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View Full Version : Indians do a selloff the RIGHT way


HawkDJ
08-01-2002, 01:02 PM
KW needs to go to Mark Shapiro and take some lessons. Shapiro and the Indians pulled off what we were trying to do, the right way and more. We didn't have a problem blowing away salary but what the Indians did was actually got PROSPECTS instead of some bum to pretend you made a trade rather than a sale. The Indians get at least 4 players who will make it to the big leagues, and most, i'm sure will be good big leaguers at that.

Brandon Phillips, Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Francisco Cruceta and Ricardo Rodriguez are all top prosepcts who are tearing up the minors and gotten for just two players, Bartolo Colon and Paul Shuey.

I know who gave up weren't as good as them but we could've at least goten some top caliber prosepcts.

voodoochile
08-01-2002, 01:37 PM
We could have? Why? Says who? I don't think we got a lot for these players, but can a single person tell me what they think Alomar and Lofton are truly worth? They are old and starting to show it. Howry? Realistically, he's a bust closer who ended up as a middle reliever after tearing up his arm and losing 5 MPH off his fastball. He's Billy Simas without the coaching ability. A solid guy but nothing special at all.

The one loss was Durham, but he wasn't going to be here next year, he was pricy and streaky AND it freed up room for Harris.

KW may not be the best GM in the world, but honestly, what did people expect to get for this group of guys, Mark Prior?

soxtalker
08-01-2002, 01:52 PM
I hate to be in the position of supporting KW, but I somewhat echo voodoochile's comments. The Tribe was in a better position to deal here. They had pitchers that contending teams wanted. Our pitchers were generally not pitching too well, and we want to keep the young ones. Howry was probably the best we could offer of someone who was expendable, starting to pitch well, and low-cost. The others we traded were position players and of limited market value. Do I wish that he had gotten better deals -- well, sure, but it just be too early to tell how well they will do.

TheBigHurt
08-01-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
We could have? Why? Says who? I don't think we got a lot for these players, but can a single person tell me what they think Alomar and Lofton are truly worth? They are old and starting to show it. Howry? Realistically, he's a bust closer who ended up as a middle reliever after tearing up his arm and losing 5 MPH off his fastball. He's Billy Simas without the coaching ability. A solid guy but nothing special at all.

The one loss was Durham, but he wasn't going to be here next year, he was pricy and streaky AND it freed up room for Harris.

KW may not be the best GM in the world, but honestly, what did people expect to get for this group of guys, Mark Prior?

i agree with pretty much everything you said but we could of got more for Durham

voodoochile
08-01-2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt


i agree with pretty much everything you said but we could of got more for Durham

That is of course, IYO. None of us know what the behind the scenes situation was and newspapers LOVE to make the worst of a situation because of course - "No news is good news" - especially in regards to KW and the Sox...

duke of dorwood
08-01-2002, 02:06 PM
Fact remains-other teams get more back in trade than we do.

Tragg
08-01-2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


The one loss was Durham, but he wasn't going to be here next year, he was pricy and streaky AND it freed up room for Harris.

KW may not be the best GM in the world, but honestly, what did people expect to get for this group of guys, Mark Prior?

Whether Durham was going to be here or not is not the point. he WAS here so you get all you can. No reason to GIVE him away and get a NOTHING. Those Indians weren't going to be Indians either. Getting a top and a second tier prospect for Paul Shuey? Hell, Williams couldn't even get rid of the real money drain on this team: Royce Clayton.
The difference is that the Indians PLANNED their rebuilding. We did ours spur of the moment, in desparation, half-assed.

voodoochile
08-01-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


Whether Durham was going to be here or not is not the point. he WAS here so you get all you can. No reason to GIVE him away and get a NOTHING. Those Indians weren't going to be Indians either. Getting a top and a second tier prospect for Paul Shuey? Hell, Williams couldn't even get rid of the real money drain on this team: Royce Clayton.
The difference is that the Indians PLANNED their rebuilding. We did ours spur of the moment, in desparation, half-assed.

Would you have been happier if the Sox started dumping salaries in June like the Tribe did? Last I checked, most of us wanted it to be closer to the trading deadline and that means lower market value.

Not saying it is a perfect outcome, but if JR whiteflags it in June, the press and a bunch of the posters on this site, let him have it with both barrels - damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I don't love the man, but this was a no-win situation...

Jerry_Manuel
08-01-2002, 04:10 PM
It was either Evans or Williams.

How did Dan Evans deadline deals look? Trading 3 pitchers for Shuey. That's ok right?

hold2dibber
08-01-2002, 04:26 PM
Here's my take:

KW did well on Lofton deal. It sounds like he got a real prospect from the Giants for Lofton, despite the fact that Lofton has not played well, other than one month, for the last season and a half. To get a real prospect for Lofton was a good deal.

