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View Full Version : *Official* 5-12 Sale 1-Hit CG Bedevils Angels; SOX 3 LAA 0 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
05-12-2013, 10:39 PM
Great game!

Boondock Saint
05-12-2013, 10:41 PM
Brilliant game by a brilliant pitcher.

ChicagoG19
05-12-2013, 10:42 PM
Is weird that I am happy that Sale didn't throw the no-hitter? As silly as it seems, Sox pitchers seem to fall off after they throw a no-hitter. Happy for the win though.

vinny
05-12-2013, 10:43 PM
An almost perfect Mother's Day gift. Sale with a 92 game score, just lights-out. And we managed to win without a home run.

Let's go beat up on the Twinkies.

JB98
05-12-2013, 10:43 PM
Sale was awesome tonight. He was in total command. Dominant with all three pitches. That's an ace right there.

I like the adjustment of moving Ramirez up to the 2 hole the last few games. I know that's now how they drew it up, but I think that's what is necessary right now.

I'm concerned about Konerko. That bat is slow right now. I haven't seen Paulie look this bad at the plate at any point in the last five years. With all the focus on Dunn's woes, Paulie's struggles have gone almost unnoticed. We need him to get going.

Frater Perdurabo
05-12-2013, 10:44 PM
Not much to say that hasn't been said ad nauseum.

We have championship-caliber pitching and AAA-caliber position players.

happydude
05-12-2013, 10:44 PM
Beautiful to watch; he made it look so easy...

24thStFan
05-12-2013, 10:48 PM
We have championship-caliber pitching and AAA-caliber position players.

Sad, but true.

Soxman219
05-12-2013, 10:51 PM
Sale and the rest of the pitching staff - the only reason the Sox aren't the worst team in baseball right now.

Frater Perdurabo
05-12-2013, 10:53 PM
Sad, but true.

If you put salary and longevity aside and judge only on the numbers, I think among our position players, only Rios, Alexei and Gillaspie could start for any other teams. Beckham is a premium fielder; I hope he continues to hit when he returns.

Railsplitter
05-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Just Sale-ing along.
:bandance:

all*star quentin
05-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Sale was dominant. :tiphat:

Noneck
05-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Sale looked very good. I can see the Sox 4 and 5 hitters soon to be both below the mendoza line. The only reason Paul is not there yet is because of his smarts. I think the clock is running out on Paul.

asindc
05-12-2013, 11:05 PM
Sale=:bandance::bandance:

Overall, a much more professional effort today than the last few games. I really like Tank's approach at the plate lately. He seems to be cutting back on his 'Hulk smash' swings and is taking a more patient and celebral approach. If he keeps this up, pitchers will actually have to start throwing strikes to get him out consistently. Imagine that. I really hope to see Dunn sit regularly against lefties. We would be much better off.

Lip Man 1
05-12-2013, 11:09 PM
Kid is some kind of pitcher, plus he had to overcome almost zero offense again and another guy thrown out at the plate. Saw where Dunn was benched tonight.

Hope he can stay healthy and productive and the Sox figure out a way to build a great team around him.

Lip

Marqhead
05-12-2013, 11:09 PM
Glad I went out to the ballpark tonight. Best game of the year!

Lip Man 1
05-12-2013, 11:17 PM
Only the 5th complete game one hitter by a Sox pitcher in the last 23 years. First since the "immortal" Zach Stewart did it against the Twins in September 2011.

Lip

CoopaLoop
05-12-2013, 11:21 PM
Saw this fun fact on twitter. Chris Sale had 8 ER April 13 in Cleveland and now 10 ER in his other 7 starts this season combined

tstrike2000
05-12-2013, 11:23 PM
Sale pitching like we know he can. Thankfully we had him tonight, or else it could've been another broken record.

FielderJones
05-12-2013, 11:43 PM
FJ Jr and I watched Sale warming up in the bullpen, and he looked sharp. Really popping the ball in there. Then my sister-in-law said "no-hitter" before the first pitch was thrown. It almost came true.

Best Sox game I've been to in quite some time.

delben91
05-13-2013, 12:05 AM
Kid is some kind of pitcher, plus he had to overcome almost zero offense again and another guy thrown out at the plate. Saw where Dunn was benched tonight.

Hope he can stay healthy and productive and the Sox figure out a way to build a great team around him.

