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LITTLE NELL
05-13-2013, 04:06 PM
What's does everybody think about PK?
Is he just about done or as the ESPN guys said last night, it's just a matter of timing with his swing. No player goes downhill that fast so I agree with what was said last night. Paulie was banged up with 3 different injuries last year plus he had wrist surgery in the off-season. I think it's just a matter of time before we see the old Paulie. The days of 40 HRs and 100+ RBIs are most likely over but I think he will wind up with .280-25-80 by the end of the season.

FielderJones
05-13-2013, 04:38 PM
I reserve judgement until Paulie has had two-three weeks with game time temperatures above 70 before declaring his career finished. Coming off surgery as an older guy, it may take warmer weather to get his wrist warmed up.

Foulke You
05-13-2013, 05:02 PM
I also think that with the team's offensive struggles, he has been trying to pull the ball more likely in an attempt to hit HRs to get instant offense for the team. He has also expanded his strike zone earlier in counts swinging at first pitch breaking balls which is something he normally doesn't do. Again, this likely goes back to trying to do too much. As Fielder Jones pointed out, I'm sure the cold weather doesn't help either.

BainesHOF
05-13-2013, 05:05 PM
It's hard to say, but I'm starting to believe he might be done. Right now, Konerko can't catch up to fastballs right down the middle. He used to be one of the best fastball hitters in baseball. Last night you could see him get really mad after making an out on a fastball he used to be able to crush in his sleep.

For players not on steroids, they can hit the end of the line pretty quickly. Remember Dye's big second-half fade in his final year? Don't forget, while Konerko put up respectable numbers in 2012, many of them were registered in the first half or so of the season. He was pretty bad in the second half so now we're starting to approach a full year of struggles, though his wrist problems certainly could explain last year's fade.

SI1020
05-13-2013, 05:08 PM
That quick fluid compact swing of his seems missing. I thought he had one of the nicest swings for a right handed hitter that I'd ever seen. The bat is slow and uneven right now. I hope it is just because his timing is off due to the injuries and that he'll get it back. I can't take another Jermaine Dye/Adam Dunn type collapse.

Bobby Thigpen
05-13-2013, 06:08 PM
He's toward the end, but if he has one more hot streak left in him, he can still have a pretty darn good year or two. He gets as hot, if not hotter, than any Sox player I can remember recently.

It's not as if he's never went from flaming hot to ice cold or vice versa. This could just be one of his weird funks he goes through. He very well could go on a tear and be a MVP type guy by the All Star break. I think he has one more run of that left in him.

TaylorStSox
05-13-2013, 06:32 PM
I'm reserving judgement until after the break for the entire team. They're not all this bad. PK was never much of an athlete though. Those guys tend to lose it in a hurry.

amsteel
05-13-2013, 07:06 PM
His trade value is low.

Foulke You
05-14-2013, 11:10 AM
His trade value is low.
Assuming of course that Konerko would approve any trade. People talk of trading Konerko the same way they talk about trading Peavy, Thornton, or Rios. Unlike those guys, Paulie has veto rights and with his age, accomplishments, and tenure, he may not want to leave his family and go somewhere else.

blandman
05-14-2013, 11:15 AM
I thought he was done before the season. :shrug:

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 11:19 AM
I thought he was done before the season. :shrug:
Of course you did.

blandman
05-14-2013, 11:26 AM
Of course you did.

Of course most people did. He's regressed three straight years (four if you count this year).

MarksBrokenFoot
05-14-2013, 01:53 PM
No player goes downhill that fast so I agree with what was said last night.

I disagree. It's not scientific or anything, but when an older player catches absolute fire the way PK did to start last year, they seem to use up whatever juice they had left. Same way Dye went out. Hotter than ever to completely done seemingly overnight.

But either way, does it really matter? Paul was awesome and he helped bring us a World Series title. He's certainly too old to be part of the next WS title, so done or not, I hope he goes out satisfied with his accomplishments while still leaving the Sox in a position to move forward.

salty99
05-14-2013, 01:55 PM
He's probably done as a dominant hitter, but I still think he has some nice sustained hot stretches left in him. I also expect him to continue to get more days off.

TheVulture
05-14-2013, 03:29 PM
Of course most people did. He's regressed three straight years (four if you count this year).

