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Viva Medias B's
03-31-2013, 12:38 AM
This is the separate predictions thread I post every year at this time. This year, I am going with Eric Wedge (SEA) in the American League and Ron Roenicke (MIL) in the National League.

mzh
03-31-2013, 12:46 AM
I remember a few years ago I hit the nail straight on the head with these.

I'm going with Ned Yost in the AL and Bud Black in the NL.

DSpivack
03-31-2013, 12:46 AM
A couple Yankees: Joe Girardi in the Bronx and Don Mattingly in Chavez Ravine.

Twins_Morneau
03-31-2013, 07:11 AM
Gardenhire could get scapegoated in a hurry if the season starts slow for the Twins

Marqhead
03-31-2013, 10:06 AM
Gardenhire could get scapegoated in a hurry if the season starts slow for the Twins

I think they love him too much up there to let him go. It would be a mistake if they did.

AL: Ned Yost
NL: Clint Hurdle

DoItForDanPasqua
03-31-2013, 12:43 PM
AL: Ron Gardenhire
NL: Don Mattingly

DumpJerry
03-31-2013, 12:56 PM
Since 1986, the Twins have had only two Managers, Tom Kelly (1986-2001) and Gardy. I don't think they'll fire Gardy, they know they don't have the talent to back up Gardy's talents as a skipper.

RKMeibalane
03-31-2013, 01:54 PM
AL: Eric Wedge
NL: Don Mattingly

palehozenychicty
04-03-2013, 04:07 PM
AL: Ron Washington

NL: Don Mattingly

Huisj
04-03-2013, 10:45 PM
AL: Ned Yost
NL: Charlie Manuel

SoxNation05
04-03-2013, 11:05 PM
AL: Eric Wedge
NL: Charlie Manuel

blandman
04-03-2013, 11:26 PM
NL: Dusty Baker
AL: Robin Ventura (stepping down)

delben91
04-03-2013, 11:28 PM
NL: Dusty Baker
AL: Robin Ventura (stepping down)

You think Robin steps down mid-year before any AL manager gets fired?

blandman
04-03-2013, 11:29 PM
You think Robin steps down mid-year before any AL manager gets fired?

Yes. I get the feeling he's biding his time, more than anything else. If things turn, I don't think he'd hesitate.

SoxFanCPA
04-04-2013, 01:12 AM
NL: Dusty Baker
AL: Robin Ventura (stepping down)
:rolleyes:

MUsoxfan
04-04-2013, 01:18 AM
Yes. I get the feeling he's biding his time, more than anything else. If things turn, I don't think he'd hesitate.

You can't possibly believe even 10% of the bull**** you post here

blandman
04-04-2013, 02:02 AM
You can't possibly believe even 10% of the bull**** you post here

What, that a manager in the last year of his contract on a team largely predicted not to compete is my prediction for the first to go?

It's my prediction. I can pick whoever the **** I want. Especially when it makes sense.

MUsoxfan
04-04-2013, 02:07 AM
What, that a manager in the last year of his contract on a team largely predicted not to compete is my prediction for the first to go?

It's my prediction. I can pick whoever the **** I want. Especially when it makes sense.

That makes sense considering your history of other things you think make sense

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 07:51 AM
Yes. I get the feeling he's biding his time, more than anything else. If things turn, I don't think he'd hesitate.

What the **** is wrong with you?

delben91
04-04-2013, 09:34 AM
Yes. I get the feeling he's biding his time, more than anything else. If things turn, I don't think he'd hesitate.

Why wouldn't he leave at the end of last season when the Sox lost the division lead and "things turned" then? If all it takes is one disappointment to get him out the door then he's already had it.

blandman
04-04-2013, 11:47 AM
What the **** is wrong with you?

Robin blew it last year. Didn't extend. And the Sox are largely (optimistic) favored to not be good.

In the AL Central watch thread, another poster, without response, insinuates that Jim Leyland, all time great and coach (who would never be fired) of what is largely considered the best team in the league, will be the first to go.

And I'm the one getting flack?

The **** is wrong with me? The **** is wrong with all of you.

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 11:58 AM
Robin blew it last year.

Give me a break. Yes, the Sox fell apart down the stretch, but no one expected them to contend in 2012. That they did anything at all is a testament to Robin's influence over a club that struggled mightily under the leadership of Ozzie Guillen.

And the Sox are largely (optimistic) favored to not be good.

And this means that Robin's going to quit? I could understand his leaving if there were another managerial post available, but there isn't, and Robin seems comfortable in Chicago. I don't know why he didn't extend his contract: he probably had reasons for not doing so that we're not aware of. I won't speculate about something I don't have knowledge of.

In the AL Central watch thread, another poster, without response, insinuates that Jim Leyland, all time great and coach (who would never be fired) of what is largely considered the best team in the league, will be the first to go.

Leyland is a HOF'er, but that doesn't mean his position is invulnerable. I don't think he'll be fired, but I can understand why someone would think so if the Tigers don't meet expectations.

And I'm the one getting flack?

I don't know why the other posters are giving you a hard time. I'm doing it because I'm sick and tired of reading your unsubstantiated bull**** day after day. Do you have any facts at your disposal- besides Robin not extending his contact- that suggest he's about quit or be fired? Do you have any information suggesting that the Sox will make a change in their hierarchy this season?