Lip

Wow, Sale must be good if even Lip can't find something to dislike about him. :cool:

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2013, 12:28 AM
You have one of the best 1-2 rotation punches in baseball with Sale and Peavy. What at shame this might be another season where gold pitching goes to waste.

shingo10
05-13-2013, 01:05 AM
You have one of the best 1-2 rotation punches in baseball with Sale and Peavy. What at shame this might be another season where gold pitching goes to waste.


If Danks comes back and pitches to his potential then 1-3 could be really solid. Will the offense come around though? Gotta hope so.

Tragg
05-13-2013, 01:17 AM
You have one of the best 1-2 rotation punches in baseball with Sale and Peavy. What at shame this might be another season where gold pitching goes to waste.

That's because we are deplorable at pretty much every other aspect - from pitching to baserunning to defense. A shame, indeed. The pitching has been superb.

CoopaLoop
05-13-2013, 01:27 AM
If Danks comes back and pitches to his potential then 1-3 could be really solid. Will the offense come around though? Gotta hope so.

Hope is all ya got.

ChiSoxGal85
05-13-2013, 01:30 AM
A real gem by Sale, and Alexei had a pretty good game too (I'll overlook the error in the 9th).

I too am concerned about Konerko; he looks pretty bad at the plate right now.

Tank walked twice today - that's 4 walks since he got back. Amazing.

StillMissOzzie
05-13-2013, 02:07 AM
Kid is some kind of pitcher, plus he had to overcome almost zero offense again and another guy thrown out at the plate. Saw where Dunn was benched tonight.

Hope he can stay healthy and productive and the Sox figure out a way to build a great team around him.

Lip

I assume that it was because CJ Wilson is a tough lefty, and not because Venture suddenly had a wave of inspiration to bench him against righties, too.

Yes, sheer domination by Sale, with a masterpiece. But, was I the only one who had a shudder of fear that he'd lose a heartbreaker 1-0 as soon as the perfecto was broken up?
Nice to see some 2-out RBIs for a change, even though the Sox had already stranded scads on the bases to that point, along with the usual pathetic hitting with RISP through the first six innings.

SMO
:gulp:

vinny
05-13-2013, 07:59 AM
I assume that it was because CJ Wilson is a tough lefty, and not because Venture suddenly had a wave of inspiration to bench him against righties, too.

Yes, sheer domination by Sale, with a masterpiece. But, was I the only one who had a shudder of fear that he'd lose a heartbreaker 1-0 as soon as the perfecto was broken up?
Nice to see some 2-out RBIs for a change, even though the Sox had already stranded scads on the bases to that point, along with the usual pathetic hitting with RISP through the first six innings.

SMO
:gulp:

I was having visions of Harvey Haddix even before Trout's hit.

Heff
05-13-2013, 08:42 AM
Wow, Sale must be good if even Lip can't find something to dislike about him. :cool:

F_f8l2RRKko

harwar
05-13-2013, 09:05 AM
Chris had command of all 4 pitches last night .. it was a beautiful thing to see .. i felt proud to a White Sox fan..

doublem23
05-13-2013, 09:06 AM
If you put salary and longevity aside and judge only on the numbers, I think among our position players, only Rios, Alexei and Gillaspie could start for any other teams. Beckham is a premium fielder; I hope he continues to hit when he returns.

Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.

doublem23
05-13-2013, 09:36 AM
More impressive... Sale's pitching performance or Dayan drawing TWO walks in one game?

asindc
05-13-2013, 09:41 AM
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.

Of course he would, and it is obvious when you look at the other 2nd baseman starting on MLB teams. Only a woe-is-us outlook or abject pessimism would prevent a Sox fan from seeing the obvious.

MeteorsSox4367
05-13-2013, 10:09 AM
Did anyone read Toni Ginnetti's game story in the Sun-Times? You would never have known that Sale pitched as well as he did.

I know it was a night game and maybe the Times has earlier Sunday night deadlines, but Toni's piece focused on Konerko and really didn't mention much about Sale.

What time was her deadline? 8 PM? Not very good.

SephClone89
05-13-2013, 10:17 AM
Trib seemed to have an early deadline, too. Is deadline typically earlier on Sundays? The game started the same time a weeknight game would've, and those always make the paper.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2013, 10:26 AM
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.

Of course he would, and it is obvious when you look at the other 2nd baseman starting on MLB teams. Only a woe-is-us outlook or abject pessimism would prevent a Sox fan from seeing the obvious.

I wasn't ripping on Beckham; his injury keeps him from starting for anyone right now.

Pauline's longevity would earn him a starting spot on many teams, but his current performance doesn't warrant it.

