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View Full Version : Is Adam Dunn the Worst Free Agent Signing in White Sox History?


TomBradley72
04-13-2013, 08:24 AM
Just off the charts bad-

blandman
04-13-2013, 08:27 AM
Just off the charts bad-

:jaime


NO.

Brian26
04-13-2013, 08:28 AM
Jamie Navarro was certainly bad, but proportionally Dunn's contract considering the length and amount of money is probably worse when you consider production over those two years.

blandman
04-13-2013, 08:30 AM
Jamie Navarro was certainly bad, but proportionally Dunn's contract considering the length and amount of money is probably worse when you consider production over those two years.

I know Dunn's been bad, and he did have that historically bad season, but his numbers weren't atrocious last year. Not worth his salary, but certainly worthy of an everyday player.

Navarro didn't even belong in a pen. Plus that money was a ton for us back then.

DumpJerry
04-13-2013, 08:33 AM
Well, Todd Ritchie was acquired via trade and not free agency......

Brian26
04-13-2013, 08:34 AM
Navarro was 4yr/ 20 million.

asindc
04-13-2013, 08:40 AM
Navarro was the worst, hands down, but Dunn is the most disappointing. He cannot be reasonably relied on in any high-leverage situation.

TomBradley72
04-13-2013, 08:43 AM
I know Dunn's been bad, and he did have that historically bad season, but his numbers weren't atrocious last year. Not worth his salary, but certainly worthy of an everyday player.

Navarro didn't even belong in a pen. Plus that money was a ton for us back then.

He hit .204- a few outs away from < .200 as a full time DH-

WLL1855
04-13-2013, 08:50 AM
Navarro was 4yr/ 20 million.

This equates to about 4yr/80 million in today's dollars. Easily the worst contract for the Sox in my lifetime. Not to mention it left such a sour taste in Jerry's mouth he wouldn't give a decent contract to a pitcher for a decade after this deal.

Edit: But we got the Valenstache when we traded him to Milwaukee so maybe I'm being to harsh on him.

blandman
04-13-2013, 08:51 AM
He hit .204- a few outs away from < .200 as a full time DH-

Well, yeah but his OBP is significantly higher and his slugging percentage is above average as well.

blandman
04-13-2013, 08:52 AM
This equates to about 4yr/80 million in today's dollars. Easily the worst contract for the Sox in my lifetime. Not to mention it left such a sour taste in Jerry's mouth he wouldn't give a decent contract to a pitcher for a decade after this deal.

I'm not sure it wouldn't equate to more years too. 4 years was a ton back then.

TomBradley72
04-13-2013, 08:55 AM
Well, yeah but his OBP is significantly higher and his slugging percentage is above average as well.

Hit .212 w/RISP-

blandman
04-13-2013, 09:03 AM
Hit .212 w/RISP-

What was his obp in those situations?

I'm not arguing Dunn is good, just that he isn't as horrible as he's made out to be. He still should be paid very little. But he's got a place on most rosters. Navarro, on the other hand, didn't belong on a roster.

Zakath
04-13-2013, 09:11 AM
I know Dunn's been bad, and he did have that historically bad season, but his numbers weren't atrocious last year. Not worth his salary, but certainly worthy of an everyday player.


It's hard to judge 2011 for him because of the appendicitis early in the season that he tried to come back from WAY too early (as Paulie did a few years ago when he had an oblique issue).

2012 was more typical from him in terms of the power numbers. The average was crap, but you have to look at the situational hitting when judging that. Overall .204, but 50 points higher with runners on (.232) than when bases were empty (.182). That still needs to be higher. The K numbers were bad, but only 87 of the 222 came with runners on.

I really didn't like picking him up coming into 2011, because the K's were too high and I didn't like his split with runners on vs. bases empty. And 2011 did nothing to endear me to him. But he flipped it over a bit in 2012, and I'd wait to see how 2013 plays out before passing a final judgment.

Golden Sox
04-13-2013, 09:13 AM
For some reason or another Dunn has had more success in the National League. His lifetime average was 2:50 before he came over to the American League. I thought that after hitting 40 home runs last year for the White Sox they would be able to move him in the off season. That didn't happen and it seems like we're stuck with him through the 2014 season. Other than the fact that he hits home runs every now and then, I can honestly say he's the worse all around everyday player the White Sox have ever had in my lifetime.

blandman
04-13-2013, 09:17 AM
For some reason or another Dunn has had more success in the National League. His lifetime average was 2:50 before he came over to the American League. I thought that after hitting 40 home runs last year for the White Sox they would be able to move him in the off season. That didn't happen and it seems like we're stuck with him through the 2014 season. Other than the fact that he hits home runs every now and then, I can honestly say he's the worse all around everyday player the White Sox have ever had in my lifetime.

Give it a few years. The organization is stubborn and Viciedo is a way worse player in all respects.

Zakath
04-13-2013, 09:35 AM
For some reason or another Dunn has had more success in the National League. His lifetime average was 2:50 before he came over to the American League. I thought that after hitting 40 home runs last year for the White Sox they would be able to move him in the off season. That didn't happen and it seems like we're stuck with him through the 2014 season. Other than the fact that he hits home runs every now and then, I can honestly say he's the worse all around everyday player the White Sox have ever had in my lifetime.

Where he was in the field every day. Life might seem easy being a DH, but it's tough on the guy who basically is a spectator except for 4-5 chances a game.

Frater Perdurabo
04-13-2013, 09:50 AM
Slight hijack, but related: If the Sox decline to re-sign Paulie, does Dunn become the primary 1B (in perhaps more of a DH rotation among several position players), and thus would it be reasonable to expect his hitting to improve?

WhiteSox5187
04-13-2013, 09:59 AM
Slight hijack, but related: If the Sox decline to re-sign Paulie, does Dunn become the primary 1B (in perhaps more of a DH rotation among several position players), and thus would it be reasonable to expect his hitting to improve?

Well he hit a robust .212 when he played 1B last year so I don't think you will see much of a change in his production whether he plays the field or not. He is also going to be 34 and on the downside of his career (assuming he's not there already).

I voted for Navarro but I will say this, Navarro only hurt you every fifth day. Dunn, Sax and Snyder - they hurt you every day.

RKMeibalane
04-13-2013, 10:19 AM
Slight hijack, but related: If the Sox decline to re-sign Paulie, does Dunn become the primary 1B (in perhaps more of a DH rotation among several position players), and thus would it be reasonable to expect his hitting to improve?

I don't think so. He's not Frank Thomas, who clearly played better when he was the first baseman as opposed to the DH. Dunn has never been a good hitter. He provides power and gets on base via walks, but his ability to make contact is limited, even in the best of times.

Getting back to the main topic of this thread, I don't think Dunn is the worst free-agent signing in Sox history. I'd give that dubious honor to Jamie Navarro, who not only sucked for three seasons, but also threw his teammates under the bus, saying, "I can't hit for these guys," following a start in which he surrendered nine runs. I'd actually given him the benefit of the doubt prior to opening his mouth, but after he said that, I wanted him off the team, and had WSI been around back then, I'd have started fifty different threads calling for his immediate release.

Adam Dunn doesn't appear to have much left, but he's not a bad teammate. Jamie Navarro was ass who also happened to be terrible at his job. Not a good combination to have.

tstrike2000
04-13-2013, 10:21 AM
If you combine his two years of production vs the money spent, it may be the worst.

blandman
04-13-2013, 10:23 AM
Something to consider...

Didn't the Sox eventually (magically) turn Navarro into Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin? In a way, that kind of paid off very well. Valentin was a good player for us for a while.

RKMeibalane
04-13-2013, 10:40 AM
Something to consider...

Didn't the Sox eventually (magically) turn Navarro into Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin? In a way, that kind of paid off very well. Valentin was a good player for us for a while.

