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bunkaroo
04-12-2013, 12:15 AM
Highlights on MLB Network now.

EDIT: Greinke, TCQ, Hairston and Kemp all ejected.

Brian26
04-12-2013, 12:32 AM
Listening to Charley Steiner now on At Bat. He is saying Greinke has a shoulder injury due to the fight.

thomas35forever
04-12-2013, 12:32 AM
Why couldn't we have seen this a few years back? That would have breathed some fire into our club.

amsteel
04-12-2013, 12:36 AM
TCQ didn't like the HBP but whatever Greinke said set him off. I doubt it was intentional since it was on 3-2 count with 0 out in a 1 run game. Or maybe Greinke's an idiot.

Looks like TCQ has dropped some lbs.

The Immigrant
04-12-2013, 12:37 AM
Greinke's had it coming for a looong time.

amsteel
04-12-2013, 12:37 AM
Listening to Charley Steiner now on At Bat. He is saying Greinke has a shoulder injury due to the fight.

If I was gonna pick someone to get hurt there it would have been Carlos.

doublem23
04-12-2013, 12:55 AM
Here's the video:

http://deadspin.com/bench-clearing-brawl-erupts-between-dodgers-and-padres-472600148

getonbckthr
04-12-2013, 12:59 AM
Whether intentional or not there's a history there that I remember and thanks to MLBN for digging it up. **** Grienke.

BigHurt3515
04-12-2013, 01:00 AM
"That is fertilizer says Matt Kemp"

hahahahahhaha

thomas35forever
04-12-2013, 01:03 AM
"That is fertilizer says Matt Kemp"

hahahahahhaha
Vin Scully has always done a good job of express things eloquently, especially profanities.

BigHurt3515
04-12-2013, 01:04 AM
Vin Scully has always done a good job of express things eloquently, especially profanities.

It was a great line even though I don't get how fertilizer=bull****

bunkaroo
04-12-2013, 01:05 AM
Whether intentional or not there's a history there that I remember and thanks to MLBN for digging it up. **** Grienke.

Can you refresh my memory on that?

thomas35forever
04-12-2013, 01:07 AM
It was a great line even though I don't get how fertilizer=bull****
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanure#Humanure

doublem23
04-12-2013, 01:11 AM
It was a great line even though I don't get how fertilizer=bull****

Cow **** has been used as a fertilizer for hundreds of years

lpneck
04-12-2013, 01:13 AM
Why couldn't we have seen this a few years back? That would have breathed some fire into our club.

Yes... if only we could have seen more of Carlos Quentin wanting to hit things when he is frustrated. That always ends well. :smile:

getonbckthr
04-12-2013, 01:15 AM
Can you refresh my memory on that?

Grienke has hit Quentin twice before. MLBN showed video of one game in 09 where Grienke threw one over his head one inning and later on plunked him and I believe that was the 2nd time he hit him. Quentin wanted to charge then but Olivo and the Ump calmed him down. This time Quentin looked at him after Grienke said something and it was on!

getonbckthr
04-12-2013, 01:15 AM
Yes... if only we could have seen more of Carlos Quentin wanting to hit things when he is frustrated. That always ends well. :smile:

Hitting things probably cost him a MVP...

bunkaroo
04-12-2013, 01:16 AM
Grienke has hit Quentin twice before. MLBN showed video of one game in 09 where Grienke threw one over his head one inning and later on plunked him and I believe that was the 2nd time he hit him. Quentin wanted to charge then but Olivo and the Ump calmed him down. This time Quentin looked at him after Grienke said something and it was on!

Ahh OK thanks I remember that now.

palehozenychicty
04-12-2013, 01:36 AM
Quentin needs to learn how to avoid the ball too. He's on pace to shatter Biggio's record. They need his bat in the lineup. He should be stepping up as a leader for that team.

Greinke is a weirdo, but I don't think he tried to hit him in that situation.

Nevertheless, he'll think again about throwing at TCQ in the future. :redneck

amsteel
04-12-2013, 01:56 AM
https://twitter.com/mlb/status/322587875080294400

Broken collar bone for Greinke, I wonder if that will play a role in the punishment doled out to TCQ.

getonbckthr
04-12-2013, 01:57 AM
https://twitter.com/mlb/status/322587875080294400

Broken collar bone for Greinke, I wonder if that will play a role in the punishment doled out to TCQ.

Grienke needs to learn how to take a tackle...

chicagowhitesox1
04-12-2013, 02:00 AM
Thats a 4-6 weeks injury there.

bunkaroo
04-12-2013, 02:01 AM
Woah I wonder if it happened when he hit the ground.

cub killer
04-12-2013, 02:09 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHoSqamCEAELzce.jpg

Lip Man 1
04-12-2013, 02:18 AM
Depends on how bad the break is but I always throught a collarbone was more like 10 weeks.

Lip

blandman
04-12-2013, 02:44 AM
https://twitter.com/mlb/status/322587875080294400

Broken collar bone for Greinke, I wonder if that will play a role in the punishment doled out to TCQ.

It is most likely going to be extremely severe now. Otherwise, it'll look like inciting a brawl and seriously injuring someone is tolerated. I'd imagine somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 games. They aren't going to mess around with this.

chicagowhitesox1
04-12-2013, 02:49 AM
Apparently on Twitter the Dodgers coach Hairiston said he lost it when the Padres were making fun of Grienke being injured.

Scots-Sox
04-12-2013, 05:13 AM
Kemp needs a lengthy ban for incitement - his behaviour was a disgrace

Bob Roarman
04-12-2013, 06:10 AM
Why couldn't we have seen this a few years back? That would have breathed some fire into our club.

Is this a joke?

34rancher
04-12-2013, 07:03 AM
Just reading the recap and seeing the video, that game is littered with ex-sox. TCQ, Richard, Uribe, etc.

ComiskeyBrewer
04-12-2013, 07:09 AM
Apparently on Twitter the Dodgers coach Hairiston said he lost it when the Padres were making fun of Grienke being injured.

You stay classy San Diego.

So Q claims they have a history as justification for his actions, and that history is that Grienke hit him 4 years ago? That made him think it was intentional on a full count in a tie game? TCQ must be a freaking moron. I'd love to learn what Zack said, but unless it was one of a few magic words the charge isn't justified.

Brian26
04-12-2013, 07:16 AM
Just reading the recap and seeing the video, that game is littered with ex-sox. TCQ, Richard, Uribe, etc.

Kotsay walked TCQ back to the dugout too.

wassagstdu
04-12-2013, 07:48 AM
Quentin started toward first then charged the mound when Grienke said something to him. He wasn't happy about getting hit, but that was not why he charged.

DumpJerry
04-12-2013, 07:53 AM
You stay classy San Diego.

So Q claims they have a history as justification for his actions, and that history is that Grienke hit him 4 years ago? That made him think it was intentional on a full count in a tie game? TCQ must be a freaking moron. I'd love to learn what Zack said, but unless it was one of a few magic words the charge isn't justified.
Everybody has hit TCQ. He gets hit more times in one game than a Boxer does in 15 rounds. Heck, he is probably hit more times in the course of a season than Adam Dunn strikes out. He's gonna remember one particular person who hit him four years ago? That's like remembering the name and face of the McDonald's cashier who shorted you five cents four years ago.

Bobby Thigpen
04-12-2013, 07:58 AM
It was a great line even though I don't get how fertilizer=bull****
What should they use?

Brawndo?

DumpJerry
04-12-2013, 08:04 AM
What should they use?

Brawndo?
City slickers. He probably uses manure purchased at Home Depot.

Madvora
04-12-2013, 08:10 AM
Kemp and Quentin separated by police on the way out.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/04/12/dodgers-matt-kemp-confronts-padres-carlos-quentin/2076637/

102605
04-12-2013, 08:21 AM
haha the bullpen didn't decide to come out until the 2nd push or about 2 minutes into it.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 08:30 AM
You stay classy San Diego.

So Q claims they have a history as justification for his actions, and that history is that Grienke hit him 4 years ago? That made him think it was intentional on a full count in a tie game? TCQ must be a freaking moron. I'd love to learn what Zack said, but unless it was one of a few magic words the charge isn't justified.

Quentin started toward first then charged the mound when Grienke said something to him. He wasn't happy about getting hit, but that was not why he charged.

I was listening to Mike & Mike on the way in this morning, and TCQ said that he didn't even know what Greinke said, yet somehow, what he's not sure he said set him off. What the hell is wrong with him?

As an aside, I've followed Don Mattingly's career since the age of 5, as he's from my hometown. His post-game interview is as angry as I've ever heard him, and also represents the nicest way I've ever heard someone (TCQ) being called an idiot. TCQ needs to watch his back, as these two teams will meet again next week in LA.

gobears1987
04-12-2013, 08:33 AM
TCQ may just be the dumbest person to come out of Stanford.

doublem23
04-12-2013, 08:54 AM
Kemp and Quentin separated by police on the way out.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/04/12/dodgers-matt-kemp-confronts-padres-carlos-quentin/2076637/

Ha ha, holy ****

Jerko
04-12-2013, 09:19 AM
Kemp needs a lengthy ban for incitement - his behaviour was a disgrace


Agreed.

central44
04-12-2013, 09:23 AM
It's a shame for Grienke, but that's the risk you take when you're known to throw at heads as much as he does. Can't say this was too surprising to hear about

GAsoxfan
04-12-2013, 10:11 AM
Quentin started toward first then charged the mound when Grienke said something to him. He wasn't happy about getting hit, but that was not why he charged.

I wouldn't say he was walking towards first. He was heading straight to the grass before he decided to charge.

The fact that TCQ doesn't even know what Greinke said shows that TCQ was just looking for an excuse to charge the mound.

I agree with Mattingly, stupid move by TCQ.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:27 AM
The fact that TCQ doesn't even know what Greinke said shows that TCQ was just looking for an excuse to charge the mound.

Completely agree on this point. Here was the line of questioning by reporters following the game:

Reporter: "Did he say anything to you that caused you charge the mound?"

TCQ: "Yes."

Reporter: "What did he say?"

TCQ: "I don't know what he said, but that's why I went after him."

What the **** is that? Quentin admits that he doesn't know what Greinke said, but he started a fight with him anyway. I've seen the video, and unless Greinke was scowling at Quentin after he threw the pitch, there's nothing that explains why Carlos charged the mound. Greinke's body language gives no indication that he's about to fight, or that he's challenging Quentin in any way.

Soxman219
04-12-2013, 10:28 AM
I loved him when he was here, but I've always said there was something off with him. If he ever put that anger on his hitting he could be one of the best players in the league. Should have won MVP in '08.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:33 AM
It's a shame for Grienke, but that's the risk you take when you're known to throw at heads as much as he does. Can't say this was too surprising to hear about

Ball was no where near his head, and probably hits very few major league hitters that don't want the free base.

Quentin gets hit more than anyone else in the game.

I'm really not seeing anything that doesn't make this look like Quentin is 100% a thug.

Just a thought, and I know this happened during a baseball game, but is there a chance assault charges could be brought up? If this wasn't a broadcast baseball game, Greinke would have a pretty darn good case to bring up some serious charges.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:38 AM
Just a thought, and I know this happened during a baseball game, but is there a chance assault charges could be brought up? If this wasn't a broadcast baseball game, Greinke would have a pretty darn good case to bring up some serious charges.

An interesting question, though one wonders if prosecutors would also pursue charges against Matt Kemp for repeatedly trying to instigate further violence. TCQ is an ass, and he was absolutely in the wrong by attacking Greinke, but Kemp was out of control, as evidenced by his post-game confrontation with TCQ between the clubhouses.

EMachine10
04-12-2013, 10:40 AM
Quentin is a complete idiot.

shingo10
04-12-2013, 10:41 AM
Kotsay walked TCQ back to the dugout too.


There's a name I didn't want to think about anytime soon....DH extraordinaire.

It's a shame that Greinke was injured but I don't think there is anything wrong with TCQ charging if he felt like he was hit on purpose. If he's already been plunked 3 times by Greinke and one buzzed by his head...well, obviously he thought enough was enough.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:42 AM
There's a name I didn't want to think about anytime soon....DH extraordinaire.

It's a shame that Greinke was injured but I don't think there is anything wrong with TCQ charging if he felt like he was hit on purpose. If he's already been plunked 3 times by Greinke and one buzzed by his head...well, obviously he thought enough was enough.

Dude's been hit more than a 100 times in his short career. There's lots of guys that hit him a few times, and it's not like it was at his head. Charging the mound is really never okay (which is why it's against the rules), but it's certainly not warranted here.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:43 AM
There's a name I didn't want to think about anytime soon....DH extraordinaire.

It's a shame that Greinke was injured but I don't think there is anything wrong with TCQ charging if he felt like he was hit on purpose. If he's already been plunked 3 times by Greinke and one buzzed by his head...well, obviously he thought enough was enough.

But the pitch wasn't anywhere near his head. As Don Mattingly pointed out, one has to understand the game situation. The Dodgers were ahead 2-1, and Quentin was facing a full count. Why would Greinke intentionally put the tying run on base by plunking him? Quentin is an idiot, and he deserves whatever suspension is handed down.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:45 AM
An interesting question, though one wonders if prosecutors would also pursue charges against Matt Kemp for repeatedly trying to instigate further violence. TCQ is an ass, and he was absolutely in the wrong by attacking Greinke, but Kemp was out of control, as evidenced by his post-game confrontation with TCQ between the clubhouses.

I was under the impression Kemp was upset that Padres players were making fun of Greinke for complaining about being hurt. In the moment, that's also instigation.

After the game...most certainly.

shingo10
04-12-2013, 10:46 AM
But the pitch wasn't anywhere near his head. As Don Mattingly pointed out, one has to understand the game situation. The Dodgers were ahead 2-1, and Quentin was facing a full count. Why would Greinke intentionally put the tying run on base by plunking him? Quentin is an idiot, and he deserves whatever suspension is handed down.

Should have clarified...Greinke buzzed one by his head in 09 in addition to hitting him a few times.

I'm just saying in all the times TCQ was hit here (which was A LOT) he never reacted like he was upset at the pitcher because he knew he was just as much to blame for getting hit. So obviously he felt differently about this incident or this pitcher.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:49 AM
Should have clarified...Greinke buzzed one by his head in 09 in addition to hitting him a few times.

I'm just saying in all the times TCQ was hit here (which was A LOT) he never reacted like he was upset at the pitcher because he knew he was just as much to blame for getting hit. So obviously he felt differently about this incident or this pitcher.