SephClone89
05-13-2013, 10:29 AM
Pauline's longevity would earn him a starting spot on many teams, but his current performance doesn't warrant it.

...

Golden Sox
05-13-2013, 10:48 AM
If John Danks comes back and pitches well this White Sox pitching staff can really become dominant. Dominant enough to get us into the playoffs. The problem still seems to be with the hitting. Hahn has to get us a couple more hitters. I don't know how he's going to do it. But unless we get a couple more hitters we'll be watching the 2013 playoffs on TV.

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 11:30 AM
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.

Of course he would, and it is obvious when you look at the other 2nd baseman starting on MLB teams. Only a woe-is-us outlook or abject pessimism would prevent a Sox fan from seeing the obvious.

I have a hard time seeing Beckham as anything but below average, even in this era of reduced offense as compared to years past.

Last season Beckham ranked just off the bottom of MLB 2B in most measures.

For those with 300+ PA, he ranked 26th of 39 in OPS. Tied for 30th of 39 in WAR (at .3, with Stephen Lambardozzi of the Nats and Brandon Inge).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/year/2012/position/2b/sort/OPS/order/true

I hope this is the last season that Gordon Beckham is a full-time starter with the Sox.

asindc
05-13-2013, 11:42 AM
I have a hard time seeing Beckham as anything but below average, even in this era of reduced offense as compared to years past.

Last season Beckham ranked just off the bottom of MLB 2B in most measures.

For those with 300+ PA, he ranked 26th of 39 in OPS. Tied for 30th of 39 in WAR (at .3, with Stephen Lambardozzi of the Nats and Brandon Inge).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/year/2012/position/2b/sort/OPS/order/true

I hope this is the last season that Gordon Beckham is a full-time starter with the Sox.

Those stats don't mention defense at all, which is part of my equation, especially for a middle infielder.

TaylorStSox
05-13-2013, 11:49 AM
Those stats don't mention defense at all, which is part of my equation, especially for a middle infielder.

I think he was addressing double's post about Beckham being "mostly average" offensively, which just isn't the case. The only thing Beckham leads the league in is apologists. I can live with Beckham, but he hits like ****.

doublem23
05-13-2013, 11:49 AM
I have a hard time seeing Beckham as anything but below average, even in this era of reduced offense as compared to years past.

Last season Beckham ranked just off the bottom of MLB 2B in most measures.

For those with 300+ PA, he ranked 26th of 39 in OPS. Tied for 30th of 39 in WAR (at .3, with Stephen Lambardozzi of the Nats and Brandon Inge).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/year/2012/position/2b/sort/OPS/order/true

I hope this is the last season that Gordon Beckham is a full-time starter with the Sox.

Beckham's 2012 slash line: .234/.312/.381
2012 AL Average 2B slash line: .250/.311/.374

Maybe he does come in a little under the average among full-time players since I suspect a lot of 2B end up getting platooned to hide their relative offensive weaknesses, but essentially you will get the average 2B over the course of 162 games out of Gordon Beckham. 2B is just not a premier offensive position. I, too, hope the Sox are soon able to move on from Beckham, but I think the laundry list of problems with this team precludes that. No sense in making another hole... for now.

TaylorStSox
05-13-2013, 11:53 AM
Beckham's 2012 slash line: .234/.312/.381
2012 AL Average 2B slash line: .250/.311/.374

For a stats guy, that seems like a flawed way to view the numbers. Those numbers include back ups and AAAA players. Comparing his numbers with other starters is more relevant.

cards press box
05-13-2013, 11:56 AM
That's an ace right there.

Absolutely right!

Kid is some kind of pitcher, plus he had to overcome almost zero offense again . . . Hope he can stay healthy and productive and the Sox figure out a way to build a great team around him.

Lip

That would be outstanding.

If you put salary and longevity aside and judge only on the numbers, I think among our position players, only Rios, Alexei and Gillaspie could start for any other teams. Beckham is a premium fielder; I hope he continues to hit when he returns.

No, I think Beckham would. And Viciedo, too. And probably Konerko. I say probably because his prolonged slump may be just that -- a slump -- or it may indicate some decline. We just don't know yet.

The Sox need an upgrade in CF, C and DH, for sure. Maybe 1B, too. The Sox have some salary coming off the books after 2013 and maybe can address these problems. It would be really nice if Dunn could get hot for a while and the Sox could deal him. Don't know how likely that is.

Anyway, for a gem of a ballgame last night,

:winner

doublem23
05-13-2013, 11:59 AM
For a stats guy, that seems like a flawed way to view the numbers. Those numbers include back ups and AAAA players. Comparing his numbers with other starters is more relevant.