KW did okay on the Alomar deal. Alomar was practically worthless at this point, no contenders needed a catcher, and he got a half way decent prospect (with a cool name!) for him. No qualms with that one.

KW got screwed in the Durham deal. Durham was smoking hot on fire with the bat, he's fast, and when he's on he can truly carry a team for a week or two. The guy we got appears to be a complete chump. The Brewers got much better prospects for Tyler friggin' Houston than we did for Durham!!! I know he's a rent-a-player and a defensive liability, but he's way the hell better than Alomar or Lofton and we got less for him. We wuz robbed.

I don't know what to make of the Howry deal. It appears that we got one good prospect and one decent prospect, which is probably all you'd expect for Howry. Shapiro got much more for Shuey, who I think is somewhat comparable to Howry, but just because the Tribe made a better deal doesn't mean KW made a bad one. My problem with this trade, though, is why? Howry is a solid contributor (according to the Trib, this year he has stranded about 75% of inherited runners, 10th best in the league; compared to Biddle, who has allowed more than 50% of inherited runners score). Plus, Howry's under contract next year and he doesn't make that much money. The reason I don't like this trade, more than anything, is because is scares me - further evidence that, despite their double talk, the Sox are in re-building mode. Again.

baggio202
08-01-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
It was either Evans or Williams.

How did Dan Evans deadline deals look? Trading 3 pitchers for Shuey. That's ok right?

id be ok with that deal because shuey is under contract through '04 at a reasonable price and is a damn fine set up man....if shuey was gonna walk after this season then no...i wouldnt have been a good deal..but under the circumstances he is exactly what LA needed...

Jerry_Manuel
08-01-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The Brewers got much better prospects for Tyler friggin' Houston than we did for Durham!!! I know he's a rent-a-player and a defensive liability, but he's way the hell better than Alomar or Lofton and we got less for him. We wuz robbed.

Shapiro got much more for Shuey, who I think is somewhat comparable to Howry, but just because the Tribe made a better deal doesn't mean KW made a bad one. My problem with this trade, though, is why? The reason I don't like this trade, more than anything, is because is scares me - further evidence that, despite their double talk, the Sox are in re-building mode. Again.

Funny how Dan Evans had a hand in both the Houston and the Shuey deals.

Sox are looking to cut payroll, and Howry wasn't needed in their eyes. It sorta is rebuilding and then again it isn't. They haven't torn down the pitching staff or done anything crazy. It sorta is in the sense that you'll have 2 or maybe 3 newer players starting next year.

Tragg
08-01-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Funny how Dan Evans had a hand in both the Houston and the Shuey deals.

Sox are looking to cut payroll, and Howry wasn't needed in their eyes. It sorta is rebuilding and then again it isn't. They haven't torn down the pitching staff or done anything crazy. It sorta is in the sense that you'll have 2 or maybe 3 newer players starting next year.

Yes, I'd rather Williams - big deal. Scheuler was a crap GM, and his progeny are mediocre. For some reason, Scheuler got the rep as a savvy general manager, although I don't know how (Gammons liked him is one reason).

Anyway the REAL mistake Kenny Williams made began last year; instead of using a stocked farm system to develop players to plug weaknesses after the 2000 season, he chose to do so with mediocre veterans. And this was AFTER 2000 when we already had veterans passed their prime on the team in Valentin, Frank, Eldred - he added to this mix alomar and clayton. After 2001, he made the same mistake again with Ritchie.
Well, I would hope Williams has learned his lesson - if yoiu go after a veteran it better be a real good one unless you get him real cheap.

soxtalker
08-01-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


Yes, I'd rather Williams - big deal. Scheuler was a crap GM, and his progeny are mediocre. For some reason, Scheuler got the rep as a savvy general manager, although I don't know how (Gammons liked him is one reason).

Anyway the REAL mistake Kenny Williams made began last year; instead of using a stocked farm system to develop players to plug weaknesses after the 2000 season, he chose to do so with mediocre veterans. And this was AFTER 2000 when we already had veterans passed their prime on the team in Valentin, Frank, Eldred - he added to this mix alomar and clayton. After 2001, he made the same mistake again with Ritchie.
Well, I would hope Williams has learned his lesson - if yoiu go after a veteran it better be a real good one unless you get him real cheap.

My impression of Scheuler was that he was a fairly savvy GM. He seemed to be very reluctant to pull off a trade, and they were usually of the niche/low-risk variety (e.g., acquisition of Eldred, which turned out well, but wouldn't have been a crisis if it flopped). However, posters have given several examples over the past few weeks of bad acquisitions that he made.

I wonder if this might be a characteristic of new GM's. They want to be aggressive and have quick success. Unfortunately, that's not terribly easy, as you have to predict how players are going to do in the future based on their past performance. That seems easier to do with a veteran, but you don't see if they are peaking. It probably seems harder to do with a minor leaguer, as you have little to go on.