Yes, but that doesn't make his signing any worse. If he had performed as expected, he'd never have been traded.

blandman
04-13-2013, 11:17 AM
Yes, but that doesn't make his signing any worse. If he had performed as expected, he'd never have been traded.

But...that mustache!


:manos

Come on RK. No one can resist Manos.

TaylorStSox
04-13-2013, 12:23 PM
I'm supposed to believe a guy that led the league in walks and hit 40 homers last year is our worst FA ever? :scratch:

Never change, Sox fans. Never change.

RKMeibalane
04-13-2013, 12:30 PM
But...that mustache!


:manos

Come on RK. No one can resist Manos.



Valentin looks like he should have played in the 1980s with that thing.

Brian26
04-13-2013, 01:11 PM
Steve Sax and Cory Snyder were acquired through trades, so they should not be included on the list.

SoxNation05
04-13-2013, 01:18 PM
Slight hijack, but related: If the Sox decline to re-sign Paulie, does Dunn become the primary 1B (in perhaps more of a DH rotation among several position players), and thus would it be reasonable to expect his hitting to improve?

As much as I love Paulie, the situation we would be in without him would actually be acceptable and give us room for flexibility.

Looking as Dunn, Viciedo and Konerko fill in the positions LF, 1B and DH, letting Paulie go may actually make sense. With Dunn being able to play 1B and LF (I know he's a bad LF) and Viciedo being able to play LF and maybe 1B, we could bring in a cheaper replacement to Paulie and we would not be limited to bringing in only a first baseman. We would be able to bring in a 1B or a leftfielder or DH type. With options, Hahn could bring in a player that fits what he is trying to do and letting PK go opens up several possibilities as opposed to just one option.

Brian26
04-13-2013, 01:20 PM
Navarro was 4yr/ 20 million.

This equates to about 4yr/80 million in today's dollars.

How did you come up with that calculation?

$20 million in 1997, with inflation, would be around $30 million in 2013.

$56 million in 2013 would have been worth about $38 million in 1997.

dickallen15
04-13-2013, 01:20 PM
:jaime


NO.


I agree. Dunn has been bad but has contributed something. I wil never forget Navarro complaining about run support after a game in which he allowed 9 runs.

The one thing that was good about Navarro was the Sox got Valentin and Eldred for him.

DSpivack
04-13-2013, 01:28 PM
How did you come up with that calculation?

$20 million in 1997, with inflation, would be around $30 million in 2013.

$56 million in 2013 would have been worth about $38 million in 1997.

While I think 4 years, $80 million for Navarro is an exaggeration, to say that the baseball market has outpaced inflation since 1997 would be quite the understatement.

dickallen15
04-13-2013, 02:02 PM
[QUOTE=DSpivack;3041244]While I think 4 years, $80 million for Navarro is an exaggeration, to say that the baseball market has outpaced inflation since 1997 would be quite the understatement.[/QUOTE


I agree

I would think given Navarro's age and previous couple seasons, the contract he received from the Sox, had it happened in 2010, would have neen very similar to the amount they are paying Dunn. I think , at least for this particular argument, the contracts are non factors. Pretty much a wash.

34rancher
04-13-2013, 03:46 PM
Navarro was AWFUL. But we were able to absorb his salary and trade him. Dunn is untradable and is just a vortex of sucktitude. Although congrats to him on winning comeback player of year. Imagine of he hit 270 this year he could win it again. But the contract has hampered the team and made us into a team that will not make the playoffs as long as he's here. He's so one dimensional it's pathetic.

It would not be a complete thread without a reminder to Tdog about the original thread.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=124700&highlight=Adam+dunn

Chez
04-13-2013, 04:58 PM
Navarro or Dunn? Electric chair or lethal injection?

getonbckthr
04-13-2013, 05:55 PM
But the contract has hampered the team and made us into a team that will not make the playoffs as long as he's here. He's so one dimensional it's pathetic.

It would not be a complete thread without a reminder to Tdog about the original thread.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=124700&highlight=Adam+dunn

You're putting the lack of success all on Dunn? Thats crazy. He makes 14 milion a year, thats not crazy money. More important reasons on why we haven't had success lately. Peavy missing half his starts in 2010 and 11 didn't help those seasons. Danks missing almost all of last season probably changes things. How about Beckham being a major dissapointment and not really having a 3B for a few years now. Hell our overall drafting in general. Yes Dunn has been a let down but to put the blame on him only is crazy.

Golden Sox
04-13-2013, 06:07 PM
Adam Dunn is not only the worse all around player the White Sox have had in my lifetime, he's the worse cleanup hitter we've ever had. It looks like his batting average this year will be lower than what it was in 2011. I think Ventura is playing him at first base hoping this might stimulate him to go on to bigger and better things offensively. It isn't happening. Dunn is done as a productive major league hitter.

Soxman219
04-13-2013, 06:30 PM
Yes. I'm young so I don't remember White Sox baseball before 2003 very well. Adam Dunn is mostly strikeout/occasionally home run now. He's awful, has never had a batting average over .220, and was given a bunch of money to suck.

gobears1987
04-13-2013, 06:36 PM
Can we finally put to bed the myth that Kenny Williams was some supposed genius?

34rancher
04-13-2013, 06:59 PM
You're putting the lack of success all on Dunn? Thats crazy. He makes 14 milion a year, thats not crazy money. More important reasons on why we haven't had success lately. Peavy missing half his starts in 2010 and 11 didn't help those seasons. Danks missing almost all of last season probably changes things. How about Beckham being a major dissapointment and not really having a 3B for a few years now. Hell our overall drafting in general. Yes Dunn has been a let down but to put the blame on him only is crazy.

I agree with you (esp on peavy). But you have to wonder what the team is thinking with giving that much money to a guy who is lazy. His offseason lack of professional training and batting is hindering this team as the designated out. He is a big donkey all right. His work ethic is pathetic and I just hope the team can trade him for a Jose Valentin type deal. It is not be his fault entirely, but to never have played in a playoff game and been on 1 winning season has to be on him more than he accepts or others are willing to give him. Just a selfish and lazy player

LITTLE NELL
04-13-2013, 07:26 PM
Adam Dunn's act is starting to make me almost like and respect Claudell Washington.

Railsplitter
04-13-2013, 09:27 PM
Bloomberg. I had completey forgotten he had ever played for the Sox until I read about it in Sox histroy.

Noneck
04-13-2013, 09:36 PM
Bloomberg. I had completey forgotten he had ever played for the Sox until I read about it in Sox histroy.

Bloombergs 9th inning homer in the 9th on opening day 1978 made me forget about Zisk and Gamble for 1 day.

Lamp81
04-14-2013, 12:40 AM
Can we finally put to bed the myth that Kenny Williams was some supposed genius?

I don't blame KW, I blame Dunn himself. Pre-2011, Dunn's numbers were remarkably consistent. Now if you assume those numbers will start off with that consistency, and then add in the pro-offense of The Cell for 82 games, and the fact that he could be a DH for 150, and not hurt your defense, I would have signed Dunn too.

The downward slide of the backend of Dunn's career, the health issues, the mental issues or whatever, Dunn is to blame and not KW.

The choice here is Navarro, by a long shot! If you are going to pitch bad, own up to it, don't blame your teammates. Look at Barry Zito, how he has become an asset to the Giants after failing miserably after signing that huge FA contract.

StillMissOzzie
04-14-2013, 12:52 AM
Bad as Dunn has been, I gotta go with Navarro.

I always thought that the signing of Jaime Navarro was JR's knee-jerk reaction to the Cubs' swooping in and signing Kevin Tapani from the Sox. As such, I think JR let his emotions get the best of him by overpaying AND going (for him) so long, as if to say "I'll show THEM how to sign a FA pitcher"

And a really bad choice it was, even though it eventually did lead to Jose Valentin, who was one of my favorites while with the Sox. I was there for his 3-HR game in Kansas City, too.