Um, no? "Average AL" means average across the AL, it doesn't mean "cherry picking players to make the stats fit the anser you have already supposed."

Beckham will give you average production from the 2B position offensively. You're free to take that for what it's worth. :shrug:

If you want to argue he's below median, I can live with that but then it gets a little tricky as to how you're going to define offensive production amongst players.

Lip Man 1
05-13-2013, 12:00 PM
I assume that it was because CJ Wilson is a tough lefty, and not because Venture suddenly had a wave of inspiration to bench him against righties, too.

Yes, sheer domination by Sale, with a masterpiece. But, was I the only one who had a shudder of fear that he'd lose a heartbreaker 1-0 as soon as the perfecto was broken up?
Nice to see some 2-out RBIs for a change, even though the Sox had already stranded scads on the bases to that point, along with the usual pathetic hitting with RISP through the first six innings.

SMO
:gulp:

Ozzie:

I know what you mean...kid goes into the 7th inning pitching a perfect game and doesn't even have a one run cushion.

Reminds me of the story where Drysdale was sent ahead on a road trip because he had to pitch the next day and met the Dodgers at the hotel when they got in. He asked how the team did and was told "Koufax pitched a shutout..."

Drysdale replied, "did we win?"

:D:

Lip

TaylorStSox
05-13-2013, 12:32 PM
Um, no? "Average AL" means average across the AL, it doesn't mean "cherry picking players to make the stats fit the anser you have already supposed."

Beckham will give you average production from the 2B position offensively. You're free to take that for what it's worth. :shrug:

If you want to argue he's below median, I can live with that but then it gets a little tricky as to how you're going to define offensive production amongst players.

It's cherry picking to compare him to other starters? Good Lord.

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 12:34 PM
Um, no? "Average AL" means average across the AL, it doesn't mean "cherry picking players to make the stats fit the anser you have already supposed."

Beckham will give you average production from the 2B position offensively. You're free to take that for what it's worth. :shrug:

If you want to argue he's below median, I can live with that but then it gets a little tricky as to how you're going to define offensive production amongst players.

He ranked last year in the bottom third of starting 2B. You said you don't want to make another hole. My point is just that Beckham is already one of the many holes in the Sox lineup.

Of course, that doesn't mean finding the right replacement is easy. One of the many 2B who was better at the plate last year was Jeff Keppinger.

thomas35forever
05-13-2013, 01:00 PM
Is C.J. Wilson gonna tell his dealership employees about this impressive performance he couldn't match?

doublem23
05-13-2013, 01:02 PM
It's cherry picking to compare him to other starters? Good Lord.

:scratch:

Do you not understand what the term "average" means?

doublem23
05-13-2013, 01:18 PM
He ranked last year in the bottom third of starting 2B. You said you don't want to make another hole. My point is just that Beckham is already one of the many holes in the Sox lineup.

Of course, that doesn't mean finding the right replacement is easy. One of the many 2B who was better at the plate last year was Jeff Keppinger.

But I'm telling you he's really not, if you're only comparing him to specific individuals in the league you miss out on some very relevant information, specifically that there's a slew of teams in the league that don't even have a player as good as Beckham who can take 500 PA at 2B and deliver the kind of results he did at the plate. Again, I'm not saying he's anything special, just saying he gives you an average AL 2B production. I know that's not what we expected of him when he was drafted and was an up and coming phenom, but it is what it is.

Paulwny
05-13-2013, 01:26 PM
I was having visions of Harvey Haddix even before Trout's hit.


I was having the very same thoughts.
I was also wondering how long Ventura would leave him in the game if a no hitter went into extra innings.

JB98
05-13-2013, 01:45 PM
I was having the very same thoughts.
I was also wondering how long Ventura would leave him in the game if a no hitter went into extra innings.

Yeah, I was wondering that too around the sixth inning. What would have happened if Sale had retired 27 straight batters, but the game wasn't over yet because the Sox didn't score? Do you send a guy out for the 10th on a cold night in May?

I'll bet Ventura is glad he didn't have to make that decision.

TaylorStSox
05-13-2013, 01:47 PM
:scratch:

Do you not understand what the term "average" means?

He's not average. He ranked in the bottom third among his peers. You want to compare to replacement level players or starters?

doublem23
05-13-2013, 01:51 PM
He's not average. He ranked in the bottom third among his peers. You want to compare to replacement level players or starters?

I want to compare to all players who played 2B in the AL last year. That is how the "average" of something works.