Did you happen to read Quentin's post-game comments? He said that he wasn't upset about being hit, but rather, what Greinke said to him after he was hit. Here's the catch, however: Quentin later admitted that he didn't know what Greinke said to him, but he continued to cite this as the reason for his charging the mound. Carlos was obviously looking for an excuse to fight Greinke. It's possible that their history factored into his thought process (I'm using that term loosely), but I find it hard to believe that he would risk suspension by charging the mound over something he wasn't sure Greinke said. His story doesn't add up at all, and only further damages his credibility.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:51 AM
Should have clarified...Greinke buzzed one by his head in 09 in addition to hitting him a few times.

I'm just saying in all the times TCQ was hit here (which was A LOT) he never reacted like he was upset at the pitcher because he knew he was just as much to blame for getting hit. So obviously he felt differently about this incident or this pitcher.

That's mostly irrelevant to this situation, in which both the game situation and the location of pitch made it obvious the TCQ was waiting for any perceived opportunity to injury Greinke.

kittle42
04-12-2013, 11:00 AM
Greinke is a weirdo

Because he has a legit anxiety disorder or for some other reason?

GlassSox
04-12-2013, 11:07 AM
Carlos was wrong to charge the mound but why would Greinke say something to Carlos after hitting him with a pitch?

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 11:08 AM
Carlos was wrong to charge the mound but why would Greinke say something to Carlos after hitting him with a pitch?

Without knowing what he said, it's hard to answer why. In any event, what does it matter, as Quentin himself didn't know what Greinke said?

blandman
04-12-2013, 11:09 AM
Carlos was wrong to charge the mound but why would Greinke say something to Carlos after hitting him with a pitch?

Carlos was walking at him already. Kinda hard not to say something.

GlassSox
04-12-2013, 11:25 AM
Carlos was walking at him already. Kinda hard not to say something.

Now it is reported that Greinke stated he did not say anything.

#1swisher
04-12-2013, 11:38 AM
Well done, Dodgers.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 11:55 AM
Now it is reported that Greinke stated he did not say anything.

I don't understand that. Greinke said previously that he wouldn't share what he said (meaning that he did say something), and Quentin was quoted as saying that Greinke said something to him that marked "the last straw" and triggered his decision to charge the mound.

It sounds to me like the media doesn't have its story straight.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 11:56 AM
Well done, Dodgers.

What does this mean? It's not the fault of the Dodgers organization that Greinke was injured. If you're implying that they made a mistake in offering Greinke his contract in the first place, that matter remains up for debate, given that he's made not even a handful of starts in a Dodgers uniform.

Harry Potter
04-12-2013, 12:03 PM
I was under the impression Kemp was upset that Padres players were making fun of Greinke for complaining about being hurt. In the moment, that's also instigation.

After the game...most certainly.

I know Jerry Hairston Jr was upset - which led to the second flareup between the teams

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 12:09 PM
I know Jerry Hairston Jr was upset - which led to the second flareup between the teams

Correct. Kemp was shown yelling at various Padres during that time, but he later said that he was upset because Greinke told him that he already knew he was injured, that he'd broken something, not because they were making fun of Greinke's injury, which was apparently the reason for Hairston's outburst. Mattingly said that Padres backup catcher, John Baker, was "doing a lot of talking," but he wasn't sure about anyone mocking Greinke.

PorkChopExpress
04-12-2013, 12:10 PM
I don't understand that. Greinke said previously that he wouldn't share what he said (meaning that he did say something), and Quentin was quoted as saying that Greinke said something to him that marked "the last straw" and triggered his decision to charge the mound.

It sounds to me like the media doesn't have its story straight.

Sounds to me like the players are following an unwritten rule that says you don't tell the media what was said. I think something wad said, and only TCQ and Greinke know what it was, and maybe a few others close enough to hear. JMO.

doublem23
04-12-2013, 12:12 PM
Sounds to me like the players are following an unwritten rule that says you don't tell the media what was said. I think something wad said, and only TCQ and Greinke know what it was, and maybe a few others close enough to hear. JMO.

I agree

SoxNation05
04-12-2013, 12:16 PM
You guys are being a little rough on CQ. Grienke is a punk and has been asking for it for years. Grienke can throw up and in to Carlos as much as he wants and Carlos is basically defenseless. I am glad Carlos stood up for himself.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 12:17 PM
Sounds to me like the players are following an unwritten rule that says you don't tell the media what was said. I think something wad said, and only TCQ and Greinke know what it was, and maybe a few others close enough to hear. JMO.

:walnuts

"I've never heard of this rule. Please tell me more."

CubKilla
04-12-2013, 12:27 PM
Kemp needs a lengthy ban for incitement - his behaviour was a disgrace

Why? He was upset that his teammate was attacked. I saw the game, and all he was saying was that was "F'n BS." No one here has mentioned that Kemp had an 0-2 1st inning pitch thrown right at his melon. Kemp didn't threaten or charge.

If you're saying that he should be suspended for, reportedly, having to be separated from Quentin by the cops after the game, then I might agree with you there.

If Kemp gets suspended for his on-field actions then every player on that field should get suspended for their involvement.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 12:28 PM
You guys are being a little rough on CQ. Grienke is a punk and has been asking for it for years. Grienke can throw up and in to Carlos as much as he wants and Carlos is basically defenseless. I am glad Carlos stood up for himself.

But he wasn't throwing at him, at least not during last night's game. Greinke was nursing a one-run lead, and Quentin had worked the count full. Why would Greinke concede the potential tying run by throwing at Carlos and putting him on first base? It's bad baseball, and makes absolutely no sense, even knowing the history between these two men.

Furthermore, Quentin himself said that he wasn't as upset about being hit as he was about something Greinke (now allegedly) said to him, even going so far as to say that he may not have charged the mound had Greinke said nothing. I've posted his comments below, but you can read an entire article about the altercation here (http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgersnow/la-sp-dn-dodgers-padres-zack-greinke-carlos-quentin-matt-kemp-20130412,0,7314725.story).

When Quentin was hit, he took a few steps forward and glared at Greinke, who appeared to say something to him.

"That was the final straw," Quentin said.

So Quentin wouldn't have charged the mound if Greinke hadnít said anything?

"There's a chance I don't," he said.

Quentin later told reporters that he didn't even know what Greinke said to him. As others have suggested, he may be following one of sports' unwritten rules about not sharing sensitive information with the media, but if he's actually being honest and doesn't know what Greinke said (if he said anything), it makes absolutely no sense that he would charge the mound in response to Grenke's comments if he didn't know what they were. Carlos isn't helping his case by giving (seemingly) contradictory reasons for his behavior. The smart thing to do would be to shut the **** up, but Quentin doesn't appear to be that smart, Stanford education or otherwise.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-12-2013, 12:29 PM
I agree that something was probably said and that we won't find out what it was. Greinke is indeed a bit of a punk and isn't going to say anything that might chill the Righteous Outrage on his behalf and the sportsblabbers dumping on TCQ as a thug. If Greinke had rotated and lowered his shoulder a bit less maybe he sustains no bone break, and the conversation is different. Not that I'm blaming him for not knowing how to set up for a take down, but you can't judge what happened solely by the severity of the injury.

And speaking of how baseball is played, Greinke will have plenty of time to ponder that every now and then it does get a bit physical, that some risks maybe should be thought about. A person with anxiety issues can have bad aspects to their personality just as a person with anger issues can have good ones. I've never liked Greinke and Carlos remains something of a mystery to me. But there's blame to go around here.

Irishsox1
04-12-2013, 12:29 PM
I don't think Grinke threw at TCQ on purpose, but once he hit him, TCQ stared him down and Grinke obviously told him something along the lines of shut up and go to first base. Add that in with the past history between these two and that's it.

It's unfortinuate that Grinke broke his collar bone, but based on the way Grinke pitches, he was going to get charged someday.

CHISOXFAN13
04-12-2013, 12:37 PM
The umpire, while vague because he can't reveal specifics yet, said he threw Greinke out because his job is to "Make sure we get the instigators."

Sam Holbrook must have heard Greinke say something as well.

happydude
04-12-2013, 12:44 PM
Good for Carlos. Generally, guys should charge the mound more. And throw some punches when they get out there instead of all the pathetic wrestling and pushing and shoving they usually do. The threat of a beating is a far bigger deterrent than a suspension with the money these guys make. At least we'd then know who's really ready to stand firm behind the "unwritten rules".

And, yes, I'm aware that maybe in this instance Greinke wasn't throwing at him. If that's the case, given the history between those two he may have considered being a little conciliatory and letting CQ know it was unintentional. At some point enough is enough...

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 12:45 PM
I agree that something was probably said and that we won't find out what it was. Greinke is indeed a bit of a punk and isn't going to say anything that might chill the Righteous Outrage on his behalf and the sportsblabbers dumping on TCQ as a thug. If Greinke had rotated and lowered his shoulder a bit less maybe he sustains no bone break, and the conversation is different. Not that I'm blaming him for not knowing how to set up for a take down, but you can't judge what happened solely by the severity of the injury.

Yes and no. Obviously, the perception of this incident would almost certainly be different had Greinke not injured his clavicle, but that doesn't excuse Quentin's poor judgement in this matter. If Quentin walks to first base (as he should have), there is no altercation and no subsequent Greinke injury. There's also no follow-up incident between Kemp and Quentin that required police intervention to diffuse. Quentin's behavior set the stage for everything that followed his decision to charge the mound, including what happened to Greinke.

And speaking of how baseball is played, Greinke will have plenty of time to ponder that every now and then it does get a bit physical, that some risks maybe should be thought about. A person with anxiety issues can have bad aspects to their personality just as a person with anger issues can have good ones. I've never liked Greinke and Carlos remains something of a mystery to me. But there's blame to go around here.

I'd be careful making these types of statements. Are you implying that Greinke's anxiety played a role in his handling of this situation? Are you suggesting that Greinke's (alleged) throwing at Quentin was triggered by a behavioral problem? That's a slippery slope. It's also difficult to prove.

I don't think Grinke threw at TCQ on purpose, but once he hit him, TCQ stared him down and Grinke obviously told him something along the lines of shut up and go to first base. Add that in with the past history between these two and that's it.

Is there a camera angle that shows Greinke's face? I'd be interested in trying to determine what was said (if anything) to set Quentin off.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-12-2013, 12:50 PM
I'd be careful making these types of statements. Are you implying that Greinke's anxiety played a role in his handling of this situation? Are you suggesting that Greinke's (alleged) throwing at Quentin was triggered by a behavioral problem?

Certainly not; the opposite, in fact. I'm saying that quite apart from having these sorts of problems -- in commenting about which I am always careful, thanks -- Greinke can be a punk. I agree that he was going to get charged someday.

Boondock Saint
04-12-2013, 12:51 PM
After this, is anyone else starting to wonder if Carlos has been on steroids? I don't have any proof, but with all of the outbursts he has, one has to wonder if there's something behind it, especially when you consider his normally calm, quiet demeanor.

The Immigrant
04-12-2013, 12:54 PM
Good for Carlos. Generally, guys should charge the mound more. And throw some punches when they get out there instead of all the pathetic wrestling and pushing and shoving they usually do. The threat of a beating is a far bigger deterrent than a suspension with the money these guys make. At least we'd then know who's really ready to stand firm behind the "unwritten rules".

And, yes, I'm aware that maybe in this instance Greinke wasn't throwing at him. If that's the case, given the history between those two he may have considered being a little conciliatory and letting CQ know it was unintentional. At some point enough is enough...

I agree with this 100%. I'm not happy that Greinke got hurt, but TCQ didn't come flying into him with his cleats up or swinging for his head.

Sometimes it is up to the players to police the game.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-12-2013, 12:55 PM
After this, is anyone else starting to wonder if Carlos has been on steroids? I don't have any proof, but with all of the outbursts he has, one has to wonder if there's something behind it, especially when you consider his normally calm, quiet demeanor.

When would he have gone on them? He was a highly-rated prospect before his injury-prone early years in the Dbacks organization.

The Immigrant
04-12-2013, 12:58 PM
After this, is anyone else starting to wonder if Carlos has been on steroids? I don't have any proof, but with all of the outbursts he has, one has to wonder if there's something behind it, especially when you consider his normally calm, quiet demeanor.

The dude's been hit almost 100 times in his career and this is the first time he's charged the mound. Not how I would expect a 'roid freak to react the first 99 times. To paraphrase KW, TCQ's got a football mentality that he hasn't quite been able to shake.

Boondock Saint
04-12-2013, 01:01 PM
The dude's been hit almost 100 times in his career and this is the first time he's charged the mound. Not how I would expect a 'roid freak to react the first 99 times. To paraphrase KW, TCQ's got a football mentality that he hasn't quite been able to shake.

He's also broken his wrist after hitting his bat because he fouled a pitch off.

blandman
04-12-2013, 01:02 PM
You guys are being a little rough on CQ. Grienke is a punk and has been asking for it for years. Grienke can throw up and in to Carlos as much as he wants and Carlos is basically defenseless. I am glad Carlos stood up for himself.

Throwing up and in is not against the rules. Purposely hitting someone in the head would be. Hard to prove that, but suspensions exist for perception.

What Carlos did was break the rules without a doubt. And I don't care if Greinke called his mother a name, Carlos is 100% the instigator. The pitch was mid level and rode in just enough for someone WANTING to be hit to get hit. After that he walked DIRECTLY TOWARD GREINKE. Of course Greinke is going to say something. If I giant guy was walking at me with a bat, I'd say something too. But charging with the purpose of harming another is inexcusable. As far as I'm concerned, I don't think players that do that should play baseball. I'd suspend him for the year, and have them reapply next season after anger management. Bet the brawls would stop real quick after that. Or at least charging the mound would damn sure mean the guy was really after you. Without real penalties, situations like this where a guy simply doesn't like another guy is going to lead to serious injury.

Good for Carlos. Generally, guys should charge the mound more. And throw some punches when they get out there instead of all the pathetic wrestling and pushing and shoving they usually do. The threat of a beating is a far bigger deterrent than a suspension with the money these guys make. At least we'd then know who's really ready to stand firm behind the "unwritten rules".

And, yes, I'm aware that maybe in this instance Greinke wasn't throwing at him. If that's the case, given the history between those two he may have considered being a little conciliatory and letting CQ know it was unintentional. At some point enough is enough...

This is pretty damn classless.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 01:04 PM
Certainly not; the opposite, in fact. I'm saying that quite apart from having these sorts of problems -- in commenting about which I am always careful, thanks -- Greinke can be a punk. I agree that he was going to get charged someday.

I understand, and thank you for clarifying. My post wasn't meant to accuse you so much as it was intended to facilitate a better understanding of your comments. Thanks again.

As to your comments above, it would be interesting to learn about how Greinke is perceived throughout Major League Baseball. Quentin seems to have had problems with him, and many on this board have taken issue with his behavior in the past, but what do other players, coaches, and team officials think of him?

