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View Full Version : Flowers or Phegley?


Mr. White Sox
05-09-2013, 05:55 PM
Flowers was below average with the bat in parts of the last two seasons, and shows no signs of improving based on his horribly bad start to the year. His career numbers in 407 PAs (.200/.296/.383) are starting to look more and more like another former White Sox prospect's numbers (.205/.284/.352). That line belongs to Joe Borchard.

Should Flowers get sent to AAA to work on his mechanics, or downgraded to a platoon role with Josh Phegley? Phegley at least has put together some flashy offensive numbers in AAA this year.

If Flowers maintains this offensive offensive production for another month or so, I don't see how the organization can rationalize keeping him in the lineup nearly every day. It may be time to admit the Flowers experiment (which I was in favor of, actually...had to find out if he could hack it eventually) is nearing an end.

That's not to say he can't turn it around, but the evidence is piling against him with every long, desperate swing he takes at those 1-2 curves.

kittle42
05-09-2013, 06:13 PM
I know this seems snarky, but I'll take Option C.

Domeshot17
05-09-2013, 06:24 PM
Phegley is terrible, give Flowers a year to figure it out. This team sucks anyway, we are not going anywhere, lets see if a full year, if he can be the C we thought (230-240 hitter, 20 homers, big arm behind the plate).

But yah, Phegley is never going to be anything but a back up C at best.

kittle42
05-09-2013, 06:28 PM
But yah, Phegley is never going to be anything but a back up C at best.

I love the time of year when people ask for guys who barely belong at AAA to come up to the bigs.

Foulke You
05-09-2013, 06:30 PM
Phegley is terrible, give Flowers a year to figure it out.
Phegley is off to a heck of a start this year. He could just be hot at the plate or perhaps he has figured something out. Pretty nice numbers:

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=572033

However, I do agree that 5 weeks is a bit early to judge Flowers. Although, it does appear that Tyler has a gigantic hole in his swing so far. He also has shown an inability to lay off pitcher's pitches on the outer half of the plate. He gets pull happy and rolls into a lot of 6-3 and 1-3 ground outs. If he is still struggling in July or August, it will be interesting to see if the Sox stick with him the whole way.

sox1970
05-09-2013, 06:33 PM
Too soon to pull the plug on the commitment they made to Flowers.

Too soon to say Phegley stinks.

SoxSpeed22
05-09-2013, 07:35 PM
I wouldn't mind bringing Phegley up just to DH, but as a catcher, Sale's wild pitch stats might triple.

WhiteSox5187
05-09-2013, 07:47 PM
I never thought much of Flowers as a catcher (his CS rate is 18%), but there are no other options. Ride it out and figure out who we can get next year.

Golden Sox
05-09-2013, 08:14 PM
I really like the idea of bringing up Josh Phegley as our DH. If the White Sox can find some way/anyway of getting Adam Done off the team, I would have no problem with giving Phegley a shot as our DH. He couldn't possibly be worse than Done.

blandman
05-09-2013, 09:55 PM
Too soon to pull the plug on the commitment they made to Flowers.

Too soon to say Phegley stinks.

It might be too soon to give up on both players (as they're both young), but it's not too soon to say they both have no business on a major league team with any sort of aspirations. Both are projects more than prospects, and not likely to amount to anything.

CoopaLoop
05-09-2013, 10:57 PM
This team is going to be so ****ing bad when they have to blow it up.

DSpivack
05-09-2013, 11:07 PM
This team is going to be so ****ing bad when they have to blow it up.
Going to be?

CoopaLoop
05-09-2013, 11:27 PM
Going to be?

If you think this is bad, just wait.

DSpivack
05-09-2013, 11:40 PM
If you think this is bad, just wait.

I just hope our trading chips are healthy and decent enough to get something in return.

Along those lines, losing Floyd was a real shame.

rdivaldi
05-09-2013, 11:43 PM
Phegley is terrible...

But yah, Phegley is never going to be anything but a back up C at best.

Ridiculous. Phegley was an All-American in college and is tearing the cover off the ball in AAA. If not for his rare illness that took away 2010 and 2011, he'd probably already be in the majors.

rdivaldi
05-09-2013, 11:45 PM
I love the time of year when people ask for guys who barely belong at AAA to come up to the bigs.

Phegley is knocking on the door to the majors, to say that he "barely belongs at AAA" is pretty foolish.

Tragg
05-10-2013, 12:27 AM
Whoever plays the position the best should be the starter. But if Phegley can it, I think they can find a spot for him regardless.