Again, if you only take the players that accrued 550 or whatever PA at the position last year, you leave out a lot of information, specifically that there were several teams that didn't have a 2B as good as Beckham to eat that much playing time at the position. That's just as valuable as comparing Beckham's line to guys like Pedroia or Cano. It's why OPS+, ERA+, or WAR all take into account ALL players who played in a given season, not just the ones that reached the magic 3.1 PA/G or IP/tmG marks, because yes, there it is more worthwhile to judge a player against the entire sum of his peers, not just the top.

TDog
05-13-2013, 02:07 PM
Those stats don't mention defense at all, which is part of my equation, especially for a middle infielder.

I think the stats don't mention a lot of things Beckham does to help the White Sox win. The White Sox are a better team with Gordon Beckham at second base. I think losing Beckham is a major reason the Sox have a losing record, at least as big as losing Viciedo and bigger than losing Floyd. That really isn't saying much because the Sox are only winning three winnable losses away from having a winning record. They are only winning five winnable losses away from being in first place. Poor play, usually out of the bullpen and/or on defense in the late innings has led to more than five winnable losses and even the first place team has winnable losses that they would love to do over and take out of the loss column. Still, as poorly as the White Sox have been at scoring runs this year, they aren't so far away from contending in the AL Central.

I think Beckham makes the defense much better. On most teams, the shortstop is the de facto captain of the defense, but Ramirez doesn't seem to be a leader on the field, playing better when Beckham is out there. On some, the catcher if the leader of the defense. From what I've seen, a major factor in the White Sox defensive problems this year compared with last year is losing both Beckham and Pierzynski on defense.

That seems true on offense as well. It is also true that Flowers hasn't replaced Pierzynski's offense, although Pierzynski is now sidelined with the Rangers. But Keppinger hasn't provided the offense that you would expect out of Beckham, and certainly wasn't providing the offense Beckham did on the first homestand before he was injured in the first game of the first roadtrip. Gillaspie, non the other hand, has pretty much provided the offense from third base that the Sox probably expected out of Keppinger.

As for last night's game, I didn't have a chance to watch it, but going over the play-by-play, it looks like Sale pitched an incredible game, comparable to Kerry Wood's 20 strikeout game if you consider that he didn't hit anyone and didn't have to work nearly as heard to get the same result. Sort of makes me optimistic that Sale could be remembered for a great career instead of a great game, the way Kerry Wood and Phil Humber are. Third one-hit shutout pitched in the majors in a week, although technically the one pitched against the White Sox wasn't a complete-game shutout because Harvey didn't get a decision, not pitching the complete game.

ChiSoxGal85
05-13-2013, 02:09 PM
Yeah, I was wondering that too around the sixth inning. What would have happened if Sale had retired 27 straight batters, but the game wasn't over yet because the Sox didn't score? Do you send a guy out for the 10th on a cold night in May?

I'll bet Ventura is glad he didn't have to make that decision.

Sale finished with 98 pitches; I could have seen him going out for one more inning if it was around that. If I'm Robin, and Sale is perfect through 9 and the Sox haven't scored, I send Sale out for the 10th. And simultaneously I grumble at the offense for not getting the job done.

Huisj
05-13-2013, 02:13 PM
I want to compare to all players who played 2B in the AL last year. That is how the "average" of something works.

Again, if you only take the players that accrued 550 or whatever PA at the position last year, you leave out a lot of information, specifically that there were several teams that didn't have a 2B as good as Beckham to eat that much playing time at the position. That's just as valuable as comparing Beckham's line to guys like Pedroia or Cano. It's why OPS+, ERA+, or WAR all take into account ALL players who played in a given season, not just the ones that reached the magic 3.1 PA/G or IP/tmG marks, because yes, there it is more worthwhile to judge a player against the entire sum of his peers, not just the top.

I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at how a guy compares to other starters around the league. When you compare pitchers, you compare starters to starters, closers to closers, and middle guys to middle guys. You don't say a starter is below average because there were 50 middle relievers who had a lower ERA and higher K/9 rate.

So if you picked, say, five teams in a division, and you wanted to know how each team's main second baseman compared to those on the other teams, you'd just look at the five starters. If instead you want to look at total production that each team got out of the second base position, you could include the utility guys who played some games at 2B.

But why get mad at a guy for comparing a player to other players who are in the same position (in this case, starting second basemen)?

Basically, there's a difference between comparing a player to another player and comparing a team's positional production to another teams positional production. They are both useful in their own way.

