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View Full Version : *Official* 4-21 Bullpen, Offense Betray Floyd; MIN 5 SOX 3 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
04-21-2013, 04:09 PM
Flame away

At least it looks like I'll have plenty of time to write this summer.

amsteel
04-21-2013, 04:09 PM
****ing joke letting Dunn bat in the 9th, again.

Corlose 15
04-21-2013, 04:11 PM
Pretty meek 9th inning from your 3-4-5 hitters.

shingo10
04-21-2013, 04:14 PM
When the bullpen turned south in 2007...well we all know how that turned out.

4 games under was our low point last season and it was in May so I'll cling to some hope that we can turn it around. Somehow.

BainesHOF
04-21-2013, 04:14 PM
Yet another boring game. This team has no sense of urgency about anything. It's like it's resigned to its fate.

Bucky F. Dent
04-21-2013, 04:18 PM
We Stink!

Tragg
04-21-2013, 04:18 PM
Bad hitting.
Bad defense
Good pitching, except for that one pitch Crain threw to Willingham.

Dan H
04-21-2013, 04:19 PM
Pretty meek 9th inning from your 3-4-5 hitters.

You are right about that. That was way too easy for the Twins closer. There was no suspense after the Twins went ahead. And I don't care about the homer. Dunn just isn't a major league hitter.

Tragg
04-21-2013, 04:29 PM
When the bullpen turned south in 2007...well we all know how that turned out.


That's the one barrier between this team and 2007: I don't see us stooping to the likes of Day, Bukvich and Myers (a 40 year old whom we inexplicably let pitch all September) not to mention MacDougal and his 2.0 WHIP.
On the other hand, that team had excellent years from Thome and Konerko..without which it would have won 60 games.

SoxSpeed22
04-21-2013, 04:36 PM
2007 was also (arguably) the best year Bobby Jenks had. I think this is shaping up to be more like the beginning of 2009 where you know there are obvious holes, but they still get some things right.

Falstaff
04-21-2013, 05:06 PM
2007 was also (arguably) the best year Bobby Jenks had. I think this is shaping up to be more like the beginning of 2009 where you know there are obvious holes, but they still get some things right.
Agreed. As pathetic as '13 team has (mostly) looked, its still early and some reasons to think we can finish strong, perhaps win the division by 1 game on the last day kind of thing. Beckham had it going on until injury; he'll be back.
If/when John Danks returns to rotation, he will be somewhat fresh since he has not been putting in the innings for a couple years now. Gillaspie has been a real pick up, and expect Flowers to gradually improve at the plate. Konerko is showing signs of returning to his normal production. And somehow, Dunn won't be in the everyday lineup anymore. So what the hell it's baseball. As me again in 2 months.

russ99
04-21-2013, 05:20 PM
Maybe when we see some warmer weather, the bats will heat up...

That's pretty much the only thing positive to cling to right now... :(:

SCCWS
04-21-2013, 05:26 PM
Maybe when we see some warmer weather, the bats will heat up...

That's pretty much the only thing positive to cling to right now... :(:

Do you think maybe the opponents bats will also heat up as well???

TDog
04-21-2013, 05:26 PM
****ing joke letting Dunn bat in the 9th, again.

No bigger a joke than letting him come up in the second, or, for that matter 2013, 2012 or 2011. It does no good having a left-handed bat in the lineup if his inability to hit righties is only exceeded by his inability to hit lefties. Really, if you were going to pinch-hit for Dunn, you should have done it in the fourth when he came up with two on and one out. If he hits it on the ground, it's a double play. Ventura started the runners t stay out of the double play and the strike out resulted in a double play.

Unfortunately, the White Sox don't have enough offense working to make up for a DH barely hitting .100 in the lineup, not if the other team is playing with a DH. Everyone but Konerko and Keppinger struck out at least once today, and it felt like more than 10 White Sox strikouts. Ultimately, hitting is about making contact, it's about putting the ball in play. Today, 20 Sox hitters put the ball in play, if you include the solo home run, and 10 failed to. The fact that it seems part of a trend is what makes it feel so unacceptable.