The article I cited earlier mentions that several Padres players apologized to the Dodgers for what happened. Did that happen because they felt badly about Greinke's injury, or do some of them believe that TCQ was out of line for charging the mound in the first place? Obviously, none of us knows the answer to these questions. If, as you suggest, people believe that Greinke's style was going to land him in trouble, the former would seem more likely than the latter, as I can't imagine Quentin's teammates would have a problem with him taking action in response to something that some of them could relate to.

Brewski
04-12-2013, 01:05 PM
He did a lot of bat hitting up to the point he broke his wrist. It was a gesture he used to express frustration. But he caught it wrong that one time. Playing with fire and it caught up with him.

doublem23
04-12-2013, 01:08 PM
The dude's been hit almost 100 times in his career and this is the first time he's charged the mound. Not how I would expect a 'roid freak to react the first 99 times. To paraphrase KW, TCQ's got a football mentality that he hasn't quite been able to shake.

He's actually been hit 116 times now, which ranks 7th among active players. The guys ahead of him are players like Jason Giambi and Derek Jeter, guys who literally have thousands of more plate appearances than he. Quentin's been hit basically once every 25 times he steps to the plate. Guy just hangs over the plate and doesn't back down.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 01:09 PM
He did a lot of bat hitting up to the point he broke his wrist. It was a gesture he used to express frustration. But he caught it wrong that one time. Playing with fire and it caught up with him.

I think BDS is wondering if there is an underlying reason for his behavior beyond having a bad temper, as these displays of anger are hard to understand.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-12-2013, 01:09 PM
RKM, no problem. As for your question, I don't know. But getting charged someday (which someone might assume is going to happen) is not the same as getting your damn clavicle broken. Lots of players might sympathize with that unusually ****ty outcome.

PatK
04-12-2013, 01:17 PM
Of course Phil Rogers has to remind us how he played for the Sox today

#1swisher
04-12-2013, 01:20 PM
Bob Nightengale
Carlos Quentin likely will be suspended 10 days, and Zack Greinke out two months, and, there will be retribution : http://usat.ly/153BwKc (http://t.co/d7gPz9Nirs)

Los Angeles Dodgers
See you on Monday in Los Angeles: pic.twitter.com/y2E5e4TBzq (http://t.co/y2E5e4TBzq)

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 01:30 PM
Of course Phil Rogers has to remind us how he played for the Sox today

Did Phil leave his vibrator at home by mistake? Honestly, I don't know of anyone who goes out of his way to masturbate to the mistakes or misfortunes of anyone connected to the White Sox organization more than Rogers. Why doesn't he just shut the **** up?

amsteel
04-12-2013, 01:43 PM
Bob Nightengale
Carlos Quentin likely will be suspended 10 days, and Zack Greinke out two months, and, there will be retribution : http://usat.ly/153BwKc (http://t.co/d7gPz9Nirs)


What's the average suspension for a mound charging? Because if TCQ is getting additional punishment because Greinke got hurt, that's ****. If they wanted to punish people for unintended results from possibly dangerous situations every pitcher that hits a batter should be suspended too.

blandman
04-12-2013, 01:47 PM
What's the average suspension for a mound charging? Because if TCQ is getting additional punishment because Greinke got hurt, that's ****. If they wanted to punish people for unintended results from possibly dangerous situations every pitcher that hits a batter should be suspended too.

What this doesn't take into consideration is not so much the injury, but the circumstance. Can you think of a circumstance where a guy charged the mound for no reason having to do with baseball?

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 01:49 PM
Actually, I readily acknowledged that that HBP may have been an accident. However, at this point Carlos isn't inclined to give Greinke the benefit of the doubt; based on their history, no one should be surprised by this, especially Greinke. He could have indicated to Carlos that it was an accident; apparently he didn't.

This being the case, it may not have mattered if Greinke had indicated that he didn't mean to hit Quentin. Food for thought.

EMachine10
04-12-2013, 01:52 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/carlos-quentins-hbp-zone/

Great read on where Quentin's HBPs occur.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 01:52 PM
What's the average suspension for a mound charging? Because if TCQ is getting additional punishment because Greinke got hurt, that's ****. If they wanted to punish people for unintended results from possibly dangerous situations every pitcher that hits a batter should be suspended too.

The problem is that although the result may not have been intended by Quentin, his actions that ultimately led to it were. No one made him charge the mound or take Greinke down, and had he not done either of those things, it's highly unlikely that Greinke breaks his clavicle. It may not be entirely fair, but TCQ could have anticipated the consequences of his actions before taking them.

blandman
04-12-2013, 01:55 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/carlos-quentins-hbp-zone/

Great read on where Quentin's HBPs occur.

I love science.

happydude
04-12-2013, 01:59 PM
This being the case, it may not have mattered if Greinke had indicated that he didn't mean to hit Quentin. Food for thought.

This is definitely true; I'm sure Carlos was on edge going into the game with Greinke. However, Carlos stated that Greinke's body language was a factor in his decision to run at him so that suggests things may have been different had Zack let him know he wasn't trying to hit him. As opposed to, "**** you...take your base" type of stuff.

dickallen15
04-12-2013, 03:13 PM
I would imagine Greinke was mad at least in the past because pitches a few inches off the plate nail Quentin, and since he's hit Quentin before, he's probably said something at some point. So he probably said something maybe it was even sorry, and if Quentin sees his lips moving, it could set him off. Getting hit is no fun, and if the guy who hit you pops off or you think he pops off, it could set you off. People have charged the mound for years. No one gets 10 games. Quentin is getting punished for Greinke getting hurt.

If Greinke threw at Quentin and Quentin broke his hand and missed 2 months, Greinke would get at most a 5 game suspension where he would miss a start. That doesn't seem too fair.

kittle42
04-12-2013, 03:38 PM
After this, is anyone else starting to wonder if Carlos has been on steroids? I don't have any proof, but with all of the outbursts he has, one has to wonder if there's something behind it, especially when you consider his normally calm, quiet demeanor.

His eyebrows are on steroids.

SoxNation05
04-12-2013, 03:39 PM
This thread really shows me how many people on this site have ever played baseball competitively.

Madvora
04-12-2013, 03:43 PM
The thing I haven't notice anybody mention yet is how this started off as a sumo match. I've never seen a hitter and pitcher just bounce off of each other like that. On first contact, neither went for a take down, neither attempted to throw a punch. It was just weird.

ChiSoxGal85
04-12-2013, 03:53 PM
This thread really shows me how many people on this site have ever played baseball competitively.
Care to explain why you feel that way? And I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm truly curious.

Bob Roarman
04-12-2013, 04:05 PM
I agree with this 100%. I'm not happy that Greinke got hurt, but TCQ didn't come flying into him with his cleats up or swinging for his head.

Sometimes it is up to the players to police the game.

Bad.

Noneck
04-12-2013, 04:37 PM
What Id like to see someday is after a caged animal comes storming to mound, a pitcher turn and run for the hills.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 05:01 PM
What Id like to see someday is after a caged animal comes storming to mound, a pitcher turn and run for the hills.

Does Mike Piazza vs. Guillermo Mota ring a bell?

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 05:19 PM
Here's the Grantland breakdown (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/58194/greinke-vs-quentin-the-official-breakdown) of the brawl.

Hitmen77
04-12-2013, 05:24 PM
Paul Konerko defends Quentin:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-paul-konerko-defends-carlos-quentin-20130412,0,6386586.story

SoxNation05
04-12-2013, 05:28 PM
Care to explain why you feel that way? And I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm truly curious.

I guess because the majority of the people here are supporting Grienke and citing unwritten rules of baseball.

Admittably so, I wouldn't have charged the mound in Quentin's situation, I don't think he is a thug or someone dealing with roid rage because he charged the mound. Those opinions are a bit over the top.

Grienke throws at people a lot which I love in a pitcher. Throwing inside and throwing at players is a part of the game and many pitchers do not utilize and Grienke is at advantage doing so. With that in mind, I still have little to no problem with Quentin protecting himself. Pitchers can throw at guys all they want and the hitters can never fight back. Even as a former pitcher I have no problem with giving the hitter the benefit of the doubt. If they think their safety and/or health was purposely put in danger then they should have the right to stick up for themselves.

Plus, in baseball we would hate the other team. If one player did one thing to any of our guys at any point, the whole team would up their intensity and get their fuel from hatred. We would try to find reaons to hate them.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 05:38 PM
Paul Konerko defends Quentin:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-paul-konerko-defends-carlos-quentin-20130412,0,6386586.story

Konerko's oral diarrhea of seasons past seems to have returned. Wonderful! Honestly, Paul, why don't you just shut the **** up? It's too bad PHG isn't around to comment on this. He'd have a field day with it.

MushMouth
04-12-2013, 05:38 PM
gotta love paulie's quote:

"How many times can you let a ball get away from somebody before you go do something? I guess that many. There it is.Ē

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 05:42 PM
I don't love anything about what Konerko said. Why is he talking about what happened between two players who aren't on his team? I know that he was teammates with TCQ, but that doesn't entitle him to comment on something that doesn't pertain to him. After all these years, he still doesn't know when to refrain from whoring himself out to the media. And I thought prostitution was becoming a thing of the past.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 05:46 PM
:walnuts

"Frank Thomas is a bad teammate."

:walnuts

"Juan Uribe faking out Derrick Lee was 'bush league.'"

:walnuts

"Royce Clayton is the best shortstop I've ever played with."

:walnuts

"Magglio Ordonez is the best player I've ever played with."

tstrike2000
04-12-2013, 06:10 PM
An unfortunate incident that wasn't intentional. It's too bad to see Greinke out that long because of this. Not a smart move at all for him to try to lay his left shoulder into TCQ, who's built like a brick craphouse. Carlos got too intense in this situation and could pay a hefty price for it.

SoxNation05
04-12-2013, 06:18 PM
I don't love anything about what Konerko said. Why is he talking about what happened between two players who aren't on his team? I know that he was teammates with TCQ, but that doesn't entitle him to comment on something that doesn't pertain to him. After all these years, he still doesn't know when to refrain from whoring himself out to the media. And I thought prostitution was becoming a thing of the past.

Because Konerko has been abused by pitchers and he knows it. Your comments are unwarranted. Whoring himself out to the media? Where is he making money for talking about this. He stood up for something he believed in. Quentin is getting a lot of **** that he doesn't deserve for this and Paulie, a former teammate or even friend, is sticking up for him.

You question his right to speak about an incident in his own industry and you go on to call him a whore and accuse him of prostitution. Where is your right to do that?

spawn
04-12-2013, 06:19 PM
Konerko's oral diarrhea of seasons past seems to have returned. Wonderful! Honestly, Paul, why don't you just shut the **** up? It's too bad PHG isn't around to comment on this. He'd have a field day with it.

The man has the right to speak his mind when asked. Would you be saying this if he defended Greinke? Probably not. This is only an issue for you because you disagree with him. And considering he's spent more time with Quintin and been up close and personal with the history, I'll listen to what he has to say on the subject.

Noneck
04-12-2013, 06:29 PM
Does Mike Piazza vs. Guillermo Mota ring a bell?

Mota threw his mitt 1st then backed up If I recall. I would love to see a pitcher just turn and sprint to outfield and then do the nah nah, catch me if you can routine.

spawn
04-12-2013, 06:36 PM
I don't love anything about what Konerko said. Why is he talking about what happened between two players who aren't on his team? I know that he was teammates with TCQ, but that doesn't entitle him to comment on something that doesn't pertain to him. After all these years, he still doesn't know when to refrain from whoring himself out to the media. And I thought prostitution was becoming a thing of the past.

You're crossing the line of decency here.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 06:42 PM
Because Konerko has been abused by pitchers and he knows it. Your comments are unwarranted. Whoring himself out to the media? Where is he making money for talking about this. He stood up for something he believed in. Quentin is getting a lot of **** that he doesn't deserve for this and Paulie, a former teammate or even friend, is sticking up for him.

You question his right to speak about an incident in his own industry and you go on to call him a whore and accuse him of prostitution. Where is your right to do that?

I don't have a problem with him showing support for a former teammate. What I have a problem with is Konerko providing extensive commentary about a history that is not his own, although he was present for many of the events that have been discussed in light of last night's altercation. If he had said, "I'm sorry about what happened. I've always had tremendous respect for Carlos Quentin as a baseball player and as a person, and want to voice my support for him as his friend during this difficult time," I wouldn't have had a problem with his remarks. Instead, he decided to weigh in on an issue that no longer has anything to do with him.

The man has the right to speak his mind when asked. Would you be saying this if he defended Greinke? Probably not. This is only an issue for you because you disagree with him. And considering he's spent more time with Quintin and been up close and personal with the history, I'll listen to what he has to say on the subject.

As I've already stated, I don't have a problem with Konerko supporting a former teammate. I simply disagree with his offering an opinion- any opinion- about events that he was not present for. I've yet to see comments from any other Major League player about last night's incident who does not play for the Dodgers or Padres. What makes Konerko so special that he's entitled to analyze the situation when no one else has done so?

If Konerko has the right to speak his mind, I have the right to tell him to shut the **** up.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 06:45 PM
You're crossing the line of decency here.

Because I called Konerko a media-whore? Countless others have done so on this very site on numerous occasions in the past. Be that as it may, I'll refrain from repeating it because you've asked.

dickallen15
04-12-2013, 07:03 PM
I thin the biggest story is Carlos Quentin was in a brawl, someone is going on the DL, and it isn't him.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 07:06 PM
I thin the biggest story is Carlos Quentin was in a brawl, someone is going on the DL, and it isn't him.

Well, that's because Greinke was hit while leading with his left shoulder. Under the circumstances, I don't know that he could have done anything different, as leading with his throwing shoulder could have been disastrous.

Harry Potter
04-12-2013, 07:14 PM
Corey Brock @FollowThePadres (https://mobile.twitter.com/FollowThePadres?p=s)#Padres (https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Padres&s=hash) Carlos Quentin: "I do have a lot of remorse that someone did get hurt. But I will repeat that I felt I had to protect myself."

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 07:22 PM
Corey Brock @FollowThePadres (https://mobile.twitter.com/FollowThePadres?p=s)#Padres (https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=Padres&s=hash) Carlos Quentin: "I do have a lot of remorse that someone did get hurt. But I will repeat that I felt I had to protect myself."

From what? Greinke's mouth? Quentin has already said that he was more upset about what Greinke (allegedly) said to him than he was about being hit. The oral cavity may be crawling with various bacteria, but the danger to TCQ had passed by the time he was hit. No one would have gotten hurt had he walked to first base as directed.

all*star quentin
04-12-2013, 07:36 PM
An objective perspective by Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/zack-greinke-loses-his-head--and-then-use-of-his-pitching-arm/2013/04/12/9e066026-a398-11e2-82bc-511538ae90a4_story.html).

