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View Full Version : **Official**Tank Walkoff sends everyone home happy.


LITTLE NELL
04-07-2013, 05:15 PM
Great way to end the homestand. All runs today on homers for both teams.
What a week for Reed, 3 saves and a win.

soxnut1018
04-07-2013, 05:17 PM
Stupid homeruns. :angry:

Tlou_2lMLAc

voodoochile
04-07-2013, 05:19 PM
:hawk:
"Swing hard in case you hit it boys!"

:soxwin:

Tank you very much...

October26
04-07-2013, 05:19 PM
Got home just in time to see Addison Reed get the last out in the top of the 10th and Dayan Viciedo hit the walk-off homer in the bottom of the 10th. Woo-hoo, way to go, Tank!! :bandance:Sox win!! :D:

Rikirk
04-07-2013, 05:20 PM
Seeing them all jump about at home plate after Tanks bomb reminded me of 1983...:rolleyes:

KnightSox
04-07-2013, 05:21 PM
Sale battled and another nice outing by Reed.

Thanks Tank!

russ99
04-07-2013, 05:22 PM
Stupid homeruns. :angry:



Lol. Won the series again. This team could be something if the offense ever wakes up.

Lip Man 1
04-07-2013, 05:25 PM
Pretty good first week of play. Just win series and you'll be OK. Nice to see them actually win an extra inning game for a change.

Now it's the first road trip and it won't be easy.

Just saw where Peavy said the team is renting a room at the hotel where they are staying in D.C. tomorrow night to watch the men's NCAA basketball championship game.

Will be a nice team bonding experience.

I think the Sox will miss Strasberg.

Lip

doublem23
04-07-2013, 05:37 PM
Bought a new hat, saw a Sox walk-off, caught a foul ball... Pretty much the best day at the park ever

HomeFish
04-07-2013, 05:41 PM
I think the Sox will miss Strasberg.


Stras pitched today; Sox should get Gio Gonzalez, Jordan Zimmermann, and Dan Haren in Washington.

Soxman219
04-07-2013, 05:41 PM
Knew it was gone the minute Tank hit it.:bandance:

Bucky F. Dent
04-07-2013, 05:43 PM
Bought a new hat, saw a Sox walk-off, caught a foul ball... Pretty much the best day at the park ever

Good Day!

voodoochile
04-07-2013, 05:45 PM
Bought a new hat, saw a Sox walk-off, caught a foul ball... Pretty much the best day at the park ever

Gratz on the ball I still have never got one, came close a couple times but it was not to be...

blandman
04-07-2013, 05:47 PM
Knew it was gone the minute Tank hit it.:bandance:

Bench him! :D:

blandman
04-07-2013, 05:47 PM
Stras pitched today; Sox should get Gio Gonzalez, Jordan Zimmermann, and Dan Haren in Washington.

There is no forgiveness in that rotation. Yikes.

HomeFish
04-07-2013, 05:55 PM
Dan Haren was pretty forgiving against the Reds in his last start. But yeah, Gio and Zimmermann are pretty good. Gio struggles with control sometimes and has issues going deep into games, though.

LoveYourSuit
04-07-2013, 06:03 PM
There is no forgiveness in that rotation. Yikes.

Yes, Dan Haren.

Tragg
04-07-2013, 06:11 PM
I like this Gillespie. Keep him in the lineup.

Zakath
04-07-2013, 06:25 PM
Nice to see Rios is carrying 2012 into 2013, with some big hits this week. I'd almost say AL Player of the Week, but Chris Davis for the Orioles has just gone ape **** all week.

Noneck
04-07-2013, 06:35 PM
Nice start to season. It will interesting now to see the Sox vs. Washington and Toronto. Give me a .500 road stand and Ill be as happy as a pig in poop.

Chez
04-07-2013, 06:39 PM
But for the dropped third strike to Ramirez in the 9th, Sox would have not left a runner on base the entire game! Fun day at the park. A quick, well-pitched game. Lindstrom looks like a welcome addition to the bullpen.

LITTLE NELL
04-07-2013, 06:55 PM
Nice start to season. It will interesting now to see the Sox vs. Washington and Toronto. Give me a .500 road stand and Ill be as happy as a pig in poop.

Don't forget Cleveland, it's a 10 game trip. .500 on the road is always good.

Zakath
04-07-2013, 06:59 PM
Don't forget Cleveland, it's a 10 game trip. .500 on the road is always good.

Steal one in DC, take 2 of 3 from the Tribe, and split in Canada.

I'd take that.

ElevenUp
04-07-2013, 07:02 PM
Just got back from the game with my kids. I made the decision to go this morning and definitely don't regret it. Viciedo's walk off was a no doubter. the game was well-pitched and was pretty fast. 3 hours for an extra inning game worked for me as the temperature was starting to dip towards the end. Just keep winning series and I'll be happy.

Golden Sox
04-07-2013, 07:05 PM
I realized a very long time ago that the White Sox will never get a fair shake in this city with the media. But it still pisses me off at times. The first place White Sox win todays game with a walk off home run by the Tank. The bad guys on the Northside just got swept today in Atlanta. Channel 7's 5 o'clock news opens there sports segment featuring the Cubs loss and Channel 2's 5.30 news opens there sports segment featuring the Cubs loss also. This certainly has to upset the White Sox management when your first place team plays second fiddle in the media to a team thats going to lose 100 games again.

Ron Karkovice
04-07-2013, 07:06 PM
I realized a very long time ago that the White Sox will never get a fair shake in this city with the media. But it still pisses me off at times. The first place White Sox win todays game with a walk off home run by the Tank. The bad guys on the Northside just got swept today in Atlanta. Channel 7's 5 o'clock news opens there sports segment featuring the Cubs loss and Channel 2's 5.30 news opens there sports segment featuring the Cubs loss also. This certainly has to upset the White Sox management when your first place team plays second fiddle in the media to a team thats going to lose 100 games again.

Oh well. Just like the usual-poor attendance, I/we should be used to this.

ElevenUp
04-07-2013, 07:11 PM
Bought a new hat, saw a Sox walk-off, caught a foul ball... Pretty much the best day at the park ever

I saw someone make a nice grab on a looping liner in roughly section 123-124 area. Was that you?

Lemon44
04-07-2013, 07:30 PM
Great win - we were at the game, too. Dunn really killed that ball in the first; I don't know how far it would have gone in the summer. He's 48th on the all-time homer list. What really kept the game moving was the lack of foul balls. Both teams were making solid contact.

Brian26
04-07-2013, 07:34 PM
Bought a new hat, saw a Sox walk-off, caught a foul ball... Pretty much the best day at the park ever

When did you catch the foul? What section?

doublem23
04-07-2013, 07:47 PM
When did you catch the foul? What section?