There were a few good things in the offense today. Twice Keppinger, who didn't strike out, got a runner in from third base and less than two outs to give the Sox the lead. Twice the Sox took advantage of mistakes, considering that De Aza earned his way on but got to third with the help of mistakes by the pitcher. That could have been enough to win.

But ultimately, what killed the Sox today was relief pitcher once again coming out of the bullpen unable to throw strikes. It was a problem Saturday. Really, it's been a bit of a problem all year, but the Sox have often been able to pitch out of jams, especially during the first homestand. And I really don't know what the problem is. They say that when a pitcher comes out of the bullpen, no matter who he is, you're never quite sure what he's got with his stuff and control. Sox relievers lately have been the antithesis of Dennis Eckersley with the A's in that you can count on them getting behind and walking hitters.

Put runners on base, start working with a smaller strike zone and hitters who put the ball in play will eventually drive in runs. And lose close games.

Maybe it's a mental thing. Reed came in and three nine strikes in retiring three hitters on nine pitches, perhaps seeing what the previous relievers were doing wrong. Maybe it's the cold weather.

I really hope it's the cole weather.

Lip Man 1
04-21-2013, 05:41 PM
Another day, another putrid offensive performance, another loss.

I know, I know, the bullpen blew it in the 7th inning but when the offense continues to score three runs or less, you put tremendous pressure on a pitching staff to be letter perfect, and that's not possible. The Sox offense is giving the pitching staff no room for error. None, nada, nyet.

10 more strikeouts today...five lousy hits.

That's nine losses in the last 12 games.

For the season the Sox have now scored three runs or less in 50% (9 of 18) of their games.

For the season the Sox are now 17-100 with RISP (.170 worst in the A.L.)

The only solace I can find is what the guy in the Sun-Times wrote this morning (paraphrasing) "It's hard to judge the Sox right now because they've played half their games in football weather..."

But honestly I don't see this bunch getting any better (or much better) even when the temperature hits 95.

Lip

Chez
04-21-2013, 05:43 PM
The bullpen has been reliable all year; but not this weekend. Aaron Hicks (whose average at the time was .048) got the hit in the 7th to tie the game. Having Rios run into a strike-em-out/throw-em-out double-play AT THIRD in the 4th inning was weird.

Things will get better. Hopefully very soon.

Tragg
04-21-2013, 06:16 PM
The bullpen gave up one hard hit ball...that's when Crain threw a softball as his first pitch to Willingham.
Lindstrom walked one, who scored because of the Sox lack of defense: passed ball and poor right side defensive range.
Yea, they shouldn't walk anyone, but things are so precarious now that we demand perfection from them, which isn't realistic.

tstrike2000
04-21-2013, 06:33 PM
Good to hang out at the game with tebman, son of tebman and JB98. Aside from that, and a decent game from Floyd, pretty much a boring, uneventlful loss. This offense is awful while the defense has mostly been awful. Besides his homer, Dunn continued to be completely worthless. When Lindstrom walked the leadoff guy in the 7th, it felt like it was going to be over from that point.

fram40
04-21-2013, 06:34 PM
The bullpen gave up one hard hit ball...that's when Crain threw a softball as his first pitch to Willingham.
Lindstrom walked one, who scored because of the Sox lack of defense: passed ball and poor right side defensive range.
Yea, they shouldn't walk anyone, but things are so precarious now that we demand perfection from them, which isn't realistic.

The bullpen also walked two guys in that inning- the leadoff man and our supposed loogie walked his only batter, AGAIN.

Let's not forget their first run was forced in on a bases loaded walk.

I am not looking for perfection. But I would like to see team that at least makes the other team earn a victory.

These two games this weekend remind me of the worst games vs this team under OG. Just awful.

Brian26
04-21-2013, 06:37 PM
****ing joke letting Dunn bat in the 9th, again.

It was amazing to see everyone get up and head for the exits in the 9th after Konerko popped out and Dunn was announced. Mass exodus.

tebman
04-21-2013, 07:54 PM
Good to hang out at the game with tebman, son of tebman and JB98. Aside from that, and a decent game from Floyd, pretty much a boring, uneventlful loss. This offense is awful while the defense has mostly been awful. Besides his homer, Dunn continued to be completely worthless. When Lindstrom walked the leadoff guy in the 7th, it felt like it was going to be over from that point.