JB98
05-10-2013, 01:52 AM
I haven't seen enough of Phegley to have an opinion.

I know Flowers stinks. I knew that before the year began. I'm stunned Sox brass didn't know it.

doublem23
05-10-2013, 02:20 AM
I know Flowers stinks. I knew that before the year began. I'm stunned Sox brass didn't know it.

I'm sure the Sox knew they weren't getting an All-Star bat with Tyler, but his defense has been as good as advertised. Kind of hard for me to pin all his offensive failings on him right now, basically everyone on the team is underperforming, might just be the result of a crappy coaching staff.

cards press box
05-10-2013, 05:53 AM
I know Flowers stinks. I knew that before the year began. I'm stunned Sox brass didn't know it.

I agree. Flowers doesn't appear to have anything close to a major league bat. He might be a major league backup catcher, but barely, if that.

The Sox short term future at catcher could well be: (a) Josh Phegley, (b) a free agent signing such as Brian McCann or Jarrod Saltalamachia or (c) both. It would not surprise me if Flowers is not on the Sox roster in 2014, if not sooner.

EMachine10
05-10-2013, 08:06 AM
I agree. Flowers doesn't appear to have anything close to a major league bat. He might be a major league backup catcher, but barely, if that.

The Sox short term future at catcher could well be: (a) Josh Phegley, (b) a free agent signing such as Brian McCann or Jarrod Saltalamachia or (c) both. It would not surprise me if Flowers is not on the Sox roster in 2014, if not sooner.
I'm not sure how much you really gain over Flowers with Salty right now. If that's the option, give me the cheaper option, especially if this goes into a more enthusiastic rebuild.

TaylorStSox
05-10-2013, 09:03 AM
Hasn't Phegley been a terrible hitter since being drafted outside of this hot month?

Flowers has been disappointing, but he needs more than a month to show whether he belongs or not. This team isn't going anywhere. They might as well audition him.

*edit*
Just looked it up. Yes, he's been pretty awful.

Domeshot17
05-10-2013, 09:16 AM
Ridiculous. Phegley was an All-American in college and is tearing the cover off the ball in AAA. If not for his rare illness that took away 2010 and 2011, he'd probably already be in the majors.

Ehh, he was a huge reach when we drafted him, he was a quick sign pick, that was well known.

Look at his home/road splits. In a month, he is going to regress to his norm. He is a solid defender, he will have a role on a big league team, but to throw out his entire body of work historically (even not looking at the years he was ill), because of a couple good road series is comical.

The potential of Flowers is >>>>>>>>>>>> The potential of Phegley... you have to give him the time as a starter to see what he does over a full year.

What I don't get is how people who clamor for Beckham to stay at 2b for his D will not give Tyler Flowers 1/3 the time Beckham has had, when Flowers is providing equal defense at a more defensive position.

TaylorStSox
05-10-2013, 09:25 AM
Ehh, he was a huge reach when we drafted him, he was a quick sign pick, that was well known.

Look at his home/road splits. In a month, he is going to regress to his norm. He is a solid defender, he will have a role on a big league team, but to throw out his entire body of work historically (even not looking at the years he was ill), because of a couple good road series is comical.

The potential of Flowers is >>>>>>>>>>>> The potential of Phegley... you have to give him the time as a starter to see what he does over a full year.

What I don't get is how people who clamor for Beckham to stay at 2b for his D will not give Tyler Flowers 1/3 the time Beckham has had, when Flowers is providing equal defense at a more defensive position.

You know why...:cool:

kittle42
05-10-2013, 09:51 AM
Hasn't Phegley been a terrible hitter since being drafted outside of this hot month?

Flowers has been disappointing, but he needs more than a month to show whether he belongs or not. This team isn't going anywhere. They might as well audition him.

*edit*
Just looked it up. Yes, he's been pretty awful.

Yes, but you see - 5 weeks of cold Tyler Flowers is enough to call for his head. 5 weeks of a hot AAA catcher is enough to anoint him the starter.

While we're at it, get this "Jim Gallagher" character up here, too! He's hot! Never mind that he's 27 and has stunk it up in AAA prior to these 83 at-bats!

Get Jason Berken in this rotation now! Or at least as a long man! So what if he has stunk it up in the majors - he just needed a change of scenery!

Baseball fans! Ignoring organizational depth guys for decades!

blandman
05-10-2013, 09:58 AM
Ridiculous. Phegley was an All-American in college and is tearing the cover off the ball in AAA. If not for his rare illness that took away 2010 and 2011, he'd probably already be in the majors.