Section 135, basically behind the plate, just off center so you're looking straight down the 1B line, De Aza hit a ball back in the 9th that bounced off the press box that I snagged.

JB98
04-07-2013, 07:53 PM
It's good to see Addison Reed off to a strong start this season. Three saves and a win in four scoreless appearances this homestand. I think he's the key to the Sox bullpen. If he locks down the closer's job and pitches consistently, everything else is going to fall into place in the late innings. With the addition of Lindstrom (an excellent signing), Robin has a lot of different options this year.

SCCWS
04-07-2013, 08:17 PM
Gratz on the ball I still have never got one, came close a couple times but it was not to be...

Wait a minute. If you got a ball, wouldn't you give it to the closest kid, relative or not, near you???

C-Dawg
04-07-2013, 08:30 PM
Just got back from the game with my kids. I made the decision to go this morning and definitely don't regret it. Viciedo's walk off was a no doubter. the game was well-pitched and was pretty fast. 3 hours for an extra inning game worked for me as the temperature was starting to dip towards the end.

No doubt on that! We were in the sun for a couple innings then when it went behind the upper concourse the temperature felt like it dropped 30 degrees! I was kicking myself for nor bringing my nice gray Sox dugout jacket. But its all good since this game breaks a personal losing streak - its been about four in a row they've lost that I've been to.

RKMeibalane
04-07-2013, 08:30 PM
Wait a minute. If you got a ball, wouldn't you give it to the closest kid, relative or not, near you???

That's what I'd do, as I don't have much use for baseballs.

The one exception to the rule would be if I caught someone's milestone home run ball, in which case I'd hand the ball over to security in exchange for whatever the player in question was willing to trade. Honestly, though, if I had the chance to meet a Major League player to give him his home run ball, I'd probably settle for a picture and maybe a few minutes of small talk. To me, those experiences are worth more (emotionally) than a signed bat or ball.

Zakath
04-07-2013, 08:31 PM
It's good to see Addison Reed off to a strong start this season. Three saves and a win in four scoreless appearances this homestand. I think he's the key to the Sox bullpen. If he locks down the closer's job and pitches consistently, everything else is going to fall into place in the late innings. With the addition of Lindstrom (an excellent signing), Robin has a lot of different options this year.

It's always seemed that the best way to build a bullpen is from the back end first. Get your closer locked down, then your set-up men.

LITTLE NELL
04-07-2013, 08:50 PM
That's what I'd do, as I don't have much use for baseballs.

The one exception to the rule would be if I caught someone's milestone home run ball, in which case I'd hand the ball over to security in exchange for whatever the player in question was willing to trade. Honestly, though, if I had the chance to meet a Major League player to give him his home run ball, I'd probably settle for a picture and maybe a few minutes of small talk. To me, those experiences are worth more (emotionally) than a signed bat or ball.

The only ball I ever caught was the first night game at the new park in 1991 and I kept it. It was a foul ball off the bat of Fisk. It had a special new Comiskey Park logo on it and fans were offering me 50 bucks for it, I should have taken the 50 for it's worth about 20 to 30 bucks as we speak.

Wedema
04-07-2013, 08:56 PM
Wait a minute. If you got a ball, wouldn't you give it to the closest kid, relative or not, near you???

I would keep it. When the kid gets bigger, he can get his own ball.

LITTLE NELL
04-07-2013, 08:58 PM
Noticed on TV today that by the 7th inning hardly anyone was sitting on the right side of the park, most of the fans were on the left side in the sun. Do the Sox make an announcement that fans can go sit in any empty seat they can find in the sun?

anewman35
04-07-2013, 09:09 PM
I realized a very long time ago that the White Sox will never get a fair shake in this city with the media. But it still pisses me off at times. The first place White Sox win todays game with a walk off home run by the Tank. The bad guys on the Northside just got swept today in Atlanta. Channel 7's 5 o'clock news opens there sports segment featuring the Cubs loss and Channel 2's 5.30 news opens there sports segment featuring the Cubs loss also. This certainly has to upset the White Sox management when your first place team plays second fiddle in the media to a team thats going to lose 100 games again.

It's the first week of the season, and the Sox are 4-2 (not 6-0), so I'm quite sure that nobody except the hardest core of Sox fans cares that they are in "first place". Just accept it, the Cubs have the bigger fanbase, and so by default they're going to get more coverage. That can change later in the season when "first place" means something, but for now there's no reason to complain about this (especially since it's just more coverage of the Cubs sucking).

RKMeibalane
04-07-2013, 09:15 PM
The only ball I ever caught was the first night game at the new park in 1991 and I kept it. It was a foul ball off the bat of Fisk. It had a special new Comiskey Park logo on it and fans were offering me 50 bucks for it, I should have taken the 50 for it's worth about 20 to 30 bucks as we speak.

That's interesting that it had a logo like that. I didn't realize MLB allowed that sort of thing, aside from AS Games and postseason play, which feature special balls with logos depicting each event. It may not be worth that much, but I think that's pretty cool you have something like that.

Wedema
04-07-2013, 09:20 PM
Noticed on TV today that by the 7th inning hardly anyone was sitting on the right side of the park, most of the fans were on the left side in the sun. Do the Sox make an announcement that fans can go sit in any empty seat they can find in the sun?


There was no announcement. Fans just flock to the sun when it is chilly out just like they will move to the shade during the hot summer games if there are seats available then.

LITTLE NELL
04-07-2013, 09:36 PM
That's interesting that it had a logo like that. I didn't realize MLB allowed that sort of thing, aside from AS Games and postseason play, which feature special balls with logos depicting each event. It may not be worth that much, but I think that's pretty cool you have something like that.

Here you go.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-07-2013, 10:02 PM
Getting ready to head out tomorrow morning to DC for the game on Tuesday. So excited.

Peavy vs. Gonzalez. It should be a good one.

Railsplitter
04-07-2013, 10:08 PM
:bandance::bandance:

Brian26
04-07-2013, 10:39 PM
Noticed on TV today that by the 7th inning hardly anyone was sitting on the right side of the park, most of the fans were on the left side in the sun. Do the Sox make an announcement that fans can go sit in any empty seat they can find in the sun?

No announcement made, but, yes, everyone moved over to the 3rd base side fairly early in the game. It was cold in the shade.

salty99
04-07-2013, 11:24 PM
That's interesting that it had a logo like that. I didn't realize MLB allowed that sort of thing, aside from AS Games and postseason play, which feature special balls with logos depicting each event. It may not be worth that much, but I think that's pretty cool you have something like that.