SMO
:gulp:

waldo_the_wolf
04-14-2013, 01:44 AM
Another bad part of the Jaime Navarro signing was the Sox chose him over Roger Clemens. True, it was the washed-up, pre-steroid Roger Clemens but still.

getonbckthr
04-14-2013, 02:05 AM
Adam Dunn is not only the worse all around player .
I'll take Dunn over Rob Mackowiak

Frater Perdurabo
04-14-2013, 02:49 AM
I'll take Dunn over Rob Mackowiak

Not this again. Rob was a decent player and versatile hitter. He just wasn't a great CF. Unfortunately, that's where Ozzie played him.

Moses_Scurry
04-14-2013, 06:33 AM
I voted for Sax, not because he was the worst player or had the worst impact on the team of the choices, but because I was so excited when they got him. My 16 year old self thought that he and Raines being acquired in the same offseason after the team was finally good after years of awfulness meant that they would be destined to go all the way. He was my first experience in major White Sox acquisition disappointment.

Red Barchetta
04-14-2013, 09:42 AM
I voted Navarro primarily because he was such an asshat with the fans/media, etc.

As bad as Dunn has been, he seems like a guy you could sit down and enjoy a beer with.

white sox bill
04-14-2013, 05:22 PM
Can we finally put to bed the myth that Kenny Williams was some supposed genius?
Seems I can recall one year he did pretty good...

WLL1855
04-14-2013, 07:36 PM
I voted Navarro primarily because he was such an asshat with the fans/media, etc.

As bad as Dunn has been, he seems like a guy you could sit down and enjoy a beer with.

This sums it up well. Dunn at least was apologetic for sucking in 2011. Navarro was completely blameless (at least in his mind) for the train wreck he caused.

Dunn tried and failed hard in 2011. Navarro I'm not sure even tried when he was here and unhesitatingly threw the rest of the team under the bus after causing his disaster.

soxfanreggie
04-14-2013, 08:12 PM
Not this again. Rob was a decent player and versatile hitter. He just wasn't a great CF. Unfortunately, that's where Ozzie played him.

I always thought of Rob as a utility guy to plug a hole somewhere for a game. I never thought to see him playing as much as he did in CF, and I think that's why you didn't see him play it in 2007. He did play five positions in his time here and had the best averages of his career here.

GoSox2K3
04-14-2013, 08:30 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=128279

Can we finally put to bed the myth that Kenny Williams was some supposed genius?

Yes. He handed off the GM position with this organization in horrible shape - a worst-in-the-league minor league system and a major league roster full of bloated contracts.

:KW:
Gio Gonzalez and Ryan Sweeney for Nick Swisher....and then Nick Swisher for Marquez and Nunez. BOOYAH!

TomBradley72
04-15-2013, 12:06 PM
Month by Month batting average in the Adam Dunn era (after he hit .227 in Aug/Sept in 2010) 15 consecutive months of hitting < .232, 8 < .199.

2011:

April- .160
May- .204
June- .136
July- .145
August- .155
Sept- .128

2012:

April- .231
May- .230
June- .181
July- .211
August- .176
Sept- .200

2013:

April- .136

white sox bill
04-15-2013, 01:14 PM
Bloomberg. I had completey forgotten he had ever played for the Sox until I read about it in Sox histroy.
And now he's the Mayor of the Big Apple!!

TDog
04-15-2013, 02:10 PM
I know Dunn's been bad, and he did have that historically bad season, but his numbers weren't atrocious last year. ...

Yes, they were. If another player with a midrange salary and minimal defensive skills playing for a contending team, which the White Sox very much were, was putting up the sort of numbers (say, a younger player or a Jason Giambi-type who had been picked up after being released by another team or traded for a player to be named later), he wouldn't have remained in the lineup on an everyday basis.

He hit home runs, which was what people noticed because he hadn't done that before, but he set a new American League record for strikeouts. He led the league in walks, but I read where he was called out on strikes as many times as he walked, although I find that hard to believe.
The White Sox did fairly well with runners in scoring position last year, if you only look at the numbers relative to the rest of the league. The American League averaged .255. But Dunn, with the most RISP at bats of any White Sox hitter had the lowest RISP batting average, .212, of anyone with more than a few RISP at bats. He was supposed to produce runs, he came up with more runners in scoring position than anyone on the team and led the team in RBIs, but he was the worst regular in the lineup at driving in runners in scoring position. Miguel Cabrera led the league in RBIs, not just because he led the league in home runs, but because he hit .356 with runners in scoring position.


On-base percentage is meaningless if you only hit .204, unless your job is to get on base. If your job is to drive in runs -- and the batting order was designed to maximum the number of times Dunn came up with runners in scoring position -- an atrociously low batting average is failure.
You are better off watching the game and find stats that support what you saw than finding stats that contradict what you saw. I saw Dunn having a terrible season last year after having a worse season the previous year and continuing to be an offensive black hole this year. The numbers don't exist in isolation. They tell you what players did while the team as a whole won or lost. It isn't a matter of plugging numbers into a lineup and coming up with runs and plugging numbers into the starting rotation and coming up with runs and comeing up with win based on the difference. You may be able to find numbers that support arguments over who is better than who, but you are taking them out of the context of the game.


Even last week against the Nationals, Dunn had an RBI with a double in his fourth at bat to make the game closer as the Sox were trailing late. A successful at bat, certainly, but in the previous three at bats, Dunn came up with runners in scoring position with the game tied and a chance to give the White Sox the lead. He failed each time. He went close to what usually falls as the league average for runners in scoring position, but had he doubled in one of his first three at bats, the game would have been very different.


That was just one game, of course. I am pulling for Dunn to do better. i would live to see him hit .260 and cut his strikeouts in half. I have to cheer for him because my team has committed to him at such a high price. I have never believed he was a good hitter as long as I've watched him play, but I have to hope he works on becoming one. If he doesn't do appreciably more than he has done these first two years-plus to help the team win, considering the money committed to him that can't be used elsewhere, considering the black hole he creates in a key spot in the lineup, there is no question Dunn will be known as the standard for bad White Sox free agent signings.

I just looked a the poll optins. Steve Sax came in a trade with the Yankees for three pitchers.

MISoxfan
04-15-2013, 04:59 PM
You are better off watching the games and then searching for stats to support what you saw? Seriously?

DumpJerry
04-15-2013, 05:28 PM
And now he's the Mayor of the Big Apple!!
:tealtutor:

white sox bill
04-15-2013, 05:33 PM
:tealtutor:
Well I was close LOL, havent tealed in a while!! You issuing citation?

DumpJerry
04-15-2013, 05:37 PM
Well I was close LOL, havent tealed in a while!! You issuing citation?
I can't. My eyes are still bleeding....

RKMeibalane
04-15-2013, 05:52 PM
Another bad part of the Jaime Navarro signing was the Sox chose him over Roger Clemens. True, it was the washed-up, pre-steroid Roger Clemens but still.

:schueler

"My daughter is the future."

vinny
04-15-2013, 05:55 PM
He hit home runs, which was what people noticed because he hadn't done that before, but he set a new American League record for strikeouts. He led the league in walks, but I read where he was called out on strikes as many times as he walked, although I find that hard to believe.

Yeah, that part is not true. I pulled his retrosheet data for last season:

169 Ks swinging (including foul tips)
53 Ks called
105 walks (3 intentional)

But I'm starting to wonder if 2012 was an aberration for Dunn in the AL, rather than 2011...

getonbckthr
04-15-2013, 06:39 PM
Yeah, that part is not true. I pulled his retrosheet data for last season:

169 Ks swinging (including foul tips)
53 Ks called
105 walks (3 intentional)

But I'm starting to wonder if 2012 was an aberration for Dunn in the AL, rather than 2011...

Thru 12 games...