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 08:35 PM
An objective perspective by Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/zack-greinke-loses-his-head--and-then-use-of-his-pitching-arm/2013/04/12/9e066026-a398-11e2-82bc-511538ae90a4_story.html).

Yep. As I said in the post that got split from this one, when you escalate a volatile situation sometimes the other guy kicks your ass and you end up injured. That's why you don't escalate a volatile situation. Greinke should have walked away, kicked some dirt and at least acted contrite. Instead he asked for a fight and he got one. He lost and the Dodgers will pay the price for that stupidity.

dickallen15
04-12-2013, 08:46 PM
From what? Greinke's mouth? Quentin has already said that he was more upset about what Greinke (allegedly) said to him than he was about being hit. The oral cavity may be crawling with various bacteria, but the danger to TCQ had passed by the time he was hit. No one would have gotten hurt had he walked to first base as directed.

No, he is trying to protect himself in future ABs. It will be interesting to see if Greinke throws anywhere near him again. I doubt he really was throwing at him last night, but Quentin wasn't crowding the plate as much as usual.

spawn
04-12-2013, 08:59 PM
Yep. As I said in the post that got split from this one, when you escalate a volatile situation sometimes the other guy kicks your ass and you end up injured. That's why you don't escalate a volatile situation. Greinke should have walked away, kicked some dirt and at least acted contrite. Instead he asked for a fight and he got one. He lost and the Dodgers will pay the price for that stupidity.

Yep. That's how I saw it as well. And he was dumb enough to drop his shoulder at a man running at him that weighs 240lbs. Not very bright.

GlassSox
04-12-2013, 08:59 PM
An objective perspective by Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/zack-greinke-loses-his-head--and-then-use-of-his-pitching-arm/2013/04/12/9e066026-a398-11e2-82bc-511538ae90a4_story.html).

I like it!

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:01 PM
No, he is trying to protect himself in future ABs. It will be interesting to see if Greinke throws anywhere near him again. I doubt he really was throwing at him last night, but Quentin wasn't crowding the plate as much as usual.

If he wants to remain an effective pitcher, he'd better do exactly that. I don't mean that he should throw at Quentin. If he does that after what's happened, he has no one to blame but himself if Quentin attacks him again.

Be that as it may, as soon as hitters realize that he won't pitch inside for fear of hitting them and getting tossed, he's finished as a Major League pitcher. He needs to continue to pitch as exactly as he has been. There's nothing wrong with his command, his pitch sequence, his velocity, or the movement on his pitches. He made a bad pitch to someone who has the mentality of Biff Tannen, and followed that up by provoking Biff because of something he said, when he should have kept his mouth shut.

Quentin asserts that he didn't know what Greinke said, but apparently the sight of his mouth moving was enough to send TCQ over the edge. Perhaps Greinke should wear a muzzle the next time he pitches against San Diego, provided that Quentin doesn't hurt himself trying to channel his pent up rage.

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:08 PM
An objective perspective by Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/zack-greinke-loses-his-head--and-then-use-of-his-pitching-arm/2013/04/12/9e066026-a398-11e2-82bc-511538ae90a4_story.html).

Victim blaming at it's finest.

No, he is trying to protect himself in future ABs. It will be interesting to see if Greinke throws anywhere near him again. I doubt he really was throwing at him last night, but Quentin wasn't crowding the plate as much as usual.

There's an article in this post that shows the science of pitch locations relative to percentage of hits. That pitch doesn't hit anyone. Whatever your perception of that pitch location or Quentin's location at the plate is, it's wrong.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:18 PM
Victim blaming at it's finest.

I don't think so. I don't think Greinke was throwing at TCQ, and although he shouldn't have said anything following the hit batsman, it's hard to understand Quentin's reasoning behind charging the mound when he wasn't even sure what Greinke said to him. Be that as it may, Greinke should not have tried leading with his shoulder to meet someone who outweighs him.

The most common mechanisms of clavicular fracture are as follows:

1. Fall onto shoulder or onto an outstretched hand.

2. Direct impact to the lateral portion of the clavicle, adjacent to the shoulder.

Looking at the video, it seems that Greinke actually experienced both mechanisms of trauma, as he suffered a horizontal impact to the left shoulder (by leading with it), and he was also hit near the lateral aspect of the clavicle. It's not hard at all to see why he suffered the injury. He needs to be smarter about these situations in the future.

There's an article in this post that shows the science of pitch locations relative to percentage of hits. That pitch doesn't hit anyone. Whatever your perception of that pitch location or Quentin's location at the plate is, it's wrong.

:popcorn:

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:21 PM
I don't think so. I don't think Greinke was throwing at TCQ, and although he shouldn't have said anything following the hit batsman, it's hard to understand Quentin's reasoning behind charging the mound when he wasn't even sure what Greinke said to him. Be that as it may, Greinke should not have tried leading with his shoulder to meet someone who outweighs him.

The most common mechanisms of clavicular fracture are as follows:

1. Fall onto shoulder or onto an outstretched hand.

2. Direct impact to the lateral portion of the clavicle, adjacent to the shoulder.

Looking at the video, it seems that Greinke actually experienced both mechanisms of trauma, as he suffered a horizontal impact to the left shoulder (by leading with it), and he was also hit near the lateral aspect of the clavicle. It's not hard at all to see why he suffered the injury. He needs to be smarter about these situations in the future.



:popcorn:

The article seems to blame Greinke for getting hurt because he didn't run away or tip his cap or whatever. That's ludicrous. It's someone fault they're assaulted because they won't lay down for a violent bully who'll beat them up if you don't do what they say?

Maybe the lesson is Greinke should thrown 85 straight down the heart of the plate. That way Quentin won't get mad and attack him.

:angry:

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 09:30 PM
The article seems to blame Greinke for getting hurt because he didn't run away or tip his cap or whatever. That's ludicrous. It's someone fault they're assaulted because they won't lay down for a violent bully who'll beat them up if you don't do what they say?

Maybe the lesson is Greinke should thrown 85 straight down the heart of the plate. That way Quentin won't get mad and attack him.

:angry:

Oh give me a break. What did Quentin do BEFORE Greinke smacked him with a baseball than verbally dared Quentin to do anything about it?

There's lots of these "unwritten rules" in baseball for a reason. You don't taunt the pitcher when you hit a home run and you don't walk toward the guy you just smacked with a baseball and start mouthing off.

You are so wrapped up in this Greinke is a victim thing you can't even consider he did something to provoke the situation.

By your standards no one can ever be held accountable for their actions until things turn violent. How far do we take that ludicrous crap? I could start listing a LOT of times in history the "it's just words" defense has been used but that would turn this political.

Here's the facts...

Greinke smacked TCQ with a baseball.

TCQ stepped out on the infield and took a few steps kind of toward first and kind of toward the mound. He was clearly irritated, but he didn't charge or say anything to Grinke, just glared at him.

Greinke then said (at least) "WHAT?!?!?!?" as he walked off the mound toward TCQ.

Then TCQ charged.

Now who in this situation actually sounds like the "bullly"?

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:34 PM
Oh give me a break. What did Quentin do BEFORE Greinke smacked him with a baseball than verbally dared Quentin to do anything about it?

There's lots of these "unwritten rules" in baseball for a reason. You don't taunt the pitcher when you hit a home run and you don't walk toward the guy you just smacked with a baseball and start mouthing off.

You are so wrapped up in this Greinke is a victim thing you can't even consider he did something to provoke the situation.

By your standards no one can ever be held accountable for their actions until things turn violent. How far do we take that ludicrous crap? I could start listing a LOT of times in history the "it's just words" defense has been used but that would turn this political.

Here's the facts...

Greinke smacked TCQ with a baseball.

TCQ stepped out on the infield and took a few steps kind of toward first and kind of toward the mound. He was clearly irritated, but he didn't charge or say anything to Grinke, just glared at him.

Greinke then said (at least) "WHAT?!?!?!?" as he walked off the mound toward TCQ.

Then TCQ charged.

Now who in this situation actually sounds like the "bullly"?

TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.

TCQ immediately steps forward, at a pace way to fast for someone that didn't expect to get hit. It was entirely premeditated. I've never seen anyone react that fast heading toward the mound.

There is nothing you can say to another human being that validates violence, other than the threat of violence, which I seriously doubt occurred.

Quentin is a thug.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:41 PM
The article seems to blame Greinke for getting hurt because he didn't run away or tip his cap or whatever. That's ludicrous. It's someone fault they're assaulted because they won't lay down for a violent bully who'll beat them up if you don't do what they say?

Maybe the lesson is Greinke should thrown 85 straight down the heart of the plate. That way Quentin won't get mad and attack him.

:angry:

Not at all, as the violent bully has a choice of whether he carries out the assault. People are taught, however, that one must try to avoid situations in which a violent bully may be encountered. As Greinke didn't have a choice about Quentin's being in the San Diego lineup, he had to face him when it was the latter's turn at bat, and as the game was close during Quentin's final at-bat, Greinke did not have the option of intentionally walking him (he may have walked him anyway had he not hit him), because doing so would have put the trying run on base.

Given that Greinke had to face Quentin (and the count was full), it's clear to everyone (except Quentin) that Greinke was trying to record an out. Allowing a base-runner for any reason wasn't something he wanted to do. As it stands, Quentin was hit by the 3-2 pitch, and was awarded first base. Up to this point, I don't Greinke was guilty of any wrongdoing. But then he made his first mistake.

Quentin was starting to walk toward first base, but he was clearly staring out at the pitcher's mound, perhaps thinking of the history between himself and Greinke when the two were playing in the American League. It's possible that his brief reflection was enough to stir old feelings of animosity: we have no way to know for certain. What is known is what happened next, as it's clearly visible in the numerous video replays of the incident.

Greinke says something to Quentin. It looks like he's asking, "What?" This is his initial error. Quentin throws down his bat and starts for the mound. Greinke throws down his glove and assumes a defensive position (which apparently involves his leading with his shoulder). This is his second mistake. Quentin accelerates toward the mound, meeting Greinke in a collison, his midsection colliding with Greinke's left shoulder, presumably the moment in which the latter's clavicle was broken. Quentin throws Greinke to the ground. The two combatants are joined by their teammates, and a brief brawl ensues.

What should Greinke have done differently? He should not have said anything to Quentin. I don't buy TCQ's bull**** claims that Greinke's mouth set him off. He didn't even know what Greinke said to him. I think he was already thinking about a fight- possibly because of the history between himself and Greinke- and his anger got the best of him. Having said that, if Greinke looks at his shoes, there's no additional provocation for Carlos to charge the mound.

Greinke also should not have led with his shoulder, for reasons I've outlined above. I doubt if Greinke knew about common mechanisms of clavicle fracture (although he may know them now), but any pitcher knows the importance of avoiding arm and shoulder injuries, even to the non-throwing side of the body. Did Greinke think the Dodgers would let him pitch anyway?

As to your second point, if Greinke had thrown a meatball down the heart of the plate, I think Mattingly would have attacked him, so that doesn't seem to have been a reasonable alternative. :cool:

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:44 PM
TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.

I have to disagree with you here, munch. TCQ was crowding the plate, and Greinke hit him with the baseball. Quentin just happens to be that .002% you've mentioned, but he didn't throw at himself.

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:46 PM
Not at all, as the violent bully has a choice of whether he carries out the assault. People are taught, however, that one must try to avoid situations in which a violent bully may be encountered. As Greinke didn't have a choice about Quentin's being in the San Diego lineup, he had to face him when it was the latter's turn at bat, and as the game was close during Quentin's final at-bat, Greinke did not have the option of intentionally walking him (he may have walked him anyway had he not hit him), because doing so would have put the trying run on base.


People aren't taught this anymore, in fact people are pretty adamant against this type of thinking nowadays. Laws and business practices that blame victims are the target of civil suits across the country. Which is good, because victim blaming is incredibly ****ty.

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:47 PM
I have to disagree with you here, munch. TCQ was crowding the plate, and Greinke hit him with the baseball. Quentin just happens to be that .002% you've mentioned, but he didn't throw at himself.

According to the article, it's .002% of all players, but .04% when it's Quentin. He's single-handedly making that pitch a statistic.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 09:47 PM
TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.

TCQ immediately steps forward, at a pace way to fast for someone that didn't expect to get hit. It was entirely premeditated. I've never seen anyone react that fast heading toward the mound.

There is nothing you can say to another human being that validates violence, other than the threat of violence, which I seriously doubt occurred.

Quentin is a thug.

I don't know if I would say that but he is clearly the instigator here. His first step after getting hit by a pitch was towards the mound, when Quentin takes his first step Greinke looks towards the first base line in disgust. There is no way that that pitch was thrown with the intent to hit Quentin.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 09:47 PM
TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.

TCQ immediately steps forward, at a pace way to fast for someone that didn't expect to get hit. It was entirely premeditated. I've never seen anyone react that fast heading toward the mound.

There is nothing you can say to another human being that validates violence, other than the threat of violence, which I seriously doubt occurred.

Quentin is a thug.

Then Greinke is an even bigger fool than I said because he picked a fight with a thug. Get over it. Greinke did something stupid. He verbally escalated a volatile situation with someone who by your own admission is a big bad violent man.

At best Greinke deserves to be held up for derision and ridicule for doing that. At worst he shares over 1/2 the blame.

And once again, I point out one simple fact: QUENTIN DID NOT CHARGE UNTIL GREINKE DECIDED TO CHANNEL HIS INNER TROLL.

If Quentin were really a thug wouldn't he have charged the mound before the 117th time he got hit at least once? Maybe? Possibly?

Or is it just because Greinke got injured that makes Quentin a thug?

You'd have to prove Quentin went out of his way to injure Greinke to prove that wouldn't you? How exactly do you plan on doing that?

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:50 PM
People aren't taught this anymore, in fact people are pretty adamant against this type of thinking nowadays. Laws and business practices that blame victims are the target of civil suits across the country. Which is good, because victim blaming is incredibly ****ty.

:popcorn:

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:51 PM
I don't know if I would say that but he is clearly the instigator here. His first step after getting hit by a pitch was towards the mound, when Quentin takes his first step Greinke looks towards the first base line in disgust. There is no way that that pitch was thrown with the intent to hit Quentin.

Completely agree. Whatever Greinke did after hitting Quentin, he clearly didn't mean to hit him.

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:51 PM
Then Greinke is an even bigger fool than I said because he picked a fight with a thug. Get over it. Greinke did something stupid. He verbally escalated a volatile situation with someone who by your own admission is a big bad violent man.

