konerko and make Brian Daubach the starting first baseman. Your point? My point is that people should be able to voice an opinion on a message board of all places. I don't even have to approve of or agree with it.

And...? Does anyone seriously think a different manager would've been able to correct this mess?
I certainly don't. Baseball is very unpredictable but it looks like it will take a long time, the number of years I wouldn't even want to guess, to straighten out this mess. I just defended the right to have an opinion on Ventura's lack of managing experience. Apparently that was a very bad thing for me to say. If any of you knew me you'd know Robin Ventura is on a very short list of my all time favorite White Sox players. I wish the situation were different for him.

billyvsox
05-14-2013, 12:16 PM
And...? Does anyone seriously think a different manager would've been able to correct this mess?

Most of the pitching aside, the MLB roster is atrocious (and don't even get me started on our prospects). Heck, even with the pitching, I tend to think that there's only a handful of guys on this roster that other teams would be interested in having at the price we're paying.

As for Robin making these comments, he probably deserves some criticism for this. What changes can he make? With the exception of sending Dunn off with a one-way ticket to anywhere-but-here, what can he do?

Oh, and as for the prospects I mentioned let's look at the offensive guys from our Top 10 - according to BP - and Jared Mitchell as a fun toss-in...
1.OF Courtney Hawkins (A+) .177/.247/.456 45 Ks
2.OF Trayce Thompson (AA) .227/.352/.386 35 Ks
3.IF Carlos Sanchez (AAA) .215/.297/.262 21 Ks
7.CF Keenyn Walker (AA) .195/.323/.256 45 Ks
10. 1B Keon Barnum (Rk) .279/.347/.512 13 Ks
OF Jared Mitchell (AAA/AA) .149/.318/.224 31 Ks

Wow. These numbers are pathetic. Sounds like we have a system wide problem with offensive approach.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 12:27 PM
My point is that people should be able to voice an opinion on a message board of all places. I don't even have to approve of or agree with it.
No, your point was to support your opinion by saying other people had the same opinion. My point was to show that people have an opinion about a lot of stupid things. You can't point to groupthink when you believe it supports your point and then just say "It's my opnion!" when it doesn't.

aryzner
05-14-2013, 12:58 PM
Very true.

Really though, what tradeable pieces do we have, what would the return be, and would that return be worth it?

I count six guys - Peavy, Rios (may need to eat some salary), Ramirez, Lindstrom, Crain, Thornton as guys who other teams might want (and maybe a 7th in Konerko). I suppose you could also consider Santiago/Quintana at some point too so the rotation isn't so lefty - assuming a healthy Danks - but I couldn't see that being an in-season type move. And I guess if the team is in full tear down and rebuild mode they can look at trading Reed, but at some point they need to look at guys they'd want to build around.

This is - unfortunately - the guys and the roster Robin is working with, but I'd love to see what changes he might have in mind.

Don't forget Sale.

I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm not saying I would approve of the Sox dealing him. But he has quite a friendly contract and would be extremely valuable to any team.

SI1020
05-14-2013, 01:24 PM
No, your point was to support your opinion by saying other people had the same opinion. My point was to show that people have an opinion about a lot of stupid things. You can't point to groupthink when you believe it supports your point and then just say "It's my opnion!" when it doesn't. That was NOT and is NOT my opinion.

A number fans on this and other sites were leery of hiring the inexperienced Ventura. And they were. Them. Not necessarily me. Are you this ****ing miserable in person too?

kobo
05-14-2013, 01:27 PM
Every now and then you have to get lucky in baseball. Everybody thought Vernon Wells was through . The Yankees took a chance on him and he has done well with the Yankees this year.(The Angels are paying most of the contract) Hopefully we can make a move or too and hopefully come out of it in a positive way. I dearly hope the first move is to bench Adam Done. Maybe he will take the hint and retire. By him hanging up his spikes we will be rid of him plus we will not be responsible for the rest of is salary. Maybe the White Sox can work out some deal with him to pay him a percentage of his contract and he can just leave. Either way I hope Done will no longer be on this team. I don't care who they replace him with, just let him go. He is the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime. And he is the worse clean up hitter in modern ( post World War 2) baseball history.
First, am I the only one who thinks the Adam Done name is stupid and childish? Second, the Sox are stuck with him. He's not tradeable and he's not going to retire. I see no point in bringing up how ****ty he is and what the Sox should do with him over and over again when we all know that nothing is going to be done.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 01:35 PM
Are you this ****ing miserable in person too?
You betcha!

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 01:36 PM
First, am I the only one who thinks the Adam Done name is stupid and childish? Second, the Sox are stuck with him. He's not tradeable and he's not going to retire. I see no point in bringing up how ****ty he is and what the Sox should do with him over and over again when we all know that nothing is going to be done.
It was funny for a brief amount of time, but it's getting old. Sort of like Bacon.