Daver
08-01-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


My impression of Scheuler was that he was a fairly savvy GM. He seemed to be very reluctant to pull off a trade, and they were usually of the niche/low-risk variety (e.g., acquisition of Eldred, which turned out well, but wouldn't have been a crisis if it flopped). However, posters have given several examples over the past few weeks of bad acquisitions that he made.

I wonder if this might be a characteristic of new GM's. They want to be aggressive and have quick success. Unfortunately, that's not terribly easy, as you have to predict how players are going to do in the future based on their past performance. That seems easier to do with a veteran, but you don't see if they are peaking. It probably seems harder to do with a minor leaguer, as you have little to go on.

Schueler was a slug that did little if anything to improve the Sox as the GM here,but he did a good job of keeping the payroll where he was told to keep it.The most spectacular move made under his watch was the acquisition of Albert Belle,a deal that he had very little to do with other than filing the paperwork,JR himself made that deal.

hold2dibber
08-02-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Tragg


Yes, I'd rather Williams - big deal. Scheuler was a crap GM, and his progeny are mediocre. For some reason, Scheuler got the rep as a savvy general manager, although I don't know how (Gammons liked him is one reason).

Anyway the REAL mistake Kenny Williams made began last year; instead of using a stocked farm system to develop players to plug weaknesses after the 2000 season, he chose to do so with mediocre veterans. And this was AFTER 2000 when we already had veterans passed their prime on the team in Valentin, Frank, Eldred - he added to this mix alomar and clayton. After 2001, he made the same mistake again with Ritchie.
Well, I would hope Williams has learned his lesson - if yoiu go after a veteran it better be a real good one unless you get him real cheap.

Amen!! Clayton, Alomar and Ritchie were all relatively expensive, and players with similar talents could have been picked up for much less $. KW has a profound weakness for "proven veterans" who are not really very good. That's a recipe for disaster.

baggio202
08-02-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Amen!! Clayton, Alomar and Ritchie were all relatively expensive, and players with similar talents could have been picked up for much less $. KW has a profound weakness for "proven veterans" who are not really very good. That's a recipe for disaster.

KW also has a profound weakness for shoving his tongue up riensdorf's heiny..that's a recipe for disaster too

BuehrleACE56
08-02-2002, 11:08 AM
I thought KW did well in both the Lofton and Alomar deals. The A's general manager is a pretty good one from what i gather and he probably screwed over KW really easily. I liked the fact that there was a Durham trade, but i don't like how it panned out. We got screwed in that one. But at least wee Willie gets a shot. i like this kid all ready. The Howry deal makes sense because we apparently got a good prospect and a decent one. He was gonna be here next year, but why spend $2 mil on a mediocre middle reliever (the GASCAN people!) when you could give Ginter or Biddle more of a chance and some other kids too? That saves a lot of money. Plus he fits in with what the Red Sox needed so they probably were more aggressive to get him, thus the good prospects. I think we sort of panicked and gave away Durham just to make a move. The other thing i dont like is our paying all the salaries. sure we save a few million here and there but i cant believe the other teams wouldnt make a deal unless we did. what's the deal with that? daver do u know?

hold2dibber
08-02-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by baggio202


KW also has a profound weakness for shoving his tongue up riensdorf's heiny..that's a recipe for disaster too

Actually, it apears that shoving one's tongue up JR's heiny is a recipe for a big undeserved promotion, a corner office, and job security no matter how lousy of a job you do. Way to go, KW!

hold2dibber
08-02-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
I thought KW did well in both the Lofton and Alomar deals. The A's general manager is a pretty good one from what i gather and he probably screwed over KW really easily. I liked the fact that there was a Durham trade, but i don't like how it panned out. We got screwed in that one. But at least wee Willie gets a shot. i like this kid all ready. The Howry deal makes sense because we apparently got a good prospect and a decent one. He was gonna be here next year, but why spend $2 mil on a mediocre middle reliever (the GASCAN people!) when you could give Ginter or Biddle more of a chance and some other kids too? That saves a lot of money. Plus he fits in with what the Red Sox needed so they probably were more aggressive to get him, thus the good prospects. I think we sort of panicked and gave away Durham just to make a move. The other thing i dont like is our paying all the salaries. sure we save a few million here and there but i cant believe the other teams wouldnt make a deal unless we did. what's the deal with that? daver do u know?

Sending $ along with veteran players was par for the course throughout the league during the pre-deadline trading. With the labor uncertainty, teams didn't want to give up prospects for rent-a-player types unless the other team helped foot part of the bill. The Sox were no different than the other teams that dumped veterans - they all sent $ too.

DrWatson27
08-02-2002, 11:58 AM
Face it, untill the chairman opens the pocketbook (not likely), sells the team (another pipe dream), or dies (the most probable option) you could have god as the gm and the Sox still wouldn't win a world series. I'm just glad I'm young enough that barring any major event I should outlive the chairman. Hopefully his successor will be more focused on winning than pulling in fat cash.