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View Full Version : Angel Hernandez kicks another call


SoxFanCPA
05-09-2013, 07:44 AM
He blows an obvious game-tying HR with 2 outs in the ninth. After a discussion, he decides to review the play and blows it again even though the video shows a clear home run.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=26965213&topic_id=11493214

Why is it always the same umpires and why do they still have jobs?

Bobby Thigpen
05-09-2013, 08:20 AM
It's not always the same umpires.

It's just that when one blows a big call once, it becomes news when they do it again. If this were anyone but a "reputed" bad ump, no one would have a single clue what ump made the call.

It's how good you perceive the umpire to be. When calls like this get made, you want to say "Look, he sucks! Here's evidence!" and then you overlook the millions of good calls he's made between bad ones. Do some maybe make more frequent bad calls than others? Yes, but cherry picking to prove a point doesn't mean that overall they're "bad".

Dibbs
05-09-2013, 08:30 AM
That is terrible. There is no excuse for that.

SI1020
05-09-2013, 09:02 AM
It's not always the same umpires.

It's just that when one blows a big call once, it becomes news when they do it again. If this were anyone but a "reputed" bad ump, no one would have a single clue what ump made the call.

It's how good you perceive the umpire to be. When calls like this get made, you want to say "Look, he sucks! Here's evidence!" and then you overlook the millions of good calls he's made between bad ones. Do some maybe make more frequent bad calls than others? Yes, but cherry picking to prove a point doesn't mean that overall they're "bad". I disagree. Just like some ballplayers are much better than others, it is the same with umpires. It shouldn't be but it is. It's true an umpire with a good reputation, like a Jim Joyce, can make a major blunder. However others like CB Bucknor, Joe West, and yes Angel Hernandez have proven over time to leave a lot to be desired.

pythons007
05-09-2013, 09:33 AM
I'd really like to hear how they called that a double! What replay were they watching that showed anything but the ball hitting the railing. Was it dimly lit in there? Were they using a grainy TV? Was the TV monitor 6 inches? Was it in black in white? Was there slow motion? Were they watching it through netting, covered in dirt, with sun glasses on, in complete darkness from 50 feet away?

Irishsox1
05-09-2013, 10:12 AM
There seems to be a lot of visual evidence to call that a homerun but instant replay is still a judgement call.

The other issue is Cleveland's left field wall. I understand the bars for protection of the fans but the padded wall in left doesn't need to be that high creating this mess. I've seen close calls like this because of the Sox playing so many games in Cleveland and I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

chicagowhitesox1
05-09-2013, 11:02 AM
Bud Selig needs to overturn that call. I watched this game last night and I still can't believe this. Alot of the Indian players were even laughing.

Lip Man 1
05-09-2013, 11:10 AM
I'd be shocked if Bud did anything.

Officials should be held accountable for what they do or not do and what they say...same as broadcasters, players and front office types.

I never understood why officials are considered off limits and why, when they are fined or suspended nothing is ever publicly said by the respective sport league.

Lip

doublem23
05-09-2013, 11:46 AM
Robot umpires, please

chicagowhitesox1
05-09-2013, 11:48 AM
I'd be shocked if Bud did anything.

Officials should be held accountable for what they do or not do and what they say...same as broadcasters, players and front office types.

I never understood why officials are considered off limits and why, when they are fined or suspended nothing is ever publicly said by the respective sport league.

Lip

I don't understand that either but I would gain some respect for Selig if he did overturn this.

SaltyPretzel
05-09-2013, 12:35 PM
"Even with replay, Angel Hernandez got it wrong, and that's not really a surprise." :rolling:

asindc
05-09-2013, 12:36 PM
I don't like this ruling for the obvious reasons, and also because it deprives a proud graduate of Western Michigan Univ., Adam Rosales, of a home run.

MeteorsSox4367
05-09-2013, 01:01 PM
I think what makes the call even worse is that Hernandez kicks Melvin out of the game during the argument.

Unless Melvin dropped some magic words during the conversation, his leash should have been limitless after Hernandez's booting the call.

kittle42
05-09-2013, 02:27 PM
Robot umpires, please

With pitch trax, there is already no need for a caller of balls and strikes.