I know you've been all about the kid since he was drafted, but I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment. The kid's been nothing but terrible defensively, and his swing is way too flat to ever be effective at creating any sort of power. Unless he changes his approach (not likely at this stage), I don't see him being anything but a backup.

TaylorStSox
05-10-2013, 10:04 AM
I'll just come out and say it... If Phegley wasn't a Hoosier, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The kid's been bad. I know he's faced some real adversity, but he's still only played over 100 games twice. He's 25 and he's having his first hot month after repeating AAA.

aryzner
05-10-2013, 10:29 AM
I do not think that the solution at catcher is currently with the organization.

SI1020
05-10-2013, 11:46 AM
I do not think that the solution at catcher is currently with the organization. The thread winner for me.

JB98
05-10-2013, 12:14 PM
I'm sure the Sox knew they weren't getting an All-Star bat with Tyler, but his defense has been as good as advertised. Kind of hard for me to pin all his offensive failings on him right now, basically everyone on the team is underperforming, might just be the result of a crappy coaching staff.

Really? I think he's OK behind the plate, but I don't see other teams shutting down their running game because of Tyler Flowers.

The guy is just a backup catcher, nothing more, nothing less.

rdivaldi
05-10-2013, 12:58 PM
I know you've been all about the kid since he was drafted, but I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment. The kid's been nothing but terrible defensively, and his swing is way too flat to ever be effective at creating any sort of power. Unless he changes his approach (not likely at this stage), I don't see him being anything but a backup.

His defensive prowess has improved quite a bit since he first came into the system. I will readily admit that he isn't great at stopping balls in the dirt and gives up too many passed balls, but his arm is top notch. He is consistently above 40% at throwing runners out.

I do not agree with your assessment of his swing, it is not "flat".

rdivaldi
05-10-2013, 01:01 PM
I'll just come out and say it... If Phegley wasn't a Hoosier, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The kid's been bad. I know he's faced some real adversity, but he's still only played over 100 games twice. He's 25 and he's having his first hot month after repeating AAA.

His illness was severe and cost him almost 2 years of development. I am biased as he is a Hoosier and have been watching him play since he was a sophomore. But to write this off as a "hot month" is in my opinion short sighted. He's a talented hitter.

rdivaldi
05-10-2013, 01:04 PM
Yes, but you see - 5 weeks of cold Tyler Flowers is enough to call for his head. 5 weeks of a hot AAA catcher is enough to anoint him the starter.

While we're at it, get this "Jim Gallagher" character up here, too! He's hot! Never mind that he's 27 and has stunk it up in AAA prior to these 83 at-bats!

Get Jason Berken in this rotation now! Or at least as a long man! So what if he has stunk it up in the majors - he just needed a change of scenery!

Baseball fans! Ignoring organizational depth guys for decades!

Hyperbole. Some of us are just wondering if it's time for the kid to get a shot. Your response is the equivalent of a "strawman" argument.

kittle42
05-10-2013, 01:09 PM
Hyperbole. Some of us are just wondering if it's time for the kid to get a shot. Your response is the equivalent of a "strawman" argument.

By midseason, when people are calling for someone akin to Dallas MacPherson to come up, I'll bump this post. It happens *every* year.

blandman
05-10-2013, 01:14 PM
His defensive prowess has improved quite a bit since he first came into the system. I will readily admit that he isn't great at stopping balls in the dirt and gives up too many passed balls, but his arm is top notch. He is consistently above 40% at throwing runners out.

I do not agree with your assessment of his swing, it is not "flat".

By flat, I mean level. Level to a fault, he gets no lift at all. Would be fine if he were a speedster.

Most scouting reports out there on him say the same thing...

CoopaLoop
05-10-2013, 05:54 PM
Yes, but you see - 5 weeks of cold Tyler Flowers is enough to call for his head. 5 weeks of a hot AAA catcher is enough to anoint him the starter.

While we're at it, get this "Jim Gallagher" character up here, too! He's hot! Never mind that he's 27 and has stunk it up in AAA prior to these 83 at-bats!

Get Jason Berken in this rotation now! Or at least as a long man! So what if he has stunk it up in the majors - he just needed a change of scenery!

Baseball fans! Ignoring organizational depth guys for decades!

I love this post.