At best Greinke deserves to be held up for derision and ridicule for doing that. At worst he shares over 1/2 the blame.

And once again, I point out one simple fact: QUENTIN DID NOT CHARGE UNTIL GREINKE DECIDED TO CHANNEL HIS INNER TROLL.

If Quentin were really a thug wouldn't he have charged the mound before the 117th time he got hit at least once? Maybe? Possibly?

Or is it just because Greinke got injured that makes Quentin a thug?

You'd have to prove Quentin went out of his way to injure Greinke to prove that wouldn't you? How exactly do you plan on doing that?

Just so we're clear Voodoo, the fact that this is on a baseball field is really the only reason you can even make that statement, hiding behind "unspoken rules". If I'm outside a bar and say something someone else doesn't like and they decide to attack me, it isn't me that's going to jail. It isn't me that's getting sued. Because VIOLENCE is inexcusable. It's inexcusable. Greinke did nothing violent toward Quentin. That pitch wasn't meant to hit Quentin and he knew it. This was one guy trying to take a rival teams star down through violence. And he deserves a lifetime ban for it.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 09:53 PM
I don't know if I would say that but he is clearly the instigator here. His first step after getting hit by a pitch was towards the mound, when Quentin takes his first step Greinke looks towards the first base line in disgust. There is no way that that pitch was thrown with the intent to hit Quentin.

A lot of guys do that. A lot of guys walk off their steam by doing exactly what Quentin did. Maybe it crossed his mind to charge but he didn't until Zach challenged him to.

That timeline is NOT disputable.

In case you don't know it, I'm hard of hearing. I read lips really well. Greinke clearly said "WHAT?!?!?!" before Quentin charged.

He trolled, but he wasn't behind the safety of his computer screen when he did it. This is why cops tell people not to scream at people on the roadways because the other guy might be packing heat.

Does anyone doubt Quentin was irritated? Does anyone say he doesn't have a valid personal reason for feeling that way? I mean he did just get smacked with a 80+MPH baseball (I'm being generous). Then the guy who smacked him started talking trash.

Then the trash talking guy who smacked him got his ass handed to him.

**** happens when you talk trash to people you just caused pain to and sometimes you get your ass kicked when it happens. It's just that simple. This is life.

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:54 PM
A lot of guys do that. A lot of guys walk off their steam by doing exactly what Quentin did. Maybe it crossed his mind to charge but he didn't until Zach challenged him to.

That timeline is NOT disputable.

In case you don't know it, I'm hard of hearing. I read lips really well. Greinke clearly said "WHAT?!?!?!" before Quentin charged.

He trolled, but he wasn't behind the safety of his computer screen when he did it. This is why cops tell people not to scream at people on the roadways because the other guy might be packing heat.

Does anyone doubt Quentin was irritated? Does anyone say he doesn't have a valid personal reason for feeling that way? I mean he did just get smacked with a 80+MPH baseball (I'm being generous). Then the guy who smacked him started talking trash.

Then the trash talking guy who smacked him got his ass handed to him.

**** happens when you talk trash to people you just caused pain to and sometimes you get your ass kicked when it happens. It's just that simple. This is life.

Yes. Science. Article in thread. Hits himself.

Like talking to a brick wall.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:55 PM
You'd have to prove Quentin went out of his way to injure Greinke to prove that wouldn't you? How exactly do you plan on doing that?

Of everything that's been said about this topic, I think this may be the most important point. I've spent most of the afternoon and evening tearing Quentin down for his behavior, but even I acknowledge that I don't believe he meant to injure Greinke. I think he wanted to fight: I'll even accept that he was already thinking about charging the mound before Greinke shouted at him (I suggested as much in an earlier post), but I don't think he went out there with the intention of breaking Greinke's collarbone, and no one can prove that he did.

Furthermore, as I've already explained, Greinke himself provided the mechanism for clavicular fracture by leading with his shoulder to begin with. If he assumes a proper fighting stance, he doesn't break his collarbone.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 09:55 PM
Just so we're clear Voodoo, the fact that this is on a baseball field is really the only reason you can even make that statement, hiding behind "unspoken rules". If I'm outside a bar and say something someone else doesn't like and they decide to attack me, it isn't me that's going to jail. It isn't me that's getting sued. Because VIOLENCE is inexcusable. It's inexcusable. Greinke did nothing violent toward Quentin. That pitch wasn't meant to hit Quentin and he knew it. This was one guy trying to take a rival teams star down through violence. And he deserves a lifetime ban for it.

Okay let's back this up a step...

You are walking down the street. You are holding a baseball. You decide to fire it at a wall. You accidentally hit some guy standing beside the wall. He walks a few steps toward you. Now you look him straight in the eyes and say, "WHAT?!?!?"

What do you think happens next?

Who do you think gets the blame when the cops show up?

The only reason Greinke isn't in jail for assault is because it happened on a baseball field....

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 09:56 PM
Yes. Science. Article in thread. Hits himself.

Like talking to a brick wall.

I couldn't have said it better...

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:58 PM
Okay let's back this up a step...

You are walking down the street. You are holding a baseball. You decide to fire it at a wall. You accidentally hit some guy standing beside the wall. He walks a few steps toward you. Now you look him straight in the eyes and say, "WHAT?!?!?"

What do you think happens next?

Who do you think gets the blame when the cops show up?

The only reason Greinke isn't in jail for assault is because it happened on a baseball field....

If I accidentally hit him with it? I like my chances. Actually had something similar happen in my life (don't wanna go through to much details). Kid dropped a book off a deck and it hit someone. Kid didn't know it did. Guy comes up yelling, kid is confused. Guy beats kid senseless.

That was five years ago. Guy is still in jail.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:58 PM
Yes. Science. Article in thread. Hits himself.

Like talking to a brick wall.

I don't doubt that Quentin has difficulty controlling his anger. BDS mentioned earlier that he broke his wrist smacking the barrel of a bat after fouling off a pitch. That doesn't mean, however, that he doesn't have the right to feel anger if someone has hurt or threatened him. Anger is just as legitimate an emotion as happiness or love. The problem with anger is that it's unpredictable nature often drives people take actions that they later regret, although love often has that effect, as well.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 09:59 PM
Okay let's back this up a step...

You are walking down the street. You are holding a baseball. You decide to fire it at a wall. You accidentally hit some guy standing beside the wall. He walks a few steps toward you. Now you look him straight in the eyes and say, "WHAT?!?!?"

What do you think happens next?

Who do you think gets the blame when the cops show up?

The only reason Greinke isn't in jail for assault is because it happened on a baseball field....

I couldn't have said it better...

:popcorn:

blandman
04-12-2013, 09:59 PM
I don't doubt that Quentin has difficulty controlling his anger. BDS mentioned earlier that he broke his wrist smacking the barrel of a bat after fouling off a pitch. That doesn't mean, however, that he doesn't have the right to feel anger if someone has hurt or threatened him. Anger is just as legitimate an emotion as happiness or love. The problem with anger is that it's unpredictable nature often drives people take actions that they later regret, although love often has that effect, as well.

I think it's significantly more likely he was angry already and going to the plate waiting to lean into a close pitch to do this.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:01 PM
If I accidentally hit him with it? I like my chances. Actually had something similar happen in my life (don't wanna go through to much details). Kid dropped a book off a deck and it hit someone. Kid didn't know it did. Guy comes up yelling, kid is confused. Guy beats kid senseless.

That was five years ago. Guy is still in jail.

Apples to oranges. Greinke clearly knew that he'd hit Quentin with the pitch. The boy in your story was completely unaware of what he'd done, probably because he didn't see where the book landed.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:02 PM
Apples to oranges. Greinke clearly knew that he'd hit Quentin with the pitch. The boy in your story was completely unaware of what he'd done, probably because he didn't see where the book landed.

Um...I doubt that with every fiber of my being. Oh...AND THERE'S AN ARTICLE IN THIS THREAD ON THE PITCH LOCATION NOT BEING ONE THAT HITS PEOPLE.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:02 PM
I think it's significantly more likely he was angry already and going to the plate waiting to lean into a close pitch to do this.

I think that's a stretch (at best), and you're going to have a hard time proving it. What would he have been angry about before the at-bat?

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:03 PM
I think that's a stretch (at best), and you're going to have a hard time proving it. What would he have been angry about before the at-bat?

Being hit by him previously. Actually spoke out publicly about it.

Which is funny. Because the guy's been hit by pretty much every pitcher on the planet.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:05 PM
If I accidentally hit him with it? I like my chances. Actually had something similar happen in my life (don't wanna go through to much details). Kid dropped a book off a deck and it hit someone. Kid didn't know it did. Guy comes up yelling, kid is confused. Guy beats kid senseless.

That was five years ago. Guy is still in jail.

And what's the difference there?

The kid was confused and didn't trash talk the guy.

See this is why arguing with you is impossible you keep making points that sound like they have something to do with the discussion but actually don't. You completely gloss over Greinke's trash talk after the HBP. You ignore it like it just doesn't matter, but it actually DOES MATTER...

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:07 PM
A lot of guys do that. A lot of guys walk off their steam by doing exactly what Quentin did. Maybe it crossed his mind to charge but he didn't until Zach challenged him to.

That timeline is NOT disputable.

In case you don't know it, I'm hard of hearing. I read lips really well. Greinke clearly said "WHAT?!?!?!" before Quentin charged.

He trolled, but he wasn't behind the safety of his computer screen when he did it. This is why cops tell people not to scream at people on the roadways because the other guy might be packing heat.

Does anyone doubt Quentin was irritated? Does anyone say he doesn't have a valid personal reason for feeling that way? I mean he did just get smacked with a 80+MPH baseball (I'm being generous). Then the guy who smacked him started talking trash.

Then the trash talking guy who smacked him got his ass handed to him.

**** happens when you talk trash to people you just caused pain to and sometimes you get your ass kicked when it happens. It's just that simple. This is life.

First off, every replay that I have seen is from the centerfield camera so I do not know how you or anyone else can read Greinke's lips from that angle. In the videos that I have seen, Quentin gets hit at about 18 seconds. At 19 seconds Quentin takes two steps towards Greinke, at 20 seconds Greinke sees Quentin walking towards him and takes a step towards Quentin. He does appear to say something and lifts his head slightly but based on the movement of his shoulders it does not appear to me at least that he shouts anything. At 21 seconds Quentin puts his head down and starts running towards the mound. I think Quentin was going to go out there anyways and if Greinke said "What" it appears to me that based on his body language that it was more along the lines of "What? Do you think I was trying to hit you on a 3-2 pitch?" I don't think that Greinke was trying to troll Quentin, I think Quentin over reacted as he tends to do. And if he thought the Dodgers were trying to hit him last night, wait until he faces them again.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:08 PM
And what's the difference there?

The kid was confused and didn't trash talk the guy.

See this is why arguing with you is impossible you keep making points that sound like they have something to do with the discussion but actually don't. You completely gloss over Greinke's trash talk after the HBP. You ignore it like it just doesn't matter, but it actually DOES MATTER...

What trash talk?

Greinke: I didn't say anything
Quentin: I didn't hear what he said

What trash talk? Even if he did trash talk (and saying What? is more like, why are you walking at me with a bat than anything), trash talk is irrelevant because 1.) Quentin didn't care what he said, obviously and 2.) no amount of trash talk is a legitimate reason for assaulting someone. People go to jail for that.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:08 PM
Um...I doubt that with every fiber of my being. Oh...AND THERE'S AN ARTICLE IN THIS THREAD ON THE PITCH LOCATION NOT BEING ONE THAT HITS PEOPLE.

Calm down. I have seen the article you're talking about. I recognize that Quentin's chances of being hit were small, and that the chances of the average Major League player being hit at that location were even smaller.

TCQ was hit by the pitch because he was crowding the plate, but, as Quentin himself said, he was more upset about what Greinke said to him after he was hit. I'm still skeptical about that, as Quentin also acknowledges that he wasn't sure what Greinke said, and as I've also mentioned, I'll even accept that Quentin wanted to fight as soon as he was hit. I don't, however, think he went to the plate with the intention of letting himself get hit so that he'd have an excuse to pummel Greinke. I'm sorry. That's just too big of a stretch, as all of the stars would have to align, and the universe is not so poorly designed.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:09 PM
Um...I doubt that with every fiber of my being. Oh...AND THERE'S AN ARTICLE IN THIS THREAD ON THE PITCH LOCATION NOT BEING ONE THAT HITS PEOPLE.

No and now you are misrepresenting what the article said.

I'll skip the whole part about where the pitch actually was (outside their area of "scientific comparison") and focus on your comment only. It does hit people. It just doesn't hit them on average as often as it hit's TCQ. You'd have to run a sample of people who players with similar stances to TCQ to really see what it means. You'd also have to then actually talk about the region in question (1.5-2.0 feet off the zone). Finally you'd need to factor in batting mechanics. Some players step more toward the plate than others when they swing.

In comparison to every player who has ever played TCQ gets smacked by a lot of pitches that others don't. This is some kind of serious scientific analysis?

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:10 PM
Calm down. I have seen the article you're talking about. I recognize that Quentin's chances of being hit were small, and that the chances of the average Major League player being hit at that location were even smaller.

TCQ was hit by the pitch because he was crowding the plate, but, as Quentin himself said, he was more upset about what Greinke said to him after he was hit. I'm still skeptical about that, as Quentin also acknowledges that he wasn't sure what Greinke said, and as I've also mentioned, I'll even accept that Quentin wanted to fight as soon as he was hit. I don't, however, think he went to the plate with the intention of letting himself get hit so that he'd have an excuse to pummel Greinke. I'm sorry. That's just too big of a stretch, as all of the stars would have to align, and the universe is not so poorly designed.

I think he's trying to make up a story either way.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:11 PM
Being hit by him previously. Actually spoke out publicly about it.

Which is funny. Because the guy's been hit by pretty much every pitcher on the planet.

I know of the history between the two of them. That doesn't explain why Quentin would chose that particular at-bat to try attacking Greinke. Why would he risk being thrown out of a one-run game that his team has a chance to win? Even a hothead like TCQ understands that his first responsibility is to win baseball games. Otherwise, he'd have gone after Greinke during his first plate appearance.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:11 PM
No and now you are misrepresenting what the article said.

I'll skip the whole part about where the pitch actually was (outside their area of "scientific comparison") and focus on your comment only. It does hit people. It just doesn't hit them on average as often as it hit's TCQ. You'd have to run a sample of people who players with similar stances to TCQ to really see what it means. You'd also have to then actually talk about the region in question (1.5-2.0 feet off the zone). Finally you'd need to factor in batting mechanics. Some players step more toward the plate than others when they swing.

In comparison to every player who has ever played TCQ gets smacked by a lot of pitches that others don't. This is some kind of serious scientific analysis?