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 02:28 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at how a guy compares to other starters around the league. When you compare pitchers, you compare starters to starters, closers to closers, and middle guys to middle guys. You don't say a starter is below average because there were 50 middle relievers who had a lower ERA and higher K/9 rate.

So if you picked, say, five teams in a division, and you wanted to know how each team's main second baseman compared to those on the other teams, you'd just look at the five starters. If instead you want to look at total production that each team got out of the second base position, you could include the utility guys who played some games at 2B.

But why get mad at a guy for comparing a player to other players who are in the same position (in this case, starting second basemen)?

Basically, there's a difference between comparing a player to another player and comparing a team's positional production to another teams positional production. They are both useful in their own way.

I used 300 PA and I think that's reasonable, as it takes into account what Doub is so worried about. Last season there were about 40 guys in MLB at 2B with that many PA. Beckham was better than about a third of them.

I think the Sox can do better than having an all-field, no-hit guy at 2B.

doublem23
05-13-2013, 02:43 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at how a guy compares to other starters around the league. When you compare pitchers, you compare starters to starters, closers to closers, and middle guys to middle guys. You don't say a starter is below average because there were 50 middle relievers who had a lower ERA and higher K/9 rate.

Right, you're right, that's what I'm doing. Just like you would compare SP to SP, I'm comparing Beckham (a 2B) to other 2B. I'm not saying he's average across the league, I'm saying he's average for his position.

So if you picked, say, five teams in a division, and you wanted to know how each team's main second baseman compared to those on the other teams, you'd just look at the five starters. If instead you want to look at total production that each team got out of the second base position, you could include the utility guys who played some games at 2B.

OK, but if say, 1/3 of the league doesn't have a regular everyday 2B then who are you comparing to? Somebody has to fill those at bats.

But why get mad at a guy for comparing a player to other players who are in the same position (in this case, starting second basemen)?

I'm not mad at him for comparing Beckham to whomever he wants, I just hate having to explain the same ****ing thing three times in a row.

If you want to limit yourself to just the 9 2B who last season qualified by hitting the 3.1 PA/G mark and therefore are "everyday" players, then you'd only be looking at approximately 5,362 plate appearances. 2B accrued 9,458 plate appearances in 2012, so you're essentially ignoring 45% of the league which explains how a guy like Beckham, who can be at the lower run of the "everyday starter" list can still essentially put up a league average 2B line; because even though he's not going to be an All Star, approximately 1/2 the time, an AL team is going to plug in some journeyman, AAAA player into the 2B role and yes, that is statistically significant, so having a guy who will give you his production for 582 plate appearance is still (wait for it)... league average for his position.

Basically, there's a difference between comparing a player to another player and comparing a team's positional production to another teams positional production. They are both useful in their own way.

Yes, that's all true, but I will disagree with the notion that comparing a guy to his position's total production is still worthwhile because, as I've demonstrated, not every team is going to have an MLB-quality, everyday starting player at all 9 positions. Comparison's on a league-wide basis are still valid and valuable.

doublem23
05-13-2013, 02:54 PM
I used 300 PA and I think that's reasonable, as it takes into account what Doub is so worried about. Last season there were about 40 guys in MLB at 2B with that many PA. Beckham was better than about a third of them.

I think the Sox can do better than having an all-field, no-hit guy at 2B.

300 PA is nothing, though, that's not even 1/2 a season for an everyday player, even if you're getting high quality production from a guy for 300 PA you still have to find someone to eat the other 300 PA, and that's probably going to be a journeyman, AAAA type utility infielder. And I'm guessing that when added up, the 300 PA of above average starter level play and 300 PA of AAAA player production will essentially just shoot out what Gordon Beckham does. AKA... League average.

Huisj
05-13-2013, 02:58 PM
Is there an easy site that can sort the stats of utility guys and part-time players to get what their stats or worth were at a certain position? For example, if you look up 2B stats from last year on ESPN, you get that Keppinger was the 7th best by WAR in the AL. He had 385 at-bats, but only played 27 games at 2B. Does he rate ahead of Beckham for last year if you just look at what he did at 2B, or are you going on his whole 385 at-bat season?

TomBradley72
05-13-2013, 03:01 PM
I used 300 PA and I think that's reasonable, as it takes into account what Doub is so worried about. Last season there were about 40 guys in MLB at 2B with that many PA. Beckham was better than about a third of them.

I think the Sox can do better than having an all-field, no-hit guy at 2B.