The **** is wrong with me? The **** is wrong with all of you.

Once again, I won't speak for other posters. If there is something wrong with me, perhaps it is that I am too inflexible in my thinking, as I'm loath to jump to conclusions unless I have a significant portion of the information about a subject. That's the reason for my position on this issue. I don't believe that Robin's departure is eminent because I have no information that supports the idea, and I won't speculate by tossing out ideas that may inflame the board.

blandman
04-04-2013, 12:08 PM
Give me a break. Yes, the Sox fell apart down the stretch, but no one expected them to contend in 2012. That they did anything at all is a testament to Robin's influence over a club that struggled mightily under the leadership of Ozzie Guillen.



And this means that Robin's going to quit? I could understand his leaving if there were another managerial post available, but there isn't, and Robin seems comfortable in Chicago. I don't know why he didn't extend his contract: he probably had reasons for not doing so that we're not aware of. I won't speculate about something I don't have knowledge of.



Leyland is a HOF'er, but that doesn't mean his position is invulnerable. I don't think he'll be fired, but I can understand why someone would think so if the Tigers don't meet expectations.



I don't know why the other posters are giving you a hard time. I'm doing it because I'm sick and tired of reading your unsubstantiated bull**** day after day. Do you have any facts at your disposal- besides Robin not extending his contact- that suggest he's about quit or be fired? Do you have any information suggesting that the Sox will make a change in their hierarchy this season?



Once again, I won't speak for other posters. If there is something wrong with me, perhaps it is that I am too inflexible in my thinking, as I'm loath to jump to conclusions unless I have a significant portion of the information about a subject. That's the reason for my position on this issue. I don't believe that Robin's departure is eminent because I have no information that supports the idea, and I won't speculate by tossing out ideas that may inflame the board.

Let me get this straight. You think Leyland's not invulnerable to being fired first despite being a HOF, not fired after a slow start last year where he led his team to the World Series, and having a team about as likely to miss the playoffs as you are of winning the lottery, but the notion of a second year manager being fired or leaving (when that happens all the time) in the last year of his deal (when that happens all the time) on a team that is riddled with flaws (when that happens all the time) after managing a team that fell short the year before (when that happens all the time) is so completely out there that I have to have some sort of agenda.

It's my best guess. I'm not picking someone else and then after the fact saying "oh, i wanted to pick Robin". I don't think ANYONE is getting fired early in the AL.

TheOldRoman
04-04-2013, 12:50 PM
What, that a manager in the last year of his contract on a team largely predicted not to compete is my prediction for the first to go?
First off, false. He is under contract for another year. (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-13/sports/chi-chicago-white-sox-robin-ventura-contract-extension-20130213_1_manager-robin-ventura-extension-contract)

Robin blew it last year. Didn't extend. And the Sox are largely (optimistic) favored to not be good.
This should be filed as example 1 in the Munchman dictionary of sensationalism. The Sox are OPTIMISTICALLY favored to not be good? What the **** does that even mean? This team won 85 games last year, and only its collapse allowed the GREATEST TEAM EVARRRR to make the playoffs, and it is optimistic for people to think the team will be bad? If optimistic people think the team will be bad, what are pessimistic people thinking? Worse than the Astros?!

The **** is wrong with me? The **** is wrong with all of you.What's wrong with you? You are apparently doing an impression of Jay Mariotti. Right down to getting belligerent when people question your outlansish claims.

Let me get this straight. You think Leyland's not invulnerable to being fired first despite being a HOF, not fired after a slow start last year where he led his team to the World Series...
Nobody is arguing that he is not unlikely to be fired. That being said, Detroit fans have more than had their fill with him, and the blame for them missing the playoffs last year, which they would have had the Sox not fallen apart, would have fallen on his shoulders. He has seemed aloof and like he doesn't really care to keep managing at times. SO... if the Tigers were to get off to a terrible start for whatever reason, it wouldn't be implausible he would say "**** it" and retire, or even that Detroit and its colossal payroll would think he wasn't the guy for the job. Not likely, but not unimaginable.

... having a team about as likely to miss the playoffs as you are of winning the lottery.
This should be filed as example 2 in the Munchman dictionary of sensationalism. Set aside the fact that the Tigers aren't even close to being thise once-in-a-decade powerhouse you proclaim them to be. Some VERY talented teams throughout history have done faceplants. The Red Sox in 2011 were picked by pretty much everyone to win the World Series, and we know how that turned out. The White Sox won 99, 90, and 89 games in 05, 06, and 08 respetively, but everything went wrong in 2007 and they won 72. That year was clearly an outlier in retrospect. The 2008 Tigers were the team to beat in the Central, and the finished in last place. Nobody here is predicting the Tigers to finish in last, but claiming that it would be a one-in-several-hundred-million chance, so essentially the greatest failure in baseball history, is absurd.

...but the notion of a second year manager being fired or leaving (when that happens all the time).
Please present instances of an acclaimed rookie manager who gave up in the middle of year two.
...in the last year of his deal (when that happens all the time)
Once again, completely false, but please present instances of a manager quitting midseason just because they were in a contract year. And don't say Jim Riggelman because he was pissed that his contract wasn't going to be renewed.

