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Lip Man 1
04-23-2013, 02:42 PM
To bench Dunn... is a question that has been coming up on the boards in some threads.

I'd like to think he does, but given his salary I can't say this with 100% confidence. There's a chance that he'd be 'over ruled' by the powers that be in my mind.

For what it's worth I asked this question to a source in the media who sees the Sox regularly. In their opinion they feel Robin does have the power to bench Dunn at anytime without fear of being over ruled. They said that Robin has more latitude under Rick Hahn then he would have under Kenny.

Again take the comment for whatever you will.

The next question then would be if he does bench him who do the Sox have to replace him, given the injury list and the lack of talent in the minor leagues?

Lip

amsteel
04-23-2013, 02:44 PM
If he doesn't he's a bad manager since trotting Dunn out there every day means he's not sending his best lineup onto the field.

doublem23
04-23-2013, 02:49 PM
As if anyone here has the knowledge to answer this question.

Maybe Robin knows the only conceivable chance the Sox have this year is to pray to everything holy that Dunn figures out his new approach at the plate and can be a reasonably important weapon for the offense. That isn't going to happen with him riding the pine.

dickallen15
04-23-2013, 02:51 PM
Who would be the replacement? You are better off seeing if he can get out of the funk. It's not like they have anything in the wings that would do much better.He should move him down in the order until he shows he is a major league hitter.

Noneck
04-23-2013, 02:52 PM
I dont think anyone in this organization has the power to make any type of big decision without consulting the man at the top.

RKMeibalane
04-23-2013, 02:53 PM
To bench Dunn... is a question that has been coming up on the boards in some threads.

I'd like to think he does, but given his salary I can't say this with 100% confidence. There's a chance that he'd be 'over ruled' by the powers that be in my mind.

For what it's worth I asked this question to a source in the media who sees the Sox regularly. In their opinion they feel Robin does have the power to bench Dunn at anytime without fear of being over ruled. They said that Robin has more latitude under Rick Hahn then he would have under Kenny.

Again take the comment for whatever you will.

The next question then would be if he does bench him who do the Sox have to replace him, given the injury list and the lack of talent in the minor leagues?

Lip

You've touched on an important issue that the Sox are facing, Lip. Many on this board have clamored for Dunn, Viciedo, and others to be replaced due to lack of production, but this assumes that a suitable replacement is available. The Sox do not have MLB caliber talent at the highest levels of their minor league system that can step in and provide an upgrade over Dunn (as scary as that may be), and aren't likely to for the foreseeable future.

There are experienced hitters currently not employed by a Major League organization. One such person is none other than Vladimir Guerrero, who's currently playing for the Long Island Ducks of the Atlantic League. Without knowing what his salary demands would be, it may be worth the Sox reaching out to him, as he would almost certainly provide production that surpasses what Dunn brings to the table.

ESPN published an article (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9137051/vladimir-guerrero-dontrelle-willis-sign-long-islands-ducks-atlantic-league) about Guerrero and Dontrelle Willis signing deals with Long Island earlier this month. Guerrero says he'd like to play in the Major Leagues again.

"I grew up with the Montreal Expos and played there for almost 10 years," Guerrero said in a statement. "The fans [in Quebec] are my friends. However, my ultimate goal is to make it back to the major leagues and attempt to reach 500 home runs as soon as possible."

He's not what he used to be. At his peak, he was the best player in baseball in the eyes of many, and I think he could help a club needing an extra bat (as the Sox do now). Were I in Rick Hahn's shoes, I'd contact his people and see if something can be worked out.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2013, 02:56 PM
RK:

That's an interesting perspective.

Lip

RKMeibalane
04-23-2013, 02:56 PM
Who would be the replacement? You are better off seeing if he can get out of the funk. It's not like they have anything in the wings that would do much better.He should move him down in the order until he shows he is a major league hitter.

See my previous post. There is an experienced Major League hitter out in the world who could help the Sox today if they reached out to him. He's a future HOF'er, and could easily fill in as the DH if Dunn can't get it going.

RKMeibalane
04-23-2013, 03:05 PM
RK:

That's an interesting perspective.

