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baggio202
08-01-2002, 08:45 AM
Williams wants to lower payroll by $12 million



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By Paul Sullivan
Tribune staff reporter

August 1, 2002



MINNEAPOLIS -- It's not just the fans wondering why the White Sox are dealing veteran players and paying other teams to take them off their hands.

Players in the Sox's clubhouse were shaking their heads as well Wednesday after reliever Bob Howry was traded to Boston, along with "cash considerations," for two low-level pitching prospects.

All told, the Sox will pay more than $1.5 million to Boston, Oakland, San Francisco and Colorado to help defray the costs of the salaries of Howry, Ray Durham, Kenny Lofton and Sandy Alomar Jr.

If they're still paying most of their salaries and not getting any major-leaguers in return, why not just keep them for the final two months?

General manager Ken Williams said during spring training the Sox's future was tied to the team's attendance. With the season two-thirds over and the Sox lagging in attendance again, Williams was ordered to slash as much of the payroll as he could, even if he had to pay some of their remaining salaries. Williams said everyone should understand the Sox were motivated sellers in a buyer's market for the ages.

"We didn't start the market in terms of cash consideration," Williams said. "It was already established with four other clubs that had these type of dollars associated [with deals]. People don't want to believe this, but even the teams that are doing well [on the field] are not doing well [financially]. The industry is in a state of crisis.

"I am privy to all the numbers on different teams. I know other clubs' situations. At some point you're faced with a decision to either accept reality and cut losses, and try at the same time filling in [the farm system] with needed players. Or else you can ignore the market and not make a deal and lose out at the end of the year in terms of your free agents, and then receive nothing for them.

"People are assuming you get a draft pick for a player who is leaving. They forget that to [get the draft pick] you have to offer arbitration [to the free agent]. The market, the way it is now and how it might be next [winter]--the players might accept [arbitration]. I had to make decisions--either to sit with the current roster the way it was or make the decision to pay about half of the dollar amount of savings. And that's what we have to do."

In a report Commissioner Bud Selig delivered last December to the House Judiciary Committee in Washington, the White Sox were said to have lost $7.6 million in 2001. While those numbers have been disputed, the Sox are obviously in a budget-conscious mode. Sources said Williams would like to pare the payroll down to $45 million in 2003 from this year's $57 million. Large raises to Magglio Ordonez, Keith Foulke, Carlos Lee and arbitration-eligible Paul Konerko will make that a difficult task, even at this rate.

Williams also tried desperately to trade shortstop Royce Clayton and DH Frank Thomas, but found no takers. Clayton still is owed $1.5 million, and may be released within the week, especially if shortstop D'Angelo Jimenez is called up, as expected.

Thomas knew no team wanted his contract, which calls for him to receive $9,927,000 per year from 2003-2006 with $3,827,000 deferred with interest. Under the so-called "diminished skills clause," the Sox can revise Thomas' base salary after this year to $250,000 with $10,125,000 deferred. If Thomas terminated the contract, the Sox would owe him $250,000 per year for the rest of the contract, or about $1 million, and he would be a free agent.

Because Thomas' contract becomes guaranteed with a trade, no teams even bothered asking Williams about his availability. The next in line to be traded, perhaps in the off-season, are Lee, Foulke and Jose Valentin, who will make more than $15 million combined next year. All three are expendable, but the Sox hope those three can beef up their stats in the final two months and increase their trade value at the winter meetings.

Is Williams done dealing for the season?

"You never say never," he said. "But I don't anticipate anything coming down the pipeline anytime soon."

Two factors predicated the summer sell-off--the underachieving club and the low attendance at Comiskey Park. Williams may take a hit in the stands for his recent moves, but in reality, he had no choice. Everyone has a boss, including Ken Williams.


:sellreinsy
youll get no free agents and like it !!!!

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 08:55 AM
General manager Ken Williams said during spring training the Sox's future was tied to the team's attendance.

well if he didn't screw with the team and even put out a better team, then maybe the attendance would have been better.


In a report Commissioner Bud Selig delivered last December to the House Judiciary Committee in Washington, the White Sox were said to have lost $7.6 million in 2001.

well he added to that by paying 9 million to a player who is a cancer on the team. in addition getting a fa and losing a comp pick for a cat who didn't help at all. how bout not trading folke, howry and even durham when i was saying, 2 yrs ago.

why doesn't admit that the sorry state of the sox maybe directly link to him.

delben91
08-01-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
Clayton still is owed $1.5 million, and may be released within the week, especially if shortstop D'Angelo Jimenez is called up, as expected.