There have been lots of special logo balls.

http://www.bigleaguebaseballs.com/main/list-rawlings-commemorative-baseballs/

CoopaLoop
04-07-2013, 11:29 PM
Tank Walk off today.

Beckham, Alexei and Flowers all hit .333 on the week.

Couldn't have asked for a better start from the question marks at the bottom of the order.

StillMissOzzie
04-08-2013, 12:06 AM
Pretty good first week of play. Just win series and you'll be OK. Nice to see them actually win an extra inning game for a change.

Now it's the first road trip and it won't be easy.

Just saw where Peavy said the team is renting a room at the hotel where they are staying in D.C. tomorrow night to watch the men's NCAA basketball championship game.

Will be a nice team bonding experience.

I think the Sox will miss Strasberg.

Lip

The Sox are now 1-1 in extra inning games this season. Let last year rest in peace, Lip.

Nice to see Ventura break out of the "Only in a save situation" way of thinking by using Reed in the top of the 10th when the Mariners had to be held.

SMO
:gulp:

Tragg
04-08-2013, 12:25 AM
The only bummer of the week is that the AL Central looks good, and it looks like the Astros will tank and inflate the AL west records.

And I am a wee bit concerned with Alejandro, a position we have less than zero depth.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-08-2013, 12:51 AM
The only bummer of the week is that the AL Central looks good, and it looks like the Astros will tank and inflate the AL west records.

And I am a wee bit concerned with Alejandro, a position we have less than zero depth.
I know by "position" you mean CF, but it got me thinking: have the Sox had a legitimate leadoff hitter since Scott Podsednik? Does Juan Pierre count?

doublem23
04-08-2013, 01:43 AM
The only bummer of the week is that the AL Central looks good, and it looks like the Astros will tank and inflate the AL west records.

Come on guys, it's only been 7 days into the season; it would be pretty stunning if the AL Central didn't prove to be the worst division in baseball (again). Doesn't take much imagination to see 4/5 of the teams here post losing records this year.

Tragg
04-08-2013, 02:47 AM
Come on guys, it's only been 7 days into the season; it would be pretty stunning if the AL Central didn't prove to be the worst division in baseball (again). Doesn't take much imagination to see 4/5 of the teams here post losing records this year.

I don't think so though. Tigers are good, and KC, Cle are improved on paper. Both can hit. Heck, Minny couldn't be any worse than they were last year.
I know by "position" you mean CF, but it got me thinking: have the Sox had a legitimate leadoff hitter since Scott Podsednik? Does Juan Pierre count?

No, he doesn't. I thought Alejandro was good last year, though.

EnglishChiSox
04-08-2013, 03:20 AM
This next road trip will be tough so glad Sox got the win, Still worried about taxing the 'pen so much this early

doublem23
04-08-2013, 09:04 AM
I don't think so though. Tigers are good, and KC, Cle are improved on paper. Both can hit. Heck, Minny couldn't be any worse than they were last year.

Well, we'll see, last year the division produced 3 of the 4 worst teams in the AL, 3 of the 4 teams to lose 90+ games and was won by a team that finished 7th overall in the league, behdind 2 non-playoff teams from other divisions.

Of all the things that could go wrong for these 2013 White Sox, I think being stuck in an ultracompetitive division is not one we need to worry about.

Zakath
04-08-2013, 09:22 AM
This next road trip will be tough so glad Sox got the win, Still worried about taxing the 'pen so much this early

19 2/3 innings in 6 games, or about 3 innings and an out a game. None of the relievers threw more than 4 innings all week (both Lidstrom and Reed had 4 innings).

I might like that number to go under 3, as that means the starters are getting into the 7th, but I don't consider 3 1/3 innings a game to be really taxing the bullpen.

Now, if that number was 4 or higher, yeah, we'd have problems, especially if it was coming in the middle or near the end of a 20-game stretch, like we have starting Tuesday in Washington, with some night getaway games.

doublem23
04-08-2013, 09:25 AM
I might like that number to go under 3, as that means the starters are getting into the 7th, but I don't consider 3 1/3 innings a game to be really taxing the bullpen.

Especially so early in the season, nothing wrong with being a little conservative with your starter's arms in the cold.

russ99
04-08-2013, 09:40 AM
Tank Walk off today.

Beckham, Alexei and Flowers all hit .333 on the week.

Couldn't have asked for a better start from the question marks at the bottom of the order.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves with Viciedo - he's had 3 hits - 2 of them homers with 0 walks and 7 strikeouts in 19 AB for a .148 average - and sets a perfect case why OPS (.632) is a poor stat...

Hopefully it's a usual case of cold weather at the start and the walkoff gets him going a bit.

kevingrt
04-08-2013, 09:41 AM
This next road trip will be tough so glad Sox got the win, Still worried about taxing the 'pen so much this early

At least we have a deep enough bullpen and some minor league help in the bullpen in case things get shaky.

But all in all our bullpen has looked SUPERB so far.

Tragg
04-08-2013, 10:07 AM
At least we have a deep enough bullpen and some minor league help in the bullpen in case things get shaky.

But all in all our bullpen has looked SUPERB so far.
And that's because it's a good bullpen.

doublem23
04-08-2013, 11:34 AM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves with Viciedo - he's had 3 hits - 2 of them homers with 0 walks and 7 strikeouts in 19 AB for a .148 average - and sets a perfect case why OPS (.632) is a poor stat...

Hopefully it's a usual case of cold weather at the start and the walkoff gets him going a bit.

IT'S. ONE. WEEK.

Have some of you people ever experienced a full baseball season before?

cards press box
04-08-2013, 11:58 AM
http://i.imgur.com/xReNq.jpg

What a way to end the ballgame and the homestand! Go go White Sox!

kittle42
04-08-2013, 12:22 PM
Have some of you people ever experienced a full baseball season before?

Have you never experienced people at WSI who act like they're never experienced a full baseball season before? :D:

SI1020
04-08-2013, 12:38 PM
IT'S. ONE. WEEK.

Have some of you people ever experienced a full baseball season before? Seriously. Over the course of a week even Babe Ruth hit .148 or less a time or two I'd bet. Let the season play out a little before we worry about Tank. As for the Sox, I'll take a 4-2 homestand to start the season. Lots and lots of baseball is yet to be played.

blandman
04-08-2013, 01:40 PM
IT'S. ONE. WEEK.

Have some of you people ever experienced a full baseball season before?

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's one weak and a full season he's not shown the ability to make decent contact, avoid strikeouts, or get on base. It's still early, but he isn't bucking any trends here either.

kittle42
04-08-2013, 03:04 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but it's one weak and a full season he's not shown the ability to make decent contact, avoid strikeouts, or get on base. It's still early, but he isn't bucking any trends here either.