Lip

I think he's worth the risk. I'm biased because I happen to be a fan of his, but having just reviewed his numbers, he's never hit less than .290 over the course of a full season, and even if the best he can provide is production similar to his numbers in 2011, that still represents offense far superior to anything Dunn is giving the Sox at the moment. I'll take a near-.300 batting average.

The only concerns I would have about Vlad would be his contract demands (he wants to play long enough to reach five hundred home runs), as well as his ability to play the field. I would imagine his throwing arm is still above average, but I doubt if he has the range necessary to play either corner position, even on a limited basis. The Sox have too many slow-footed 1B/LF/DH types on their roster as it is, something that has been a problem dating back to when Frank Thomas and Carlos Lee were with the team.

doublem23
04-23-2013, 03:11 PM
He's not what he used to be. At his peak, he was the best player in baseball in the eyes of many, and I think he could help a club needing an extra bat (as the Sox do now). Were I in Rick Hahn's shoes, I'd contact his people and see if something can be worked out.

http://media.tumblr.com/a2b00fadba844f9890efdab45508ee71/tumblr_inline_mkhaceM4bg1qz4rgp.gif

I see I'm going to burning through this GIF this season

Noneck
04-23-2013, 03:11 PM
Who would be the replacement?


I'd give Carlos Zambrano a whirl. Not a bad switch hitter, would shake up the clubhouse and might bring fans to the park just to see what he may do. Its a squirrelly idea but with whats going on now, what the hay.

RKMeibalane
04-23-2013, 03:13 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/a2b00fadba844f9890efdab45508ee71/tumblr_inline_mkhaceM4bg1qz4rgp.gif

I see I'm going to burning through this GIF this season

Why are you opposed to the idea, beyond the concerns I outlined about salary and his limited range in the OF.

dickallen15
04-23-2013, 03:14 PM
I think he's worth the risk. I'm biased because I happen to be a fan of his, but having just reviewed his numbers, he's never hit less than .290 over the course of a full season, and even if the best he can provide is production similar to his numbers in 2011, that still represents offense far superior to anything Dunn is giving the Sox at the moment. I'll take a near-.300 batting average.

The only concerns I would have about Vlad would be his contract demands (he wants to play long enough to reach five hundred home runs), as well as his ability to play the field. I would imagine his throwing arm is still above average, but I doubt if he has the range necessary to play either corner position, even on a limited basis. The Sox have too many slow-footed 1B/LF/DH types on their roster as it is, something that has been a problem dating back to when Frank Thomas and Carlos Lee were with the team.

He can't play the field. His power is zapped. He has no speed. His .317 OBP his last season is only .012 higher than Dunn's during Dunn's White Sox career. It's far better to see if Adam can turn it around. Vlad is done or someone would have picked him up last year. Dunn could be Done, but the Sox need to play him to see if he can turn things around. There is no way he's is as bad as he's been thus far.

doublem23
04-23-2013, 03:18 PM
Why are you opposed to the idea, beyond the concerns I outlined about salary and his limited range in the OF.

Because he was ****ing terrible in 2011 and I'm going to bet that being out of baseball for a year and now playing for the what? Long Island Ducks? Doesn't prepare one to come back to the Majors.

Jerko
04-23-2013, 03:38 PM
We're really worried that the Sox can't find someone to replace a .100 hitter whose power is useless if he can't hit the ball? The longer Dunn gets trotted out there, the better chance of fans feeling like the team has given up. Even if his replacement IS JUST AS BAD..........it's not Dunn. That might be the main thing at this point, sad to say. Fans are fast approaching "ABD" mode (anybody but Dunn). I cringe when I see him in the lineup, let alone at the plate. I haven't looked so forward to a name being left off the lineup card since Julio Ramirez

TheVulture
04-23-2013, 03:55 PM
See my previous post. There is an experienced Major League hitter out in the world who could help the Sox today if they reached out to him. He's a future HOF'er, and could easily fill in as the DH if Dunn can't get it going.

Carlos Zambrano could easily out hit Dunn and he's a free agent.