...on a team that is riddled with flaws (when that happens all the time)
Munch, if the team is so terrible and riddled with flaws, why would he get fired?! Unless you think he will become enraged at the team's supposed lack of talent and storm off, the only option is him being fired. And since nobody is proclaiming the Sox division favorites or declaring "playoffs or bust", the only way Robin gets fired this year is if he exposes himself to a female coworker or pulls a Mel Gibson.

...is so completely out there that I have to have some sort of agenda.
You have demonstrated in the past that you have an agenda. And if anyone else were to post that Robin would leave, 1) we'd give them the benefit of the doubt, and 2) they would proclaim it was just a crazy hunch and not offer up absurdities to back up their position and claim that their hunch was at all likely.

blandman
04-04-2013, 01:02 PM
First off, false. He is under contract for another year. (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-13/sports/chi-chicago-white-sox-robin-ventura-contract-extension-20130213_1_manager-robin-ventura-extension-contract)


This should be filed as example 1 in the Munchman dictionary of sensationalism. The Sox are OPTIMISTICALLY favored to not be good? What the **** does that even mean? This team won 85 games last year, and only its collapse allowed the GREATEST TEAM EVARRRR to make the playoffs, and it is optimistic for people to think the team will be bad? If optimistic people think the team will be bad, what are pessimistic people thinking? Worse than the Astros?!

What's wrong with you? You are apparently doing an impression of Jay Mariotti. Right down to getting belligerent when people question your outlansish claims.


Nobody is arguing that he is not unlikely to be fired. That being said, Detroit fans have more than had their fill with him, and the blame for them missing the playoffs last year, which they would have had the Sox not fallen apart, would have fallen on his shoulders. He has seemed aloof and like he doesn't really care to keep managing at times. SO... if the Tigers were to get off to a terrible start for whatever reason, it wouldn't be implausible he would say "**** it" and retire, or even that Detroit and its colossal payroll would think he wasn't the guy for the job. Not likely, but not unimaginable.


This should be filed as example 2 in the Munchman dictionary of sensationalism. Set aside the fact that the Tigers aren't even close to being thise once-in-a-decade powerhouse you proclaim them to be. Some VERY talented teams throughout history have done faceplants. The Red Sox in 2011 were picked by pretty much everyone to win the World Series, and we know how that turned out. The White Sox won 99, 90, and 89 games in 05, 06, and 08 respetively, but everything went wrong in 2007 and they won 72. That year was clearly an outlier in retrospect. The 2008 Tigers were the team to beat in the Central, and the finished in last place. Nobody here is predicting the Tigers to finish in last, but claiming that it would be a one-in-several-hundred-million chance, so essentially the greatest failure in baseball history, is absurd.


Please present instances of an acclaimed rookie manager who gave up in the middle of year two.

Once again, completely false, but please present instances of a manager quitting midseason just because they were in a contract year. And don't say Jim Riggelman because he was pissed that his contract wasn't going to be renewed.


Munch, if the team is so terrible and riddled with flaws, why would he get fired?! Unless you think he will become enraged at the team's supposed lack of talent and storm off, the only option is him being fired. And since nobody is proclaiming the Sox division favorites or declaring "playoffs or bust", the only way Robin gets fired this year is if he exposes himself to a female coworker or pulls a Mel Gibson.


You have demonstrated in the past that you have an agenda. And if anyone else were to post that Robin would leave, 1) we'd give them the benefit of the doubt, and 2) they would proclaim it was just a crazy hunch and not offer up absurdities to back up their position and claim that their hunch was at all likely.

The Sox are not favored to be good. They won 85 games last year. They aren't many (or any that I can find) that predict them to even do that well this year.

Between Robin outright talking about walking away and the chances of being fired, I don't see why you're attacking me.

Managers dealt bad hands get fired every year. Managers get fired in year two all the time.

I thought this was Robin's last year. Am I wrong on this?

The Tigers are a once in a generation type of team. They have the best pitcher in baseball, the best hitter in baseball, and the best left handed hitter in baseball. They've got one of the three best 1-5 rotations in baseball (probably the best). You can think that's not true all you want, but there are plenty more people that do see it that way. Baseball people, mostly. Yeah, they might be wrong. But are they wrong enough for Leyland to get fired? That's a phenomenal stretch on your part. I'm not taking that bet.

I don't see what our records in previous years have to do with the 2013 Tigers.

There is zero reason I should be attacked for predicting, and this is a prediction COMPETITION thread, that a manager in Robin's position could go first. And it's even more laughable when there's evidence of actual ridiculousness afoot.

edit: I'm really tired of hearing the agenda angle, and OH if it were another poster...bull****. Whether its a sox thread or a bulls thread or whatever, any negativity from any poster is being met with such outright homer-ism lately its childish. Learn to discuss instead of attack. The problem isn't the negative ideas. It's the way you're incapable of processing them.

TheOldRoman
04-04-2013, 01:13 PM
The Sox are not favored to be good. They won 85 games last year. They aren't many (or any that I can find) that predict them to even do that well this year.

Between Robin outright talking about walking away and the chances of being fired, I don't see why you're attacking me.