I was about ready to lay into you, and instead decided to see how accurate you were. Wow, he had a .300 OBP last year. And people rip Adam Dunn.

DumpJerry
04-08-2013, 03:27 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but it's one weak and a full season he's not shown the ability to make decent contact, avoid strikeouts, or get on base. It's still early, but he isn't bucking any trends here either.
One weak what?

amsteel
04-08-2013, 03:39 PM
And I am a wee bit concerned with Alejandro, a position we have less than zero depth.

For what it's worth, he didn't look too sharp in the WBC, and some of those games weren't against MLB level competition. In 24 ABs:
0.208/0.296/0.292

However Rios' line from the WBC was just as grim, but from what I remember he was hitting the ball well, just right at guys.

In conclusion, trying to make sense of stats with so few ABs is pointless.

shingo10
04-08-2013, 04:19 PM
I was about ready to lay into you, and instead decided to see how accurate you were. Wow, he had a .300 OBP last year. And people rip Adam Dunn.


Dunn's OBP was part of his appeal when he was on the trading block and a free agent. His ability to draw walks is huge given that he isnt a very good singles hitter.

Tank however is still a developing talent. He cuts and slashes and when he gets hot can carry a team as we saw last year. OBP will probably never be his strong suit.

SI1020
04-08-2013, 05:30 PM
I first saw Viciedo when he played for Birmingham and came away mostly unimpressed. Still, you could see the raw talent there. I thought his best defensive position in the minors was first base. Now he plays LF in the majors to rave reviews. Yet he still won the game on Sunday with his glove as much as his bat. He made a strong throw to second to nail Smoak trying for a double. Andino got a ground rule double later in the inning. Viciedo will never be a high OBP guy or a GG fielder but he could be a valuable player for years to come and I for one am not ready to give up on him, and I'm not particularly optimistic by nature.

blandman
04-08-2013, 06:03 PM
One weak what?

I swear, that was on purpose!

blandman
04-08-2013, 06:06 PM
I was about ready to lay into you, and instead decided to see how accurate you were. Wow, he had a .300 OBP last year. And people rip Adam Dunn.

I seriously don't understand the love affair.

CoopaLoop
04-08-2013, 06:31 PM
Is there a love affair with Viciedo? Outside of a yahoo comparing him to Jason Heyward, most people just see a young guy with power who only has one season under his belt.

amsteel
04-08-2013, 06:49 PM
Is there a love affair with Viciedo? Outside of a yahoo comparing him to Jason Heyward, most people just see a young guy with power who only has one season under his belt.

I'd consider my feelings less of a love affair and more of a 'man-crush'.

mahagga73
04-08-2013, 07:03 PM
There is no forgiveness in that rotation. Yikes.
Dan Haren isn't near what he was. Lost a lot on his fastball, he's nothing special.

mzh
04-08-2013, 09:34 PM
WSI: Where a man hits a walk off BOMB and immediately gets decried for three pages :tongue:

RKMeibalane
04-08-2013, 09:35 PM
WSI: Where a man hits a walk off BOMB and immediately gets decried for three pages :tongue:

Where munch goes, trouble follows.

BigHurt3515
04-08-2013, 10:02 PM
Viciedo is still young. Yes he has been in the organization for awhile but it is still young and a little raw. He will get better. People need to calm the hell down. If he was 28/29 then I would understand

blandman
04-08-2013, 10:50 PM
Viciedo is still young. Yes he has been in the organization for awhile but it is still young and a little raw. He will get better. People need to calm the hell down. If he was 28/29 then I would understand

By that logic, anyone in their early 20's could become a superstar.

How many minor league seasons of working on this with no improvement did he have? He might still improve drastically, but that it's the expectation is a little more than far fetched.

Yeah it's great that he hit a timely homerun to win a game, but lots of really bad players do that too. If Viciedo hits 25 bombs with an obp under .300 again, we're in a world of trouble. Homers are deceiving, that's still well below average production.

doublem23
04-09-2013, 08:54 AM
I was about ready to lay into you, and instead decided to see how accurate you were. Wow, he had a .300 OBP last year. And people rip Adam Dunn.

Viciedo also has barely more than 1 year of MLB service time and has show steady and consistent improvement every year he has been a professional player. I don't think anyone thinks he is destined for superstardom but he has definitely proven to be a potentially useful everyday player, especially in today's game where the raw power he possess is becoming more and more scarce.

And, anyways, it's been one week. You'd truly have to be a ****ing psychopath to actually be concerned about anything at this point.

KenBerryGrab
04-09-2013, 09:41 AM
Section 135, basically behind the plate, just off center so you're looking straight down the 1B line, De Aza hit a ball back in the 9th that bounced off the press box that I snagged.

Way to play the hop.

voodoochile
04-09-2013, 10:25 AM
Whether Tank can ever learn enough plate discipline to become a #3 type hitter time will tell but if he can slug .470+ he'll be a fine addition to any team's 5-7 section of the lineup.

asindc
04-09-2013, 10:36 AM
Whether Tank can ever learn enough plate discipline to become a #3 type hitter time will tell but if he can slug .470+ he'll be a fine addition to any team's 5-7 section of the lineup.

Nope, gotta disagree here. His eventual fate has already been determined.

kittle42
04-09-2013, 02:42 PM
And, anyways, it's been one week. You'd truly have to be a ****ing psychopath to actually be concerned about anything at this point.

Concern with a player is different than concern over a player's performance over one week.

Also, it's one weak!

blandman
04-09-2013, 03:43 PM
Whether Tank can ever learn enough plate discipline to become a #3 type hitter time will tell but if he can slug .470+ he'll be a fine addition to any team's 5-7 section of the lineup.

He slugged .444 last year, with a .300 OBP. He had a WAR of -1.1. The issue isn't whether the numbers you provided would be fine, it's if he can get his OBP high enough to slug that high over the course of a full season. Dude (still) has serious contact issues. Maybe he just needs glasses?

blandman
04-09-2013, 03:44 PM
Concern with a player is different than concern over a player's performance over one week.

Also, it's one weak!

One weak week!

doublem23
04-09-2013, 04:04 PM
He slugged .444 last year, with a .300 OBP. He had a WAR of -1.1. The issue isn't whether the numbers you provided would be fine, it's if he can get his OBP high enough to slug that high over the course of a full season. Dude (still) has serious contact issues. Maybe he just needs glasses?

Yes, that is the concern with Viciedo, and there appears to be only one way to figure out if he can or cannot.