TDog
04-15-2013, 06:49 PM
You are better off watching the games and then searching for stats to support what you saw? Seriously?

Seriously. Watch the game.

Stats are only meaningful in an argument if you are using them to argue something that you can see is true. If you are using stats to argue something that you can see is clearly untrue, if you are using to argue that Dunn was a good offensive player last season, all you are proving is that statistics can lie.

If you say Dunn's numbers really weren't so bad last year, you weren't paying attention to the game and were looking at the wrong numbers because there are plenty of numbers that will tell you he was a bad offensive player last season.

blandman
04-15-2013, 07:31 PM
Seriously. Watch the game.

Stats are only meaningful in an argument if you are using them to argue something that you can see is true. If you are using stats to argue something that you can see is clearly untrue, if you are using to argue that Dunn was a good offensive player last season, all you are proving is that statistics can lie.

If you say Dunn's numbers really weren't so bad last year, you weren't paying attention to the game and were looking at the wrong numbers because there are plenty of numbers that will tell you he was a bad offensive player last season.

Um...what?

Stats are unbiased. Your eyes (seemingly especially your eyes) are most certainly biased.

RKMeibalane
04-15-2013, 07:56 PM
Um...what?

Stats are unbiased. Your eyes (seemingly especially your eyes) are most certainly biased.

Which is why you use statistics to confirm what you believe your eyes are seeing. TDog is saying that watching last season's game gave him the impression that Dunn wasn't playing well, and his numbers supported that assessment.

PeteWard
04-16-2013, 01:31 AM
Bloombergs 9th inning homer in the 9th on opening day 1978 made me forget about Zisk and Gamble for 1 day.

Me too. I ditched school to go!

PeteWard
04-16-2013, 01:32 AM
Was Bobby Bonds a free agent? Either way I detested him and hated it when the Sox got him.

eastchicagosoxfan
04-16-2013, 04:11 AM
I voted Dunn over Navarro. I only had to put up with Navarro every fifth day. Dante would have written about another level of Hell had he watched Dunn play on a daily basis. When I played pick up games as a kid, there was always one kid that was an automatic out. Dunn reminds me of that kid.

LITTLE NELL
04-16-2013, 06:11 AM
Was Bobby Bonds a free agent? Either way I detested him and hated it when the Sox got him.


Got him in a trade from the Angels for Brian Downing and a couple of pitchers in December of 1977. We also picked up Richard Dotson and Thad Bosley in that trade. Bonds was gone by the end of June of 1978.

TomBradley72
04-16-2013, 06:16 AM
Yeah, that part is not true. I pulled his retrosheet data for last season:

169 Ks swinging (including foul tips)
53 Ks called
105 walks (3 intentional)

But I'm starting to wonder if 2012 was an aberration for Dunn in the AL, rather than 2011...

2012:

April- .231
May- .230
June- .181
July- .211
August- .176
Sept- .200

2013:

April- .136

Not all of 2012- just April/May- then for the past 4.5 months of regular season baseball- back to 2011-

TomBradley72
04-16-2013, 06:17 AM
me too. I ditched school to go!

+1

Lip Man 1
04-16-2013, 10:46 AM
Nell:

Bonds was gone by May. The Sox started so poorly Veeck realized there was no way in hell he was going to re-sign him. Only played in 26 games with the Sox.

Lip

SI1020
04-16-2013, 10:49 AM
Um...what?

Stats are unbiased. Your eyes (seemingly especially your eyes) are most certainly biased. That's the bean counter method that has stifled or buried countless businesses. Besides no one agrees on what the numbers mean anymore. It was argued here that the great increase in HRs during the "steroid era" was due to the ball and not any chemical help. I prefer my own evaluations over anybody's new dogma.

SI1020
04-16-2013, 10:52 AM
Me too. I ditched school to go! For a day you could dream that there would be a carry over from the previous year. It didn't happen. They were awful the next three years.

Goose
04-16-2013, 01:52 PM
Without having the luxury of looking at the numbers right now, my memory of David Wells was not particularly good.

My vote goes for him. Dude ate too many cheeseburgers which resulted in I'm-too-fat-to-pick-up-a-grounder back spasms.

GABP
04-16-2013, 02:11 PM
Wells was traded to the Sox, not signed.

Brian26
04-16-2013, 07:13 PM
Seriously. Watch the game.

Stats are only meaningful in an argument if you are using them to argue something that you can see is true. If you are using stats to argue something that you can see is clearly untrue, if you are using to argue that Dunn was a good offensive player last season, all you are proving is that statistics can lie.

If you say Dunn's numbers really weren't so bad last year, you weren't paying attention to the game and were looking at the wrong numbers because there are plenty of numbers that will tell you he was a bad offensive player last season.

I'm in TDog's camp on this one. Always have been.

Perfect example right now would be the people telling us that Keppinger is playing a good second base with Beckham out. Watch the balls that get through the hole to his left. Look at the bad throws to first that haven't necessarily resulted in non-outs but still were horrible. Look at the number of 4-6 Fielder's Choice outs instead of 4-6-3s because of his poor range or poor throws.

rainbow6
04-17-2013, 08:46 PM
Adam Dunn made at least an off-hand comment in '11 about retiring if things didn't improve; I wonder if it's time for the media/fans to raise the question of retirement to Ventura and Dunn himself?

Perhaps some type of settlement could be worked out for the remaining funds due?

As a supporter of the signing, I had empathy for Adam in '11 and defended him during his tenure as a Sox. However, I have to imagine even he realizes it's silly for him to continue to try and compete against Major League pitching.

From the Sox perspective, I have to think this subject has come up?

Any goodwill/empathy I've had towards Adam will quickly desolve if he doesn't take the initiative and walk away from the game on his own terms.

DumpJerry
04-17-2013, 08:49 PM
Adam Dunn made at least an off-hand comment in '11 about retiring if things didn't improve; I wonder if it's time for the media/fans to raise the question of retirement to Ventura and Dunn himself?

Perhaps some type of settlement could be worked out for the remaining funds due?

As a supporter of the signing, I had empathy for Adam in '11 and defended him during his tenure as a Sox. However, I have to imagine even he realizes it's silly for him to continue to try and compete against Major League pitching.

From the Sox perspective, I have to think this subject has come up?

Any goodwill/empathy I've had towards Adam will quickly desolve if he doesn't take the initiative and walk away from the game on his own terms.
I can think of about 30 million reason why he would not retire.

MISoxfan
04-17-2013, 08:59 PM
Seriously. Watch the game.

Stats are only meaningful in an argument if you are using them to argue something that you can see is true. If you are using stats to argue something that you can see is clearly untrue, if you are using to argue that Dunn was a good offensive player last season, all you are proving is that statistics can lie.

If you say Dunn's numbers really weren't so bad last year, you weren't paying attention to the game and were looking at the wrong numbers because there are plenty of numbers that will tell you he was a bad offensive player last season.

You are just setting up straw man after straw man. I never said you shouldn't watch the game. I also never said that Dunn's numbers weren't so bad last year, that would depend on your definition of bad.

It is laughable to think that you should watch the game, make a conclusion, and then cherry pick stats that support your conclusion. Why are you even looking for stats if you've already drawn a conclusion beforehand? You may as well keep adding epicycle after epicycle to the path of Mars to support the eye test conclusion that we are the center of the solar system.

gosox41
04-17-2013, 09:49 PM
I know Dunn's been bad, and he did have that historically bad season, but his numbers weren't atrocious last year. Not worth his salary, but certainly worthy of an everyday player.

Navarro didn't even belong in a pen. Plus that money was a ton for us back then.

If one could somehow adjust the salaries to today's standards, I think Navarro would be the worst signing. Besides being bad on the field, he was bad off of it too and didn't to anything to help clubhouse chemistry.