#1swisher
05-14-2013, 01:36 PM
Robin Ventura
"Eventually you get to that point where you don't pay attention to what's going on, [and] we're going to find somebody else to do it," Ventura said. "We're going to start with the paying attention and the lapses first. There's part of performance that goes with it. We're going to do that, too, but the stuff that should be the simple stuff is going to be first."

Mr. Jinx
05-14-2013, 01:38 PM
First, am I the only one who thinks the Adam Done name is stupid and childish? Second, the Sox are stuck with him. He's not tradeable and he's not going to retire. I see no point in bringing up how ****ty he is and what the Sox should do with him over and over again when we all know that nothing is going to be done.

No, you are not the only one. I have always thought it was childish.

Milw
05-14-2013, 01:55 PM
I think a manager can make a team better, but won't make them worse. Ozzie's coaching changed 0% from '05 till he left.
Your first statement is reasonable. Your second statement is crazy.

Brewski
05-14-2013, 02:01 PM
Clubhouse meetings, veiled threats, open threats, followed by sulking, clamming up and resigning. I'm talking about Lou Pinella, but it could be a pattern.

Having bad players handed to you is the problem, but not totally.

JB98
05-14-2013, 02:02 PM
My problem with Robin is he has a boring dull personality. He was hired because he was the exact opposite of Ozzie and now the team has taken on Robin's personality which is boring and plodding.

That still doesn't address Konerko's age, Adam Dunn, Jeff Keppinger, a bunch of injuries and the total mess Kenny Williams created and will create by getting kicked up stairs, but you can't fire the players but you can fire the coach.

As Chicago fans, I don't know why we always revert to the "need more fire and passion" argument when things are going poorly. Maybe it's because this is a football town first. I'm not sure. But even if Robin were kicking over water coolers, throwing bats on the field and getting ejected every game, I don't think it would make any difference.

TheVulture
05-14-2013, 02:19 PM
Wow. These numbers are pathetic. Sounds like we have a system wide problem with offensive approach.

Danks and Phegley have been hitting well at AAA. Dan Black, Marcus Seiman and Andy Wilkins are all hitting well at AA. Heck, Danks has hit around .320 with .420 OBP at AAA since the beginning of last year. Thompson may only be hitting .220 something but he's walking at a rate good enough to still put up .354 OPB, a couple good weeks and his numbers could look pretty solid.

I don't see the point of keeping guys like Wise and Dunn around, might as well let someone like Danks play. Dan Black may not be much of a prospect, but he's putting up a .444 OBP after a strong year at high A last year. Why not see if someone like him can break through, it's not like mediocre prospects never became decent major leaguers before.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 02:36 PM
As Chicago fans, I don't know why we always revert to the "need more fire and passion" argument when things are going poorly. Maybe it's because this is a football town first. I'm not sure. But even if Robin were kicking over water coolers, throwing bats on the field and getting ejected every game, I don't think it would make any difference.
Some of the best football coaches in history looked like statues during games.

Not disagreeing with you in your overall thoughts, just saying that not all football coaches act like clowns.

billyvsox
05-14-2013, 02:44 PM
Danks and Phegley have been hitting well at AAA. Dan Black, Marcus Seiman and Andy Wilkins are all hitting well at AA. Heck, Danks has hit around .320 with .420 OBP at AAA since the beginning of last year. Thompson may only be hitting .220 something but he's walking at a rate good enough to still put up .354 OPB, a couple good weeks and his numbers could look pretty solid.

I don't see the point of keeping guys like Wise and Dunn around, might as well let someone like Danks play. Dan Black may not be much of a prospect, but he's putting up a .444 OBP after a strong year at high A last year. Why not see if someone like him can break through, it's not like mediocre prospects never became decent major leaguers before.

Good to hear we have at least a few guys doing well in the minors. I totally agree that Danks should be getting his chance to play now. It can't hurt anything. I don't understand why guys like Wise and Wells, even Tyler Greene need to part of this right now. Play some younger prospects, let the journeymen hook on somewhere else and begin the process of rebuilding.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 03:06 PM
Play some younger prospects....
.....so people can complain about them being rushed through the minors without proper preparation.

My_Sox_Summer
05-14-2013, 03:27 PM
Your first statement is reasonable. Your second statement is crazy.

How exactly did his coaching change from '05 till '10?

Cause I can show you exactly how players performed in '05 vs '07 or '10.

Ozzie wasn't that great of a manager (as he showed in Miami), we had a great team. He was distracting and became more and more annoying through the years. But had they been in 1st, it wouldn't have been as annoying.