Managers dealt bad hands get fired every year. Managers get fired in year two all the time.

I thought this was Robin's last year. Am I wrong on this?

The Tigers are a once in a generation type of team. They have the best pitcher in baseball, the best hitter in baseball, and the best left handed hitter in baseball. They've got one of the three best 1-5 rotations in baseball (probably the best). You can think that's not true all you want, but there are plenty more people that do see it that way. Baseball people, mostly. Yeah, they might be wrong. But are they wrong enough for Leyland to get fired? That's a phenomenal stretch on your part. I'm not taking that bet.

I don't see what our records in previous years have to do with the 2013 Tigers.

There is zero reason I should be attacked for predicting, and this is a prediction COMPETITION thread, that a manager in Robin's position could go first. And it's even more laughable when there's evidence of actual ridiculousness afoot.

edit: I'm really tired of hearing the agenda angle, and OH if it were another poster...bull****. Whether its a sox thread or a bulls thread or whatever, any negativity from any poster is being met with such outright homer-ism lately its childish. Learn to discuss instead of attack. The problem isn't the negative ideas. It's the way you're incapable of processing them.

http://img.pandawhale.com/53239-seinfeld-gif-Tsbh.gif

doublem23
04-04-2013, 01:21 PM
There is zero reason I should be attacked for predicting, and this is a prediction COMPETITION thread, that a manager in Robin's position could go first. And it's even more laughable when there's evidence of actual ridiculousness afoot.

For the ****ing millionth time, nobody is attacking you

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 02:09 PM
The Sox are not favored to be good. They won 85 games last year. They aren't many (or any that I can find) that predict them to even do that well this year.

Yes, you've said this before, but you haven't explained why the Sox's predicted struggles would be sufficient to get Robin Ventura fired or cause him to resign. Nothing I've seen from Robin suggests he's about to walk away from managing the Sox.

Between Robin outright talking about walking away and the chances of being fired, I don't see why you're attacking me.

No one is attacking you, as doublem23 already pointed out. I am attacking your position, which is an entirely different issue than an attack against you.

Managers dealt bad hands get fired every year. Managers get fired in year two all the time.

What does that have to do with Robin's status as manager of the Chicago White Sox?

I thought this was Robin's last year. Am I wrong on this?

An article (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/spring-headlines-robin-ventura-says-no-extension-mariano-110104546--mlb.html) published by Yahoo Sports specifically states that Ventura was offered a one-year contract extension by Rick Hahn that would have kept him under contract until 2015. Ventura's reason for turning down the extension was he wanted to prove that he was "still the right guy" for the job by the time his contract was up, rather than agreeing to an extension he didn't believe he'd earned.


"For them, I want them to have two years to think I知 still the right guy for the job for that to continue to go. It wasn稚 anything that was a big deal, so I知 not holding out for anything or disappointed in not wanting to stay here. I think at the end of that, that痴 when you talk about it. I知 not worried about trying to extend anything right now. I知 more worried with this team in this spring training than I知 worried about 2015.

The Tigers are a once in a generation type of team. They have the best pitcher in baseball, the best hitter in baseball, and the best left handed hitter in baseball. They've got one of the three best 1-5 rotations in baseball (probably the best). You can think that's not true all you want, but there are plenty more people that do see it that way. Baseball people, mostly. Yeah, they might be wrong. But are they wrong enough for Leyland to get fired? That's a phenomenal stretch on your part. I'm not taking that bet.

Prince Fielder is not the best left-handed hitter in baseball. That honor belongs to someone who plays on the West Coast. Why are you anointing the Tigers as the 2013 World Champions when the season is three days old? It seems to me that they had the best hitter, pitcher, and fat man in baseball last season, and they didn't win a damn thing!

Did I miss their World Series victory? I thought the Giants won the World Series. Am I wrong?

I don't see what our records in previous years have to do with the 2013 Tigers.

The Sox previous won-loss records have nothing to do with 2013 Tigers.

There is zero reason I should be attacked for predicting, and this is a prediction COMPETITION thread, that a manager in Robin's position could go first. And it's even more laughable when there's evidence of actual ridiculousness afoot.

Evidence? What evidence? Show me this supposed evidence!

edit: I'm really tired of hearing the agenda angle, and OH if it were another poster...bull****. Whether its a sox thread or a bulls thread or whatever, any negativity from any poster is being met with such outright homer-ism lately its childish.

You'll forgive me if I can't stop from laughing at this part. You don't like people accusing you of having an agenda? Stop posting nonsense that's not supported by facts. If you stick to posting material that can be supported with news articles and other reliable information, no one will find fault with you or your position on a particular issue. I certainly won't, even if I don't necessarily like what you've chosen to share.

Learn to discuss instead of attack. The problem isn't the negative ideas. It's the way you're incapable of processing them.

I'll limit what I say here because I'm not a moderator, but I would suggest you re-read the first and third lines of this passage.

blandman
04-04-2013, 05:46 PM
Yes, you've said this before, but you haven't explained why the Sox's predicted struggles would be sufficient to get Robin Ventura fired or cause him to resign. Nothing I've seen from Robin suggests he's about to walk away from managing the Sox.