Crestani
05-10-2013, 06:33 PM
I'm sure the Sox knew they weren't getting an All-Star bat with Tyler, but his defense has been as good as advertised. Kind of hard for me to pin all his offensive failings on him right now, basically everyone on the team is underperforming, might just be the result of a crappy coaching staff.


You mean the Robin Ventura look alike sucks as bad as Greg Walker? Or could it be the philosophy of taking the first pitch at every at bat right down the middle for a called strike, then swing at bad breaking balls in the dirt and outside. It was that way with Walker and it is the same with Manto....It makes me sick, but I still watch...!!! :angry:

Heff
05-11-2013, 07:30 AM
7558

"Miss me yet?"

asindc
05-11-2013, 09:25 AM
7558

"Miss me yet?"

Are you asking us or Texas fans?

kittle42
05-11-2013, 10:16 AM
7558

"Miss me yet?"

Thanks for bringing another thing I loathe up in this thread - pining for players who are gone.

DSpivack
05-11-2013, 10:19 AM
Thanks for bringing another thing I loathe up in this thread - pining for players who are gone.

So you're saying the Sox couldn't use Mike LaValliere? Chad Kreuger? Mark Johnson?

kittle42
05-11-2013, 10:20 AM
So you're saying the Sox couldn't use Mike LaValliere? Chad Kreuger? Mark Johnson?

Miguel Olivo! :D:

Wait, someone probably believes that.

DSpivack
05-11-2013, 10:23 AM
Miguel Olivo! :D:

Wait, someone probably believes that.

Speaking of Olivo, Freddy Garcia is still pitching. And, for that matter, Mike Morse is back in Seattle.

Where Jeremy Reed is, I don't know...

Heff
05-11-2013, 10:52 AM
Thanks for bringing another thing I loathe up in this thread - pining for players who are gone.

Shocker - someone on WSI pissing and moaning about every little thing... It was a joke.

Mr. White Sox
05-11-2013, 01:16 PM
Yes, but you see - 5 weeks of cold Tyler Flowers is enough to call for his head. 5 weeks of a hot AAA catcher is enough to anoint him the starter.

While we're at it, get this "Jim Gallagher" character up here, too! He's hot! Never mind that he's 27 and has stunk it up in AAA prior to these 83 at-bats!

Get Jason Berken in this rotation now! Or at least as a long man! So what if he has stunk it up in the majors - he just needed a change of scenery!

Baseball fans! Ignoring organizational depth guys for decades!

More like 410 Plate Appearances of Cold Tyler Flowers.

Clearly, the answer to my original question is Option C, but seeing as how we aren't going to trade Flowers for Posey, I figure Phegley at least = Hector Gimenez. May as well give the kid a cup of coffee for a good month or two of hitting...considering the state of the White Sox organization both above and below the major league line (how many other bats - minor or major - have an OPS near 1.000?), my suggestion that he be brought up is hardly ludicrous nor deserving of vitriolic scorn.

If this situation continues for another month, and Flowers is still barely cracking a .600 OPS and continues to strike out at a nearly Dunn-like rate (31.2% vs. 32.8%), and Phegley continues to mash (lots of ifs, I know)...

I don't see what you have to lose by replacing some ABs of a player who is actively costing the White Sox wins at the major league level (passed ball last night) with another player who has yet to cost the White Sox wins at the major league level.

Yikes.

kittle42
05-11-2013, 01:27 PM
Shocker - someone on WSI pissing and moaning about every little thing... It was a joke.

I wasn't ripping you - the concept (which comes up a lot) is what I was ripping. I mean, someone was pining for Brent Lillibridge!

kittle42
05-11-2013, 01:28 PM
If this situation continues for another month, and Flowers is still barely cracking a .600 OPS and continues to strike out at a nearly Dunn-like rate (31.2% vs. 32.8%), and Phegley continues to mash (lots of ifs, I know)...

This season isn't going anywhere. Let him flail away for 500 ABs and prove to this dumb organization that he blows.

Mr. White Sox
05-11-2013, 02:37 PM
I wasn't ripping you - the concept (which comes up a lot) is what I was ripping. I mean, someone was pining for Brent Lillibridge!

Ahh, ok, sorry I misread your post!

And I agree with you keeping Flowers in the majors for the year. I was just thinking maybe you get Phegley in there as a platoon option. Tyler would still have a full season of about 350 more PAs to show what he can do, which combined with his previous PAs should be enough to force the Sox to make a decision.

DickAllen72
05-11-2013, 04:43 PM
7558

"Miss me yet?"
Of course.