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View Full Version : Do the Sox need to shore up starting pitching?


cards press box
04-16-2013, 02:20 AM
Given the uncertain status of John Danks and the inconsistent performance of Gavin Floyd, I think that they may need to do just that. Hector Santiago is a good internal option and perhaps the Sox could give him some starts and see how it goes.

Another possibility is Ted Lilly (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lillyte01.shtml). The Dodgers and Lilly appear to be at a contentious impasse (http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgersnow/la-sp-dn-dodgers-ted-lilly-20130415,0,5205041.story) and perhaps the Dodgers are anxious to move him soon. Lilly has made two rehab starts and as was his right, Lilly initially refused to make a third. He recently changed his mind and will make another rehab start tomorrow. I do suspect that the Dodgers want to end this controversy and, to do that, they are going to have to deal him.

The situation reminds me of the Kevin Youkilis fiasco last year in Boston and perhaps the Sox may once again be the beneficiary of a team anxious to move an unhappy veteran who still has something left in the tank.

LITTLE NELL
04-16-2013, 07:02 AM
The whole organization needs to shore up.

Jurr
04-16-2013, 07:17 AM
The whole organization needs to shore up.

Amen.

DonnieDarko
04-16-2013, 07:54 AM
No. They just need a ****ing offense.

TomBradley72
04-16-2013, 07:54 AM
Move Santiago into the rotation- replacing Axelrod.

Quintana goes to the #3 slot, Floyd drops to #4, Santiago is #5.

If/when Danks comes back- he replaces Santiago- eventually/hopefully swaps slots with Quintana-

Floyd stays in rotation long enough to establish some trade value to a contender-

Hartman
04-16-2013, 08:20 AM
Any change has to include Floyd at this point. I have more confidence in Axelrod.

DonnieDarko
04-16-2013, 08:24 AM
Move Santiago into the rotation- replacing Axelrod.

Quintana goes to the #3 slot, Floyd drops to #4, Santiago is #5.

If/when Danks comes back- he replaces Santiago- eventually/hopefully swaps slots with Quintana-

Floyd stays in rotation long enough to establish some trade value to a contender-

I completely forgot that Axelrod was in the rotation.

So I agree with this post.

SI1020
04-16-2013, 08:46 AM
The whole organization needs to shore up. You got that right. We could be looking at some real lean years if they don't. As for the starting pitching, the consensus around here seemed to be that it would be strong. I found it very suspect.

LITTLE NELL
04-16-2013, 11:09 AM
You got that right. We could be looking at some real lean years if they don't. As for the starting pitching, the consensus around here seemed to be that it would be strong. I found it very suspect.

You are right, it could get real ugly for the next few years.

SoxNation05
04-16-2013, 12:36 PM
You are right, it could get real ugly for the next few years.

How do you figure? We have our ace locked up for 5+ years. Peavy has this year and the next. Danks should be full strength for 2013-2015. Quintana and Santiago are cheap and under team control. Throw in all the wild cards in the minors (Johnson, Snodgress, Riezno, Beck, etc.) and we will be fine.

Foulke You
04-16-2013, 12:44 PM
Move Santiago into the rotation- replacing Axelrod
I agree 100% with this. How many more scoreless innings does Hector need to put up before they put him in the rotation? Axelrod needs smoke and mirrors and pinpoint control just to limp through 5 innings. Hector has the big league stuff and is a more realistic long term rotation solution. He also is a left hander that can get right handers out with his screwball.

kittle42
04-16-2013, 01:15 PM
Yes. And the offense. And defense. And the manager.

SoxNation05
04-16-2013, 01:17 PM
Yes. And the offense. And defense. And the manager.

Wouldn't expect anything less than this marvelous post from you.

kittle42
04-16-2013, 01:19 PM
Wouldn't expect anything less than this marvelous post from you.

Me and apparently at least 10-15 other posters here. Read the threads. Feel free to point out where we are all wrong. Other posters have gone into great detail as to the issues surrounding these things in the postgame thread. I will not repeat here.