If you want to ignore his statement after not renewing, that's fine. But don't act like there's no reason to suggest it.

No one is attacking you, as doublem23 already pointed out. I am attacking your position, which is an entirely different issue than an attack against you.


What the **** is wrong with you? What the **** is wrong with you?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that something was wrong with you. It's just that those are what those words mean. You know, in the literal sense.

What does that have to do with Robin's status as manager of the Chicago White Sox?


What does managers consistently being fired before their third season have to do with any second year manager? EVERYTHING


An article (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/spring-headlines-robin-ventura-says-no-extension-mariano-110104546--mlb.html) published by Yahoo Sports specifically states that Ventura was offered a one-year contract extension by Rick Hahn that would have kept him under contract until 2015. Ventura's reason for turning down the extension was he wanted to prove that he was "still the right guy" for the job by the time his contract was up, rather than agreeing to an extension he didn't believe he'd earned.


Right. Which means he isn't sure...




Prince Fielder is not the best left-handed hitter in baseball. That honor belongs to someone who plays on the West Coast. Why are you anointing the Tigers as the 2013 World Champions when the season is three days old? It seems to me that they had the best hitter, pitcher, and fat man in baseball last season, and they didn't win a damn thing!

You'd have really hard time arguing for anyone else if you look at the last five years. Not that you couldn't. But most arguments on it end with Fielder.

Did I miss their World Series victory? I thought the Giants won the World Series. Am I wrong?
How are the Giants going to cause the Tigers to fail in the regular season and get Leyland fired?


The Sox previous won-loss records have nothing to do with 2013 Tigers.

When did I imply they did? Unless you mean that our previous production has no bearing on projections for this year. If that's your position, fine. But don't knock empirical evidence as a type of evidence just because you don't' believe in it. You are welcome to disagree with it.


Evidence? What evidence? Show me this supposed evidence! That the average MLB manager doesn't last three years? That we're coming off a flop of a September? That Robin himself openly questioned whether he was right for the job?

I don't have time for this. You aren't looking at evidence. You're running an inquisition.



You'll forgive me if I can't stop from laughing at this part. You don't like people accusing you of having an agenda? Stop posting nonsense that's not supported by facts. If you stick to posting material that can be supported with news articles and other reliable information, no one will find fault with you or your position on a particular issue. I certainly won't, even if I don't necessarily like what you've chosen to share.



I'll limit what I say here because I'm not a moderator, but I would suggest you re-read the first and third lines of this passage.

What the **** is wrong with you? What the **** is wrong with you?

I've provided more than enough reasoning for my opinion. In a competition thread where I'm making a guess. What you're doing is trolling. I'm not a mod, but I suggest you reread what you wrote and realize your own god damn agenda.

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 06:55 PM
If you want to ignore his statement after not renewing, that's fine. But don't act like there's no reason to suggest it.

I'm not ignoring his statement at all. I included it in my previous post. He said he would wait until 2015 to worry about a contract extension. That doesn't mean he's going to quit.

The last time I signed a contract, I waited until the last possible day before I turned it in. Why? I wasn't having second thoughts about the job. I wanted to have time to review the contract and also to have an attorney review it, because my contract includes a "no compete" clause. I wanted to be sure that I understood the exact language of the clause, so that I didn't inadvertently violate the contract at a later time.

Robin's situation is different, but that doesn't mean he's going to quit. A number of athletes opt out of their contracts when possible not because they intend to walk, but because they want to test their market value as a negotiation tool. I don't know if that's what Ventura is doing, but nothing about his behavior this season has left me with the impression he questions his fitness as White Sox manager.

What the **** is wrong with you? What the **** is wrong with you?

I don't why you're repeating it, as I said it once in the original post.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that something was wrong with you. It's just that those are what those words mean. You know, in the literal sense.

My implying that you are in error (something is wrong with you) is an attack? Good grief!

What does managers consistently being fired before their third season have to do with any second year manager? EVERYTHING

Ridiculous. You cannot assume that Robin will lose his job based on other managerial changes, particularly not if the White Sox perform well. I know they're not expected to win, but expectations don't always have a basis in reality.

Right. Which means he isn't sure...

He said that he wants to be sure management is satisfied, not that he believes he isn't qualified. I've said similar things about myself, not because I was questioning my fitness for a particular job, but because I recognize that my wishes aren't necessarily those of the people around me. That's life. Robin understands that, and seems to have a good perspective on things.

You'd have really hard time arguing for anyone else if you look at the last five years. Not that you couldn't. But most arguments on it end with Fielder.

I don't buy that, because every time I hear "best left-handed hitter" mentioned, names like Hamilton, Votto, and Cano are the ones I hear mentioned most often. I've never heard Prince Fielder praised as the best left-handed hitter in baseball. I've never even heard his name praised as the best left-handed power hitter in baseball, as many people still believe that if Ryan Howard can stay healthy (not likely), that title remains his to lose.

If you can show me an article where Fielder is listed as the best left-handed in Major League Baseball, I'll reconsider my position.

How are the Giants going to cause the Tigers to fail in the regular season and get Leyland fired?