Bob

RKMeibalane
04-17-2013, 09:52 PM
If one could somehow adjust the salaries to today's standards, I think Navarro would be the worst signing. Besides being bad on the field, he was bad off of it too and didn't to anything to help clubhouse chemistry.



Bob

He was the pitching version of The Choice.

gosox41
04-17-2013, 10:06 PM
He was the pitching version of The Choice.

Haha. Nice.

Also not sure if anyone point out in the posts as I haven't (and won't read them all) that we traded for Steve Sax. It's impossible for him to be the worst free agent signing.



Bob

TDog
04-18-2013, 01:51 AM
You are just setting up straw man after straw man. I never said you shouldn't watch the game. I also never said that Dunn's numbers weren't so bad last year, that would depend on your definition of bad.

It is laughable to think that you should watch the game, make a conclusion, and then cherry pick stats that support your conclusion. Why are you even looking for stats if you've already drawn a conclusion beforehand? You may as well keep adding epicycle after epicycle to the path of Mars to support the eye test conclusion that we are the center of the solar system.

I do like your analogy of the efforts to maintain a geocentric universe, and I'm sorry if you believe I exaggerated your point. It was a point made by others over many months, and I'm sorry if you felt singled out. But that analogy would be more approriate for the people who try to reduce baseball to an ever-more-detailed spreadsheet.

It isn't a matter of cherry-picking stats. I am not arguing that Miguel Cabrera had a down season for the Tigers last season because his OPS was below 1.000 for the first time in three seasons and because his walk total was the lowest since 2008. What I am saying has nothing to do with creating more complex mechinisms to prove my point. The numbers I quoted for Adam Dunn would not have been compatible with any successful baseball season unless they came in conjuinction with some awesome pitching numbers.

But if you watched the games, you don't need stats to tell you Dunn has had a terrible White Sox career. You may be able to find numbers that tell you he didn't do that badly. His on-base percentage last season was .001 lower than Alex Rios' on-base percentage. And Dunn hit more home runs.

Everyone who watched him on a consistent basis should have been able to see he had a terrible season last year. You don't need to add up the numbers to see he was a failure. We can see his season went horribly wrong. A closer look at the stats, beyond will show you precisely what went wrong. That's the way numbers are used most everywhere outside of baseball. It isn't cherry-picking. It's closer to what they call item analysis in the ed biz.

The numbers are about baseball. Baseball isn't about the numbers. The bias is in what stats people consider the benchmark for success and insistence on applying the standards uniformly.

blandman
04-18-2013, 02:42 AM
I'm in TDog's camp on this one. Always have been.

Perfect example right now would be the people telling us that Keppinger is playing a good second base with Beckham out. Watch the balls that get through the hole to his left. Look at the bad throws to first that haven't necessarily resulted in non-outs but still were horrible. Look at the number of 4-6 Fielder's Choice outs instead of 4-6-3s because of his poor range or poor throws.


I don't want to act like he's anything special out there, but he's a million x a million times better than rainbow relay getz out there, and people pined over and over for his defensive acumen. By default, anything Keppinger apologists say seem tame.

LITTLE NELL
04-18-2013, 05:33 AM
Can we at least bench this guy for a week or so, anybody will be better than him for right now.

Golden Sox
04-18-2013, 08:41 AM
Lets just say that Jordan Danks starts hitting whenever he is put in the lineup. Lets just say Adam Done continues to be as bad as he has been. You then give Jordan Danks a starting job and he then continues to hit. Do you then bench your $14 million dollar DH? I have a feeling this whole situation is not going to turn out well for the White Sox, Adam Done said a couple of years ago that he would quit the game when it was no longer any fun. I can't believe he's having any fun now. It will be curious to see how this turns out.

amsteel
04-18-2013, 11:07 AM
I don't think I want to live in a world where Adam Dunn has a sub 0.100 record and is playing every day. We're about 3 days away from that world becoming a reality.

After dealing with it all the way through 2011, I hope the Sox actually try to do something about it this year. Benching him, putting him on the DL with a phantom injury to get rehab ABs, anything. The time has passed to let the problem correct itself.

Dude's not gonna retire, he's got ~20$ Mil still coming his way. I would have no problem with the Sox making his playing life so miserable he demands a release and is off the books for 2014.

Crestani
04-18-2013, 11:54 AM
Kenny Williams worse signing ever..!!

TomBradley72
04-18-2013, 11:58 AM
Haha. Nice.

Also not sure if anyone point out in the posts as I haven't (and won't read them all) that we traded for Steve Sax. It's impossible for him to be the worst free agent signing.



Bob

I started this thread- I caught the error- and edited the survey to reflect "big name or free agent signing"- for guys like Sax-

TomBradley72
04-18-2013, 12:05 PM
Lets just say that Jordan Danks starts hitting whenever he is put in the lineup. Lets just say Adam Done continues to be as bad as he has been. You then give Jordan Danks a starting job and he then continues to hit. Do you then bench your $14 million dollar DH? I have a feeling this whole situation is not going to turn out well for the White Sox, Adam Done said a couple of years ago that he would quit the game when it was no longer any fun. I can't believe he's having any fun now. It will be curious to see how this turns out.

If Danks turns out to have figured it out at the MLB level- putting him in LF and DHing Tank would be the way to go.

If Koeppinger gets back to his career norms and Gillespie continues to impress- you could go to a "rotating DH"-

cards press box
04-18-2013, 04:03 PM
Can we finally put to bed the myth that Kenny Williams was some supposed genius?

I disagree. KW was a good GM. Sure, he had some misses but he had a lot of hits, too, and a world championship, to boot.

I don't think Dunn is thw worst White Sox free agent signing ever. That would have to be Navarro. But Dunn is one of the most inconsistent, so far.

I have no idea what to make of his slump this year.

SI1020
04-18-2013, 04:15 PM
I disagree. KW was a good GM. Sure, he had some misses but he had a lot of hits, too, and a world championship, to boot.

I don't think Dunn is thw worst White Sox free agent signing ever. That would have to be Navarro. But Dunn is one of the most inconsistent, so far.

I have no idea what to make of his slump this year. Are you surprised? I mean we're into the third season of almost total futility.

sullythered
04-18-2013, 04:21 PM
Are you surprised? I mean we're into the third season of almost total futility.

Dunn was fine last year. .800 OPS from a DH is fine. He had one horrible season in his entire career.

SI1020
04-18-2013, 06:17 PM
Dunn was fine last year. .800 OPS from a DH is fine. He had one horrible season in his entire career. We'll agree to disagree on that one. Dunn was not fine in my book.

MISoxfan
04-18-2013, 06:30 PM
Dunn was fine last year. .800 OPS from a DH is fine. He had one horrible season in his entire career.

I don't think an .800 OPS is fine for a DH at all, and on top of that OPS is just another stat and you can't just look at it in isolation. I am very much in the stat camp in most things, but I don't think anyone would argue that an OPS of .800 from a guy hitting .204 is the same thing as an OPS an OPS from a guy hitting .270. I can excuse a lot of strikeouts as long as they come with power, walks, and at least something resembling a major league batting average. Dunn's national league career was the perfect example of this, but a guy hitting .204 better be some amazing defense and batting 6th or 7th, even with 40 home runs.

I don't think his numbers as a whole are bad, but they are not acceptable for a DH.

amsteel
04-18-2013, 06:36 PM
Dunn gets paid to do 2 things: hit HRs and get BBs.

In 1207 career PAs with the Sox he has a combined 237 HR+BB.

Every time he walks to the plate there is less than a 20% of him actually doing the only thing he is supposed to be doing to help the team.

Not the best analogy, but you get the idea.

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2013, 07:26 PM
A .204 average wouldn't be that terrible if more of the hits he did get were for extra bases and came with runners on base.

.204 with 40 homers, 40 doubles, plus 100 walks and 110 RBI would be acceptable.