And thanks, I agree it is marvelous! Wasn't expecting that level of praise.

delben91
04-16-2013, 01:25 PM
Me and apparently at least 10-15 other posters here. Read the threads. Feel free to point out where we are all wrong. Other posters have gone into great detail as to the issues surrounding these things in the postgame thread. I will not repeat here.

And thanks, I agree it is marvelous! Wasn't expecting that level of praise.

I still don't understand the specific issues people have with Ventura. The team is fundamentally flawed. Firing Ventura would just be rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.

TomBradley72
04-16-2013, 01:26 PM
Wouldn't expect anything less than this marvelous post from you.

But he's right.

Last year we had solid defense, good pitching, good fundamental play & focus- with a frustrating offense.

This year- our offense sucks, we're towards the bottom on defense, and I've seen more lapses in fundamentals (can't get a bunt down, missing the cut off man, etc .) in 2 weeks than I saw for the entire 1st half in 2012.

JB98
04-16-2013, 01:29 PM
I still don't understand the specific issues people have with Ventura. The team is fundamentally flawed. Firing Ventura would just be rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.

I agree. Eighty-five wins with the 2012 roster was a pretty good managing job, IMO.

Would the team really be better if the Sox fired Ventura and replaced him with an "experienced" manager? I don't believe so. Same flawed roster, same problems.

Ventura got more out of this core group in 2012 than Guillen got out of them the previous three years. Maybe that's damning with faint praise, but I don't know what people expect.

TomBradley72
04-16-2013, 02:07 PM
I agree. Eighty-five wins with the 2012 roster was a pretty good managing job, IMO.

Would the team really be better if the Sox fired Ventura and replaced him with an "experienced" manager? I don't believe so. Same flawed roster, same problems.

Ventura got more out of this core group in 2012 than Guillen got out of them the previous three years. Maybe that's damning with faint praise, but I don't know what people expect.

I do hold Ventura accountable for the drop off in fundamentals/focus that is very noticable between 2012 & 2013- something is very different this year.

JB98
04-16-2013, 02:25 PM
I do hold Ventura accountable for the drop off in fundamentals/focus that is very noticable between 2012 & 2013- something is very different this year.

That's fair. We'll see if Ventura can fix it, or if it becomes a season-long trend.

I find myself wondering whether Sox players are taking their bad at-bats with them out to the field. That sort of mindset leads to poor defense.

Hitmen77
04-16-2013, 02:50 PM
The whole organization needs to shore up.

Bingo.

SoxNation05
04-16-2013, 03:35 PM
But he's right.

Last year we had solid defense, good pitching, good fundamental play & focus- with a frustrating offense.

This year- our offense sucks, we're towards the bottom on defense, and I've seen more lapses in fundamentals (can't get a bunt down, missing the cut off man, etc .) in 2 weeks than I saw for the entire 1st half in 2012.

We have played 13 games. We have been in every game but one. Our hitters are not getting the hits when they need to. It happens. We could just as easily be 7-6 right now. This site is the most impatient group of dark clouds.

Putting 2007 aside, we have been watching Floyd pitch for 5 years. You think the posters here would figure out that Floyd is inconsistent and streaky. Right now he is dealing with a rough stretch.

Our offense sucks every April. We just need to start hitting with RISP. Simple as that. Playing on the road and in April is not going to help but I don't know if we can expect what we have been given so far (IN 13 GAMES or 8.02% of the season).

Our defense has had some fluky games and Beckham has gotten hurt (not that Beckham's injury has affected our D).

Our bullpen has been great minus Jones and Thornton's bad inning hurts his ERA.

Our starting pitching hasn't been great. Sale had the worst start of his career but does that mean he's not going to be an ace this year? I don't think so. Peavy had one bad start where he looked good for the most part but was left in too long. Floyd has been Floyd. Quintana had one bad inning. Axelrod shouldn't even be in the rotation but he has had one good and one bad start each. If Axelrod sucks again tonight maybe Hector will get the shot he deserves.

SI1020
04-16-2013, 03:41 PM
But he's right.