I'm much more concerned with CF (De Aza is a 4th/5th OF- not a starter), 3B (Gillaspie is a nice prospect, but unproven, and his AAA stats are not "great"), 1B (Konerko looks like age is finally catching up with him), DH (Dunn is epically horrible) and catcher (leading the league in past balls while hitting < .200).

So Beckham is 6th on my priority list for what needs to be fixed-

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 03:02 PM
300 PA is nothing, though, that's not even 1/2 a season for an everyday player, even if you're getting high quality production from a guy for 300 PA you still have to find someone to eat the other 300 PA, and that's probably going to be a journeyman, AAAA type utility infielder. And I'm guessing that when added up, the 300 PA of above average starter level play and 300 PA of AAAA player production will essentially just shoot out what Gordon Beckham does. AKA... League average.

So you first complain about using only qualified starters at the position, as IIRC there were only 21 of those in MLB last year.

Then you complain about there being too many using a lower PA threshold.

Is there some magic number in-between?

I look around MLB and I would take more than half of starting 2B over Gordon Beckham. As shown, I think he's in the bottom third of starting 2B in MLB.

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 03:06 PM
I'm much more concerned with CF (De Aza is a 4th/5th OF- not a starter), 3B (Gillaspie is a nice prospect, but unproven, and his AAA stats are not "great"), 1B (Konerko looks like age is finally catching up with him), DH (Dunn is epically horrible) and catcher (leading the league in past balls while hitting < .200).

So Beckham is 6th on my priority list for what needs to be fixed-

I think De Aza is better than Beckham. I think C, DH and SS are just as bad right now. Konerko will have to be replaced in the long-term, as well. Unfortunately Beckham has quite a bit of competition on the Sox in terms of being a liability at the plate.

doublem23
05-13-2013, 03:09 PM
So you first complain about using only qualified starters at the position, as IIRC there were only 21 of those in MLB last year.

Then you complain about there being too many using a lower PA threshold.

Is there some magic number in-between?

I look around MLB and I would take more than half of starting 2B over Gordon Beckham. As shown, I think he's in the bottom third of starting 2B in MLB.

I'm not complaining about anything, my position has been pretty firm, when you start throwing in arbitrary lines as to who qualifies as a "real" 2B and who doesn't, you start arbitrarily eliminating data so you're only hope is to compare players against the entire league. So even if there are 21 qualified 2B in the league and Beckham is in the bottom 2/3rd of that group, that still means 9 teams didn't even have a player good enough to qualify for the position, so we're still talking about a guy who gives the Sox better production that what? 12-15 teams in baseball? Sounds like an average player for his position to me. :shrug:

LITTLE NELL
05-13-2013, 03:14 PM
Ozzie:

I know what you mean...kid goes into the 7th inning pitching a perfect game and doesn't even have a one run cushion.

Reminds me of the story where Drysdale was sent ahead on a road trip because he had to pitch the next day and met the Dodgers at the hotel when they got in. He asked how the team did and was told "Koufax pitched a shutout..."

Drysdale replied, "did we win?"

:D:

Lip

That was also a regular occurrence with 1967 White Sox with Horlen, Peters and Tommy John.

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 03:25 PM
I'm not complaining about anything, my position has been pretty firm, when you start throwing in arbitrary lines as to who qualifies as a "real" 2B and who doesn't, you start arbitrarily eliminating data so you're only hope is to compare players against the entire league. So even if there are 21 qualified 2B in the league and Beckham is in the bottom 2/3rd of that group, that still means 9 teams didn't even have a player good enough to qualify for the position, so we're still talking about a guy who gives the Sox better production that what? 12-15 teams in baseball? Sounds like an average player for his position to me. :shrug:

Fair enough. At 2B I'd rather have:

Cano, Pedroia, Hill, Utley, Walker, Scutaro, Phillips, Kinsler, Altuve, Murphy, Kendrick, Espinosa, Kipnis, Carpenter, and Zobrist (getting about a 1/3 of his PT this year at 2B).

That's 15 guys of 30 teams, and average would be half.

That says nothing of prospects I would rather have over Beckham, like Wong or Gyorko.

TDog
05-13-2013, 03:30 PM
Fair enough. At 2B I'd rather have:

Cano, Pedroia, Hill, Utley, Walker, Scutaro, Phillips, Kinsler, Altuve, Murphy, Kendrick, Espinosa, Kipnis, Carpenter, and Zobrist (getting about a 1/3 of his PT this year at 2B).

That's 15 guys of 30 teams, and average would be half.

That says nothing of prospects I would rather have over Beckham, like Wong or Gyorko.