Well, two things...get royce the heck out of here...and brace yourselves for the beginning of FOJ (though it may become the most warranted of the friends groups).

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 09:23 AM
from espn on the trade,

I don't understand what the White Sox did," said one AL scout. The best pitching prospects they got, Francisco Francisco (for Howry) and Felix Diaz (for Lofton), have had arm problems. And most of the other guys "aren't even on the radar screen," said one GM. "Their philosophy," said one scout, "was just addition by subtraction. . . . But stack up what they did against what Cleveland got, and there's no comparison."

voodoochile
08-01-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
from espn on the trade,


The Sox did not trade a single player who is as good as Colon...

The only one close is Durham, but Lofton and Alomar are old and starting to show it and Howry is a middle reliever. All together they are not as good as Colon in terms of potential and current ability.

It also cleared the way for Harris and Crede to get some big league time in and there is NOTHING wrong with that, because they will definitely be here next year...

Foulke You
08-01-2002, 04:16 PM
Once again, Sox fans take the blame. We didn't pack Comiskey with overflowing crowds of 40,000 a game to watch a mediocre team assembled by KW so it's time to back up the truck. Please. Will management EVER take the blame for the state of this franchise? All this low attendance = bad teams crap just makes my blood boil. :angry: How about poor scouting, poor coaching, poor chemistry, poor trade choices, overpaying for bad players, bad baserunning, Royce Clayton, and Todd Ritchie are all Sox fans fault too?

Will Reinsdorf realize that if he spends money to get a World Series to the South Side of Chicago it would be the biggest sports story to happen in this town in decades. Imagine, for a minute, a Sox team that went all the way to the World Series and won it all. Wouldn't your attendance trouble be solved for the next 5 years? Suddenly, Wrigley would be a sideshow place and Comiskey would be the home of the World Champs. Sadly, we don't have an owner that think like this. He prefers to remain "fiscally responsible" while the White Sox faithful in Chicago have to stomach expansion franchises like the Marlins and the D'backs winning a World Series in the 1st few years of their existence while we sadly gaze up at the 1917 flag that flies overhead at Comiskey. I think Dan Helpingstine's book "Through Hope and Despair" was very aptly named.

:sellreinsy
to someone who wants to see a World Series in Chicago

RedPinStripes
08-01-2002, 06:34 PM
Sox fans never saw this before.

:sellreinsy

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


The Sox did not trade a single player who is as good as Colon...

The only one close is Durham, but Lofton and Alomar are old and starting to show it and Howry is a middle reliever. All together they are not as good as Colon in terms of potential and current ability.

It also cleared the way for Harris and Crede to get some big league time in and there is NOTHING wrong with that, because they will definitely be here next year...

i have explain my stand on this trade. we should have waited till the deadline or not trade durham at all. with lofton being traded, willie would've played cf. crede could've been called up a long time ago, with the platooning of jose and royce.

remember the reason why clayton was on the team, kw thought he could trade him, which he didn't. all the money spent on a player that people advised not to pick up. the financial problems, if true it was b/c of clayton salary, sandy contract.

he could've waited for a better deal.

Daver
08-01-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


i have explain my stand on this trade. we should have waited till the deadline or not trade durham at all. with lofton being traded, willie would've played cf. crede could've been called up a long time ago, with the platooning of jose and royce.

remember the reason why clayton was on the team, kw thought he could trade him, which he didn't. all the money spent on a player that people advised not to pick up. the financial problems, if true it was b/c of clayton salary, sandy contract.

he could've waited for a better deal.

There were no other takers and the Sox saved 1.5 mill in payroll.

RedPinStripes
08-01-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by daver


There were no other takers and the Sox saved 1.5 mill in payroll.

They paid just about all the salaries they tried to give away anyway. Desperate moves.

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by daver


There were no other takers and the Sox saved 1.5 mill in payroll.

then keep him till next yr, or let him walk. what we got is in essence the same as letting him walk.

Daver
08-01-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


then keep him till next yr, or let him walk. what we got is in essence the same as letting him walk.

Not if they do away with FA compensation,which is likely to happen,and on top of that to get the compensation you have to offer him arbitration,KW was afraid he would accept it.Realize that next year will be a dismal FA market for the players,the owners will be willing to spend next to nothing after the strike.