Last year we had solid defense, good pitching, good fundamental play & focus- with a frustrating offense.

This year- our offense sucks, we're towards the bottom on defense, and I've seen more lapses in fundamentals (can't get a bunt down, missing the cut off man, etc .) in 2 weeks than I saw for the entire 1st half in 2012. I agree with him also. Perhaps he'd get a better reception if he wasn't prone to treating some posters with barely veiled contempt.

kittle42
04-16-2013, 03:46 PM
We have played 13 games. We have been in every game but one. Our hitters are not getting the hits when they need to. It happens. We could just as easily be 7-6 right now. This site is the most impatient group of dark clouds.

Putting 2007 aside, we have been watching Floyd pitch for 5 years. You think the posters here would figure out that Floyd is inconsistent and streaky. Right now he is dealing with a rough stretch.

Our offense sucks every April. We just need to start hitting with RISP. Simple as that. Playing on the road and in April is not going to help but I don't know if we can expect what we have been given so far (IN 13 GAMES or 8.02% of the season).

Our defense has had some fluky games and Beckham has gotten hurt (not that Beckham's injury has affected our D).

Our bullpen has been great minus Jones and Thornton's bad inning hurts his ERA.

Our starting pitching hasn't been great. Sale had the worst start of his career but does that mean he's not going to be an ace this year? I don't think so. Peavy had one bad start where he looked good for the most part but was left in too long. Floyd has been Floyd. Quintana had one bad inning. Axelrod shouldn't even be in the rotation but he has had one good and one bad start each. If Axelrod sucks again tonight maybe Hector will get the shot he deserves.

Is this Hawk, Rongey or both? The flaws many of us, and non-Sox-fan analysts, saw on paper before the season have played out in the first two weeks. I do not condemn a team for two weeks of play, but problems are problems, and they existed before Game 1.

kittle42
04-16-2013, 03:47 PM
I agree with him also. Perhaps he'd get a better reception if he wasn't prone to treating some posters with barely veiled contempt.

Wait, I try to veil my contempt? My contempt is pretty direct. Thus, I am insulted! How dare you?

Boondock Saint
04-16-2013, 03:52 PM
The list of people who don't need to get their **** together is pretty short.

kittle42
04-16-2013, 04:02 PM
The list of people who don't need to get their **** together is pretty short.

Roger Bossard. After that....hmmm....the guy who checks bags in the merchandise cart outside Gate 4 is pretty solid.

kobo
04-16-2013, 05:02 PM
We have played 13 games. We have been in every game but one. Our hitters are not getting the hits when they need to. It happens. We could just as easily be 7-6 right now. This site is the most impatient group of dark clouds.

Putting 2007 aside, we have been watching Floyd pitch for 5 years. You think the posters here would figure out that Floyd is inconsistent and streaky. Right now he is dealing with a rough stretch.

Our offense sucks every April. We just need to start hitting with RISP. Simple as that. Playing on the road and in April is not going to help but I don't know if we can expect what we have been given so far (IN 13 GAMES or 8.02% of the season).

Our defense has had some fluky games and Beckham has gotten hurt (not that Beckham's injury has affected our D).

Our bullpen has been great minus Jones and Thornton's bad inning hurts his ERA.

Our starting pitching hasn't been great. Sale had the worst start of his career but does that mean he's not going to be an ace this year? I don't think so. Peavy had one bad start where he looked good for the most part but was left in too long. Floyd has been Floyd. Quintana had one bad inning. Axelrod shouldn't even be in the rotation but he has had one good and one bad start each. If Axelrod sucks again tonight maybe Hector will get the shot he deserves.
It is not as simple as that. Hitting with RISP is just one aspect. This team can't draw a walk. It's pathetic when a player has more walks individually than an entire team. And even more pathetic that as a team they are 10 walks behind the next closest team to them. The approach so far seems to be home run or nothing. Dunn talked in the offseason about how much more aggressive he was going to be earlier in counts this season and he has been atrocious at the plate this year. That could change, and guys could start drawing walks and hitting to the opposite field and driving runners in and playing baseball the way it should be played but as of now I don't see that happening.