.204 with 40 homers and just 20 doubles doesn't cut it, especially when you don't play a premium defensive position at a high level.

asindc
04-18-2013, 08:35 PM
The bottom line is this: Dunn is liability, even if he was being paid the veterans' minimum.

amsteel
04-18-2013, 08:57 PM
The bottom line is this: Dunn is liability, even if he was being paid the veterans' minimum.

If he was getting the league minimum he'd be pumping gas at this point.

LoveYourSuit
04-18-2013, 10:28 PM
Is there another bumb ass contract the Sox can take in exchange for Dunn? A realistic one?

wsoxfan
04-18-2013, 11:05 PM
I feel bad even saying it but I'd take Soriano over Dunn at this point...

Dibbs
04-18-2013, 11:09 PM
Worst player in White Sox history, period. Besides Dewayne Wise of course.

LoveYourSuit
04-18-2013, 11:23 PM
I feel bad even saying it but I'd take Soriano over Dunn at this point...


Sadly the Cubs have no need for Dunn, even if it was for Soriano.

There has to be a team out there needing a 1B (NL) or DH?

Giants? Is Lincecum a bust big enough right now at $20 million to offset?

Just thinking out loud.

amsteel
04-18-2013, 11:37 PM
Sell Dunn to McDonald's, he becomes the new Hamburgalar, Sox get 25$ Mil guaranteeing a free double cheeseburger for every fan that walks in the gate for the next 10 years.

MAKE THIS HAPPEN, HAHN.

kruzer31
04-18-2013, 11:39 PM
A .204 average wouldn't be that terrible if more of the hits he did get were for extra bases and came with runners on base.

.204 with 40 homers, 40 doubles, plus 100 walks and 110 RBI would be acceptable.

.204 with 40 homers and just 20 doubles doesn't cut it, especially when you don't play a premium defensive position at a high level.

.204 is never acceptable. Don't forget his .159 in 2011. Worse hitter I've ever watched day to day

BigHurt3515
04-19-2013, 12:11 AM
Send him to the Astros!

JB98
04-19-2013, 01:53 AM
Sadly the Cubs have no need for Dunn, even if it was for Soriano.

There has to be a team out there needing a 1B (NL) or DH?

Giants? Is Lincecum a bust big enough right now at $20 million to offset?

Just thinking out loud.

I can't see that. I know Brandon Belt is off to a slow start, but his .781 OPS last year was only slightly below Dunn's .801. And Belt plays decent defense and makes only $550K. Even though Lincecum's inconsistency is enough to drive anybody mad, I think I'd bet on him figuring it out over Dunn figuring it out.

I'm afraid the Sox are stuck with Dunn. I was hoping they would trade Dunn this past offseason, but perhaps there was no market for him. If there was no market for him in December, there certainly won't be a market for him now when he's off to a miserable start.

GlassSox
04-19-2013, 11:07 AM
Sell Dunn to McDonald's, he becomes the new Hamburgalar, Sox get 25$ Mil guaranteeing a free double cheeseburger for every fan that walks in the gate for the next 10 years.

MAKE THIS HAPPEN, HAHN.

:clap: :gulp:

Hitmen77
04-19-2013, 02:11 PM
It's a tough call between Navarro and Dunn. Navarro and his contract were a huge albatross around the neck of the White Sox back in the 90s. To make matters worse, he had a bad attitude. But, at least the Sox were able to salvage that fiasco by trading Navarro to MIL for Valentin and Cal Eldred. Unless the Sox can miraculously pull off something similar with Dunn, I'm giving my vote to the Dunn signing.

One of the worst things about the Navarro FA signing is that Sox ownership took their own stupid decision to throw a lot of money and a long term contract to an unimpressive player like Navarro and used it as an excuse many years afterward of why they won't sigh pitchers to long term contracts.

My concern is that they'll use the same reasoning after the Dunn signing. The Sox tried and failed, therefore they'll never try again. We've already heard some of this logic since 2011: well, the Sox went "all in" and spent a lot of money on a high priced free agent and the fans still didn't show up. Conclusion - Sox fans won't support even a winner. Nevermind that the 2011 team was an utter disappointment and very low expectations drove advanced sales for 2012. In this regard, I think the Dunn signing could haunt the Sox long after his contract is over (just as happened with Navarro).

Lip Man 1
04-19-2013, 02:38 PM
Hitman:

Making the Navarro decision even worse was the fact the Sox turned down overtures from Roger Clemens' agents to join up.

"Roger Clemens is over the hill..." -- Ron Schueler.

Turned out he wasn't.

Now you can get all hot and bothered about the possible use of steroids by him but at that time no one knew anything about it in connection with him. For all intents and purposes he was 'clean' at that time based on what was known then.

With them or without them he was still a much better pitcher than Navarro.

Lip

CoopaLoop
04-19-2013, 07:02 PM
Dunn was fine last year. .800 OPS from a DH is fine. He had one horrible season in his entire career.

An OPS of exactly .800 isn't great for the guy hitting 4th.

And his OPS after May by month.

June .770
July 788
August 691
September 697

His on base percentage was .333 in June and then hovering around .300 the rest of the year.

Dunn has been atrocious in Chicago outside of his first 170 at bats in 2012.

RKMeibalane
04-19-2013, 08:04 PM
.204 is never acceptable. Don't forget his .159 in 2011. Worse hitter I've ever watched day to day

:hitless

"Worse than me, even."

PeteWard
04-19-2013, 10:03 PM
I disagree. KW was a good GM. Sure, he had some misses but he had a lot of hits, too, and a world championship, to boot.

I don't think Dunn is thw worst White Sox free agent signing ever. That would have to be Navarro. But Dunn is one of the most inconsistent, so far.

I have no idea what to make of his slump this year.

This year? His entire time with the Sox has been a slump.

I time my pee breaks not between innings but when he comes up because I can't stand watching him "hit" .

kruzer31
04-20-2013, 05:44 PM
0-4 with 3ks, 0- his last 29 and 1-37 last 11 games. BENCH THIS BUM

Dan H
04-20-2013, 05:52 PM
He is truly appears clueless. In the ninth inning he didn't know he had three strikes. Dunn stood outside the box not knowing what was happening and that is not the first time this year he has done that. Fox broadcasters said the same old thing about him, that he has been around and that he'll come out of it. Don't buy it. Time for him to retire. If I were him, I'd work out some kind deal with the Sox instead of embarrassing myself like that. He can't be hurting for money.

WhiteSox5187
04-20-2013, 05:55 PM
He is truly appears clueless. In the ninth inning he didn't know he had three strikes. Dunn stood outside the box not knowing what was happening and that is not the first time this year he has done that. Fox broadcasters said the same old thing about him, that he has been around and that he'll come out of it. Don't buy it. Time for him to retire. If I were him, I'd work out some kind deal with the Sox instead of embarrassing myself like that. He can't be hurting for money.

He isn't hurting for money but he's not stupid either, he's not going to leave all that money on the table. He really looks like his 2011 performance was not a fluke.

rainbow6
04-20-2013, 06:21 PM
While I don't envy the position Ventura is in with this roster, I am about lose all respect for him if he keeps putting an automatic 0 for 4 in the fourth or fifth spot in the batting order. Why have a manager if he is not going to adjust his line up based on player performance?

If Dunn does not retire this homestand, which would make the most sense (why bother going on the next road trip) he will officially become my most hated White Sox player.

Is any local media asking him why he is doing this? I would love to hear his side of this. I'm sure the Sox would give him a chunk of money to go away so it can't be only financial.

If the retirement isn't announced soon the only conclusion to make is that Adam Dunn is content with stealing money from an organization and dragging it down as low as his sub. 100 batting average will allow.

I honestly think he will do the right thing and retire before the next road trip.