I don't know how you can claim he has regressed four straight years when his seasons in 2010 and 2011 were amongst the best years of his career. He's regressed only since the second half of last season when he was dealing with the wrist issue. 2010-2012 he put a higher OPS each season than 2007-2009.

That said, he looks bad, really bad. Hopefully some hot weather will loosen him up and allow him to get back on top of the fastball.

Bobby Thigpen
05-14-2013, 03:33 PM
I don't know how you can claim he has regressed four straight years when his seasons in 2010 and 2011 were amongst the best years of his career. He's regressed only since the second half of last season when he was dealing with the wrist issue. 2010-2012 he put a higher OPS each season than 2007-2009.

That said, he looks bad, really bad. Hopefully some hot weather will loosen him up and allow him to get back on top of the fastball.
Look, don't ask blandman to back up his claims. He just knows they're right.

blandman
05-14-2013, 03:39 PM
I don't know how you can claim he has regressed four straight years when his seasons in 2010 and 2011 were amongst the best years of his career. He's regressed only since the second half of last season when he was dealing with the wrist issue. 2010-2012 he put a higher OPS each season than 2007-2009.

That said, he looks bad, really bad. Hopefully some hot weather will loosen him up and allow him to get back on top of the fastball.

His OPS over the last four years has been lower in each subsequent season. That is, by definition, regression.

Look, don't ask blandman to back up his claims. He just knows they're right.

:dtroll:

From the last time we had this argument and I provided evidence. http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3048192#post3048192

#1swisher
05-14-2013, 07:32 PM
Mark Gonzales
Konerko said RV gave him heads up last nite that he could sit tonight, said Torre did it to RV with Yankees. PK said physically he's fine.

Dan Hayes
Konerko took part in team's extra fielding practice at 2. Will hit in cage and take BP. Said extra work was good.

RKMeibalane
05-14-2013, 08:29 PM
I thought he was done before the season. :shrug:

Why am I not surprised?

Of course most people did. He's regressed three straight years (four if you count this year).

I don't know that that's the case.

RKMeibalane
05-14-2013, 08:31 PM
His OPS over the last four years has been lower in each subsequent season. That is, by definition, regression.

His decline in a single category is evidence of regression?

blandman
05-14-2013, 09:11 PM
His decline in a single category is evidence of regression?

OPS is an analysis figure, not a counting stat. Don't knock it like I based it on something silly like saying his homers went down. It's an analysis of power and ability to get on base, and it's the number one projection analytic when it comes to hitters. When you talk about hitters regressing, OPS is what you look at.

WhiteSox5187
05-14-2013, 10:48 PM
OPS is an analysis figure, not a counting stat. Don't knock it like I based it on something silly like saying his homers went down. It's an analysis of power and ability to get on base, and it's the number one projection analytic when it comes to hitters. When you talk about hitters regressing, OPS is what you look at.

Konerko's OPS did regress from the career high that he set in 2010, to call it a regression though is misusing the phrase "regression," because it ignores the fact that in 2011 his OPS was still higher than his OPS in 2009, 2008, and 2007; it was also the fourth highest OPS of his career and only three points behind his OPS in 2005. This claim of regression also discounts the fact that prior to having his wrist surgery in 2012 Konerko posted an OPS of .932 in the first half. The regression for Paul Konerko began when he had that wrist "procedure" in early June of last year. Prior to then he was putting up an OPS of .900 which would be .50 points higher than his career OPS. You are also neglecting to mention that Konerko's batting average in 2010, 2011 and 2012 were some of the highest averages he has posted.

doublem23
05-14-2013, 11:43 PM
Konerko's OPS did regress from the career high that he set in 2010, to call it a regression though is misusing the phrase "regression," because it ignores the fact that in 2011 his OPS was still higher than his OPS in 2009, 2008, and 2007; it was also the fourth highest OPS of his career and only three points behind his OPS in 2005. This claim of regression also discounts the fact that prior to having his wrist surgery in 2012 Konerko posted an OPS of .932 in the first half. The regression for Paul Konerko began when he had that wrist "procedure" in early June of last year. Prior to then he was putting up an OPS of .900 which would be .50 points higher than his career OPS. You are also neglecting to mention that Konerko's batting average in 2010, 2011 and 2012 were some of the highest averages he has posted.