And as far as Robin goes, while he did a great job last season this team is showing the same approach to fundamentals that we saw when Ozzie was here. Which makes one wonder what the hell happened in ST this year. And fans are going to wonder if his heart is really into managing this team considering he never considered managing until someone in the organization reached out to him and his refusal to accept a contract extension. He either doesn't want to manage or doesn't want to be here because he knows how dire of a situation the organization is in.

SoxNation05
04-16-2013, 07:25 PM
It is not as simple as that. Hitting with RISP is just one aspect. This team can't draw a walk. It's pathetic when a player has more walks individually than an entire team. And even more pathetic that as a team they are 10 walks behind the next closest team to them. The approach so far seems to be home run or nothing. Dunn talked in the offseason about how much more aggressive he was going to be earlier in counts this season and he has been atrocious at the plate this year. That could change, and guys could start drawing walks and hitting to the opposite field and driving runners in and playing baseball the way it should be played but as of now I don't see that happening.

And as far as Robin goes, while he did a great job last season this team is showing the same approach to fundamentals that we saw when Ozzie was here. Which makes one wonder what the hell happened in ST this year. And fans are going to wonder if his heart is really into managing this team considering he never considered managing until someone in the organization reached out to him and his refusal to accept a contract extension. He either doesn't want to manage or doesn't want to be here because he knows how dire of a situation the organization is in.

You are 100% correct on your assessment of the offense but I am not ready to give up on them on April 16th. Of all the teams problems, the offense is the biggest. However, I think a team can still potentially contend with a sometimes problematic offense.

CoopaLoop
04-16-2013, 09:10 PM
Two weeks in and the Sox are fundamentally flawed in 2013 and it's Ventura's fault?

Got it.

cards press box
04-17-2013, 01:49 AM
Two weeks in and the Sox are fundamentally flawed in 2013 and it's Ventura's fault?

Got it.

Yeah, it is too early to say that the Sox are fundamentally flawed. On the bright side, they have managed to go 6-8 even though: (a) they have not played well, (b) they have not hit well and (c) the starting pitching has been spotty. Their record could be a lot worse.

The Sox do need shoring up, though, and help may be on the way. John Danks' last rehab start went well and he may be in Chicago soon. I started this thread with the thought that the Dodgers may want to move Ted Lilly soon and the Sox may be a potential suitor.

Let me throw out another player who may soon be on the trade market: Brian McCann. Rookie catcher Evan Gattis has been terrific for the Braves. Gattis is playing every day and hitting clean up on a team that is 12-1. I can't imagine that the Braves want to take Gattis out of the lineup.

In the Braves' 6-3 win over K.C. tonight, lefty reliever Luis Avilan was carted off the field with hamstring injury. Lefty Jonny Venters has been on the DL with an elbow injury.

Could a Matt Thornton for Brian McCann deal be in the works?

JB98
04-17-2013, 02:38 AM
Yeah, it is too early to say that the Sox are fundamentally flawed. On the bright side, they have managed to go 6-8 even though: (a) they have not played well, (b) they have not hit well and (c) the starting pitching has been spotty. Their record could be a lot worse.

The Sox do need shoring up, though, and help may be on the way. John Danks' last rehab start went well and he may be in Chicago soon. I started this thread with the thought that the Dodgers may want to move Ted Lilly soon and the Sox may be a potential suitor.

Let me throw out another player who may soon be on the trade market: Brian McCann. Rookie catcher Evan Gattis has been terrific for the Braves. Gattis is playing every day and hitting clean up on a team that is 12-1. I can't imagine that the Braves want to take Gattis out of the lineup.

In the Braves' 6-3 win over K.C. tonight, lefty reliever Luis Avilan was carted off the field with hamstring injury. Lefty Jonny Venters has been on the DL with an elbow injury.

Could a Matt Thornton for Brian McCann deal be in the works?

McCann has to prove he's healthy before I'd even consider it.

Zakath
04-17-2013, 08:43 AM
Any change has to include Floyd at this point. I have more confidence in Axelrod.