TomBradley72
04-23-2013, 03:59 PM
Who would be the replacement? You are better off seeing if he can get out of the funk. It's not like they have anything in the wings that would do much better.He should move him down in the order until he shows he is a major league hitter.

ANYONE would be an improvement.

In the 13 months of regular season play while Dunn has been with the Sox- he's had 2 months where he hit .230+ (April/May- 2012), 2 where he hit between .200 and .211, and 9 months <.200, and he is currently hitting less than the aggregation of NL pitchers.

The last time Dunn hit >.235 in a month was July, 2010.

IT IS NOT A FUNK- ITS A MULTI-YEAR TREND.

He is an epic disaster of a signing- and there is zero evidence that he can will come out of this.

SI1020
04-23-2013, 03:59 PM
With all due respect to RKM, this is like signing the Alomar brothers, Ken Griffey Jr. and Manny Ramirez all over again. The suggestion of signing Vlad just reminds me how stuck in the mud this franchise is right now. They just don't have a hell of a lot of options out there.

Stanley
04-23-2013, 04:01 PM
Of course Robin has the "power" to bench Dunn, or do pretty much anything else he wants with the lineup. He is the manager, no one else is. What it comes down to is Robin's (or his yes-men) resistance/ignorance towards sabermetrics and how badly he wants to avoid conflict with his Boss's, and possibly getting canned.

TheVulture
04-23-2013, 04:02 PM
With all due respect to RKM, this is like signing the Alomar brothers, Ken Griffey Jr. and Manny Ramirez all over again. The suggestion of signing Vlad just reminds me how stuck in the mud this franchise is right now. They just don't have a hell of a lot of options out there.

Ramirez put up a .420 OBP with the Sox. Ramirez was gold compared Dunn.

SI1020
04-23-2013, 04:02 PM
ANYONE would be an improvement.

In the 13 months of regular season play while Dunn has been with the Sox- he's had 2 months where he hit .230+ (April/May- 2012), 2 where he hit between .200 and .211, and 9 months <.200, and he is currently hitting less than the aggregation of NL pitchers.

The last time Dunn hit >.235 in a month was July, 2010.

IT IS NOT A FUNK- ITS A MULTI-YEAR TREND.

He is an epic disaster of a signing- and there is zero evidence that he can will come out of this. Amen. That says it all. Enough is enough. .

TheVulture
04-23-2013, 04:03 PM
Of course Robin has the "power" to bench Dunn, or do pretty much anything else he wants with the lineup. What it comes down to is Robin's (or his yes-men) resistance/ignorance towards sabermetrics and how badly he wants to avoid conflict with his Boss's.

That's funny, I thought the only defense of Dunn was sabermetric. It was certainly the sabermetric types who defended him when people were arguing signing Dunn was a bad move.

SI1020
04-23-2013, 04:08 PM
Ramirez put up a .420 OBP with the Sox. Ramirez was gold compared Dunn. I'm not going to defend Dunn, but Ramirez had a total of 17 more ABs in the majors after leaving the Sox. He did nothing much for them, no matter what his OBP was.

Stanley
04-23-2013, 04:08 PM
That's funny, I thought the only defense of Dunn was sabermetric. It was certainly the sabermetric types who defended him when people were arguing signing Dunn was a bad move.

Point is, there is nothing remotely sabermetric about hitting Adam Dunn 4th in any lineup, nor is there anything sabermetric about *Manto and others* telling Dunn to walk LESS. Walks are a huge part of Dunn's game, and now he is nothing more than a 1 true outcome guy.

*my opinion*

TheVulture
04-23-2013, 04:11 PM
Point is, there is nothing remotely sabermetric about hitting Adam Dunn 4th in any lineup, nor is there anything sabermetric about *Manto and others* telling Dunn to walk LESS. Walks are a huge part of Dunn's game, and now he is nothing more than a 1 true outcome guy.

*my opinion*
Well, yeah, at this point there is really no argument that supports Dunn. I'm of the opinion the Sox should just release him, eat his salary and fill roster spot with a minimum salary guy until his contract expires personally.