Bingo. Even Paul's 2012 season outperformed his pre-MVP caliber career numbers.

MISoxfan
05-15-2013, 02:57 AM
His OPS over the last four years has been lower in each subsequent season. That is, by definition, regression.



:dtroll:

From the last time we had this argument and I provided evidence. http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3048192#post3048192


Over the last four years? So 2012, 2011, 2010, and 2009? I'm assuming you aren't possibly counting 6 weeks worth of play as a full seasons worth of data?

I don't think think anyone who isn't practicing an extreme misuse of the English language can say that Paul decreased his OPS over the past four years vs the previous season. He increased his OPS in 2009 and again in 2010. I have no idea how a decrease in 2011 and 2012 (and six weeks in 2013) can be count as four years of regression by any stretch of the imagination.

He has decreased his OPS over the past two seasons, and I think there is no question whatsoever that he is on his very last legs, but let's not forgot that this is a man who drove us crazy with his streaks for the first 13 years of his career. Let's not pretend that his last two years weren't among the better seasons of his very successful career. Let's not forget that this is a man who used to be known for not showing up until May.

blandman
05-15-2013, 08:01 AM
So...because four years ago, at his peak of his prime, Konerko posted his career high in OPS, we should ignore the fact that he's been falling off a cliff precipitously since? That's counter-intuitive.

It doesn't matter that he peaked four years ago. It matters that he's following a normal projection of regression for someone his age. Because that means, sadly, he likely doesn't have anything left.

delben91
05-15-2013, 09:50 AM
Maybe I can't count, but the OPS stats on Paul's MLB player page read as follows...

2008: .783
2009: .842
2010: .977
2011: .906
2012: .857
2013: .623

So if he peaked 4 years ago, that would be 2009? Seems to me 2010 was the peak but so be it.

Regardless, the guy is up there in years and the drop off was going to come at some point. Maybe this is it, maybe it's just a cold streak. I'm certainly not smart enough to say definitively either way.

blandman
05-15-2013, 10:28 AM
Maybe I can't count, but the OPS stats on Paul's MLB player page read as follows...

2008: .783
2009: .842
2010: .977
2011: .906
2012: .857
2013: .623

So if he peaked 4 years ago, that would be 2009? Seems to me 2010 was the peak but so be it.

Regardless, the guy is up there in years and the drop off was going to come at some point. Maybe this is it, maybe it's just a cold streak. I'm certainly not smart enough to say definitively either way.

I'm counting this year as the fourth year, maybe I should clarify.

It's irrelevant anyhow. It's fairly obvious Konerko is regressing, no matter what metric you use.

Golden Sox
05-15-2013, 11:11 AM
Unless I'm misreading this situation, the White Sox are telling Konerko his days are numbered here. They must have a very low opinion of his baseball skills. I realize he hasn't been hitting so far this year but still to be sitting on the bench 2 games in a row and seeing Adam Done starting in place of Paulie has to be demeaning to Konerko. After all he's sitting on the bench and Done is playing and hitting all of .137. If they're going to continue benching him they might as well release him. This looks like its going to be a bad ending to Konerkos career on the Southside of Chicago. I don't know how Ventura can possibly bench Konerko and keep Done in the lineup. I've said it before on one of my earlier posts, Adam Done is the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime. His 3 years with the White Sox he has a BA of .178 which is the worse for any cleanup hitter in modern day (post World War 2) baseball history. And yet Konerko is being benched and a bum like Adam Done is still playing.

SephClone89
05-15-2013, 11:13 AM
Unless I'm misreading this situation, the White Sox are telling Konerko his days are numbered here. They must have a very low opinion of his baseball skills. I realize he hasn't been hitting so far this year but still to be sitting on the bench 2 games in a row and seeing Adam Done starting in place of Paulie has to be demeaning to Konerko. After all he's sitting on the bench and Done is playing and hitting all of .137. If they're going to continue benching him they might as well release him. This looks like its going to be a bad ending to Konerkos career on the Southside of Chicago. I don't know how Ventura can possibly bench Konerko and keep Done in the lineup. I've said it before on one of my earlier posts, Adam Done is the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime. His 3 years with the White Sox he has a BA of .178 which is the worse for any cleanup hitter in modern day (post World War 2) baseball history. And yet Konerko is being benched and a bum like Adam Done is still playing.