They aren't. That wasn't my point. You referred to the Detroit Tigers as "a once in a generation" team, citing the presence of Cabrera, Verlander, and Fielder as reasons why. I was simply pointing out that those three were also present last season, a season that saw the Tigers win absolutely nothing. How can you call a team that finished second best a "once in a generation team?" That's ridiculous.

When did I imply they did? Unless you mean that our previous production has no bearing on projections for this year. If that's your position, fine. But don't knock empirical evidence as a type of evidence just because you don't' believe in it. You are welcome to disagree with it.

That's exactly what I mean. One can estimate future production based on past performance, but an estimate is not a guarantee, something I've stressed over and over again on this board.

That the average MLB manager doesn't last three years? That we're coming off a flop of a September? That Robin himself openly questioned whether he was right for the job?

1. I addressed the first point earlier in this post.

2. The White Sox outperformed expectations, so it's hard to believe that anyone would fire Ventura over their September collapse. His job could certainly be in jeopardy if such a thing kept happening, but we're not at that point yet. Right now, Sox management is extremely pleased with Ventura and his staff. Until evidence surfaces that proves otherwise, I'm comfortable with Ventura as manager.

3. I addressed this point, as well. Ventura said nothing that led me to believe he questions his fitness for the job. He simply left open the possibility that management would change its mind, which is a realistic point of view. Robin played for several different managers during his time with the Sox, and he probably realizes that decisions regarding each person's job status weren't always made based on performance, and is mentally preparing himself for the possibility that factors beyond his control may determine his future as White Sox manager.

I don't have time for this. You aren't looking at evidence. You're running an inquisition.

If it makes you feel better, I don't have any plans to burn you at the stake.

What the **** is wrong with you? What the **** is wrong with you?

:rolling:

I've provided more than enough reasoning for my opinion. In a competition thread where I'm making a guess. What you're doing is trolling. I'm not a mod, but I suggest you reread what you wrote and realize your own god damn agenda.

You're accusing me of trolling when you pollute this board with more unsubstantiated bull**** than any other poster? That's rich.

blandman
04-04-2013, 07:15 PM
I'm not ignoring his statement at all. I included it in my previous post. He said he would wait until 2015 to worry about a contract extension. That doesn't mean he's going to quit.

The last time I signed a contract, I waited until the last possible day before I turned it in. Why? I wasn't having second thoughts about the job. I wanted to have time to review the contract and also to have an attorney review it, because my contract includes a "no compete" clause. I wanted to be sure that I understood the exact language of the clause, so that I didn't inadvertently violate the contract at a later time.

Robin's situation is different, but that doesn't mean he's going to quit. A number of athletes opt out of their contracts when possible not because they intend to walk, but because they want to test their market value as a negotiation tool. I don't know if that's what Ventura is doing, but nothing about his behavior this season has left me with the impression he questions his fitness as White Sox manager.



I don't why you're repeating it, as I said it once in the original post.



My implying that you are in error (something is wrong with you) is an attack? Good grief!



Ridiculous. You cannot assume that Robin will lose his job based on other managerial changes, particularly not if the White Sox perform well. I know they're not expected to win, but expectations don't always have a basis in reality.



He said that he wants to be sure management is satisfied, not that he believes he isn't qualified. I've said similar things about myself, not because I was questioning my fitness for a particular job, but because I recognize that my wishes aren't necessarily those of the people around me. That's life. Robin understands that, and seems to have a good perspective on things.



I don't buy that, because every time I hear "best left-handed hitter" mentioned, names like Hamilton, Votto, and Cano are the ones I hear mentioned most often. I've never heard Prince Fielder praised as the best left-handed hitter in baseball. I've never even heard his name praised as the best left-handed power hitter in baseball, as many people still believe that if Ryan Howard can stay healthy (not likely), that title remains his to lose.

If you can show me an article where Fielder is listed as the best left-handed in Major League Baseball, I'll reconsider my position.



They aren't. That wasn't my point. You referred to the Detroit Tigers as "a once in a generation" team, citing the presence of Cabrera, Verlander, and Fielder as reasons why. I was simply pointing out that those three were also present last season, a season that saw the Tigers win absolutely nothing. How can you call a team that finished second best a "once in a generation team?" That's ridiculous.



That's exactly what I mean. One can estimate future production based on past performance, but an estimate is not a guarantee, something I've stressed over and over again on this board.



1. I addressed the first point earlier in this post.

2. The White Sox outperformed expectations, so it's hard to believe that anyone would fire Ventura over their September collapse. His job could certainly be in jeopardy if such a thing kept happening, but we're not at that point yet. Right now, Sox management is extremely pleased with Ventura and his staff. Until evidence surfaces that proves otherwise, I'm comfortable with Ventura as manager.

3. I addressed this point, as well. Ventura said nothing that led me to believe he questions his fitness for the job. He simply left open the possibility that management would change its mind, which is a realistic point of view. Robin played for several different managers during his time with the Sox, and he probably realizes that decisions regarding each person's job status weren't always made based on performance, and is mentally preparing himself for the possibility that factors beyond his control may determine his future as White Sox manager.



If it makes you feel better, I don't have any plans to burn you at the stake.



:rolling:



You're accusing me of trolling when you pollute this board with more unsubstantiated bull**** than any other poster? That's rich.