RKMeibalane
04-09-2013, 06:14 PM
He slugged .444 last year, with a .300 OBP. He had a WAR of -1.1. The issue isn't whether the numbers you provided would be fine, it's if he can get his OBP high enough to slug that high over the course of a full season. Dude (still) has serious contact issues. Maybe he just needs glasses?

I've never understood why people immediately cite this as a reason for hitter's struggles. The Sox have both an optometrist and an ophthalmologist available if there are legitimate concerns about a player's vision. If Viciedo were having difficulties because he couldn't see, it's likely this would have been addressed, as every player must submit to a physical exam (including a vision screening) during Spring Training.

blandman
04-09-2013, 08:02 PM
I've never understood why people immediately cite this as a reason for hitter's struggles. The Sox have both an optometrist and an ophthalmologist available if there are legitimate concerns about a player's vision. If Viciedo were having difficulties because he couldn't see, it's likely this would have been addressed, as every player must submit to a physical exam (including a vision screening) during Spring Training.

It was tongue in cheek. :tongue:

blandman
04-09-2013, 08:05 PM
Yes, that is the concern with Viciedo, and there appears to be only one way to figure out if he can or cannot.

You say that like last season didn't play out the overwhelming take on him though. It could happen, but is it reasonably not a longshot? I don't see why it isn't.

RKMeibalane
04-09-2013, 08:08 PM
You say that like last season didn't play out the overwhelming take on him though. It could happen, but is it reasonably not a longshot? I don't see why it isn't.

I don't think that's fair, as there are players who make significant jumps between their first and second full MLB seasons. Robin Ventura made significant strides between 1990 and 1991. July 1991, in particular, was the month that he finally seemed to hit his stride, culminating in one of the most exciting games in White Sox history.

Now, munch, watch carefully:

ZIZCYSZSIMc

blandman
04-09-2013, 08:12 PM
I don't think that's fair, as there are players who make significant jumps between their first and second full MLB seasons. Robin Ventura made significant strides between 1990 and 1991. July 1991, in particular, was the month that he finally seemed to hit his stride, culminating in one of the most exciting games in White Sox history.

Now, munch, watch carefully:

ZIZCYSZSIMc

That has about zero relevance as Robin was picked by scouts to be pretty dang good. The book on Viciedo was (and always has been since his first professional season in the minors) that he'd never see the ball well enough to be an everyday player. Pretty much the only people saying otherwise all these years has been the White Sox organization. Maybe they're right and everyone else is wrong...but I really don't think so.

RKMeibalane
04-09-2013, 08:16 PM
That has about zero relevance as Robin was picked by scouts to be pretty dang good. The book on Viciedo was (and always has been since his first professional season in the minors) that he'd never see the ball well enough to be an everyday player. Pretty much the only people saying otherwise all these years has been the White Sox organization. Maybe they're right and everyone else is wrong...but I really don't think so.

And you believe that scouts are infallible? Robin Ventura was projected to be good, but he struggled mightily in 1989 and '90. It wasn't until the end of 1991 that he'd proven he belonged at the Major League level. Viciedo may not be projected to be as good as Ventura was, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve an opportunity. He's played one full season at the Major League level for an organization that doesn't have anyone waiting in their system to supplant him (though Hawkins looks like he may be a special player).

blandman
04-09-2013, 08:24 PM
And you believe that scouts are infallible? Robin Ventura was projected to be good, but he struggled mightily in 1989 and '90. It wasn't until the end of 1991 that he'd proven he belonged at the Major League level. Viciedo may not be projected to be as good as Ventura was, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve an opportunity. He's played one full season at the Major League level for an organization that doesn't have anyone waiting in their system to supplant him (though Hawkins looks like he may be a special player).

That he doesn't deserve an opportunity is EXACTLY what scouts have said. He hasn't shown anything in the minors that warranted his promotion to a starting role. It played out last year too. He had a negative WAR. That means on offense, a bench player could reasonably be expected to outperform him. People are such fouls for the long ball.

How many organizations would have started (and kept starting) a guy like Viciedo in the middle of a pennant race? He's starting because our system is barren and we've spent a ton of money on him. Not because of anything he's shown in his career thus far.

russ99
04-09-2013, 08:30 PM
And you believe that scouts are infallible? Robin Ventura was projected to be good, but he struggled mightily in 1989 and '90. It wasn't until the end of 1991 that he'd proven he belonged at the Major League level. Viciedo may not be projected to be as good as Ventura was, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve an opportunity. He's played one full season at the Major League level for an organization that doesn't have anyone waiting in their system to supplant him (though Hawkins looks like he may be a special player).

The problem here is there is no adjustment. All the talent in the world can get you only so far in the big leagues. Even the leg kick that Manto and Parent tried to get him to change up with is seemingly gone.

Tank must think he's going to see at least one pitch in an at-bat that he can jack, otherwise, why swing so wildly? That 3-0 count tonight against Gio was just awful, hacking at everything.

Tank is turning into another B.A . to me - he has one fantastic aspect to his play that some fans fall in love with, almost annoyingly so, but the full package is lacking.

And enough of that one year excuse. He now has 781 PA at the big league level, this isn't a rookie here.

RKMeibalane
04-09-2013, 09:02 PM
That he doesn't deserve an opportunity is EXACTLY what scouts have said. He hasn't shown anything in the minors that warranted his promotion to a starting role. It played out last year too.

I am aware of what the scouts have said about him. You did not answer my question: do you believe that their judgement is above reproach?

He had a negative WAR. That means on offense, a bench player could reasonably be expected to outperform him.

Yes, I am aware of what a negative WAR represents. What it does not represent is his potential for improvement, which is impossible to gauge simply by crunching numbers.

How many organizations would have started (and kept starting) a guy like Viciedo in the middle of a pennant race?

I don't know the answer to this question, but it doesn't matter, as it's not relevant. Viciedo doesn't play for another organization. He plays for the White Sox, it matters only how they use him. You're moving the goalposts again.

He's starting because our system is barren and we've spent a ton of money on him. Not because of anything he's shown in his career thus far.

This point I agree with, as it's likely that the Sox would employ a different starting LF if there were a superior player available, either through their farm system or via trade. As I said, if Courtney Hawkins develops as expected (which is by no means a certainty), it's possible that he replaces Viciedo, and Dayan's weaknesses at the plate are no longer an issue where the White Sox are concerned.

RKMeibalane
04-09-2013, 09:23 PM
The problem here is there is no adjustment. All the talent in the world can get you only so far in the big leagues. Even the leg kick that Manto and Parent tried to get him to change up with is seemingly gone.