WhiteSox5187
04-20-2013, 06:26 PM
While I don't envy the position Ventura is in with this roster, I am about lose all respect for him if he keeps putting an automatic 0 for 4 in the fourth or fifth spot in the batting order. Why have a manager if he is not going to adjust his line up based on player performance?

If Dunn does not retire this homestand, which would make the most sense (why bother going on the next road trip) he will officially become my most hated White Sox player.

Is any local media asking him why he is doing this? I would love to hear his side of this. I'm sure the Sox would give him a chunk of money to go away so it can't be only financial.

If the retirement isn't announced soon the only conclusion to make is that Adam Dunn is content with stealing money from an organization and dragging it down as low as his sub. 100 batting average will allow.

I honestly think he will do the right thing and retire before the next road trip.

Not a chance he retires. He is not going to walk away from all that money.

sox1970
04-20-2013, 06:29 PM
Not a chance he retires. He is not going to walk away from all that money.

While I agree it probably won't happen, he has said more than a couple times that if he didn't want to play anymore, he would quit with time left on his contract. I'm all for it.

I don't know how long they can go on like this. Maybe they can work out some type of buyout for him to just leave. He retires, and they pay him to go.

Noneck
04-20-2013, 06:32 PM
He is not tradable, I doubt the Sox will eat his salary and players making that much dont ride the Sox pine much. All I want is the Sox not to let him off the hook like in 2011. Let him know he will get the at bats needed to make history. Maybe that will embarrass him enough to call it a career but it will probably just bring on an injury. I would say anyone in the Sox system would have a better OBP than he has now. The guy is a true bum.

rainbow6
04-20-2013, 06:36 PM
Not a chance he retires. He is not going to walk away from all that money.
Again, my scenario has him being financially compensated for his release - not the full amount but a sum agreeable for both sides.

If you are correct and he continues to "play" he becomes the first White Sox player, in my opinion, that would deserve a shower of boos before, during, and after every at bat.

When pitchers can no longer perform they disappear, regardless or age (see Carlos Zambrano). I don't get why the same rule doesn't apply to hitters (or maybe it does, just not in Chicago).

Soxman219
04-20-2013, 06:57 PM
He's below .100 right now, wow:angry

GlassSox
04-20-2013, 07:39 PM
He's below .100 right now, wow:angry

Sit him on the bench, trade him for a dozen golf balls, eat his salary..I don't care, get him the **** out of the line up

DumpJerry
04-20-2013, 09:03 PM
Sig update time.:angry:

GlassSox
04-20-2013, 09:37 PM
Sig update time.:angry:

:cool:

34rancher
04-20-2013, 10:36 PM
This thread is hilarious. TDog and I have were blasted here the day we signed him and predicted his sucktitude.

He laziness (worst offseason training in history of the south side is well documented) and his swing has put him in a vortex of strikeouts and lack of a clue that he is driving this team into the ground. He's never been in a playoff game and never will. Each team he leaves just improves instantly. Cut this bum.

rainbow6
04-20-2013, 10:55 PM
Just watched the Comcast recap of the game; stunned to see no mention of Dunn or questions about his imminent retirement.

Maybe I was wrong.

I pray this organization does the right thing and doesn't become a laughingstock that allows a lunatic to continually pick its pocket as it gradually decends into second division status.

Brian26
04-20-2013, 11:15 PM
The only thing close to this that I can remember is Greg Luzinski in 1984. He was 33 yrs old, batted .238 with 13 HRs, and retired at the end of the season. Dunn is 33 now and has not come close to matching the Bull's contribution to the team.

Noneck
04-20-2013, 11:27 PM
The only thing close to this that I can remember is Greg Luzinski in 1984. He was 33 yrs old, batted .238 with 13 HRs, and retired at the end of the season. Dunn is 33 now and has not come close to matching the Bull's contribution to the team.


The difference is that I dont believe Luzinski was under contract after 84. I wonder if he would have walked if he was under contract for another year.

Falstaff
04-21-2013, 02:29 AM
I don't know if this been considered: What about send Dunn to AAA for awhile and get intense coaching and a chance to (hopefully) destroy AAA pitching. Figure out what needs to be figured out for awhile, and if he has success with that assignment, come back to the big leagues.
Maybe Dunn has to OK this, but how could he not have the integrity, at this point, to do whats right for the team as well as any hope of productive
MLB career. What else is there to do besides ride the bench?

Moses_Scurry
04-21-2013, 06:50 AM
At what point do the Sox do what the Dodgers did with Andruw Jones, release him, and eat the salary? I have to believe the salary is a sunk cost unless Hahn can pull off a miracle and trade him for some relief.

Frater Perdurabo
04-21-2013, 06:54 AM
Dunn makes Brian Anderson look like Ted Williams.

Frater Perdurabo
04-21-2013, 07:00 AM
I was on board with the Dunn signing because I expected his usual .250 with 100 walks and 40 homers.

I'm willing to write off 2011 to the appendectomy.

But he was lousy for four months of 2012, and has been worse than 2011 so far this year.

I'm willing to wait until the All-Star Break. But if things don't improve by then, I'd simply release him. At this point, Joe Bordhard, Jeff Liefer, Ross Gload, Brian Daubach, or any other AAAA slugging stiff could out-hit Dunn.

34rancher
04-21-2013, 07:13 AM
I don't know if this been considered: What about send Dunn to AAA for awhile and get intense coaching and a chance to (hopefully) destroy AAA pitching. Figure out what needs to be figured out for awhile, and if he has success with that assignment, come back to the big leagues.
Maybe Dunn has to OK this, but how could he not have the integrity, at this point, to do whats right for the team as well as any hope of productive
MLB career. What else is there to do besides ride the bench?

Dunn refuses to work out, get in shape, and take swings in the offseason. What makes you think he'd do anything professional during the season? He has an AWFUL work ethic.
Also, If he were willing to sacrifice during a season, don't you think at some point against shift he'd slow down bat speed and slap or bunt a hit (prob a double) down 3rd base line?

SoxFanCPA
04-21-2013, 08:11 AM
Other - Dewayne Wise

Heff
04-21-2013, 08:21 AM
Dunn refuses to work out, get in shape, and take swings in the offseason. What makes you think he'd do anything professional during the season? He has an AWFUL work ethic.
Also, If he were willing to sacrifice during a season, don't you think at some point against shift he'd slow down bat speed and slap or bunt a hit (prob a double) down 3rd base line?

This. He refuses to change his approach, and it's painful to watch. Time to sit him down - maybe he can get his head back, because we're not going to find any takers...

harwar
04-21-2013, 08:37 AM
Even though in this day and age, it won't happen, i think a trip to Charlotte couldn't hurt .. i've seen it happen in the past when players in the starting lineup were sent down because they were absolutely lost offensively, much as Dunn is today .. i was wondering what would happen to his contract if the White Sox were to release him outright (which i think is highly unlikely) .. does his contract then become void and leave open the possibility of some team signing him to a base salary contract? .. management would have to be wary of him changing teams only to have him become a productive player .. also, i believe that there is no chance that Dunn will retire mid-season .. possibly after the season is over, if things continue the way they are .. at any rate, he definitely should be hitting lower in the batting order..

eastchicagosoxfan
04-21-2013, 08:46 AM
Even though in this day and age, it won't happen, i think a trip to Charlotte couldn't hurt .. i've seen it happen in the past when players in the starting lineup were sent down because they were absolutely lost offensively, much as Dunn is today .. i was wondering what would happen to his contract if the White Sox were to release him outright (which i think is highly unlikely) .. does his contract then become void and leave open the possibility of some team signing him to a base salary contract? .. management would have to be wary of him changing teams only to have him become a productive player .. also, i believe that there is no chance that Dunn will retire mid-season .. possibly after the season is over, if things continue the way they are .. at any rate, he definitely should be hitting lower in the batting order..
What happens if Dunn is told he is being sent down, and he refuses to report? Do the Sox gain any leverage?