RK I understand your argument for why you don't think Robin will lose his job. I just don't see why my argument is such a big deal/stretch. The only logical reason for denying my right to it is homerism, vendetta, or a combination of the two. My reasons are still accurate. They may not turn out to be right, but this is a prediction thread. Those factors can contribute to the outcome I've indicated.

Things aren't unsubstantiated bull**** when you're unwilling to acknowledge factors and their potential outcomes. Once again...this is a prediction thread. No one is talking about certainties. Only what might happen. Disagreeing with me is one thing. Indicating something is personally wrong with me because you don't want to hear it is so ****ing petty. If I were any other poster, it would be a violation of the board rules.

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 07:41 PM
RK I understand your argument for why you don't think Robin will lose his job. I just don't see why my argument is such a big deal/stretch.

Because nothing about Robin's situation indicates that he's unhappy in his job or that the Sox believe they made a mistake in offering it to him. Yes, he turned down the extension, but as I said, I think he recognizes the possibility that management may have a different perspective on his job performance in two years than they do today, and would rather earn a contract extension than risk being paid to do nothing if he's fired after 2014.

The only logical reason for denying my right to it is homerism, vendetta, or a combination of the two.

I'm not denying you the right to make an argument. I don't have the power to do that. I don't agree with your argument, but you're welcome to embarrass yourself at your convenience.

My reasons are still accurate. They may not turn out to be right, but this is a prediction thread. Those factors can contribute to the outcome I've indicated.

The reasons you've provided to justify your position are as follows:

1. Robin believes he's unfit for the job of White Sox manager.

2. Most MLB managers are fired before their third year.

Here's the problem with your reasons: Robin never said he believes he's not qualified for the position of Sox manager. I've re-posted what he said about his contract below:

的t痴 flattering and nice and everything," said Ventura, who agreed to a three-year deal in October of 2012 and had been offered an extension for the 2015 season from general manager Rick Hahn. "But in talking to Rick, we have two more years to do this. We have good communication and everything is fine. I think this is my contract. I was the same way as a player. I値l worry about it at the end of it.

"For them, I want them to have two years to think I知 still the right guy for the job for that to continue to go. It wasn稚 anything that was a big deal, so I知 not holding out for anything or disappointed in not wanting to stay here. I think at the end of that, that痴 when you talk about it. I知 not worried about trying to extend anything right now. I知 more worried with this team in this spring training than I知 worried about 2015.

Ventura makes his feelings perfectly clear. He says that the decision about whether he's the right man for the job lies with Sox management, which it does. He's absolutely correct in what he says. He never says that he believes he's not qualified for the job.

As far as your second statement is concerned, I took the liberty of combing through the current list of MLB managers. Of the thirty managers currently working in baseball, eighteen are in at least their third season with their current club. Another manager, John Farrell, in in his first season with Boston after choosing to take the Red Sox job because he's always dreamed of managing in Boston.

I've include the list (http://espn.go.com/mlb/managers) in this post, so that others may see it, as well.

Things aren't unsubstantiated bull**** when you're unwilling to acknowledge factors and their potential outcomes.

The factors you've used to justify your argument are incorrect. That's the problem.

Once again...this is a prediction thread. No one is talking about certainties. Only what might happen.

Yes, it is a prediction thread, but your predictions are based on nonsense. That's why I have a problem with them. No one else is making predictions based on the "factors" you're using.

Disagreeing with me is one thing. Indicating something is personally wrong with me because you don't want to hear it is so ****ing petty.

I said you were in error because you are. I'll remind you again of the points you made to justify your argument:

1. Robin Ventura believes he's unfit to manage the Chicago White Sox.

2. Most MLB mangers are fired before their third year.

Ventura never said that, as has been pointed out before, and I've addressed your second point. I don't believe something is wrong with you because I don't want to hear your arguments. I don't want to hear your arguments because your arguments are wrong. If you can present an argument that makes more sense, I'll be happy to listen, but you've yet to do so.

blandman
04-04-2013, 07:51 PM
Because nothing about Robin's situation indicates that he's unhappy in his job or that the Sox believe they made a mistake in offering it to him. Yes, he turned down the extension, but as I said, I think he recognizes the possibility that management may have a different perspective on his job performance in two years than they do today, and would rather earn a contract extension than risk being paid to do nothing if he's fired after 2014.



I'm not denying you the right to make an argument. I don't have the power to do that. I don't agree with your argument, but you're welcome to embarrass yourself at your convenience.



The reasons you've provided to justify your position are as follows:

1. Robin believes he's unfit for the job of White Sox manager.

2. Most MLB managers are fired before their third year.

Here's the problem with your reasons: Robin never said he believes he's not qualified for the position of Sox manager. I've re-posted what he said about his contract below:



Ventura makes his feelings perfectly clear. He says that the decision about whether he's the right man for the job lies with Sox management, which it does. He's absolutely correct in what he says. He never says that he believes he's not qualified for the job.

As far as your second statement is concerned, I took the liberty of combing through the current list of MLB managers. Of the thirty managers currently working in baseball, eighteen are in at least their third season with their current club. Another manager, John Farrell, in in his first season with Boston after choosing to take the Red Sox job because he's always dreamed of managing in Boston.