Ohh...now I get it...because you don't like Adam Dunn...

Golden Sox
05-15-2013, 11:32 AM
I actually like Adam Dunn. I met him once and he really seems like a nice guy. He's friendly and personable. Virtually every one of his teammates will never say a bad thing about him. He is definitely a people person. The problem is he is absolutely terrible as a major league baseball player. He has no business being on a major league roster and he has less business starting over Paul Konerko. Once Dunn is done with the White Sox, I actually wish him the best of luck. I just hope he's gone sooner rather than later. Liking someone has really nothing to do with anything when it comes to playing baseball in the majors. Two of the best hitters the White Sox have had in my lifetime were Dick Allen and Albert Belle. I met both of them and believe me they were both difficult to like. I would rather have those two on the White Sox rather than a nice guy like Dunn who is hitting .137. Performance is what counts in the major leagues. If you doubt what I say, it was announced today that the Phillies signed Carlos Zambrano to a contract. You will probably meet a small group of Zambranos teammates who actually liked him. I was told that when he was with the Cubs, most oh his teammates totally stayed away him from on their road trips. They thought he was nuts. Still the Cubs kept him around for years because he performed quite well for the Cubs. If he pitches well for the Phillies they will keep him for as long as he gets people out. Dunn hasn't played well for 3 years now for the White Sox. Now that he is hitting a robust .137 his days playing for the White Sox should be over.

doublem23
05-15-2013, 11:41 AM
Unless I'm misreading this situation, the White Sox are telling Konerko his days are numbered here. They must have a very low opinion of his baseball skills. I realize he hasn't been hitting so far this year but still to be sitting on the bench 2 games in a row and seeing Adam Done starting in place of Paulie has to be demeaning to Konerko. After all he's sitting on the bench and Done is playing and hitting all of .137. If they're going to continue benching him they might as well release him. This looks like its going to be a bad ending to Konerkos career on the Southside of Chicago. I don't know how Ventura can possibly bench Konerko and keep Done in the lineup. I've said it before on one of my earlier posts, Adam Done is the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime. His 3 years with the White Sox he has a BA of .178 which is the worse for any cleanup hitter in modern day (post World War 2) baseball history. And yet Konerko is being benched and a bum like Adam Done is still playing.

I'm not sure if Paul has been straight up "benched" as much as Ventura is trying to ensure he's able to stay healthy the full 162 games. It's why he's not playing 1B on turf as much, too.

Also, Dunn's career line against Corriea is now .333/.429/.833 while Paul has never faced him. Seems like if you have two struggling, relatively interchangeable players, you may as well put them in the positions to best succeed.

FWIW, Dunn has faced Pelfrey 33 times and has a career .231/.364/.423 line. Konerko has never seen him. The only other guy on the team that has is Keppinger, who is 3-6 lifetime off Pelfrey with 3 singles. I would expect we'll see Paul today in some capacity.

35th and Shields
05-15-2013, 12:13 PM
Unless I'm misreading this situation, the White Sox are telling Konerko his days are numbered here. They must have a very low opinion of his baseball skills. I realize he hasn't been hitting so far this year but still to be sitting on the bench 2 games in a row and seeing Adam Done starting in place of Paulie has to be demeaning to Konerko. After all he's sitting on the bench and Done is playing and hitting all of .137. If they're going to continue benching him they might as well release him. This looks like its going to be a bad ending to Konerkos career on the Southside of Chicago. I don't know how Ventura can possibly bench Konerko and keep Done in the lineup. I've said it before on one of my earlier posts, Adam Done is the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime. His 3 years with the White Sox he has a BA of .178 which is the worse for any cleanup hitter in modern day (post World War 2) baseball history. And yet Konerko is being benched and a bum like Adam Done is still playing.

You're reading far too much into the situation. Ventura told Konerko he could have last nights game off because it's what Joe Torre did with Robin when he was with the Yankees to keep him fresh. Konerko is not being benched in favor of Dunn. He's 37 and Robin is just trying to get him some rest.