Tragg
05-09-2013, 02:52 PM
That's a world class bad call. Angel should be suspended for abject incompetence.

chicagowhitesox1
05-09-2013, 03:13 PM
In my money fantasy league I now am down in wins because of this.

johnny bench
05-09-2013, 05:16 PM
Joe Torre admits the obvious, but call will stand. (http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/MLB-says-umpires-made-improper-call-against-A-s-4502388.php)

Boondock Saint
05-09-2013, 05:30 PM
I disagree. Just like some ballplayers are much better than others, it is the same with umpires. It shouldn't be but it is. It's true an umpire with a good reputation, like a Jim Joyce, can make a major blunder. However others like CB Bucknor, Joe West, and yes Angel Hernandez have proven over time to leave a lot to be desired.

I'm on board with this line of thinking. Those three guys are awful representatives of baseball.

kittle42
05-09-2013, 05:46 PM
:hawk

"You gotta be bleepin' me!"

RKMeibalane
05-09-2013, 06:06 PM
Joe Torre admits the obvious, but call will stand. (http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/MLB-says-umpires-made-improper-call-against-A-s-4502388.php)

I defy someone in Major League Baseball to grow a pair.

Bobby Thigpen
05-09-2013, 06:10 PM
I defy someone in Major League Baseball to grow a pair.
Says the man who has taken to twitter to try to start a movement for people to inexplicably call Skip Bayless Beavis.

Seriously, what do you want them to do? Have everyone go back and restart the game from that point onward?

asindc
05-09-2013, 06:30 PM
Says the man who has taken to twitter to try to start a movement for people to inexplicably call Skip Bayless Beavis.

Seriously, what do you want them to do? Have everyone go back and restart the game from that point onward?

Yes.

RKMeibalane
05-09-2013, 06:31 PM
Says the man who has taken to twitter to try to start a movement for people to inexplicably call Skip Bayless Beavis.

What does this have to do with anything?

Seriously, what do you want them to do? Have everyone go back and restart the game from that point onward?
That's exactly what I want them to do.

chicagowhitesox1
05-09-2013, 06:37 PM
I think thats what they need to do too.

Bobby Thigpen
05-09-2013, 06:38 PM
Has that ever happened in baseball? A call being reversed and the game being restarted at a later date?

chicagowhitesox1
05-09-2013, 06:48 PM
Has that ever happened in baseball? A call being reversed and the game being restarted at a later date?

Pine Tar Incident 1983.

TDog
05-09-2013, 07:29 PM
I defy someone in Major League Baseball to grow a pair.

It isn't just baseball. There was a call at the end of an NFL game last year that stood even though everyone everywhere seemed to be talking for a week about how it was obvious that the call, which decided which team was going to win, apparently with a dead clock at the end, was wrong and the replay showed it.

The problem with replay is that the NFL didn't define it right, but the NFL seems to be able to do nothing wrong. The problem is the idea that you need a higher standard to overturn a call than to make a call in the first place. Replay isn't going to work if there is a presumption that the official got it right, as if he if innocent until proven guilty.

I have always been skeptical of instant replay in baseball because so often play continues after a call. I think you need the immediate call if you are on the field. Reversing that call can screw everything up that follows. I was watching cricket's Indian Premier League recently, and they treated the equivalent of a close safe-or-out call like a photo finish in horse racing. I was impressed with how well it worked, although the play ended with a dead ball. Even twenty20 cricket is slower paced than baseball, so the delay wasn't considered a problem.

I think baseball needs umpires making immediate calls. But I also think the only way instant replay can work is if there is someone or a crew watching the replays as they occur and reversing the calls if they are wrong. Every call. If it's just calls that are appealed or complained about, you don't have a fair instant replay system. And fair is what it should be.

TDog
05-09-2013, 07:37 PM
Pine Tar Incident 1983.

That, of course, involved the incorrect application of a rule by an umpire, or so it was determined. The game was protested. The protest was upheld. The baseball rules allow for protests of games for misapplications of rules. They do not allow for protests based on judgment calls. Rules allow for reconsideration by an umpiring crew of a judgment call, but not of a protest based on disagreement, even majority disagreement of the reconsidered judgment.