TheVulture
04-23-2013, 04:12 PM
I'm not going to defend Dunn, but Ramirez had a total of 17 more ABs in the majors after leaving the Sox. He did nothing much for them, no matter what his OBP was.

What's that have to do with what he did with the Sox? I'm no sabermetric guy, but I don't see how you can claim a guy who got on base 42% of the time didn't contribute.

SI1020
04-23-2013, 05:50 PM
What's that have to do with what he did with the Sox? I'm no sabermetric guy, but I don't see how you can claim a guy who got on base 42% of the time didn't contribute. OK I'll try, although it really is a minor matter. RKM suggested that we give Vlad Guerrero a shot to work his way back to the team. I stated that to me it was like revisiting the signings of the Alomars, Griffey Jr. and Manny Ramirez. All productive players past their prime and not worth it IMO. There is nothing Manny did in his short time with the Sox to impress me and he was gone from MLB the next year. If you think a .420 OBP in 88 PA was worth it I don't. Not worth having a fight over.

eastchicagosoxfan
04-23-2013, 07:19 PM
ANYONE would be an improvement.

In the 13 months of regular season play while Dunn has been with the Sox- he's had 2 months where he hit .230+ (April/May- 2012), 2 where he hit between .200 and .211, and 9 months <.200, and he is currently hitting less than the aggregation of NL pitchers.

The last time Dunn hit >.235 in a month was July, 2010.

IT IS NOT A FUNK- ITS A MULTI-YEAR TREND.

He is an epic disaster of a signing- and there is zero evidence that he can will come out of this.

Exactly! anyone that hits .250 will hit 150 points better than Dunn.

SCCWS
04-23-2013, 07:35 PM
Maybe a couple of the starting pitchers could hit better than Dunn. I am damn sure Robin could be made playing manager and he could hit at least .200. Harold Baines could still hit .200

shingo10
04-23-2013, 09:09 PM
Because he was ****ing terrible in 2011 and I'm going to bet that being out of baseball for a year and now playing for the what? Long Island Ducks? Doesn't prepare one to come back to the Majors.


This made me laugh.

I remember the cold streaks Vlad would go on even in his prime...very Dunn like. He was also an awesome talent to watch when he had it going but at this point those days are probably long gone.

Has Jim Thome officially retired yet?

Noneck
04-23-2013, 09:13 PM
Has Jim Thome officially retired yet?

The last I heard hes sitting at home with his hand on the receiver.

CoopaLoop
04-23-2013, 09:24 PM
Let's start with putting Dunn's name 7th.

Golden Sox
04-23-2013, 10:36 PM
I was just thinking that if things continue to get bad and the White Sox keep losing, will we have a new manager replace Ventura by the name of Ozzie Guillen? Years ago the Yankees kept bringing back Billy Martin. And considering the relationship Guillen has had with Reinsdorf, I wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie came back here. Ken Williams is no longer the GM and I was under the impression Hahn and Ozzie like each other. This has been a dead White Sox team and they need something to shake them up. Ozzie might be the man to do it.

GlassSox
04-23-2013, 10:56 PM
I was just thinking that if things continue to get bad and the White Sox keep losing, will we have a new manager replace Ventura by the name of Ozzie Guillen? Years ago the Yankees kept bringing back Billy Martin. And considering the relationship Guillen has had with Reinsdorf, I wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie came back here. Ken Williams is no longer the GM and I was under the impression Hahn and Ozzie like each other. This has been a dead White Sox team and they need something to shake them up. Ozzie might be the man to do it.

Oh my God no, we need to move forward!

amsteel
04-23-2013, 11:09 PM
I was just thinking that if things continue to get bad and the White Sox keep losing, will we have a new manager replace Ventura by the name of Ozzie Guillen? Years ago the Yankees kept bringing back Billy Martin. And considering the relationship Guillen has had with Reinsdorf, I wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie came back here. Ken Williams is no longer the GM and I was under the impression Hahn and Ozzie like each other. This has been a dead White Sox team and they need something to shake them up. Ozzie might be the man to do it.