However you as a batter act at the plate is inconsequential to the pitcher, who has the same zone every at bat. You pitch the plate, not the stance.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:12 PM
What trash talk?

Greinke: I didn't say anything
Quentin: I didn't hear what he said

What trash talk? Even if he did trash talk (and saying What? is more like, why are you walking at me with a bat than anything), trash talk is irrelevant because 1.) Quentin didn't care what he said, obviously and 2.) no amount of trash talk is a legitimate reason for assaulting someone. People go to jail for that.

Dude, I read lips. He said, "WHAT?!?!?" as in sarcastically. I don't care if you believe me or not. It's as much a fact to me as it would be to you if you were standing 2 feet away from Greinke and could hear him.

Yep people go to jail for assaulting strangers who have done nothing to them. Other people get no punishment at all after being hit with a projectile and then challenged by the person who threw it.

Here's the simple facts one more time...

Quentin shouldn't have charged.

Greinke shouldn't have challenged him to charge.

Greinke shouldn't have led with his shoulder.

You have turned those facts into another crusade...

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:13 PM
I think he's trying to make up a story either way.

So now he's just lying about all of it? To what end? Even if I were to accept your assertions that he was planning to attack and injure Greinke all along, what would be the point of lying about it other than trying to keep himself out of trouble? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here?

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:14 PM
I still say Greinke was a dumbass for lowering his shoulder to absorb Quentin, when he should've started backing up or avoiding him. So instead of avoiding the contact, I guess he decided to prove how much of a bad ass he was by trying to take him on. Worked out well.

And I love the "Quentin is a thug" comment. The man has rushed the mound for the first time after getting hit over 100 times. Screams thug to me!

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:15 PM
However you as a batter act at the plate is inconsequential to the pitcher, who has the same zone every at bat. You pitch the plate, not the stance.

I'm not a pitcher, but I'm not sure about that. Are you suggesting that a pitcher will pitch the same way to Brent Morel as he will to Ryan Howard because the strike zone is the same? I'm not sure I buy that, as they are completely different hitters. By your logic, scouting reports are meaningless, because the strike zone never changes.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:16 PM
Dude, I read lips. He said, "WHAT?!?!?" as in sarcastically. I don't care if you believe me or not. It's as much a fact to me as it would be to you if you were standing 2 feet away from Greinke and could hear him.

Yep people go to jail for assaulting strangers who have done nothing to them. Other people get no punishment at all after being hit with a projectile and then challenged by the person who threw it.

Here's the simple facts one more time...

Quentin shouldn't have charged.

Greinke shouldn't have challenged him to charge.

Greinke shouldn't have led with his shoulder.

You have turned those facts into another crusade...

Quentin shouldn't have charged. It ends at that. That was the violent act, and the only one.

Greinke didn't challenge him to charge. There wasn't enough time for that. Saying "what" in any way isn't saying "come attack me". And Quentin didn't hear it anyway, so it's completely inconsequential.

Shouldn't have led with his shoulder? Right...Just like you shouldn't lead with your face when someone punches you. He was being attacked. You react how you react to lessen the blow.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:18 PM
I'm not a pitcher, but I'm not sure about that. Are you suggesting that a pitcher will pitch the same way to Brent Morel as he will to Ryan Howard because the strike zone is the same? I'm not sure I buy that, as they are completely different hitters. By your logic, scouting reports are meaningless, because the strike zone never changes.

It's the same strike zone in and out. He's gonna throw that riding in fastball to every right handed hitter because it's what you do to jam them. It's the same location for every hitter because he practices throwing it there.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:18 PM
Dude, I read lips. He said, "WHAT?!?!?" as in sarcastically. I don't care if you believe me or not. It's as much a fact to me as it would be to you if you were standing 2 feet away from Greinke and could hear him.

Yep people go to jail for assaulting strangers who have done nothing to them. Other people get no punishment at all after being hit with a projectile and then challenged by the person who threw it.

Here's the simple facts one more time...

Quentin shouldn't have charged.

Greinke shouldn't have challenged him to charge.

Greinke shouldn't have led with his shoulder.

You have turned those facts into another crusade...

How can you tell that? There is only one angle where you can even vaguely see Greinke's lips and that is after Greinke has thrown down his glove and is actively "bracing," for lack of a better term, for Quentin. As Quentin puts his head down and charges he says something to Greinke, Greinke then throws down his glove and says something back and they hit each other.

Initially though Quentin starts walking towards the mound and says something, Greinke sees or hears this, steps towards Quentin and says something and slightly raises his head. His shoulders do not move upwards which would suggest he is not shouting anything. Quentin then says something and runs towards the mound, Greinke throws down his glove and says something and they rumble.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:18 PM
Shouldn't have led with his shoulder? Right...Just like you shouldn't lead with your face when someone punches you. He was being attacked. You react how you react to lessen the blow.
He could've easily avoided that confrontation by running away. You say he was being attacked. Quentin hadn't even gotten to the mound yet. I could see your point if Greinke was getting jumped from behind and didn't see it coming. Instead, what did he do? He stood there, watched him come towards him, dropped his glove, lowered his shoulder, and absorbed the hit.So like you said Quentin hit himself with that pitch...Greinke hit himself with Quentin's shoulder.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:21 PM
Quentin shouldn't have charged. It ends at that. That was the violent act, and the only one.

Greinke didn't challenge him to charge. There wasn't enough time for that. Saying "what" in any way isn't saying "come attack me". And Quentin didn't hear it anyway, so it's completely inconsequential.

Shouldn't have led with his shoulder? Right...Just like you shouldn't lead with your face when someone punches you. He was being attacked. You react how you react to lessen the blow.

He shouldn't have led with his shoulder, as has already been pointed out. Trauma to the shoulder, either via a fall or a direct impact represents one of the two most common mechanisms of clavicular injury. Although I doubt that Greinke knew this before he got hurt, that doesn't erase his mistake.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:21 PM
He could've easily avoided that confrontation by running away. You say he was being attacked. Quentin hadn't even gotten to the mound yet. I could see your point if Greinke was getting jumped from behind and didn't see it coming. Instead, what did he do? He stood there, dropped his glove, lowered his shoulder, and absorbed the hit.

Blaming a victim because they didn't think to run is ridiculous. That's like blaming your parked car for getting rear-ended.

central44
04-12-2013, 10:21 PM
I don't buy for a second that Quentin didn't know what Grienke said. I just don't think he wanted to share it with the press.

Incidents like this happen so often in baseball and this is being blown way out of proportion. It doesn't matter if it would happen in the real world, the bottom line is that a baseball traveling 90+ miles is dangerous. If you suspect a guy threw one of those at you on purpose, you're going to be filled with raw anger and adrenaline. Based on their history and the fact that a Dodger was hit earlier in the game, it's not inconcievable that it could have been intentional, and odds are that was Quentin's first reaction.

Three seconds is not enough time to calm down and let cooler heads prevail, and in the meantime Grienke clearly taunted Quentin--while he was probably livid and pissed off and suspecting it was probably intentional.

Look, everyone knows Grienke is an *******. Every time the Sox would play KC, these gamethreads would be full of "**** you Grienke!" comments each time one of our players had to dive to the ground to avoid a fastball coming at his head--which was quite often. So let's not pretend that Grienke doesn't have a track record, or a history here. He hit Quentin twice before this.

Does that mean that what Quentin did was okay? No. He shouldn't have charged the mound. But Grienke is *hardly* the victim in this. You play with fire and you get burned. He had no reason to taunt Quentin if he didn't intentionally try to hit him. He had no reason to further provoke a guy who was clearly already shaked up and pissed off. And if he hadn't been a dumbass and lowered his shoulder when Quentin charged him, he wouldn't have hurt himself, and this is a non-story like every other time this happens.

The whole thing is so ****ing stupid. 95 mph fastballs up and in do not generally lead to rational outcomes, so it's pointless to come up with a rational explanation for any of it. It was two stupid people being stupid at the same time.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:22 PM
He shouldn't have led with his shoulder, as has already been pointed out. Trauma to the shoulder, either via a fall or a direct impact represents one of the two most common mechanisms of clavicular injury. Although I doubt that Greinke knew this before he got hurt, that doesn't erase his mistake.

Put yourself in his shoes. How would you have braced for that blow?

It's instinctive. It protects your head and spine.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:22 PM
How can you tell that? There is only one angle where you can even vaguely see Greinke's lips and that is after Greinke has thrown down his glove and is actively "bracing," for lack of a better term, for Quentin. As Quentin puts his head down and charges he says something to Greinke, Greinke then throws down his glove and says something back and they hit each other.

Initially though Quentin starts walking towards the mound and says something, Greinke sees or hears this, steps towards Quentin and says something and slightly raises his head. His shoulders do not move upwards which would suggest he is not shouting anything. Quentin then says something and runs towards the mound, Greinke throws down his glove and says something and they rumble.

I've seen the behind the plate video of this also. I don't know where and I'm trying to find it. I can see Greinke's mouth and it's after that mouth moves and says, "what?!?!?" that Quentin charges.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:23 PM
It's the same strike zone in and out. He's gonna throw that riding in fastball to every right handed hitter because it's what you do to jam them. It's the same location for every hitter because he practices throwing it there.

Fine, but that doesn't mean that Quentin allowed himself to be hit by a pitch so he could carry out some sort of premeditated attack. What are you trying to prove here?

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:24 PM
Blaming a victim because they didn't think to run is ridiculous. That's like blaming your parked car for getting rear-ended.

Cars don't drive themselves, munch. This isn't Knight Rider.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:24 PM
I've seen the behind the plate video of this also. I don't know where and I'm trying to find it. I can see Greinke's mouth and it's after that mouth moves and says, "what?!?!?" that Quentin charges.

This is the video that I am looking at, Quentin says something to Greinke first in this video (the one with Vin Scully). Then Greinke responds and Quentin says something as he is running but before he puts his head down.
http://deadspin.com/bench-clearing-brawl-erupts-between-dodgers-and-padres-472600148

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:24 PM
Blaming a victim because they didn't think to run is ridiculous. That's like blaming your parked car for getting rear-ended.
That's pretty damn ridiculous. Most of the time, you can't avoid getting rear ended. Victim my ass. Greinke had plenty of time to avoid that confrontation. He didn't. He welcomed it. It just doesn't fit your argument, so you avoid that little fact.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:24 PM
I don't buy for a second that Quentin didn't know what Grienke said. I just don't think he wanted to share it with the press.

Incidents like this happen so often in baseball and this is being blown way out of proportion. It doesn't matter if it would happen in the real world, the bottom line is that a baseball traveling 90+ miles is dangerous. If you suspect a guy threw one of those at you on purpose, you're going to be filled with raw anger and adrenaline. Based on their history and the fact that a Dodger was hit earlier in the game, it's not inconcievable that it could have been intentional, and odds are that was Quentin's first reaction.

Three seconds is not enough time to calm down and let cooler heads prevail, and in the meantime Grienke clearly taunted Quentin--while he was probably livid and pissed off and suspecting it was probably intentional.

Look, everyone knows Grienke is an *******. Every time the Sox would play KC, these gamethreads would be full of "**** you Grienke!" comments each time one of our players had to dive to the ground to avoid a fastball coming at his head--which was quite often. So let's not pretend that Grienke doesn't have a track record, or a history here. He hit Quentin twice before this.

Does that mean that what Quentin did was okay? No. He shouldn't have charged the mound. But Grienke is *hardly* the victim in this. You play with fire and you get burned. That's what he did. And if he hadn't been a dumbass and lowered his shoulder, he wouldn't have hurt himself, and this is a non-story.

The whole thing is so ****ing stupid. 95 mph fastballs up and in do not generally lead to rational outcomes, so it's pointless to come up with a rational explanation for any of it.

It's like you didn't even watch the video.

There was no 95 mph fastball up and in to instigate this. There was a fastball mid height barely six inches inside that Quentin leaned into.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:26 PM
That's pretty damn ridiculous. Most of the time, you can't avoid getting rear ended. Victim my ass. Greinke had plenty of time to avoid that confrontation. He didn't. He welcomed it. It just doesn't fit your argument, so you avoid that little fact.

No, blaming someone for not avoiding an assault by running away fast enough is what's ridiculous.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:26 PM
That's pretty damn ridiculous. Most of the time, you can't avoid getting rear ended. Victim my ass. Greinke had plenty of time to avoid that confrontation. He didn't. He welcomed it. It just doesn't fit your argument, so you avoid that little fact.

He did welcome it, but there are only a handful of times that I can think of where a pitcher has ever actually ran away. I think Greinke was trying to get low enough to sort of tackle Quentin or at least flip him. That is stupid but I do get where a professional athlete really doesn't want to run away from a guy charging him.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:27 PM
Put yourself in his shoes. How would you have braced for that blow?

It's instinctive. It protects your head and spine.

By backpeddling and waving my hands frantically in front of me saying, "Wait wait wait, sorry, it was an accident, sorry, wait wait wait..." while looking completely freaked out.

I think my shoulder would be just fine.

Edit: Or better yet by turning and walking away and not opening my mouth to escalate the situation prior to the other guy actually charging.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:27 PM
No, blaming someone for not avoiding an assault by running away fast enough is what's ridiculous.
Really? How's that? Answer this question: Could Greinke have avoided the confrontation by running away?

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:28 PM
By backpeddling and waving my hands frantically in front of me saying, "Wait wait wait, sorry, it was an accident, sorry, wait wait wait..." while looking completely freaked out.

I think my shoulder would be just fine.

I don't think that any professional athlete would EVER do that.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:28 PM
I don't think that any professional athlete would EVER do that.
There's an article in this thread where a professional athlete did just run away.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:29 PM
No, blaming someone for not avoiding an assault by running away fast enough is what's ridiculous.

If Greinke actually had run away Quentin would have had to chase him down from behind while all Zach's teammates converged. Then clearly TCQ would be the bad guy in this situation.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:30 PM
No, blaming someone for not avoiding an assault by running away fast enough is what's ridiculous.

No one is saying that Greinke should have run away. People are saying that he shouldn't have said anything in TCQ's direction. That's the difference between his situation and the hypothetical scenario you keep referring to. Assault victims don't scream, "Come over here and beat my ass." Greinke clearly said something to TCQ, and although I don't entirely accept TCQ's version of events, it's obvious that Greinke's mouth was moving. A word (or words) was spoken.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:31 PM
I don't think that any professional athlete would EVER do that.

Well there ya go... Greinke deserves what he got then.

He could have turned and walked away the second Quentin got hit. He could have not glared at the guy he had just smacked with a baseball. He could have done ANY NUMBER of things other than what he did and he might be pitching on Tuesday. He chose to go the other way...