Where in any American sport has a game been replayed from the point of a judgment call that replay showed was incorrect?

WhiteSox5187
05-09-2013, 07:58 PM
The happiest man in baseball today is Angel Hernandez, he got to read his name in the paper!

RKMeibalane
05-09-2013, 08:09 PM
The happiest man in baseball today is Angel Hernandez, he got to read his name in the paper!

Joe West is jealous.

eastchicagosoxfan
05-09-2013, 08:10 PM
I'm in the smallest of minorities here, (maybe of one?) but instant replay has no part in sports. The tv cameras are an extension of the broadcaster, who has no part of the game. No broadcaster, no replay. Now if there was a tradition of throwing close calls to the writers, I suppose an arguement can be made to include replay. The players don't get "do overs." The umpires are part of the game, just as the players are.

I think if a robotic strike zone was established, guys would regularly hit .400.

RKMeibalane
05-09-2013, 08:18 PM
Slightly OT, but wasn't Steve McMichael supposed to beat the **** out of Hernandez?

Brewski
05-09-2013, 08:29 PM
Same thing happened on a ball hit by Maggs years ago when the Sox had a consecutive game HR streak going. No replay then, but someone hit a HR in the 10th inning and we won the game and kept the streak going. Anyone remember who and when? I don't.

Those bars above the yellow line are a blown call waiting to happen.

RKMeibalane
05-09-2013, 08:44 PM
Same thing happened on a ball hit by Maggs years ago when the Sox had a consecutive game HR streak going. No replay then, but someone hit a HR in the 10th inning and we won the game and kept the streak going. Anyone remember who and when? I don't.

Those bars above the yellow line are a blown call waiting to happen.

IIRC, Eric Cooper blew that call. He later threw Frank out of the game for arguing balls and strikes. This was after he'd missed a call involving Joe Crede in Baltimore.

Zakath
05-10-2013, 07:27 AM
At the end of the video, the WTAM announcer had it perfectly:

"And even with replay, Angel Hernandez got it wrong, and that's really not a surprise."

The only surprise for me is that Melvin isn't still up in his grill over that call.

Moses_Scurry
05-10-2013, 08:27 AM
I think it would set a terrible precedent for MLB to reverse a call after the game is over, no matter how bad the call is. If that actually happened, games would start being played under protest all the time. It would eventually devolve to games under protest for a bad third strike call in the second inning. Where would the line be between a call bad enough to reverse and a bad call that's not quite bad enough?

Also, I saw that the Angels played a game under protest yesterday or the day before. Wasn't Scioscia the one that protested a game against the Sox last year? Announcing that you are playing a game under protest sounds like a grade school recess stomp and huff move to me.

doublem23
05-10-2013, 09:09 AM
Phil Rogers being a predictable idiot:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0510-rogers-column-angel-hernandez-20130510,0,682369.column

FielderJones
05-10-2013, 12:54 PM
I think if a robotic strike zone was established, guys would regularly hit .400.

Assertions made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

kittle42
05-10-2013, 01:11 PM
Assertions made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

Oh, do I wish 90% of the world realized this.

TDog
05-10-2013, 02:15 PM
...

I think if a robotic strike zone was established, guys would regularly hit .400.

It's only a guess, but I'm thinking that a robotic strike zone following the letter of the rule book would result in fewer walks and lower batting averages. As long as I've been watching baseball, the strike zone seems to be called smaller than it's defined in the rule book, at least up and down. I think this year one of the reasons there are so many strike outs all over baseball is that higher strikes are being called.

chicagowhitesox1
05-10-2013, 04:10 PM
It's only a guess, but I'm thinking that a robotic strike zone following the letter of the rule book would result in fewer walks and lower batting averages. As long as I've been watching baseball, the strike zone seems to be called smaller than it's defined in the rule book, at least up and down. I think this year one of the reasons there are so many strike outs all over baseball is that higher strikes are being called.