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by daver


Not if they do away with FA compensation,which is likely to happen,and on top of that to get the compensation you have to offer him arbitration,KW was afraid he would accept it.Realize that next year will be a dismal FA market for the players,the owners will be willing to spend next to nothing after the strike.

in all my posts, i have never once said about comp picks. i kinda figure that there is not going to be any. what i am saying is what kind of savings are we really talking about, with the salary of this guy added in?

you establish yourself or redeem yourself if you play hardball in these trades. if they don't want to pony up, fine, let them look elsewhere for what they need, if not, then give me something better. if not i will let him walk at the end of the season for nothing, b/c that is what we got, nothing that will help.

Daver
08-01-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


in all my posts, i have never once said about comp picks. i kinda figure that there is not going to be any. what i am saying is what kind of savings are we really talking about, with the salary of this guy added in?

you establish yourself or redeem yourself if you play hardball in these trades. if they don't want to pony up, fine, let them look elsewhere for what they need, if not, then give me something better. if not i will let him walk at the end of the season for nothing, b/c that is what we got, nothing that will help.

OK I missed your point on the pick,but the Sox still dumped a million and a half in salary for THIS season,and made a PR move by avoiding NOT offering Ray arbitration.Had Ray finished out the season here and the Sox turned around and denied him arbitration the fans would be in even more of an uproar than they are now,that is if there are any fans left after the 9th work stoppage in the last 30 years.

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by daver


,but the Sox still dumped a million and a half in salary for THIS season,and made a PR move by avoiding NOT offering Ray arbitration.Had Ray finished out the season here and the Sox turned around and denied him arbitration the fans would be in even more of an uproar than they are now,

save a 1.5 mil minus what is owed for this player. take into consideration when the strike is on, they would not have to pay his salary then. again the player we got is like letting him walk, b/c we got nothing.

give the fans some credit for being intelligent. they will understand that ray is out of the price range for the org. kw has really screwed up this team when he got these player with high price tags.

Daver
08-01-2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


save a 1.5 mil minus what is owed for this player. take into consideration when the strike is on, they would not have to pay his is salary then. again the player we got is like letting him walk, b/c we got nothing.

give the fans some credit for being intelligent. they will understand that ray is out of the price range for the org. kw has really screwed up this team when he got these player with high price tags.

Look at all the people that are still outraged because the Sox didn't re-sign Ventura,even though the "intelligent" fans knew he was not an 8 million dollar a year ballplayer.

And yes KW has placed the Sox in this position,it will be interesting to see if he can get them back out of it.

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by daver


Look at all the people that are still outraged because the Sox didn't re-sign Ventura,even though the "intelligent" fans knew he was not an 8 million dollar a year ballplayer.



ahhh but i was one of them, only b/c robin was not sign b/c of his argument with big frank. look at what a player brings to the table, even at 8mil. what kind of 3b did they have since. only when herbert perry got sign.

but we got taken of the subject at hand.

Daver
08-01-2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


ahhh but i was one of them, only b/c robin was not sign b/c of his argument with big frank. look at what a player brings to the table, even at 8mil. what kind of 3b did they have since. only when herbert perry got sign.

but we got taken of the subject at hand.

In hindsight,after the numbers he put up with the Mets was he worth 8 mil?

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by daver


In hindsight,after the numbers he put up with the Mets was he worth 8 mil?

true, you got me there.

however, i was talking about him at the time. the stability that he brings to the sox.

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 08:28 PM
now back to the discussion, we should have kept or demanded more.

Daver
08-01-2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
now back to the discussion, we should have kept or demanded more.

We will agree to disagree on this one LDF,though I would have liked to get more than a career minor leaguer for Ray myself........



:redneck

cornball
08-01-2002, 09:03 PM
I think the point is Daver, Reinsdorf needs to go....period.

A payroll of 45 million dollars is in the lower 25% of the league. He has the best rent package in the league and i dont believe for one second he lost money on this team. in the stockmarket ..yes the White Sox ...no way

In this business, trading 4 major leaguers (even if you don't like them) for prospects of whom have very little hope of ever making the show...to save 1.5 million dollars....a joke....the Ray Durham deal takes the cake.

1.5 million is nothing in this business...the average salary in the league is around 2 million

Daver
08-01-2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I think the point is Daver, Reinsdorf needs to go....period.

A payroll of 45 million dollars is in the lower 25% of the league. He has the best rent package in the league and i dont believe for one second he lost money on this team. in the stockmarket ..yes the White Sox ...no way

In this business, trading 4 major leaguers (even if you don't like them) for prospects of whom have very little hope of ever making the show...to save 1.5 million dollars....a joke....the Ray Durham deal takes the cake.

1.5 million is nothing in this business...the average salary in the league is around 2 million

I have never said that JR is losing money,in fact I doubt any team outside of possibly the Expos,is losing money,and I have my doubts on the Expos.