34rancher
04-21-2013, 08:51 AM
What happens if Dunn is told he is being sent down, and he refuses to report? Do the Sox gain any leverage?

His contract is 100% guaranteed for this year and next year. He's not going anywhere unless he is outright released and then the team is on the hook for his salary anyways. What they need to do is bench his butt and at least get some production from the AB he is wasting.

SoxFanCPA
04-21-2013, 09:12 AM
What happens if Dunn is told he is being sent down, and he refuses to report? Do the Sox gain any leverage?

No, if he doesn't want to go, he doesn't have to go.

oldgrouch
04-21-2013, 09:46 AM
I heard several times yesterday that Dunn has changed his approach. What are they talking about?:?::?::?:

Frater Perdurabo
04-21-2013, 09:56 AM
It's scary to think Dunn has been so bad that we'd be better off with Mark Kotsay or Darin Erstad.

soltrain21
04-21-2013, 09:56 AM
This. He refuses to change his approach, and it's painful to watch. Time to sit him down - maybe he can get his head back, because we're not going to find any takers...

I heard several times yesterday that Dunn has changed his approach. What are they talking about?:?::?::?:

He has changed his approach. They have him swinging a little later. It needs to stop.

Noneck
04-21-2013, 09:59 AM
What they need to do is bench his butt and at least get some production from the AB he is wasting.

If you bench him the team is essentially playing with 24. Hes not a pinch runner, pinch hitter or defensive replacement. The Sox bench is already full of non major league talent and with their injuries its even worse now. Its a tough situation and the way he is playing a pitcher would have a better OBP than him.

On another note, This may be crazy and so is he but if I was the Sox I would consider signing Zambrano as a DH. He is crazy as a ****house rat and maybe thats what this team needs among their choirboys. Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

Heff
04-21-2013, 10:00 AM
I heard several times yesterday that Dunn has changed his approach. What are they talking about?:?::?::?:

He's striking out swinging instead of looking now.

amsteel
04-21-2013, 10:04 AM
Just because you buy $200 worth of groceries it doesn't mean you keep it in the fridge after it spoils.

doublem23
04-21-2013, 10:06 AM
He has changed his approach. They have him swinging a little later. It needs to stop.

Yeah, Dunn's always going to strikeout, but it's not a problem if he's walking a ton and hitting homers. He's doing neither now.

GlassSox
04-21-2013, 10:11 AM
Just because you buy $200 worth of groceries it doesn't mean you keep it in the fridge after it spoils.

:roflmao:

Foulke You
04-21-2013, 10:13 AM
He has changed his approach. They have him swinging a little later. It needs to stop.
In Spring Training, Dunn told the media he needed to be aggressive earlier in counts to cut down on strikeouts and raise his batting average. The thought was that too many pitchers threw him a good pitch to hit on the first one. However, this plan is backfiring on Dunn and putting him behind in the count early. Pitchers have caught on to this and are throwing him poor pitches to hit on the first one. Dunn's game is to work the counts deep and either hit a HR, walk, or K. Now, he is getting no walks because he is swinging early and putting himself in a hole and just striking out all the time.

Zakath
04-21-2013, 10:13 AM
Yeah, Dunn's always going to strikeout, but it's not a problem if he's walking a ton and hitting homers. He's doing neither now.

The ratio in 2013 is nearly 5:1 K's vs BB/HR (23 K, 2 HR, 3 BB). His career ratio is about 4:3 (2054K, 408 HR, 1173 BB).

Lip Man 1
04-21-2013, 10:16 AM
Dunn said he's changed his approach in that he's swinging earlier in the count. Maybe that's why he's no longer walking.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
04-21-2013, 10:58 AM
Have the White Sox EVER just eaten a salary of more than the major league minimum? The only time I can think of the White Sox DFAing a big salary guy was Julio Cruz way back when.

eastchicagosoxfan
04-21-2013, 12:10 PM
I guess we'll see how poorly a player can perform, and still remain on a roster. I just can't see the Sox releasing him.

chisoxjtrain
04-21-2013, 12:41 PM
Article on Dunn's change of approach:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/adam-dunns-failed-experiment/

Tragg
04-21-2013, 01:38 PM
Have the White Sox EVER just eaten a salary of more than the major league minimum? The only time I can think of the White Sox DFAing a big salary guy was Julio Cruz way back when.

Didn't we finally have enough of MacDougal and release him early?

SI1020
04-21-2013, 01:40 PM
He just looked awful striking out once again in the 2nd inning of today's game. Please end this. It's beyond embarassing. If he wasn't being paid such an obscene amount of money I'd feel bad for the guy.

bunkaroo
04-21-2013, 06:27 PM
I understand it might be difficult to bench him, but why is he batting anything higher than 8th? If Rios or Paulie do anything with 2 outs, the inning's pretty much over when he comes up.

I was against Dunn from the first mention of trading for him before he was a free agent. Who cares what he did on a bunch of non-contending NL teams. Just an awful signing.

Tragg
04-21-2013, 06:29 PM
I understand it might be difficult to bench him, but why is he batting anything higher than 8th?

Good point. Ventura finally found the right spot for Wise today: 9th. And Dunn should be right down there with him.

GoSox2K3
04-21-2013, 07:18 PM
At what point do the Sox do what the Dodgers did with Andruw Jones, release him, and eat the salary? I have to believe the salary is a sunk cost unless Hahn can pull off a miracle and trade him for some relief.

Ha! Fat chance Sox ownership will do that. They'd sooner blame the fans for not supporting the team enough that admit that they're accountable for the Dunn fiasco, cut their losses and eat his contract.

Oct. 2014 (the end of Dunn's contract) seems like it's years away right now.

thechico
04-23-2013, 12:17 PM
It's scary to think Dunn has been so bad that we'd be better off with Mark Kotsay or Darin Erstad.

At this point, we'd be better off with (almost) 50 year old Darren Jackson batting.

amsteel
04-23-2013, 01:46 PM
At this point, we'd be better off with (almost) 50 year old Darren Jackson batting.

Now that's would be a marketing gimmick I would get behind.

Goose
04-23-2013, 02:00 PM
Good point. Ventura finally found the right spot for Wise today: 9th. And Dunn should be right down there with him.

If we have 2 guys batting in the 9th spot, and they both strike out, does it still count as only 1 out?

Hartman
04-23-2013, 04:16 PM
He may have changed his approach, but the fact is he just isn't seeing the ball. He has had plenty of good pitches to hit this year.

Lets be honest, this guy has done little to nothing going on year 3. Sure he rebounded a little last year but still ended up with a pitiful average and was still a boat anchor on the lineup. There has to be a organizational component to this...above average players seem to come to the White Sox and immediately start sucking. There are countless examples.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2013, 05:23 PM
Hart:

Not saying you are wrong but who else are you talking about?

You can put Swisher in that category based on his numbers in Oakland and with the Yankees but who else?

Lip

Hartman
04-23-2013, 10:30 PM
Rios - five tool player who took an entire year to get back to where he was

TDog
04-24-2013, 02:01 PM
Rios - five tool player who took an entire year to get back to where he was

More than a year if you include the time he spent drasticallhy underachieiving at the end of his Toronto tenure that inspired the Blue Jays to put him on waivers and let him go for nothing more than the waiver price.

jdm2662
04-24-2013, 02:11 PM
Rios - five tool player who took an entire year to get back to where he was

Rios was already having a down year in TOR which is why they let him go for nothing. He was very good in 2010, but had a another down year in 2011. Let's hope the odd years of sucking doesn't come back...

MiamiSpartan
04-24-2013, 08:26 PM
Wasn't Nick Swisher a Free Agent? He totally sucked....

Lip Man 1
04-24-2013, 10:35 PM
Swisher came in a trade with Oakland.

Lip