I disagree with this, I feel a roobtic strike zone would result in the next 400 hitter fairly quick. A good hitter would adjust quickly to this and thrive. I can see your point too but I don't think it would work out that way.

mzh
05-10-2013, 04:46 PM
If the strike zone was robotic and therefore invariable for each individual hitter, a hitter could look at a thousand pitches on the outside corner from a pitching machine and train himself to know EXACTLY what constitutes a strike and a ball. I agree, I don't think it would be long before the better hitters find their comfort zone. A hitter like Bryce Harper could probably hit .400 with 150 walks.

TDog
05-10-2013, 07:52 PM
If the strike zone was robotic and therefore invariable for each individual hitter, a hitter could look at a thousand pitches on the outside corner from a pitching machine and train himself to know EXACTLY what constitutes a strike and a ball. I agree, I don't think it would be long before the better hitters find their comfort zone. A hitter like Bryce Harper could probably hit .400 with 150 walks.

There is no way to test this hypothesis because a robotic strike zone isn't going to happen. For the sake of argument, though, I believe, though, that if pitchers got the high strikes, as defined in the rule book and the low strikes as defined in the rule book, there would be fewer walks and less offense. Right now hitters are comfortable working with a strike zone is much smaller than it would be. I believe the smaller strike zone, height-wise, has contributed to greater offense. If hitters have to protect up and down in addition to in and out, they won't be able to focus on hitting in a single plane. For years, pitchers have been limited to working in and out. Sometimes they have been able to entice hitters to swing at pitches the were up out of the zone, but many of those pitches up out of the zone would be strikes with a rule-book-robotic strike zone.

The strike zone is supposed to be from the armpits to the bottom of the knees, as a player swings at the pitch, not in his pre-swing stance. There are a lot of good hitters who couldn't put a good arm-pit-high fastball into play with any authority. Factor in the need to protect for lower strikes and simply following the rules in calling balls and strikes changes the dynamics of hitting and makes it more of a pitcher's game.

RKMeibalane
05-10-2013, 08:56 PM
And now this...

MLB Umpiring Crew Chief Suspended Two Games For Botched Call (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/crew-chief-suspension-appropriately-ends-bad-couple-days-for-mlb-umpires-232120200.html)

Why the **** do these people have jobs? I'm serious. There is absolutely no ****ing excuse for this level of incompetence. I suppose I wouldn't be that upset if there were a better system in place for holding these people accountable, but there isn't. That will never happen as long as the MLB Umpire's Union has as much power as it does.

And guess who's president of that eclectic group?

None other than The Fattest Man on the Planet, Joe West. Who's surprised?

A seventeen-year-old knows the rulebook better than these pieces of ****. Now, there are some extremely bright and knoweldgeable seventeen-year-olds out there, but this is ridiculous. Why the **** does this crap continue? Why? Is Bud Selig that much of a ****ing ***** that he can't (or won't) do something to rectify the situation. I don't expect him to suddenly pull a rabbit out of his hat, but I think MLB umpires should be made to answer for their mistakes, and the public should know about it.

Mike & Mike had a great discussion about this issue earlier today during their radio show. They started the discussion by noting something that all of us on this board are aware of: MLB umpires want to be part of the show, and some of them (West) go out of their way to have the spotlight shine on them (because fans pay to watch Joe West's three-mile-wide fat ass strut around for three hours). They went on to argue that if an umpire wants to be part of the spotlight that he can't have it both ways. He should be prepared to answer questions in front of the media (with cameras rolling) as any professional athlete would.

Apart from the fact that I love Mike & Mike, I think this is a great idea. After all, if umpires want to be part of the show, then they should part of the show for the entire length of its run. Cameo appearances for the sake of throwing a player or manager out of the game aren't allowed, nor are impromptu shouting matches with pitchers because of questionable ball-and-strike calls.

Are you listening, Joe, you maggot mother****er? Huh? I'm talking to you you worthless ********er. Pay attention! Listen! Listen, and maybe learn something for once! Put down your guitar! This isn't a bar in Boston. Pull your bulbous head out of your ass!

How 'bout you, Bud, you no-talent waste of space? Do you have anything at all to say about this latest blunder by your perfect umpires? Are you going to do something about it, or are you going to take another one up the ass? Would you like some more lubricant applied? There's plenty available from the looks of it.

Good gawd, these people make me sick.