The single redeeming feature of being at this tedious game was enjoying good conversation and laughs with tstrike2000 and JB98. Fortunately, son-of-tebman kept me from doing anything rash as we saw the Sox sleepwalk through the game.

I don't know...maybe this team is better suited for lawn darts. That's something that might be a better match with their temperment.

JB98
04-21-2013, 08:01 PM
Good to hang out at the game with tebman, son of tebman and JB98. Aside from that, and a decent game from Floyd, pretty much a boring, uneventlful loss. This offense is awful while the defense has mostly been awful. Besides his homer, Dunn continued to be completely worthless. When Lindstrom walked the leadoff guy in the 7th, it felt like it was going to be over from that point.

The single redeeming feature of being at this tedious game was enjoying good conversation and laughs with tstrike2000 and JB98. Fortunately, son-of-tebman kept me from doing anything rash as we saw the Sox sleepwalk through the game.

I don't know...maybe this team is better suited for lawn darts. That's something that might be a better match with their temperment.

Good to spend the afternoon at the ballpark with you guys, despite the uninspired performance by the home team.

One additional comment about the game that hasn't been mentioned yet: I'm a little bit concerned about Donnie Veal. Yeah, it's early, but left-handed hitters have a .500 OBP against him. His role on this team is to come in and get lefties out in tight situations. From our vantage point, it didn't seem like any of the four pitches he threw to Mauer were anywhere close.

Veal's inability to retire Mauer obviously extended the inning, and then Crain served up a first-pitch meatball to Willingham. I think we can all agree the game was over the second the ball left Willingham's bat. The way the Sox are playing right now, a three-run deficit in the seventh is insurmountable. Too many holes in that lineup.

This team really misses Beckham defensively, too.

ChiSoxGirl
04-21-2013, 08:13 PM
Good to hang out at the game with tebman, son of tebman and JB98. Aside from that, and a decent game from Floyd, pretty much a boring, uneventlful loss. This offense is awful while the defense has mostly been awful. Besides his homer, Dunn continued to be completely worthless. When Lindstrom walked the leadoff guy in the 7th, it felt like it was going to be over from that point.

The single redeeming feature of being at this tedious game was enjoying good conversation and laughs with tstrike2000 and JB98. Fortunately, son-of-tebman kept me from doing anything rash as we saw the Sox sleepwalk through the game.

I don't know...maybe this team is better suited for lawn darts. That's something that might be a better match with their temperment.

Good to spend the afternoon at the ballpark with you guys, despite the uninspired performance by the home team.

One additional comment about the game that hasn't been mentioned yet: I'm a little bit concerned about Donnie Veal. Yeah, it's early, but left-handed hitters have a .500 OBP against him. His role on this team is to come in and get lefties out in tight situations. From our vantage point, it didn't seem like any of the four pitches he threw to Mauer were anywhere close.

Veal's inability to retire Mauer obviously extended the inning, and then Crain served up a first-pitch meatball to Willingham. I think we can all agree the game was over the second the ball left Willingham's bat. The way the Sox are playing right now, a three-run deficit in the seventh is insurmountable. Too many holes in that lineup.

This team really misses Beckham defensively, too.

I missed all of you! I was really bummed that I couldn't go to the game today, despite the outcome. Hopefully, you didn't have too much fun without me.

vinny
04-21-2013, 08:20 PM
I'm sorry I took my son away from the fundamentals deck to watch the 7th, 8th, and 9th. His hitting and fielding were much more entertaining. At least he got to run the bases afterward.

Watching Gavin implode in the 6th was no fun with a 4-pitch walk to Mauer and a 5-pitch walk to Morneau, but Lindstrom didn't have anything working at all. And Veal is having much more success this season against righties than lefties.

Leave it to Dunn to hit a meaningless homer after the battle was lost. I was surprised I didn't hear more boos for him, it's almost as if the fans are more embarrassed for him than anything.