Axelrod fits his role right now as the #5 starter. The problem is is that Gavin, at this point, isn't a #3. If his curveball is working, he's a legitimate #3. If it's not, the rest of his stuff isn't good enough not to get hammered the third time, or occasionally the second time, through a lineup.

wassagstdu
04-17-2013, 10:44 AM
I would say Ventura's managing style probably works better when the team is winning and players are on autopilot. When things turn south his laid back style doesn't seem to be able to stop the bleeding.

Edit: This can be read as all one metaphor.

Tragg
04-17-2013, 05:22 PM
Given the uncertain status of John Danks and the inconsistent performance of Gavin Floyd, I think that they may need to do just that. Hector Santiago is a good internal option and perhaps the Sox could give him some starts and see how it goes.

Another possibility is Ted Lilly (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lillyte01.shtml). The Dodgers and Lilly appear to be at a contentious impasse (http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgersnow/la-sp-dn-dodgers-ted-lilly-20130415,0,5205041.story) and perhaps the Dodgers are anxious to move him soon. Lilly has made two rehab starts and as was his right, Lilly initially refused to make a third. He recently changed his mind and will make another rehab start tomorrow. I do suspect that the Dodgers want to end this controversy and, to do that, they are going to have to deal him.

The situation reminds me of the Kevin Youkilis fiasco last year in Boston and perhaps the Sox may once again be the beneficiary of a team anxious to move an unhappy veteran who still has something left in the tank.

Please, no, don't trade what few young players we have for veteran stiffs. We need to leave that approach far, far behind. Our starting pitching has been good anyway.

cards press box
04-17-2013, 07:15 PM
McCann has to prove he's healthy before I'd even consider it.

What if McCann is healthy and able to hit? Would you make that trade then?

Please, no, don't trade what few young players we have for veteran stiffs. We need to leave that approach far, far behind. Our starting pitching has been good anyway.

I agree with this -- I wouldn't trade much to get Lilly. But don't forget, the Sox didn't trade much to get Youkilis last year, either. I think the Dodgers end up dealing Lilly for next to nothing. The question is whether the Sox should stay with what they have or bring in Lilly to create some depth and maybe make Gavin Floyd expendable, assuming that John Danks comes back soon.

Boondock Saint
04-17-2013, 07:40 PM
Axelrod fits his role right now as the #5 starter. The problem is is that Gavin, at this point, isn't a #3. If his curveball is working, he's a legitimate #3. If it's not, the rest of his stuff isn't good enough not to get hammered the third time, or occasionally the second time, through a lineup.

His problem isn't his curve, it's his location on all of his pitches. He gets ahead of guys in the count, then he nibbles at the strike zone for strike three, but can never put the ball where he wants it to go, and ends up throwing a ton of pitches in the process. As a result of that, by the time a hitter's gotten to his third at bat, he's already seen everything Gavin has in his arsenal, and Gavin's likely gassed.

Tragg
04-17-2013, 08:47 PM
What if McCann is healthy and able to hit? Would you make that trade then?



I agree with this -- I wouldn't trade much to get Lilly. But don't forget, the Sox didn't trade much to get Youkilis last year, either. I think the Dodgers end up dealing Lilly for next to nothing. The question is whether the Sox should stay with what they have or bring in Lilly to create some depth and maybe make Gavin Floyd expendable, assuming that John Danks comes back soon.
It was the one trade the Sox have made that I can remember when they gave up absolutely nothing on paper: an utterly replaceable veteran utility infielder, and a pitching "prospect" who had already proven he couldn't pitch in the majors.
Axe is a decent fifth starter.

shingo10
04-17-2013, 09:59 PM
Two weeks in and the Sox are fundamentally flawed in 2013 and it's Ventura's fault?

Got it.


Good post. It is way too early to judge anything about how this will all turn out but I'm guilty of doing just that. Its hard not to be increasingly skeptical after what we've seen the past couple of seasons.

On the other hand this coaching staff has worked hard 2 spring trainings in a row on fundamentals so this very likely could be an aberration.