What I am seeing is a major salary dump based on what the next month will bring,and that is a work stoppage that the owners can ill-afford,and anything that can be written off now is a plus to any MLB owner.

Am I the only one that questions why Cliff Floyd was acquired Expos only to be traded to the Red Sox three weeks later? And acquired at less than half the value that was spent in his acquisition?

No wonder the MLBPA has no trust in the owners......

ma-gaga
08-01-2002, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by daver
Am I the only one that questions why Cliff Floyd was acquired Expos only to be traded to the Red Sox three weeks later?


No. It stinks. If it wasn't the media darling's Red Sox there would (and should) be a lot more outrage at this. This is worse than the Yankees adding $15MM to their payroll.

... :angry:

LongDistanceFan
08-01-2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by daver


We will agree to disagree on this one LDF,though I would have liked to get more than a career minor leaguer for Ray myself........



:redneck

ok, that is kool

Jerry_Manuel
08-01-2002, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by daver
Am I the only one that questions why Cliff Floyd was acquired Expos only to be traded to the Red Sox three weeks later? And acquired at less than half the value that was spent in his acquisition?


If you listen to Gammons story, the A's, Yankees and Red Sox were bidding for him. Floyd wouldn't go to Oakland, so I guess the Red Sox deal was better.

They were talking about this subject on PTI today. I guess the Boss thinks the league is out to get him. He feels their offer was better.

It does seem fishy.

Randar68
08-01-2002, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
They were talking about this subject on PTI today. I guess the Boss thinks the league is out to get him. He feels their offer was better.

They should go out and stick it to his ass. Even without Fox out west and the Rich Man in Texas, George would still have his payroll where it is now. He is single-handedly ruining fair competition through hogging of local revenue and escalation of salaries. Others aren't helping, but George's NY attitude is unreal.

baggio202
08-01-2002, 11:28 PM
the problem with KW now is that he has a reputation that he cant play hardball...these trades and past trades over his tenure show other GM's that kenny williams will not say no once he has his heart set on a player and you can demand more and more and more or give up less and less and less (depending on the situation)...he has no credibility....if was GM of the phillie would they have paid what they did for rolen???...they probably would have gotten rolen for two 25 year old class A pitcher with 4 surgeries between them and era's higher than ritchie's...

PaleHoseGeorge
08-01-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
....if [KW]was GM of the phillie would they have paid what they did for rolen???...they probably would have gotten rolen for two 25 year old class A pitcher with 4 surgeries between them and era's higher than ritchie's...

LOL! I'm beginning to think we need a tag for Obi-Wan-Kenobi, doing that Jedi mind trick on the weak-minded. For example...

:Obiwan
"You'll take the two 25 year old Class A pitchers with 4 surgeries between them."

:KW
"Yes, I'll take the two 25 year old class A pitchers with 4 surgeries between them and era's higher than ritchie's."

:Obiwan
"That's good. Now I'll call you next week about Buehrle and Garland."

RedPinStripes
08-02-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by daver


In hindsight,after the numbers he put up with the Mets was he worth 8 mil?

His defense, leadership, and clutch hits are worth it. Plus,, Crede is the 1st real 3rd baseman we've had since Robin and he's not developed offensivly in MLB yet. btw, Robin is my all time favorite Sox player so you'll never hear me say he had to go. :D:

soxrme
08-02-2002, 08:58 AM
foulkeyou - your reply should be sent to JR and all the white sox owners. It is right on.
Daver - you are right that trade stinks, Expos lose Floyd and two top propects and former owners improve each others teams. All to cozy.
Daver - you are wrong on Ventura, he would have been worth it.

LongDistanceFan
08-02-2002, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


His defense, leadership, and clutch hits are worth it. Plus,, Crede is the 1st real 3rd baseman we've had since Robin and he's not developed offensivly in MLB yet. btw, Robin is my all time favorite Sox player so you'll never hear me say he had to go. :D:

do you have something for 3b? robin and now crede? :D:

Paulwny
08-02-2002, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


If you listen to Gammons story, the A's, Yankees and Red Sox were bidding for him. Floyd wouldn't go to Oakland, so I guess the Red Sox deal was better.

They were talking about this subject on PTI today. I guess the Boss thinks the league is out to get him. He feels their offer was better.

It does seem fishy.

With the acquisition of Mondesi and Weaver, if the yankmees would have gotten Floyd, this would have played right into Bud's :inequities of the game". I think it was a legit trade.

Clarkdog
08-02-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I think the point is Daver, Reinsdorf needs to go....period.