Soxman219
04-21-2013, 08:53 PM
Well, this weekend sucked.

amsteel
04-21-2013, 09:23 PM
Well, this weekend sucked.

Probably wanna keep that post in your pocket, might have to use it a lot this year.

TheVulture
04-21-2013, 09:45 PM
****ing joke letting Dunn bat in the 9th, again.

If he shouldn't be batting in the 9th, and I don't disagree, he certainly shouldn't be batting in the middle of the lineup either.

amsteel
04-21-2013, 10:00 PM
#261 & #262 (out of 262) in WAR in the AL? Keppinger and Dunn.

doublem23
04-22-2013, 07:54 AM
What is the all time record for combined losses for both the Sox and Cubs in a season? Because it has to be in serious jeopardy.

BTW, if I did my math right, they're currently on pace for 212.

Foulke You
04-22-2013, 10:48 AM
I think this is shaping up to be more like the beginning of 2009 where you know there are obvious holes, but they still get some things right.
I agree. This team will not bottom out like the 2007 bunch. I see the 2009 similarities a lot more. The '09 bunch had solid pitching but holes in the lineup as well as the defense. They struggled to hit most of the year with RISP, climbed themselves back into the division hunt during the summer, but never could get over the hump. They ultimately were sunk by a disaster road trip in early September and finished a few games under .500. This year's Sox team has hit about as poor as you can possibly hit. They are built around HRs and many of these are dying out at the warning track and getting knocked down by the wind. In the last four or five games, I've seen a bunch of Sox hitters take the ball deep to the track only to have the cold and wind knock it down. Things will improve on offense with the weather, but we need big turnarounds by Dunn and Keppinger as well as healthy returns of Beckham, Danks, and Tank if we are to have a shot.

guillensdisciple
04-22-2013, 10:55 AM
Can we also agree that right now is not the time for Robin Ventura to be coaching. He should have started out in the minors, because he makes some weird decisions sometimes. Like the guy, and he has shown flashes of having potential. but now is not his time. Especially with the White Sox going through a transition.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-22-2013, 11:51 AM
This team really misses Beckham defensively, too.

Noticed that. We were in fabulous seats and when Keppinger didn't even try for one to his right and later one to his left, we were looking at each other saying, Beckham would maybe have got that, right? Or at least made the effort? Sigh.

I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's not as big a deal as Dunn looking so mind-blowingly bad at hitting a baseball. And Keppinger got the job done at the plate. But in close games -- and there've been a bunch of those so far -- the defense looms large.

FielderJones
04-22-2013, 12:42 PM
Can we also agree that right now is not the time for Robin Ventura to be coaching. He should have started out in the minors, because he makes some weird decisions sometimes. Like the guy, and he has shown flashes of having potential. but now is not his time. Especially with the White Sox going through a transition.

The guy damn near makes the playoffs in his first year of managing, and now is not the time? Okay, then. :nuts:

TDog
04-22-2013, 12:58 PM
Noticed that. We were in fabulous seats and when Keppinger didn't even try for one to his right and later one to his left, we were looking at each other saying, Beckham would maybe have got that, right? Or at least made the effort? Sigh.

I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's not as big a deal as Dunn looking so mind-blowingly bad at hitting a baseball. And Keppinger got the job done at the plate. But in close games -- and there've been a bunch of those so far -- the defense looms large.


I posted during the road trip that the Sox might be missing Beckham moe than most fans might believe. Beckham, in addition to his solid defense, got off to a good start offensively. It looked like he changed the angle of his bat in his stance, and it seemed to be making a difference. Keppinger has always been a good hitter, but his defense doesn't compare to Beckham's. This April, Keppinger hasn't been hitting nearly as well as anyone expected. And Gillaspie seems to be in a bit of an offensive funk. Replacing Beckham with Keppinger at second hasn't helped offensively or defensively.

If Beckham has stayed healthy, I expect the White Sox would be in first place right now, considering that no one is running away with the Central.