Tragg
05-14-2013, 04:11 PM
Good to hear we have at least a few guys doing well in the minors. I totally agree that Danks should be getting his chance to play now. It can't hurt anything. I don't understand why guys like Wise and Wells, even Tyler Greene need to part of this right now. Play some younger prospects, let the journeymen hook on somewhere else and begin the process of rebuilding.

I agree, but remember in throwaway 2007, the Sox did the same thing. Bukvich and Myers pitched, while Gio toiled in the minors. Guillen had enough of Sweeney after 3 weeks, while awed by Jerry Owens. Assorted other AAAA stiffs played as the injuries mounted, and the young players didn't.
I don't understand Danks or the like not being up here, when he'd displace a clown, but the Sox lover their bad veterans.
That said, there's no need to rush anyone either.

Lip Man 1
05-14-2013, 04:13 PM
Gonzo just wrote the Sox went through a 50 minute workout on fundamentals five hours before first pitch tonight. Everyone participated including Beckham and Sanchez.

Lip

#1swisher
05-14-2013, 06:51 PM
Dan Hayes:
Ramirez took an hour nap after early defensive session in 90-degree.

“You get their attention and the things you consider unacceptable,” Ventura said. “There’s consequences to everything that goes on, but there is a responsibility to get it right, too. When it’s sloppy you need to figure out ways to let them realize it can’t go on. This is one way that it’s done.”


http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/dan-hayes/errors-mount-ventura-puts-sox-work-pregame-practice

LITTLE NELL
05-14-2013, 06:52 PM
Dan Hayes:
Ramirez took an hour nap after early defensive session in 90-degree.

“You get their attention and the things you consider unacceptable,” Ventura said. “There’s consequences to everything that goes on, but there is a responsibility to get it right, too. When it’s sloppy you need to figure out ways to let them realize it can’t go on. This is one way that it’s done.”


http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/dan-hayes/errors-mount-ventura-puts-sox-work-pregame-practice

What the hell were these guys doing for 6 weeks in spring training?

RKMeibalane
05-14-2013, 07:00 PM
A number of fans on this site and others wanted the Sox to trade Paul Konerko and make Brian Daubach the starting first baseman. Your point?

You're wrong. People wanted Frank Thomas to start at 1B, and for Konerko and Daubach to platoon as the DH depending on the pitcher.

RKMeibalane
05-14-2013, 07:03 PM
My problem with Robin is he has a boring dull personality. He was hired because he was the exact opposite of Ozzie and now the team has taken on Robin's personality which is boring and plodding.

Why does this suprise you? Ozzie Guillen was hired for the same reason: he was the polar opposite of Jerry Manuel, as Kenny Williams believed that his firey personality would improve the play of a club that struggled to reach five-hundred while Manuel slept through most of the season (and when he wasn't doing that, he ****ed with the lineup).

SoxSpeed22
05-14-2013, 07:46 PM
Why does this suprise you? Ozzie Guillen was hired for the same reason: he was the polar opposite of Jerry Manuel, as Kenny Williams believed that his firey personality would improve the play of a club that struggled to reach five-hundred while Manuel slept through most of the season (and when he wasn't doing that, he ****ed with the lineup).To piggy-back on your point, that's usually how it goes no matter what sport it is. When one guy gets fired, the guy who replaces him is usually the opposite in every way.
I just hope Robin can bust some balls when he has to, and right now, he has to.

billyvsox
05-14-2013, 10:54 PM
Its good to see Robin is at least is doing something. Likely wont hep but we shall see.

My hope is that when Beckham returns, Keppinger goes to the utility role and Gillaspie plays most of the time at third base.

De Aza
Beckham
Rios
Konerko
Viciedo
Dunn
Alexei
Gillaspie
Flowers

Might be an OK lineup for now

Lip Man 1
05-15-2013, 01:03 AM
Ventura told Gonzo after tonight's win that he's thinking about an 8:30AM practice session again for the team before Wednesday's afternoon game.

Good. Either they'll figure it out or Robin should just continue to crack the whip on these 'baseball stupid' players.

Lip

BainesHOF
05-15-2013, 02:42 AM
The team has not been mentally prepared this season. That falls on the manager.

Batting Dunn cleanup for so long made no sense.

Intentionally walking Getz and allowing Butler to come to the plate with the game on the line was amateurish.

asindc
05-15-2013, 08:20 AM
Ventura told Gonzo after tonight's win that he's thinking about an 8:30AM practice session again for the team before Wednesday's afternoon game.

Good. Either they'll figure it out or Robin should just continue to crack the whip on these 'baseball stupid' players.

Lip

Good. Let's hope he makes these sessions a regular part of their routine. Not necessarily before every game, but maybe once or twice a week until they look like they are getting it.

nsolo
05-15-2013, 09:06 AM
I am not impressed with this. Real changes should have come two years ago starting with an experienced manager.