I agree that his approach at the plate is extremely poor, and I also agree that it's disappointing that he appears either unwilling or unable to incorporate the suggestions of the coaching staff into said approach as a means of improving his chances of making solid contact. While either scenario is certainly discouraging, neither means that his approach is beyond repair.

Tank must think he's going to see at least one pitch in an at-bat that he can jack, otherwise, why swing so wildly? That 3-0 count tonight against Gio was just awful, hacking at everything.

I don't know what Viciedo is thinking when he's at the plate. Only he knows why he chooses to swing at certain pitches. As I said, his approach at the plate is poor, and a poor plate approach will almost certainly lead to poor results. What is difficult for me- and for the Sox coaching staff, apparently- is whether his poor approach is the result of a physical or mental weakness, or perhaps some combination of the two. I may be able to recognize even subtle injuries by watching a person's body language, but it's more difficult to determine one's approach to hitting a baseball by doing so.

Tank is turning into another B.A . to me - he has one fantastic aspect to his play that some fans fall in love with, almost annoyingly so, but the full package is lacking.

I agree that he doesn't have the full package, but honestly, how many players in baseball today truly use or display all five tools regularly? Miguel Cabrera was the American League MVP last season. Most people would characterize him as a "two-tool" player (by hitting for average and power), albeit an extremely effective two-tool player.

Viciedio will never be Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, or even Justin Upton, but I don't know of anyone here who believes that he will be. The fluff piece comparing him with Heyward is exactly that, fluff.

And enough of that one year excuse. He now has 781 PA at the big league level, this isn't a rookie here.

I never said that he was a rookie. I said that I think he needs more time, and, as the Sox have no one ready to replace him, it seems reasonable to provide him with playing time as a means of seeing whether he will improve. If he does, then the Sox may have a serviceable player on their roster who can contribute as they wait for Hawkins, Barnum, and others to develop. If he does not, it's unlikely that the Sox fortunes will change significantly if he tossed aside. They'll just have to find someone else to play LF until a suitable long-term replacement is available.

blandman
04-09-2013, 10:51 PM
I am aware of what the scouts have said about him. You did not answer my question: do you believe that their judgement is above reproach?



Yes, I am aware of what a negative WAR represents. What it does not represent is his potential for improvement, which is impossible to gauge simply by crunching numbers.



I don't know the answer to this question, but it doesn't matter, as it's not relevant. Viciedo doesn't play for another organization. He plays for the White Sox, it matters only how they use him. You're moving the goalposts again.



This point I agree with, as it's likely that the Sox would employ a different starting LF if there were a superior player available, either through their farm system or via trade. As I said, if Courtney Hawkins develops as expected (which is by no means a certainty), it's possible that he replaces Viciedo, and Dayan's weaknesses at the plate are no longer an issue where the White Sox are concerned.

Scouts are not above reproach, but I can't think of a single instance that a guy went beyond what is a pretty strong consensus.

Potential for improvement is gauged by scouts. Fixing hitches or holes in swings or even approach. Viciedo has above average bat speed and zero eye. He's been able to squeak by lower levels (and this has been repeated over and over by every major scouting publication) because his bat speed allowed him to compensate at those levels. However, he does not possess the raw bat speed of a Vlad Guerrerro or Alfonso Soriano, so that approach will not ever translate to major league success. His best bet is complete reconstruction of his swing with an extreme emphasis on seeing the ball as long as possible. That could take years, and is more of a longshot project than it is "potential".

I'm not moving the goalposts. I don't believe, 100%, that Viciedo would have been called up in any other organization. The point I was making is that he's below even bench caliber, since he's below average both at the plate and in the field, and does not project to succeed to boot.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 09:29 AM
Scouts are not above reproach, but I can't think of a single instance that a guy went beyond what is a pretty strong consensus.

Potential for improvement is gauged by scouts. Fixing hitches or holes in swings or even approach. Viciedo has above average bat speed and zero eye. He's been able to squeak by lower levels (and this has been repeated over and over by every major scouting publication) because his bat speed allowed him to compensate at those levels. However, he does not possess the raw bat speed of a Vlad Guerrerro or Alfonso Soriano, so that approach will not ever translate to major league success. His best bet is complete reconstruction of his swing with an extreme emphasis on seeing the ball as long as possible. That could take years, and is more of a longshot project than it is "potential".

I'm not moving the goalposts. I don't believe, 100%, that Viciedo would have been called up in any other organization. The point I was making is that he's below even bench caliber, since he's below average both at the plate and in the field, and does not project to succeed to boot.

I think I should be clear about a few things:



I don't necessarily believe that Dayan Viciedo is the long-term answer for the White Sox in left field, and I've never said anything to suggest otherwise. I also agree with those who believe that his swing has significant holes, and that his approach at the plate is extremely poor.
Having said that, I believe that there is an aspect of this situation that the acolytes of jeremyb1 are overlooking: the White Sox have no one available to replace Viciedo if they decide to sit him.
Munch points out that Viciedo's WAR was negative in 2012, which suggests that the Sox would have been better off with another player occupying his spot on the roster. This is a fair point, but it does not address the most important issue in a situation like this.
If a particular player is not playing well enough to justify his spot in the lineup, he cannot be replaced unless such a replacement player is actually available to assume his spot. The White Sox farm system is largely devoid of Major League talent at the highest levels. Players projected to have success (Courtney Hawkins) aren't yet ready to compete for a job with the Sox. Otherwise, Hawkins would have participated in Spring Training in an effort to win Viciedo's job.
As the Sox have no one would can play in Viciedo's absence, it makes the most sense for the Sox to continue starting him in LF, in the (perhaps unlikely) event that he improves significantly enough to help his team more effectively.
Finally, I find the argument of whether a particular player would start on another roster to be extremely tiresome. What a player would be allowed were he part of another Major League team is irrelevant. Dayan Viciedo doesn't play for another team: he plays for White Sox, and it matters only whether his presence helps White Sox win, not what he would be expected to do playing elsewhere.

blandman
04-10-2013, 11:56 AM
I think I should be clear about a few things:



I don't necessarily believe that Dayan Viciedo is the long-term answer for the White Sox in left field, and I've never said anything to suggest otherwise. I also agree with those who believe that his swing has significant holes, and that his approach at the plate is extremely poor.
Having said that, I believe that there is an aspect of this situation that the acolytes of jeremyb1 are overlooking: the White Sox have no one available to replace Viciedo if they decide to sit him.
Munch points out that Viciedo's WAR was negative in 2012, which suggests that the Sox would have been better off with another player occupying his spot on the roster. This is a fair point, but it does not address the most important issue in a situation like this.
If a particular player is not playing well enough to justify his spot in the lineup, he cannot be replaced unless such a replacement player is actually available to assume his spot. The White Sox farm system is largely devoid of Major League talent at the highest levels. Players projected to have success (Courtney Hawkins) aren't yet ready to compete for a job with the Sox. Otherwise, Hawkins would have participated in Spring Training in an effort to win Viciedo's job.
As the Sox have no one would can play in Viciedo's absence, it makes the most sense for the Sox to continue starting him in LF, in the (perhaps unlikely) event that he improves significantly enough to help his team more effectively.
Finally, I find the argument of whether a particular player would start on another roster to be extremely tiresome. What a player would be allowed were he part of another Major League team is irrelevant. Dayan Viciedo doesn't play for another team: he plays for White Sox, and it matters only whether his presence helps White Sox win, not what he would be expected to do playing elsewhere.