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:31 PM
No one is saying that Greinke should have run away. People are saying that he shouldn't have said anything in TCQ's direction. That's the difference between his situation and the hypothetical scenario you keep referring to. Assault victims don't scream, "Come over here and beat my ass." Greinke clearly said something to TCQ, and although I don't entirely accept TCQ's version of events, it's obvious that Greinke's mouth was moving. A word (or words) was spoken.
No...I said he could've run away and avoided the whole confrontation.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:31 PM
Really? How's that? Answer this question: Could Greinke have avoided the confrontation by running away?

Yes, he could have, as he was surrounded by his teammates. Quentin was on the field alone.

I don't think that any professional athlete would EVER do that.

See below.

There's an article in this thread where a professional athlete did just run away.

Correct.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:32 PM
By backpeddling and waving my hands frantically in front of me saying, "Wait wait wait, sorry, it was an accident, sorry, wait wait wait..." while looking completely freaked out.

I think my shoulder would be just fine.

That's right. Just do whatever bullies say. That's how you don't get assaulted!

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:32 PM
No...I said he could've run away and avoided the whole confrontation.

My mistake. I posted this before I saw your post. I do agree that he could have avoided the fight by trying to run.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:33 PM
That's right. Just do whatever bullies say. That's how you don't get assaulted!

:popcorn:

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:33 PM
Well there ya go... Greinke deserves what he got then.

He could have turned and walked away the second Quentin got hit. He could have not glared at the guy he had just smacked with a baseball. He could have done ANY NUMBER of things other than what he did and he might be pitching on Tuesday. He chose to go the other way...
Yep...he chose confrontation over avoidance. And it cost him.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:34 PM
There's an article in this thread where a professional athlete did just run away.

I have seen YouTube videos of that happening once, so obviously that is the exception. Nolan Ryan did something similar to that back in the 1970s and never really lived it down and publicly vowed that the next time a hitter charged the mound he would fight back, that hitter was Robin Ventura. Other pitchers have taken karate lessons in case they were charged, so I do think there is a sort of macho element involved in at the very least standing your ground.

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:34 PM
My mistake. I posted this before I saw your post. I do agree that he could have avoided the fight by trying to run.

Just so we're all clear here, telling a victim of violence it's their fault because they should/could/maybe it was an option to run away? Not exactly PC...

central44
04-12-2013, 10:35 PM
It's like you didn't even watch the video.

There was no 95 mph fastball up and in to instigate this. There was a fastball mid height barely six inches inside that Quentin leaned into.

Yeah because that little made up number is totally the key idea to what I was trying to say :rolleyes: Stand in a major league batters box and have a pitcher throw inside at you. Pretty sure it's going to leave you shaken up and pissed off regardless of how fast it might be, and i'm guessing that being taunted immediatly after the fact doesn't help matters.

Nobody is saying what Quentin did was right. But making Grienke out to be some helpless, innocent victim is completely ridiculous. He could have acted contrite. He didn't have to start jawing at him right away.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:36 PM
That's right. Just do whatever bullies say. That's how you don't get assaulted!
So then you agree he should've stood up to Quentin and traded violence for violence. You can't have it both ways. You can't call Quentin a thug for what happened when it could've easily been avoided.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:37 PM
Just so we're all clear here, telling a victim of violence it's their fault because they should/could/maybe it was an option to run away? Not exactly PC...

It may not be PC, but if it's the truth, it needs to be said, albeit in a thoughtful and tactful way. Lying and sugarcoating doesn't educate people about how make better choices. It merely encourages people to make the same mistakes all over again.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:37 PM
That's right. Just do whatever bullies say. That's how you don't get assaulted!


LOL!

OMG Munch!

Dude, see lets go back to your point...

This

Was...

On...

A...

Baseball

Field...

Zach had 35 other guys willing to go to the wall to back him up. He had umpires willing to step in and throw people out. He had the full weight of MLB behind him if he simply doesn't open his big... fat... mouth...

He chose to go the other way...

Bad idea, Zach.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:37 PM
Just so we're all clear here, telling a victim of violence it's their fault because they should/could/maybe it was an option to run away? Not exactly PC...
You still haven't answered my question. Could the incident have been avoided had Greinke decided to run away?

blandman
04-12-2013, 10:37 PM
Yeah because that little made up number is totally the key idea to what I was trying to say :rolleyes: Stand in a major league batters box and have a pitcher throw inside at you. Pretty sure it's going to leave you shaken up and pissed off regardless of how fast it might be, and i'm guessing that being taunted immediatly after the fact doesn't help matters.

Nobody is saying what Quentin did was right. But making Grienke out to be some helpless, innocent victim is completely ridiculous. He could have acted contrite. He didn't have to start jawing at him right away.

Once again, facts are wrong. Quentin made the first move by walking at Greinke. Then Quentin talked first. Then, MAYBE, Greinke said "what?". Though some say he said nothing at all.

Not exactly the scenario you're describing.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:38 PM
Yeah because that little made up number is totally the key idea to what I was trying to say :rolleyes: Stand in a major league batters box and have a pitcher throw inside at you. Pretty sure it's going to leave you shaken up and pissed off regardless of how fast it might be, and i'm guessing that being taunted immediatly after the fact doesn't help matters.

Nobody is saying what Quentin did was right. But making Grienke out to be some helpless, innocent victim is completely ridiculous. He could have acted contrite. He didn't have to start jawing at him right away.


DING DING DING!

Winner winner chicken dinner...

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:39 PM
Once again, facts are wrong. Quentin made the first move by walking at Greinke. Then Quentin talked first. Then, MAYBE, Greinke said "what?". Though some say he said nothing at all.

Not exactly the scenario you're describing.

I don't see Quentin say anything from the centerfield camera angle and once again, I read lips pretty damned well. Yeah, he's staring at him, but he's not talking.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:40 PM
Once again, facts are wrong. Quentin made the first move by walking at Greinke. Then Quentin talked first. Then, MAYBE, Greinke said "what?". Though some say he said nothing at all.

Not exactly the scenario you're describing.

Watch the video again. He clearly says something. I'm not as skilled at reading lips as VC, but it does look like he's saying, "What?" There's no question he spoke.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 10:41 PM
Just so we're all clear here, telling a victim of violence it's their fault because they should/could/maybe it was an option to run away? Not exactly PC...

This is drivel...

It has NOTHING to do with what happened. It's so completely off base as to be meaningless...

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:41 PM
Yep...he chose confrontation over avoidance. And it cost him.

Again, Quentin was already walking towards the mound. The situation had already escalated and from every video I have seen Greinke's initial response seemed to be a raise of his head and say something, not shout it. Quentin then started running towards the mound, by that point there was nothing anyone could do to stop the fight. Greinke did throw his glove aside.

There is a sort of macho element that was at play here obviously. I get the sort of psychological need for a pitcher to feel bulletproof and that he owns the plate or the mound or whatever. When a batter is charging the pitcher, he can't just run away. He shouldn't throw his glove aside and get ready to throw down though either, really all he can do is hope that the catcher can get in between him and the batter.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:42 PM
This is drivel...

It has NOTHING to do with what happened. It's so completely off base as to be meaningless...

I don't think it's meaningless, but I do agree that it's far enough off base that it doesn't have anything to do with the matter at hand.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:42 PM
This is drivel...

It has NOTHING to do with what happened. It's so completely off base as to be meaningless...
Yes, but it fits munch's view that Greinke was this hapless victim that didn't see it coming.

If Greinke had been despondent, turned his back, and Quentin attacked...then yes. Victim. That's not at all what happened.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:44 PM
Watch the video again. He clearly says something. I'm not as skilled at reading lips as VC, but it does look like he's saying, "What?" There's no question he spoke.

I think the question is how did he say it. He clearly says two things. The first is when Quentin is walking towards him and he did not appear to be shouting in that video. When Quentin starts running at him, Greinke throws his glove aside and says something else.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:44 PM
Again, Quentin was already walking towards the mound. The situation had already escalated and from every video I have seen Greinke's initial response seemed to be a raise of his head and say something, not shout it. Quentin then started running towards the mound, by that point there was nothing anyone could do to stop the fight. Greinke did throw his glove aside.

He could've either started backpedalling or running the other way. He threw his glove aside, and lowered his shoulder. He wasn't a hapless victim. He welcomed the confrontation. He didn't back down. He's not a victim.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:45 PM
Again, Quentin was already walking towards the mound. The situation had already escalated and from every video I have seen Greinke's initial response seemed to be a raise of his head and say something, not shout it. Quentin then started running towards the mound, by that point there was nothing anyone could do to stop the fight. Greinke did throw his glove aside.

There was time for him to back away, albeit not more than a few seconds.

There is a sort of macho element that was at play here obviously. I get the sort of psychological need for a pitcher to feel bulletproof and that he owns the plate or the mound or whatever. When a batter is charging the pitcher, he can't just run away. He shouldn't throw his glove aside and get ready to throw down though either, really all he can do is hope that the catcher can get in between him and the batter.

I understand the point you're making here, and I actually don't disagree with it. What I have a problem with is that Greinke exposed his shoulder to TCQ while the latter was charging the mound. If he had assumed a proper defensive stance, it's likely his collarbone remains in one piece. He didn't do that.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:50 PM
I think the question is how did he say it. He clearly says two things. The first is when Quentin is walking towards him and he did not appear to be shouting in that video. When Quentin starts running at him, Greinke throws his glove aside and says something else.

Well, TCQ says he didn't hear what was said, so the "how" of the situation doesn't matter. What does matter is that Greinke clearly says a word to Carlos before Quentin attacks him. It's possible that was enough to provoke Carlos, especially if he was already spoiling for a fight. I can believe he thought about fighting Greike. I don't for one moment believe munch's claims that he set up the entire thing.

I also don't entirely believe Quentin's version of events (I've spent the entire day tearing him apart on this board for his stupidity, and Paul Konerko, as well, for defending him), but Greinke isn't blameless. He was there. He could have handled things differently, but he chose to open his mouth, and he chose to leave himself vulnerable to injury.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:52 PM
He could've either started backpedalling or running the other way. He threw his glove aside, and lowered his shoulder. He wasn't a hapless victim. He welcomed the confrontation. He didn't back down. He's not a victim.

By the time Greinke threw his glove to the side, Quentin was charging at him full steam. So no, he is not a "victim" per se but he is not the instigator either.

There was time for him to back away, albeit not more than a few seconds.



I understand the point you're making here, and I actually don't disagree with it. What I have a problem with is that Greinke exposed his shoulder to TCQ while the latter was charging the mound. If he had assumed a proper defensive stance, it's likely his collarbone remains in one piece. He didn't do that.

Yea, I agree with your point that lowering his shoulder was stupid. I am not sure that he knew what the proper defensive stance was though and instinct probably took over. Unless a pitcher has a background in karate or wrestling (like Kyle Farnsworth), they are kind of defenseless at that point. I remember seeing Pedro backpedal and throw his glove at the guy who was charging him when he was with the Expos. I think that was after Pedro just lost a perfect game by hitting a guy too.

Oblong
04-12-2013, 10:53 PM
Quentin's going to find out he doesn't have many friends left in baseball after this. Bud Black was straining to talk about it while having to stick up for his guy. Carlos is a marked man now and the pitching fraternity will be after him.

spawn
04-12-2013, 10:54 PM
By the time Greinke threw his glove to the side, Quentin was charging at him full steam. So no, he is not a "victim" per se but he is not the instigator either.

I never said he was the instigator. Quentin was clearly that by charging the mound. But as he was, Greinke could've backpedaled or turned and ran. He could've done either in the time it took him to drop his glove and lower his shoulder. But we agree that he wasn't a victim here.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Well, TCQ says he didn't hear what was said, so the "how" of the situation doesn't matter. What does matter is that Greinke clearly says a word to Carlos before Quentin attacks him. It's possible that was enough to provoke Carlos, especially if he was already spoiling for a fight. I can believe he thought about fighting Greike. I don't for one moment believe munch's claims that he set up the entire thing.

I also don't entirely believe Quentin's version of events (I've spent the entire day tearing him apart on this board for his stupidity, and Paul Konerko, as well, for defending him), but Greinke isn't blameless. He was there. He could have handled things differently, but he chose to open his mouth, and he chose to leave himself vulnerable to injury.

This is really getting into minutia here, but I think the fact that Quentin took his first step towards the mound shows he was ready for a fight. Greinke did say something but based solely on his body language I don't think it was INTENDED to be confrontational. I also doubt that it was intended to be apologetic either.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Yea, I agree with your point that lowering his shoulder was stupid. I am not sure that he knew what the proper defensive stance was though and instinct probably took over. Unless a pitcher has a background in karate or wrestling (like Kyle Farnsworth), they are kind of defenseless at that point. I remember seeing Pedro backpedal and throw his glove at the guy who was charging him when he was with the Expos. I think that was after Pedro just lost a perfect game by hitting a guy too.

The instinctive response is to raise one's hands in front of the face and upper-body. I just had my girlfriend run toward me with her fists up to test the idea. Before I even realized what I'd done, my hands were in front of my face, and I'd gone to something resembling a basketball defensive crouch, with my feet aligned with my shoulders. Granted, I'm not a pitcher and have no throwing arm to protect, but what Greinke did makes absolutely no sense.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Quentin's going to find out he doesn't have many friends left in baseball after this. Bud Black was straining to talk about it while having to stick up for his guy. Carlos is a marked man now and the pitching fraternity will be after him.

Oh if he thought they were throwing at him before wait until he faces the Dodgers again. It's probably worth pointing out that in the first inning Marquis threw a 1-2 pitch up around the head of Matt Kemp, so I think the Dodgers are going to REALLY have it out for Quentin.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Quentin's going to find out he doesn't have many friends left in baseball after this. Bud Black was straining to talk about it while having to stick up for his guy. Carlos is a marked man now and the pitching fraternity will be after him.

:walnuts

"I'm still his friend."

:ohno

"Don't remind us."

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 10:59 PM
The instinctive response is to raise one's hands in front of the face and upper-body. I just had my girlfriend run toward me with her fists up to test the idea. Before I even realized what I'd done, my hands were in front of my face, and I'd gone to something resembling a basketball defensive crouch, with my feet aligned with my shoulders. Granted, I'm not a pitcher and have no throwing arm to protect, but what Greinke did makes absolutely no sense.

I think he was trying to get low enough to flip Quentin or tackle him like Farnsworth did to that guy from Cincinnati back in 2003, of course I think Farnsworth was a lot bigger than the guy charging him.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 11:01 PM
This is really getting into minutia here, but I think the fact that Quentin took his first step towards the mound shows he was ready for a fight. Greinke did say something but based solely on his body language I don't think it was INTENDED to be confrontational. I also doubt that it was intended to be apologetic either.