Although others don't, I agree with this. Don't feel persecuted due to a personal opinion. I remember a few years ago seeing the phrase "in Kenny we trust" used on this board. That ideology is what we are paying for now.

Harry Chappas
05-16-2013, 10:15 AM
And...? Does anyone seriously think a different manager would've been able to correct this mess?

Most of the pitching aside, the MLB roster is atrocious (and don't even get me started on our prospects). Heck, even with the pitching, I tend to think that there's only a handful of guys on this roster that other teams would be interested in having at the price we're paying.

As for Robin making these comments, he probably deserves some criticism for this. What changes can he make? With the exception of sending Dunn off with a one-way ticket to anywhere-but-here, what can he do?

Oh, and as for the prospects I mentioned let's look at the offensive guys from our Top 10 - according to BP - and Jared Mitchell as a fun toss-in...
1.OF Courtney Hawkins (A+) .177/.247/.456 45 Ks
2.OF Trayce Thompson (AA) .227/.352/.386 35 Ks
3.IF Carlos Sanchez (AAA) .215/.297/.262 21 Ks
7.CF Keenyn Walker (AA) .195/.323/.256 45 Ks
10. 1B Keon Barnum (Rk) .279/.347/.512 13 Ks
OF Jared Mitchell (AAA/AA) .149/.318/.224 31 Ks

Well, aren't you a ray of sunshine! :tongue:

It's evident with Hawkins, Thompson, Walker, Barnum, and Mitchell that the Sox drafting philosophy shifted to high-ceiling, raw, prospects from sign-able, low ceiling pitchers. It's the Sox dumb luck that none of them have panned out (yet), but it's too early to tell with some of them. Barnum was doing pretty well until he was injured. I'm not sure what happened with Hawkins. It looks like he took a big step back from last year.

What I don't get is how the Sox end up with the same type of position player - whether drafting from the collegiate ranks, high school, or internationally. They seem to have an uncanny ability to find players that don't hit for average, have low OBP, and strike out too much. It's incredible to me that KW couldn't have 'lucked' into even a slightly above average hitter never mind a "star."

Is this a by-product of where we have been drafting for the last 5-6 years (towards the bottom third)? Have we been focused too much on pitching in the later rounds at the expense of position players? Or is our player development really that awful?

Since 2008, here are the Sox first few picks:

'08 - Beckham, Morel
'09 - Mitchell, Phegley, Trayce Thompson
'10 - Sale, Petricka, Reed
'11 - Walker, K. Johnson, Soptic
'12 - Hawkins, Barnum

BTW - we took Mitchell two picks ahead of Mike Trout.

I'm not blaming Ventura even though I hated the hire. I think he's done a decent job. I'm not even blaming the players. They're just not very good. 99% of this is on Kenny Williams, our minor league instructors, and our scouts.

I think Hahn has a tougher job than even Theo.

TDog
05-17-2013, 01:37 PM
...
Is this a by-product of where we have been drafting for the last 5-6 years (towards the bottom third)? Have we been focused too much on pitching in the later rounds at the expense of position players? Or is our player development really that awful?

Since 2008, here are the Sox first few picks:

'08 - Beckham, Morel
'09 - Mitchell, Phegley, Trayce Thompson
'10 - Sale, Petricka, Reed
'11 - Walker, K. Johnson, Soptic
'12 - Hawkins, Barnum

BTW - we took Mitchell two picks ahead of Mike Trout.

I'm not blaming Ventura even though I hated the hire. I think he's done a decent job. I'm not even blaming the players. They're just not very good. 99% of this is on Kenny Williams, our minor league instructors, and our scouts.

I think Hahn has a tougher job than even Theo.

Drafts seem so much easier in hindsight. Thirteen players picked ahead of Mike Trout haven't made it to the majors yet, and a few might not make it. At least a couple are no longer with the organization that drafted them. One was still pitching in Modesto (Class A) last year and couldn't get hitters out consistently. I don't recall fans complaining that the Sox didn't take Trout on draft day, but maybe that's an instance of bad memory.

The year the White Sox drafted Frank Thomas, the Cardinals and Phillies selected outfielders who never made it to the majors with picks before the White Sox. The Cubs that year picked after the Sox with the eighth pick, taking an outfielder who never made it to the majors. If the Cubs had finished behind the Cardinals in 1988 (the Cubs won 77, the Cardinals 76), Frank Thomas may have starred with the Cubs and . Or maybe not. Maybe the Cubs were so high on Earl Cunningham that they would have taken him if Frank Thomas was still available.

It isn't like the White Sox are the only team getting the draft wrong. Most teams are getting the draft wrong most of the time, with a few exceptions here and there.