TDog
04-22-2013, 12:59 PM
Can we also agree that right now is not the time for Robin Ventura to be coaching. He should have started out in the minors, because he makes some weird decisions sometimes. Like the guy, and he has shown flashes of having potential. but now is not his time. Especially with the White Sox going through a transition.

No.

guillensdisciple
04-22-2013, 01:22 PM
The guy damn near makes the playoffs in his first year of managing, and now is not the time? Okay, then. :nuts:

No.

Ehh, first years with new coaches tend to go well. This year will be a greater indicator. I am not saying this is his fault, I just feel that I don't think this team will actually allow him to be as good of a manager as he might be. After all, we're not that good, and he might get canned because of that anyway.

amsteel
04-22-2013, 01:31 PM
The guy damn near makes the playoffs in his first year of managing, and now is not the time? Okay, then. :nuts:

Let it not go unnoticed that the Sox were the seventh best team in the league last year. Making the playoffs can be a sign of a middling team in a weak division just as much it can be the sign of a great team.

TDog
04-22-2013, 01:44 PM
Ehh, first years with new coaches tend to go well. This year will be a greater indicator. I am not saying this is his fault, I just feel that I don't think this team will actually allow him to be as good of a manager as he might be. After all, we're not that good, and he might get canned because of that anyway.

What you seem to be saying is that Robin Ventura would have been a better manager if he had spent last season gaining experience in Charlotte rather than gaining experience in a major league divisional race.

I don't know how you reached your conclusion that first-year success somehow doesn't seems to maen anything because it is a given. There are plenty of examples of first-year managers in baseball who have failed miserably. Deep into my childhood, Johnny Keane managed the Yankees to a sixth-place finish after replacing Yogi Berra, who lost the World Series in 1964, the Yankees having gone to the World Series pretty much all the time in those days. And Don Gutteridge didn't make me expect so much from first-year managers. Thinking through my life watching baseball, it just keeps going on. Seattle, for example, both for the Pilots and the Mariners, was an aweful place for first-year managers.

Certainly Ozzie Guillen wasn't a great first-year manager. His first years in Chicago and Miami didn't gain any disciples.

shingo10
04-22-2013, 02:19 PM
On the radio broadcast yesterday, Farmer and DJ said that an anonymous Twins source had told them that the Twins feel that if they are within a run or two against the White Sox they will win the game. They feel this way because they know the Sox will beat themselves.

Also they said the Twins weren't concerned about last year's record against the Sox because most of those games were blowouts..they think they just have to play them close.

What is irritating is that they are right.

pudge
04-22-2013, 02:20 PM
The guy damn near makes the playoffs in his first year of managing, and now is not the time? Okay, then. :nuts:

My biggest concern is not experience, it's that I don't really believe Robin wanted this. He was handed it, he's not hungry for it. I don't see a sense of urgency from him or his team. He let a healthy lead slip away and failed to make the playoffs last year, now his team looks DOA. I'm concerned and not that impressed.

doublem23
04-22-2013, 02:34 PM
Let it not go unnoticed that the Sox were the seventh best team in the league last year. Making the playoffs can be a sign of a middling team in a weak division just as much it can be the sign of a great team.

And let's also not pretend like you probably couldn't point to AT LEAST three games last September that Robin made a pretty, eh, shall we call it bizarre, managerial decision that could have cost the Sox? I'm not saying he was the sole problem with the crash and burn September the Sox had last year, but it's not like his moves weren't backfiring, either.

Guy was great from April to August. He went into a funk with everyone else.

TDog
04-22-2013, 02:41 PM
On the radio broadcast yesterday, Farmer and DJ said that an anonymous Twins source had told them that the Twins feel that if they are within a run or two against the White Sox they will win the game. They feel this way because they know the Sox will beat themselves.

Also they said the Twins weren't concerned about last year's record against the Sox because most of those games were blowouts..they think they just have to play them close.

What is irritating is that they are right.

That wasn't true in the first homestand or up through the first game in Washington. The belief may come from the fact that might come from last season when the Whtie Sox were among the league leaders in blown saves, many coming in the seventh and eighth. The inexperienced bullpen was close to the top in failing to hold leads, by numbers, but probably not percentage.