Oh, I agree completely that Quentin was ready for a fight, but there's a difference (albeit a small one) between being ready to fight and actually going through with it. Having said that, I also think Quentin has anger management issues and eventually would have snapped regardless of who was pitching.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 11:01 PM
I think he was trying to get low enough to flip Quentin or tackle him like Farnsworth did to that guy from Cincinnati back in 2003, of course I think Farnsworth was a lot bigger than the guy charging him.

Paul Wilson, if I remember correctly, formerly the number-one overall pick by the New York Mets.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 11:04 PM
Oh, I agree completely that Quentin was ready for a fight, but there's a difference (albeit a small one) between being ready to fight and actually going through with it. Having said that, I also think Quentin has anger management issues and eventually would have snapped regardless of who was pitching.

Yea, I think that Greinke (or anyone) could have said "Sorry that pitch got away from me, are you okay?" and he STILL would have charged the mound. I think after a batter takes something like two steps towards the mound they have crossed the point of no return, they are going to go to the mound unless the catcher tackles them first.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 11:07 PM
Yea, I think that Greinke (or anyone) could have said "Sorry that pitch got away from me, are you okay?" and he STILL would have charged the mound. I think after a batter takes something like two steps towards the mound they have crossed the point of no return, they are going to go to the mound unless the catcher tackles them first.

First base is "on the way to the mound" at least roughly.

RKMeibalane
04-12-2013, 11:09 PM
Yea, I think that Greinke (or anyone) could have said "Sorry that pitch got away from me, are you okay?" and he STILL would have charged the mound. I think after a batter takes something like two steps towards the mound they have crossed the point of no return, they are going to go to the mound unless the catcher tackles them first.

I actually think that's what happened with Robin Ventura when he fought with Nolan Ryan. He was hit and made the decision to charge the mound, but realized when he got to the mound that he was about to hit Nolan Ryan and froze, leaving an opening for Ryan to wrap him up.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 11:13 PM
First base is "on the way to the mound" at least roughly.

If you're Tony Bautista maybe, but Quentin was in no way shape or form heading towards first when he got by that pitch.

0yj61vi40WE

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 11:13 PM
I actually think that's what happened with Robin Ventura when he fought with Nolan Ryan. He was hit and made the decision to charge the mound, but realized when he got to the mound that he was about to hit Nolan Ryan and froze, leaving an opening for Ryan to wrap him up.

I think that that is exactly what happened, I think he has been quoted as saying that that is what happened.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 11:17 PM
If you're Tony Bautista maybe, but Quentin was in no way shape or form heading towards first when he got by that pitch.



He also wasn't charging the mound until Greinke started mouthing off. And since you aren't TCQ your speculation about what he was going to do if Greinke had remained silent is kind of moot.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 11:23 PM
He also wasn't charging the mound until Greinke started mouthing off. And since you aren't TCQ your speculation about what he was going to do if Greinke had remained silent is kind of moot.

It is, but he was walking towards the mound before Greinke even looked at him. Walking towards the mound is an escalation right there, Quentin has been hit enough to know that. He also has been hit enough that he should know that a guy isn't going to be hitting him intentionally on a 3-2 count in the late innings with a runner on first and nobody out. Quentin started it, Greinke may or may not have escalated it by shouting something, but Quentin took the first step to escalate matters.

voodoochile
04-12-2013, 11:41 PM
It is, but he was walking towards the mound before Greinke even looked at him. Walking towards the mound is an escalation right there, Quentin has been hit enough to know that. He also has been hit enough that he should know that a guy isn't going to be hitting him intentionally on a 3-2 count in the late innings with a runner on first and nobody out. Quentin started it, Greinke may or may not have escalated it by shouting something, but Quentin took the first step to escalate matters.

Okay, so you at least admit Greinke shares some blame. That's all I really care about. The rest is deciding how much blame and that's not worth it to me.

My point all along is that to paint Greinke as purely a victim here is poor logic.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2013, 11:55 PM
Okay, so you at least admit Greinke shares some blame. That's all I really care about. The rest is deciding how much blame and that's not worth it to me.

My point all along is that to paint Greinke as purely a victim here is poor logic.

I found a video from behind homeplate. Again you can see Quentin get hit and take his first step towards the mound at 38 seconds. Greinke is walking off the mound towards first base which is where he normally lands during his follow through. As Quentin is taking his first step towards Greinke, Greinke looks at Quentin - aware that Quentin is saying something to him and approaching him. It does appear to be "What" but based on his body language it does not appear that he is shouting or trolling. After this Quentin starts running towards the mound, Greinke appears to say something while he tosses his glove aside. The home plate view is about 36 seconds in.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9163255&categoryid=2378529

An article on ESPN pointed out that usually a catcher or an umpire can tell when a pitch is intentional or at least could be perceived as such, and will get in between the hitter and the pitcher. In this case neither did that, Ellis in particular seems surprised.

I blame Greinke for throwing his glove aside and lowering his shoulder but the rest is on Quentin.

doublem23
04-13-2013, 12:33 AM
What trash talk?

Greinke: I didn't say anything
Quentin: I didn't hear what he said

What trash talk? Even if he did trash talk (and saying What? is more like, why are you walking at me with a bat than anything), trash talk is irrelevant because 1.) Quentin didn't care what he said, obviously and 2.) no amount of trash talk is a legitimate reason for assaulting someone. People go to jail for that.

:rolling:

Good heavens

It must be so nice to live in such a black and white world where everything is crystal clear all of the time. Was Quentin at fault? Sure, that's why he's getting a relatively huge suspension. But to state that Greinke was an innocent bystander in all of this is absurd. And frankly, to equate a baseball brawl to ACTUAL, real life people who are hurt, injured, arrested, killed, etc. in REAL LIFE random acts of violence is frankly, a thousand times more classless and insulting than anything anyone has said to the way PLAYERS police their GAME in the contexts of that GAME. These are grown men playing a children's game. Pretending like there's any sort of connection between this and the real world the rest of us live in is just nonsense. Baseball's not real life, dude.

getonbckthr
04-13-2013, 05:05 AM
Something I noticed and will probably be paying more attention to in the future is look at the catcher and where he set up. He sets up low and outside ZG misses up and in. Thats a pretty big miss by ZG.

DrCrawdad
04-13-2013, 08:49 AM
:rolling:

Good heavens

It must be so nice to live in such a black and white world where everything is crystal clear all of the time. Was Quentin at fault? Sure, that's why he's getting a relatively huge suspension. But to state that Greinke was an innocent bystander in all of this is absurd. And frankly, to equate a baseball brawl to ACTUAL, real life people who are hurt, injured, arrested, killed, etc. in REAL LIFE random acts of violence is frankly, a thousand times more classless and insulting than anything anyone has said to the way PLAYERS police their GAME in the contexts of that GAME. These are grown men playing a children's game. Pretending like there's any sort of connection between this and the real world the rest of us live in is just nonsense. Baseball's not real life, dude.

Thank you!

The Immigrant
04-13-2013, 09:57 AM
Something I noticed and will probably be paying more attention to in the future is look at the catcher and where he set up. He sets up low and outside ZG misses up and in. Thats a pretty big miss by ZG.

Completely accidental, I'm sure. Don Mattingly said so, along with a whole bunch of experts in this thread. :rolleyes:

spawn
04-13-2013, 09:59 AM
Something I noticed and will probably be paying more attention to in the future is look at the catcher and where he set up. He sets up low and outside ZG misses up and in. Thats a pretty big miss by ZG.

Completely accidental, I'm sure. Don Mattingly said so, along with a whole bunch of experts in this thread. :rolleyes:
Hey, that pitch just got away from him. Everybody is sayign so. Not intentional. What do you guys know? :redneck

Seriously, I don't know if he meant to hit him with that pitch or not. But it's not out of the realm of possibility that he did.

RKMeibalane
04-13-2013, 10:43 AM
Completely accidental, I'm sure. Don Mattingly said so, along with a whole bunch of experts in this thread. :rolleyes:

Mattingly isn't infallible, and I don't think anyone here believes that he is. Having said that, I can't think of anyone who epitomized what it meant to play the game of baseball the right way more than Don Mattingly during his career with the Yankees. Everybody respected him. If he says that he didn't think the hit batsman was intentional, I believe him.

Domeshot17
04-13-2013, 10:59 AM
Anyone defending Quentin here is doing so because he played for the White Sox at one point, plain and simple.

I loved Carlos for his time on the Sox, I like Greinke just fine, but Q overreacted to the situation (as he is very well known to do) and it was bad.

I think Kemp should have gotten a game, but I would want my teammate to be that heated too if it was me.

Whatever, it plays out the Quentin will miss a week, and Greinke essentially gets an 8 week suspension, not exactly justice.

RKMeibalane
04-13-2013, 11:05 AM
Anyone defending Quentin here is doing so because he played for the White Sox at one point, plain and simple.

I loved Carlos for his time on the Sox, I like Greinke just fine, but Q overreacted to the situation (as he is very well known to do) and it was bad.

I think Kemp should have gotten a game, but I would want my teammate to be that heated too if it was me.

Whatever, it plays out the Quentin will miss a week, and Greinke essentially gets an 8 week suspension, not exactly justice.

I agree, and I'm surprised no suspension was issued, especially after law enforcement was used to keep him away from Quentin following the game.

I don't know that people are defending Quentin solely because he played for the White Sox, although that seems to be why Paul Konerko decided to spill his guts (again) to reporters yesterday, in spite of the fact that no other Major League players not playing for Los Angeles or San Diego have weighed in on the subject. I won't repeat what I called Konerko earlier because I promised that I wouldn't, but I maintain that he should shut the **** up. He just can't help himself anytime someone sticks an elongated, cylindrical object near his mouth.

doublem23
04-13-2013, 11:51 AM
I don't know that people are defending Quentin solely because he played for the White Sox, although that seems to be why Paul Konerko decided to spill his guts (again) to reporters yesterday, in spite of the fact that no other Major League players not playing for Los Angeles or San Diego have weighed in on the subject. I won't repeat what I called Konerko earlier because I promised that I wouldn't, but I maintain that he should shut the **** up. He just can't help himself anytime someone sticks an elongated, cylindrical object near his mouth.

Oh, bull****, he's asked a question and he answered it truthfully. Imagine what a world we live in where people are scolded for displaying candor with the press instead of the usual half-assed, bull**** answers we're used to being fed.

I don't even think you understand the definition of a "whore," anyway. What is Konerko's long term pay off here? Is he angling to land some kind of huge TV show deal when his playing days are over? Or is he just a guy who answers questions honestly when asked of him? What a douchebag!!!

The Immigrant
04-13-2013, 12:02 PM
I don't know that people are defending Quentin solely because he played for the White Sox, although that seems to be why Paul Konerko decided to spill his guts (again) to reporters yesterday, in spite of the fact that no other Major League players not playing for Los Angeles or San Diego have weighed in on the subject. I won't repeat what I called Konerko earlier because I promised that I wouldn't, but I maintain that he should shut the **** up. He just can't help himself anytime someone sticks an elongated, cylindrical object near his mouth.

Oh sweet jeebus, give it a rest. I wish more athletes gave a straight answer when asked a question.

fram40
04-13-2013, 12:05 PM
Oh, bull****, he's asked a question and he answered it truthfully. Imagine what a world we live in where people are scolded for displaying candor with the press instead of the usual half-assed, bull**** answers we're used to being fed.

I don't even think you understand the definition of a "whore," anyway. What is Konerko's long term pay off here? Is he angling to land some kind of huge TV show deal when his playing days are over? Or is he just a guy who answers questions honestly when asked of him? What a douchebag!!!

ala Lovie Smith? or the "upper body injury" hockey coaches talk about.

Konerko was asked a question abut an ex-teammate and he answered it honestly. From his POV - relating his history as TCQ's teammate and a longtime Grienke opponent. And some are giving PK grief over this? Wow.

RKMeibalane
04-13-2013, 12:15 PM
Oh, bull****, he's asked a question and he answered it truthfully. Imagine what a world we live in where people are scolded for displaying candor with the press instead of the usual half-assed, bull**** answers we're used to being fed.

Let me be absolutely clear. I don't have a problem with Konerko answering a question truthfully. My problem stems for his discussing it at all, given that no one not wearing a Padres or Dodgers uniform has spoken about it. I know that Quentin and Konerko were teammates, and I don't have a problem with Paul wanting to offer support for someone whom he may consider a friend. What I don't like, however, is that Konerko chose to provide extended commentary on a subject that had nothing to do with him.

If he had said, "I am sorry about what happened, as incidents like these are never good for the game of baseball. I don't agree with what Carlos did, but I understand why he did it. I played with him. He's my friend, and he has my support as a friend. The rest is my business," I wouldn't have an issue with this, but instead, he chose to provide his opinion without even pausing to consider whether doing so was warranted. Yes, someone put a microphone in front of him, but that doesn't mean it was appropriate for him to speak into it.

The media exist to write stories and sell a product, but anyone who believes that those people approach their jobs with anything resembling integrity is fooling themselves. How many sports reporters and writers have been permanently banished to the ****house because WSI staff members have decided that their material isn't worth paying attention to? What does that say about how much credibility the staff of this message board attaches to their work? Yet, it's okay for Paul Konerko to keep feeding the trolls because one of them decided to come out from under his bridge and pay Konerko a visit?

Konerko's been in hot water before- on this very site, no less- because he couldn't stop himself from running his mouth to the media. He answered questions on those topics honestly, too. That doesn't mean he was right in what he said, because most people agreed that he shouldn't have said anything at all.

I don't even think you understand the definition of a "whore," anyway. What is Konerko's long term pay off here?

His pay-off is attention. The more he opens his mouth, the more likely it is that the media comes back to him for comments on other issues. The media are happy to talk to Konerko because he gives them material to write about, and as long as that doesn't change, they'll continue to use his a resource.

Is he angling to land some kind of huge TV show deal when his playing days are over? Or is he just a guy who answers questions honestly when asked of him? What a douchebag!!!

I don't know if Konerko wants to be on TV after he's finished playing, but given that seemingly anyone who played Major League Baseball is allowed to work in television in some capacity when his career is over, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he were offered a job. If complete idiots like Ed Farmer and Darren Jackson- who spends the majority of Sox radio broadcasts singing- can get a job, I'm sure there will be something available for Konerko. I'm also sure we won't have to wait long for him to throw one of his former teammates under the bus because he doesn't have enough self-control to keep his mouth shut.

RKMeibalane
04-13-2013, 12:16 PM
Oh sweet jeebus, give it a rest. I wish more athletes gave a straight answer when asked a question.

Read my most recent post about this, which is a few places below yours.