Coming into the season, you might have rather had Keppinger.

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 04:15 PM
Coming into the season, you might have rather had Keppinger.

True, as I alluded to earlier. I don't think Beckham is our answer at 2B, but I also don't know how to answer that particular question.

TaylorStSox
05-13-2013, 04:29 PM
True, as I alluded to earlier. I don't think Beckham is our answer at 2B, but I also don't know how to answer that particular question.

Beckham is a stopgap. You can live with him because he's a pretty good defender and has some pop. You certainly don't want to pay him though. At least 2nd base is the one place we may have some legit prospects.

Tragg
05-13-2013, 04:36 PM
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.
Agree

Tragg
05-13-2013, 04:39 PM
More impressive... Sale's pitching performance or Dayan drawing TWO walks in one game?

Should have been 3. He Kd on one ball 4.
He's going to be able to walk a lot. Teams won't give him much to hit with all of the stiffs on this team.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2013, 05:05 PM
...

Damn iPhone autocorrect

doublem23
05-13-2013, 05:17 PM
True, as I alluded to earlier. I don't think Beckham is our answer at 2B, but I also don't know how to answer that particular question.

It all depends on how much he's getting paid. When he was making league minimum, then he's fine. Now that he's getting paid a shade under $3 million, that production becomes a concern. He was hitting a little better before he broke his wrist, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he's turned the corner? Because I am a crazy person.

But I think this is a real do or die year for Gordon. Unfortunately, Carlos Sanchez is off to a pretty miserable start in AAA.

DSpivack
05-13-2013, 06:18 PM
It all depends on how much he's getting paid. When he was making league minimum, then he's fine. Now that he's getting paid a shade under $3 million, that production becomes a concern. He was hitting a little better before he broke his wrist, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he's turned the corner? Because I am a crazy person.

But I think this is a real do or die year for Gordon. Unfortunately, Carlos Sanchez is off to a pretty miserable start in AAA.

Yup, hopefully Beckham can come back strong once he returns and make this whole discussion moot.

mahagga73
05-13-2013, 07:46 PM
But I'm telling you he's really not, if you're only comparing him to specific individuals in the league you miss out on some very relevant information, specifically that there's a slew of teams in the league that don't even have a player as good as Beckham who can take 500 PA at 2B and deliver the kind of results he did at the plate. Again, I'm not saying he's anything special, just saying he gives you an average AL 2B production. I know that's not what we expected of him when he was drafted and was an up and coming phenom, but it is what it is.

Some people just aren't gonna get it. This season should have left no doubt the value of a top notch fielding combo up the middle. I would venture to say the pathetic play of Beckham's replacement's has cost the Sox a minimum of 3 to 4 games. Beckham's makes up any batting deficiencies with the glove.

TaylorStSox
05-13-2013, 08:02 PM
Some people just aren't gonna get it. This season should have left no doubt the value of a top notch fielding combo up the middle. I would venture to say the pathetic play of Beckham's replacement's has cost the Sox a minimum of 3 to 4 games. Beckham's makes up any batting deficiencies with the glove.

If he played SS, I'd agree. You just can't have 2 offensive holes in the MIF. Ramirez is a much better defender than Beckham, so he wins. Also his position is much harder to fill.

doublem23
05-14-2013, 09:10 AM
If he played SS, I'd agree. You just can't have 2 offensive holes in the MIF. Ramirez is a much better defender than Beckham, so he wins. Also his position is much harder to fill.

Ramirez is really playing some poor defense right now, though, I don't know if people are willing to give him a pass because this entire Sox team seems to have checked out for the season, but (and I would have agreed with you up a week ago without even thinking about it) I really have a hard time stating that Ramirez > Beckham on defense right now, even when you factor in the relative importance of the positions they play.

Hitmen77
05-14-2013, 09:16 AM
It was nice to see Sale pitch a 1-hitter in front of a national audience. He's one of the few bright spots in the entire White Sox organization. I'm glad they have him locked up long term.

TaylorStSox
05-14-2013, 09:19 AM
Ramirez is really playing some poor defense right now, though, I don't know if people are willing to give him a pass because this entire Sox team seems to have checked out for the season, but (and I would have agreed with you up a week ago without even thinking about it) I really have a hard time stating that Ramirez > Beckham on defense right now, even when you factor in the relative importance of the positions they play.

That's crazy talk. Even that play last night was only an error because it was Ramirez. He makes the very good play look routine. Beckham has no range. He's a vacuum and great at turning the DP, but the kid's a statue out there.