I don't think it's out of the question, but not for at least a few more years.

Milw
04-24-2013, 12:31 AM
I was just thinking that if things continue to get bad and the White Sox keep losing, will we have a new manager replace Ventura by the name of Ozzie Guillen? Years ago the Yankees kept bringing back Billy Martin. And considering the relationship Guillen has had with Reinsdorf, I wouldn't be surprised if Ozzie came back here. Ken Williams is no longer the GM and I was under the impression Hahn and Ozzie like each other. This has been a dead White Sox team and they need something to shake them up. Ozzie might be the man to do it.

What the... What? No. What the hell, guys.

Defending Adam Dunn? Proposing the signing of Vlad Guerrero?? Suggesting we bring back Ozzie???

Holy hell. Everybody here is off their rocker. Good lord we need some wins before this fan base goes completely off the deep end.

TDog
04-24-2013, 01:24 AM
As if anyone here has the knowledge to answer this question.
...


That my first response.

The assumption would be that Ventura or any manager would have the power not to start Dunn in the field or as the DH and using him as a pinch hitter. I don't know if that amounts to benching him. With Beckham out and Viciedo out, that might be impractical.

If Beckham were in the lineup at second, you could use the DH to get both Gillaspie and Keppinger in the lineup. You could use the DH to give Konerko the day off without being stuck with Dunn's defense at first. You could have Viciedo in the lineup without having to worry about his defense in left. Really, I think the White Sox would have a better offense without a fulltime DH. All of those options would provide a better offensive lineup. At the start of the season there were better options than Dunn for the DH role, but there was also the hope that he wasn't going to be the black hole on offense that he was last season and the season before that.

I'm not sure what consequences there would be if Dunn were to become a full-time pinch-hitter instead of a full-time DH, where he hurts the team the least as a starter. Not starting Dunn wouldn't hurt the Sox offensively. Fans seem fed up with seeing him in the lineup, so it couldn't alienate the fanbase. You would be playing one roster spot short, but on the upside, you wouldn't have Dunn in the lineup. I can't imagine it would decrease Dunn's trade value because I can't imagine that such would be possible.

And I'm not sure it would be such as bad thing if Dunn demanded a trade. Unless the rules have changed, if Dunn demanded a trade, and the Sox couldn't accomodate him, he would have the option of abadnoning his contract and becoming a free agent. I can't imagine he would have grounds for grievance if he where benched. If you're hitting less than .220, which has been Dunn's history with the Sox except for a couple of months in 2012, you really can't complain about being benched.

TheVulture
04-24-2013, 02:21 AM
If you think a .420 OBP in 88 PA was worth it I don't. Not worth having a fight over.

The Sox didn't give anything up to acquire him, and he took at bats away from Mark Kotsay and whoever else wasn't good enough to take at bats away from Mark Kotsay. I don't see the problem with the move then or now, that's all.

FoulTerritory
04-24-2013, 09:41 AM
Because he was ****ing terrible in 2011 and I'm going to bet that being out of baseball for a year and now playing for the what? Long Island Ducks? Doesn't prepare one to come back to the Majors.

With Dunn in the lineup we currently, basically, have a pitcher hitting cleanup. Vlad can't be worse. Its over for Dunn.

russ99
04-24-2013, 09:54 AM
What the... What? No. What the hell, guys.

Defending Adam Dunn? Proposing the signing of Vlad Guerrero?? Suggesting we bring back Ozzie???

Holy hell. Everybody here is off their rocker. Good lord we need some wins before this fan base goes completely off the deep end.

POTW!! :gulp:

Nothing is worse than a rainout after a 4 game losing streak - it lets everyone stew just that little bit longer.

Not sure what we can do about Dunn, even during his hot streak, I couldn't see anyone dealing for him due to salary as much as performance.

We're only stuck with him until the end of next season, and if he can get back to his usual level of walks and homers, it would suck but not be the end of the world to keep him. Otherwise the Sox need to eat $25-28M to pay a player not to play for them, which just ain't Jerry's style.