I think most of this is fair, I just don't think people realize how bad Viciedo actually is. There are plenty of available better options, even on our roster. DeWayne Wise actually posted a positive WAR as an outfielder last season (which should indicate more conclusively how bad Viciedo really is). Given his tremendous defensive advantage, it makes absolutely no sense why we continue to start Viciedo. Cut you losses already.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 12:21 PM
I think most of this is fair, I just don't think people realize how bad Viciedo actually is. There are plenty of available better options, even on our roster. DeWayne Wise actually posted a positive WAR as an outfielder last season (which should indicate more conclusively how bad Viciedo really is). Given his tremendous defensive advantage, it makes absolutely no sense why we continue to start Viciedo. Cut you losses already.

Be careful. Wise's WAR was barely positive, and occurred in limited playing time. Although one component of the WAR calculation (replacement level runs) is based on playing time, it's difficult to know how Wise may have fared had he received more playing time with the Yankees and White Sox.

I'll add by saying that Ventura and the rest of the White Sox coaching staff are with the players on a daily basis. Although I don't believe Ventura is infallible, I trust him to do his job competently, and am willing to accept that he may see things in his players that I'm not able to. If he isn't starting Wise over Viciedo, I would imagine he has sufficient reason for not making any changes.

doublem23
04-10-2013, 12:53 PM
Given his tremendous defensive advantage, it makes absolutely no sense why we continue to start Viciedo. Cut you losses already.

Because the Sox have made a significant investment in Viciedo and now's the time to find out what they have in the guy. Playing AAAA Dewayne Wise everyday is a pointless exercise.


I'll add by saying that Ventura and the rest of the White Sox coaching staff are with the players on a daily basis. Although I don't believe Ventura is infallible, I trust him to do his job competently, and am willing to accept that he may see things in his players that I'm not able to. If he isn't starting Wise over Viciedo, I would imagine he has sufficient reason for not making any changes.

Precisely

kufram
04-10-2013, 12:56 PM
This conversation is absolutely enthralling.... but I have to wash my hair.

blandman
04-10-2013, 01:02 PM
Because the Sox have made a significant investment in Viciedo and now's the time to find out what they have in the guy. Playing AAAA Dewayne Wise everyday is a pointless exercise.



Precisely

Unwisely spending ten million dollars is not a reason to sabotage your team.

doublem23
04-10-2013, 01:09 PM
Unwisely spending ten million dollars is not a reason to sabotage your team.

Well, you know, I don't think playing Wise everyday in LF and calling up Little Danks to be the 4th outfield is going to magically find the Sox another handful of wins they wouldn't have gotten with Viciedo in LF. if you go on last year's WAR, the Sox would have finished what? 86-76 instead of 85-77. Hardly seems worthy of casting away a 24-year-old whom you've invested $13 million in his development

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 01:12 PM
Unwisely spending ten million dollars is not a reason to sabotage your team.

It's also not a reason to give playing time to an individual who, despite being drafted almost sixteen years ago, has never proven that he can handle playing everyday at the Major League level. Jesus Christ, you're a broken record. What is wrong with you?

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 01:17 PM
Well, you know, I don't think playing Wise everyday in LF and calling up Little Danks to be the 4th outfield is going to magically find the Sox another handful of wins they wouldn't have gotten with Viciedo in LF. if you go on last year's WAR, the Sox would have finished what? 86-76 instead of 85-77. Hardly seems worthy of casting away a 24-year-old whom you've invested $13 million in his development

This is exactly the point I was making earlier. Viciedo may not be what all of us are hoping for, but finding a suitable replacement isn't as easy as some appear to believe.

Wise has been in professional baseball in some capacity since 1997, and he has never proven that he can play every day: on the contrary, he's bounced from roster to roster, having had tours with the Reds, Blue Jays (twice), Yankees, Marlins, and White Sox (twice). That he's been given so many chances suggests that he has at least some baseball ability, but one would think that he'd have landed a better gig than utility outfielder by now. Why hasn't he? Perhaps because he's not capable of handling that much responsibility. That's not to say that Viciedo is, but one has nothing to do with the other, beyond the fact that they're currently occupying the same Major League roster.

JB98
04-10-2013, 02:16 PM
I'm sure this is true of all fan bases to some extent, but it seems to be especially true of Sox fans: We criticize the organization for failing to produce young talent, while at the same time we aren't willing to tolerate the growing pains of young players trying to find their way at the major league level.

I don't know yet whether Viciedo is a long-term answer for the Sox. I need more information. Let's give him 500 ABs this year, then see how it looks at the end of the season. Maybe he'll make strides this season. Maybe he won't.

I do know there is only one way to learn how to hit major league pitching. You do that by facing major league pitching.

dickallen15
04-10-2013, 02:29 PM
That he doesn't deserve an opportunity is EXACTLY what scouts have said. He hasn't shown anything in the minors that warranted his promotion to a starting role. It played out last year too. He had a negative WAR. That means on offense, a bench player could reasonably be expected to outperform him. People are such fouls for the long ball.

How many organizations would have started (and kept starting) a guy like Viciedo in the middle of a pennant race? He's starting because our system is barren and we've spent a ton of money on him. Not because of anything he's shown in his career thus far.
Looking at fangraphs, Viciedo's WAR last year wasn't negative, it was 0.3. Baseball-Reference had it at 0.9. Carlos Lee, someone I think Viciedo seems to be very similar, posted a .8 WAR his age 23 season, with an even lower walk rate. Guys do get better occassionally. Judging a young Cuban after 6 games this year, in cold weather, is silly.

doublem23
04-10-2013, 03:06 PM
I'm sure this is true of all fan bases to some extent, but it seems to be especially true of Sox fans: We criticize the organization for failing to produce young talent, while at the same time we aren't willing to tolerate the growing pains of young players trying to find their way at the major league level.