I don't think the dynamics of the bullpen are the same this year, although that didn't show up on Saturday or Sunday when relievers couldn't throw strikes.

jdm2662
04-22-2013, 03:06 PM
Out of the 14 wins last year vs the Twins, five of them were either one or two runs. In the last ten games in 2011, the Sox went 8-2 against the Twins. Four of those wins were one or two run games.

The current Sox team can't hit for ****. It doesn't matter who they play right now. The Twins can think what they want.

wilburaga
04-22-2013, 03:17 PM
Let's not forget we're dead last in the majors in taking walks, by a fair margin. We've taken 31 in 18 games. The next fewest is 38 shared by the Royals and Cubs (both of whom have played 1 fewer game than us). 10 teams have over twice as many walks as we.

Viciedo has 0 walks (16 Ks). Keppinger (what a disappointment!) has 0 walks (9 Ks). Dunn's stated intention to take fewer walks and increase his aggressiveness at the plate has yet to bear fruit, to say the least.

Let's face it, we've got a team of hackers, and the opposition knows it and is taking advantage.

amsteel
04-22-2013, 03:27 PM
Let's face it, we've got a team of hackers.

At least even though they're bad at baseball they can look forward to their future careers as IT technicians.

WhiteSox5187
04-22-2013, 07:36 PM
I agree. This team will not bottom out like the 2007 bunch. I see the 2009 similarities a lot more. The '09 bunch had solid pitching but holes in the lineup as well as the defense. They struggled to hit most of the year with RISP, climbed themselves back into the division hunt during the summer, but never could get over the hump. They ultimately were sunk by a disaster road trip in early September and finished a few games under .500. This year's Sox team has hit about as poor as you can possibly hit. They are built around HRs and many of these are dying out at the warning track and getting knocked down by the wind. In the last four or five games, I've seen a bunch of Sox hitters take the ball deep to the track only to have the cold and wind knock it down. Things will improve on offense with the weather, but we need big turnarounds by Dunn and Keppinger as well as healthy returns of Beckham, Danks, and Tank if we are to have a shot.

No they didn't, they had a rotation where Jose Contreras (who was coming of a torn achilles) was rushed back and Bartolo Colon (a guy who hadn't pitched more than 100 innings in four years) as their 4-5 starters. The 2009 team was doomed from the start because Kenny didn't bother to go out and add two starters.

WhiteSox5187
04-22-2013, 07:40 PM
And let's also not pretend like you probably couldn't point to AT LEAST three games last September that Robin made a pretty, eh, shall we call it bizarre, managerial decision that could have cost the Sox? I'm not saying he was the sole problem with the crash and burn September the Sox had last year, but it's not like his moves weren't backfiring, either.

Guy was great from April to August. He went into a funk with everyone else.

What happened in September of last year was that Robin's complete lack of experience coaching at any level of professional baseball started to show. I think he panicked a bit and started to over think things. I am not saying that the collapse was totally Robin's fault, but his inexperience contributed.

Robin has mad some questionable decisions but then again the bigger problem seems to be that the roster pretty much sucks.

SI1020
04-22-2013, 10:35 PM
Certainly Ozzie Guillen wasn't a great first-year manager. His first years in Chicago and Miami didn't gain any disciples. I should tread lightly here because I don't want to reopen some old wounds, but I thought Ozzie was OK as a manager in 04. The next 4 years after that too.

doublem23
04-22-2013, 10:39 PM
I should tread lightly here because I don't want to reopen some old wounds, but I thought Ozzie was OK as a manager in 04. The next 4 years after that too.

I agree, that '04 team gets forgotten, OBVIOUSLY, by their successors but I think they would have been very competitive late into the season if they didn't lose Frank and Magglio almost at the exact same time, IIRC.

I don't care how good your team is, you lose your #3 and #4 hitters for the season and that will do a lot of teams in.

IIRC, things really started to go downhill with Ozzie around the time his one son got fired from the video department (or whatever he was doing) for being an idiot on Twitter. That's I think the point I think at which Ozzie just lost his damn mind and never returned.