I just don't see what moving guys up and down the order will really accomplish - we have too many poor hitters to hide a guy lower in the order. Having so many "homer or nothing" hitters is an organizational decision.

Tragg
04-24-2013, 10:09 AM
I was just thinking that if things continue to get bad and the White Sox keep losing, will we have a new manager replace Ventura by the name of Ozzie Guillen?

Good gracious. His ridiculous offensive philosophies and utter inability to judge talent are what started this mess.

WisSoxFan
04-24-2013, 10:49 AM
POTW!! :gulp:

Nothing is worse than a rainout after a 4 game losing streak

Beg to differ - a five game losing streak would be worse. :tongue:

russ99
04-24-2013, 01:45 PM
Good gracious. His ridiculous offensive philosophies and utter inability to judge talent are what started this mess.

LOL - Ozzie didn't sign or trade for any of our players, and he's been gone for almost two years now.

And those ridiculous offensive philosophies helped win us a title.

Where's your "homer or nothing" now?

amsteel
04-24-2013, 02:19 PM
Has Jim Thome officially retired yet?

Hawk just said Thome was in the clubhouse today...So I'm gonna go ahead and read way more into it than it being a simple friendly visit.

Tragg
04-24-2013, 04:28 PM
Hawk just said Thome was in the clubhouse today...So I'm gonna go ahead and read way more into it than it being a simple friendly visit.

:thumbsup:

Hell yea.

SI1020
04-24-2013, 05:07 PM
The Sox didn't give anything up to acquire him, and he took at bats away from Mark Kotsay and whoever else wasn't good enough to take at bats away from Mark Kotsay. I don't see the problem with the move then or now, that's all. OK. Can't argue with that. The Sox made no long term investment in him.

doublem23
04-24-2013, 05:09 PM
With Dunn in the lineup we currently, basically, have a pitcher hitting cleanup. Vlad can't be worse. Its over for Dunn.

People are just going to have to live with the reality the Sox aren't going to eat the $25 or so million left that they owe Dunn. Adding more washed up veterans who don't belong in the Majors isn't going to solve any problems, especially when you consider the Sox's 40-man roster is currently full.

FoulTerritory
04-24-2013, 08:42 PM
People are just going to have to live with the reality the Sox aren't going to eat the $25 or so million left that they owe Dunn. Adding more washed up veterans who don't belong in the Majors isn't going to solve any problems, especially when you consider the Sox's 40-man roster is currently full.


Everything you said is probably correct; however, I don't care the cost, I just don't want to see Dunn in our lineup anymore, really, ever again. It's unbearable. I'd rather pay him 25 million to go away than 25 million to ruin the offense.

Its just so hard to watch and enjoy the games knowing he is going to come up and strike out or hit into the shift time after time after time.

34rancher
04-24-2013, 10:44 PM
Carlos Zambrano could easily out hit Dunn and he's a free agent.

Hey there's a word that can associate these two. I'll give you a hint, one has hole and the other jack associated with them.

In all seriousness, who on earth would sign the mentally imbalanced brain of Z? No thanks.

doublem23
04-24-2013, 11:07 PM
Everything you said is probably correct; however, I don't care the cost, I just don't want to see Dunn in our lineup anymore, really, ever again. It's unbearable. I'd rather pay him 25 million to go away than 25 million to ruin the offense.


Just mail the check to:

Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, Illinois

FoulTerritory
04-25-2013, 09:30 AM
Just mail the check to:

Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, Illinois


Let me rephrase:

I think that they would be wiser to pay Dunn 25 mil to go away rather than pay him 25 mil to ruin the offense. :)

I understand that its their decision and their money, but as a fan, I reserve the right to pass judgement on how they spend their money because, frankly, I spend a crap load of money on their team.

RKMeibalane
04-28-2013, 07:35 PM
Because he was ****ing terrible in 2011 and I'm going to bet that being out of baseball for a year and now playing for the what? Long Island Ducks? Doesn't prepare one to come back to the Majors.

I'll grant that his best days are far, far behind him, but .290/13/63 is ****ing terrible? How would you have described Dunn's line from that season? Also, why do you always get angry with someone who suggests something you don't agree with?