A payroll of 45 million dollars is in the lower 25% of the league. He has the best rent package in the league and i dont believe for one second he lost money on this team. in the stockmarket ..yes the White Sox ...no way

In this business, trading 4 major leaguers (even if you don't like them) for prospects of whom have very little hope of ever making the show...to save 1.5 million dollars....a joke....the Ray Durham deal takes the cake.

1.5 million is nothing in this business...the average salary in the league is around 2 million

I agree. I also think that Reinsdorf, for all his posturing, has no real committment to making this team a winner. If he wants to blame us for our lack of attendance, he should realize that the attendance is weak because of his lack of commitment. The poor attendance is the result of the problem he's created, not the problem in and of itself.

Proof: The Montreal Expos. From Baseball Prospectus:
It's as if Selig didn't realize what might happen if he allowed Minaya to make the deals. Since the acquisitions of Floyd and Colon, the Expos had broken 10,000 in attendance in 11 of 13 home games, something they'd done just eight times all season before the trades. Oh, hell, let's run a chart:



Average Att. Median Att.
Expos, Not Trying 8,429 6,091
Expos, Trying 14,064 13,402

The trades seemed to prove what we've been saying all along, that fans will come see a team--in any market, in any stadium--that has success, and more importantly, that shows a commitment to winning. On a typical July night, twice as many people came to see the Expos as did before the team made a significant move that signaled that the team was trying to win.

The Sox are going backwards in the weakest division in baseball.

hold2dibber
08-02-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog


I agree. I also think that Reinsdorf, for all his posturing, has no real committment to making this team a winner. If he wants to blame us for our lack of attendance, he should realize that the attendance is weak because of his lack of commitment. The poor attendance is the result of the problem he's created, not the problem in and of itself.[/I]


I think Reinsdorf wants to win - I think he would love to win. However, he believes in doing business "the right way" and is not willing to deviate from that business model. He insists upon blind loyalty to those in the organization, he will not spend money to make money if it means short term losses, he will not sign pitchers to long term deals, he will not deal with Scott Boras' clients, etc., etc. He wants to win, but only on his terms. The problem is, of course, that "business on his terms" precludes winning.

So he can't win and he's not, according to Selig, making any money. So why the hell does JR still own the team?

:selljerry

LongDistanceFan
08-02-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


I think Reinsdorf wants to win - I think he would love to win. However, he believes in doing business "the right way" and is not willing to deviate from that business model. He insists upon blind loyalty to those in the organization, he will not spend money to make money if it means short term losses, he will not sign pitchers to long term deals, he will not deal with Scott Boras' clients, etc., etc. He wants to win, but only on his terms. The problem is, of course, that "business on his terms" precludes winning.

So he can't win and he's not, according to Selig, making any money. So why the hell does JR still own the team?

:selljerry

its the blind loyalty that gets me. i too think that jr wants to win, but hiring incompetent people to run the org is his problem.

cornball
08-02-2002, 08:12 PM
If JR was smart....ha ha ha ha... he would use the enormous amount of equity built up over the past 20 years to buy a champ......or at least make a serious effort......as someone who did the same thing to make his initial fortune....he should know better...if he did the team would be worth a fortune.....


It is had to believe he is losing money when others are buying ML teams for 700+ million , although that was the red sox....what did JR group purchase the sox for something like 25-35MM......funny how much people will spend to purchase something in an industry that is "losing" money.........

Daver
08-02-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by cornball
If JR was smart....ha ha ha ha... he would use the enormous amount of equity built up over the past 20 years to buy a champ......or at least make a serious effort......as someone who did the same thing to make his initial fortune....he should know better...if he did the team would be worth a fortune.....


It is had to believe he is losing money when others are buying ML teams for 700+ million , although that was the red sox....what did JR group purchase the sox for something like 25-35MM......funny how much people will spend to purchase something in an industry that is "losing" money.........

Reinsdorf and Einhorn paid 20 million to purchase the White Sox,Reinsdorf bought out Einhorn several years later,though Eddie is still on the board of directors.

Lip Man 1
08-02-2002, 10:53 PM
What is going to make the White Sox situation even more difficult next year is that of the 45 million in payroll (just for comparison the Royals payroll THIS year is 47 million and NOBODY thought they'd be able to win anything, anywhere), three guys Thomas, Ordonez and (after arbitration) Konerko are going to take almost HALF of it.

That means the other 21 guys are going to be "retreds", "Rule 5 draftees", "more can't miss kids" and a few injured veterans who couldn't sign anywhere else.

Sounds like 3rd or 4th place to me.

But remember IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!

Lip