I wonder if it is because most other teams go through more traditional boom and bust years, so they collect a ton of young talent that advances to the Majors kind of together, they all stink together while they learn the Majors together but then grow together. Whereas the Sox, who are constantly "reloading" without "rebuilding" always seem to be 1-2 players short of a truly exceptional team, so when a 23-year-old LF has a less than amazing season on a team that finished 3 games out of a play-off spot, that seems to stick out a little more. And, of course, when that 23-year-old LF matures a few years and is ready to be more of a centerpiece of the offense, the Sox are plugging a hole somewhere else in the lineup with a young kid whose not quite ready to contribute at the MLB level. So they stay stuck at the 85-win plateau in Baseball Hell.

Of course, the Sox also haven't really had a worthwhile collection of MiLB prospects since 2000.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 03:33 PM
Judging a young Cuban after 6 games this year, in cold weather, is silly.

Didn't someone get into trouble for saying something like this? I don't mean on this message board, but within Major League Baseball. Someone said something about a particular ethnic group having difficulty with day baseball at Wrigley Field, or something to that effect, and was harshly criticized.

:jerry

"I was harshly criticized for things I said."

:ohno

"That's because most of what you said was stupid."

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 03:47 PM
Of course, the Sox also haven't really had a worthwhile collection of MiLB prospects since 2000.

And they still don't, at least not at higher levels of their organization. Courtney Hawkins won't be ready for the Major League level for a while, and Keon Barnum is trying to work his way back from a shoulder injury that cost him the majority of his first professional season. He's sidelined for the first four weeks of the minor league season due to an injury suffered in early March. These two young men are the prospects I've heard the most about, and each was drafted only last summer, so it's not clear what either will become.

To add to your earlier point, I also think that this group of fans is frustrated by the number of prospects who haven't panned out as expected, even going back to the late-1990s. Mike Caruso had an excellent rookie season- while hitting directly in front of Frank Thomas- but struggled mightily after that. Mike Cameron was traded for Konerko, although that trade absolutely worked out for the best. James Baldwin? Mike Sirotka? Greg Norton? Chris Singleton?

Jon Garland was an important piece of the rotation, but never became the ace that many hoped he would be. Joe Crede couldn't stay healthy. Aaron Rowand was treated like God on this message board, but never played at God's level. Danny Wright was rarely right. Jon Rauch is remembered more for his leaving a game early. Joe Borchard was a joke. Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo were worshiped by a former WSI poster, but did nothing to justify it. Carlos Lee had several good seasons for the Sox, as did Magglio Ordonez, but only they and Paul Konerko came close to meeting their potential.

dickallen15
04-10-2013, 03:51 PM
Didn't someone get into trouble for saying something like this? I don't mean on this message board, but within Major League Baseball. Someone said something about a particular ethnic group having difficulty with day baseball at Wrigley Field, or something to that effect, and was harshly criticized.

:jerry

"I was harshly criticized for things I said."

:ohno

"That's because most of what you said was stupid."

My point was this guy and most Cubans haven't played very much in 35-40 degree weather. Much like dome football teams for years couldn't win in cold weather.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 03:59 PM
My point was this guy and most Cubans haven't played very much in 35-40 degree weather. Much like dome football teams for years couldn't win in cold weather.

I understand the point. I'm just remembering similar comments that landed someone in hot water, although I can't remember who it was.

doublem23
04-10-2013, 04:05 PM
Judging any ball player after 6 games in mostly cold weather is stupid

dickallen15
04-10-2013, 04:13 PM
Judging any ball player after 6 games in mostly cold weather is stupid

It's done in October every year, but it seems that a conclusion that Viciedo hasn't improved is already being made by a couple of people. They could be correct, but it's pretty ridiculous to come to that conclusion on April 10th.

amsteel
04-10-2013, 04:14 PM
Didn't someone get into trouble for saying something like this? I don't mean on this message board, but within Major League Baseball.

Dusty Baker.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2013, 04:22 PM
It's done in October every year, but it seems that a conclusion that Viciedo hasn't improved is already being made by a couple of people. They could be correct, but it's pretty ridiculous to come to that conclusion on April 10th.

Completely agree, but that won't stop them from subjecting this board to their verbal histrionics.

SI1020
04-10-2013, 04:28 PM
Completely agree, but that won't stop them from subjecting this board to their verbal histrionics. Don't I know it.

blandman
04-10-2013, 11:03 PM
Looking at fangraphs, Viciedo's WAR last year wasn't negative, it was 0.3. Baseball-Reference had it at 0.9. Carlos Lee, someone I think Viciedo seems to be very similar, posted a .8 WAR his age 23 season, with an even lower walk rate. Guys do get better occassionally. Judging a young Cuban after 6 games this year, in cold weather, is silly.

I don't why two sites have two different numbers, but when I'm pulling it up, I'm still getting negative 1.1...

doublem23
04-11-2013, 12:48 AM
I don't why two sites have two different numbers, but when I'm pulling it up, I'm still getting negative 1.1...

Different places calculate WAR differently, it probably just depends on which site you're looking at, but yeah, according to www.baseball-reference.com, in 2012 Dayan had a 0.8 oWAR, -0.5 dWAR, and a total WAR of 0.9.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vicieda01.shtml#batting_value::none

blandman
04-11-2013, 10:58 AM
Different places calculate WAR differently, it probably just depends on which site you're looking at, but yeah, according to www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com), in 2012 Dayan had a 0.8 oWAR, -0.5 dWAR, and a total WAR of 0.9.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vicieda01.shtml#batting_value::none

What?!

I am officially going to stop using WAR.

asindc
04-11-2013, 11:54 AM
What?!

I am officially going to stop using WAR.

Well, that's a start.

jdm2662
04-11-2013, 12:03 PM
What?!

I am officially going to stop using WAR.

You never should've used it in the first place. Do you remember the song "WAR what is good for. Nothing!"

doublem23
04-11-2013, 12:14 PM
What?!

I am officially going to stop using WAR.

This is a pretty good primer on some of the little nuances that alter WAR from various places. The stat is still in its relative infancy so there's always going to be slight tweaks in the formula.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained.shtml

I think it reiterates the point that WAR is a nice, easy to guage stat to get a kind of snapshot of what each player's worth is, but it's far from a complete picture. The biggest problem will probably always be settling on a definition of what defines a "replacement level" player for each position.

As long as you're taking your stats from a consistent source, though, you shouldn't have too much trouble.

dickallen15
04-11-2013, 12:50 PM
I don't why two sites have two different numbers, but when I'm pulling it up, I'm still getting negative 1.1...
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3917&position=OF

0.3 for 2012.