I've include the list (http://espn.go.com/mlb/managers) in this post, so that others may see it, as well.



The factors you've used to justify your argument are incorrect. That's the problem.



Yes, it is a prediction thread, but your predictions are based on nonsense. That's why I have a problem with them. No one else is making predictions based on the "factors" you're using.



I said you were in error because you are. I'll remind you again of the points you made to justify your argument:

1. Robin Ventura believes he's unfit to manage the Chicago White Sox.

2. Most MLB mangers are fired before their third year.

Ventura never said that, as has been pointed out before, and I've addressed your second point. I don't believe something is wrong with you because I don't want to hear your arguments. I don't want to hear your arguments because your arguments are wrong. If you can present an argument that makes more sense, I'll be happy to listen, but you've yet to do so.

You keep repeating the same non-factors over and over again.

You BELIEVE Ventura's statements mean one thing. I believe they, along with the fact that he initially didn't want the job either, mean another. Yeah, I might be wrong. But it's based on something. Something tangible. Something not completely a stretch. And certainly something that doesn't warrant an individual saying that there is something wrong with me personally for thinking.

The average tenure of an MLB coach is less than 4 years. The odds of coaching less than three is more than 70%. Going through the current coaches doesn't make a lot of sense. It's about median, not mean. Mean tells you nothing.

In truth, Robin's in the year that determines most coaches' fates. And he's coming off a season where his team fell apart in September. Yeah...no one expected him to get that far. But it still happened. That's a viable reason people lose their jobs. Sure, you can argue the organization won't see it that way. But to argue that there's no way they will? What are YOU basing that on? Because history is FULL of instances that managers get the early can.

I like how you left that out the last time. At least it seems you're conceding it, even if you won't admit it.

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 08:01 PM
You keep repeating the same non-factors over and over again.

You BELIEVE Ventura's statements mean one thing. I believe they, along with the fact that he initially didn't want the job either, mean another. Yeah, I might be wrong. But it's based on something. Something tangible. Something not completely a stretch. And certainly something that doesn't warrant an individual saying that there is something wrong with me personally for thinking.

You have never presented what that "something" is, munch. That's the problem I have with your argument. Show me this "tangible" material, and I'll rethink my argument.

The average tenure of an MLB coach is less than 4 years. The odds of coaching less than three is more than 70%. Going through the current coaches doesn't make a lot of sense. It's about median, not mean. Mean tells you nothing.

Where did you obtain these statistics from? Again, you need to provide evidence that supports your statements, or I don't have to take them seriously.

In truth, Robin's in the year that determines most coaches' fates. And he's coming off a season where his team fell apart in September. Yeah...no one expected him to get that far. But it still happened. That's a viable reason people lose their jobs. Sure, you can argue the organization won't see it that way. But to argue that there's no way they will? What are YOU basing that on? Because history is FULL of instances that managers get the early can.

I never said that. Show me where I said, "There's no way he gets fired."

I like how you left that out the last time. At least it seems you're conceding it, even if you won't admit it.

I'm not conceding anything to you. That you would believe otherwise proves that you just don't get it.

HomeFish
04-04-2013, 08:10 PM
Yes. I get the feeling he's biding his time, more than anything else. If things turn, I don't think he'd hesitate.

:darkclouds:

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 08:11 PM
:darkclouds:

HomeFish, this post made me smile. Thank you. :cool:

blandman
04-04-2013, 08:11 PM
You have never presented what that "something" is, munch. That's the problem I have with your argument. Show me this "tangible" material, and I'll rethink my argument.



Where did you obtain these statistics from? Again, you need to provide evidence that supports your statements, or I don't have to take them seriously.



I never said that. Show me where I said, "There's no way he gets fired."



I'm not conceding anything to you. That you would believe otherwise proves that you just don't get it.

Ventura's statements are tangible. Interpreting different from me is not the same as me not providing evidence. I know you're not simple, so you're ****ing trolling me. Stop it.

bookofodds.com has stats on pretty much anything. here's an article about coaches that shows some of the same stuff http://www.bookofodds.com/Daily-Life-Activities/Sports/Articles/A0763-Head-Coach-Don-t-Let-the-Door-Hit-You-on-the-Way-Out. the numbers are a bit off the last time I looked, but still strongly support me. But really...as a baseball fan, this is more of a common knowledge sort of thing. So it REALLY feels like you're trolling me.

Countering my claim that he COULD be fired (as a prediction) IS saying he can't be fired. Don't give me that BS.

I get everything you're saying, you just aren't saying anything substantial, mixed in with personal jabs.

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 08:22 PM
Ventura's statements are tangible. Interpreting different from me is not the same as me not providing evidence. I know you're not simple, so you're ****ing trolling me. Stop it.

Once again, Ventura never said that he doesn't believe he's the right person to manage the Chicago White Sox. He said that the decisions rests with management, which is absolutely correct.

bookofodds.com has stats on pretty much anything. here's an article about coaches that shows some of the same stuff http://www.bookofodds.com/Daily-Life-Activities/Sports/Articles/A0763-Head-Coach-Don-t-Let-the-Door-Hit-You-on-the-Way-Out. the numbers are a bit off the last time I looked, but still strongly support me. But really...as a baseball fan, this is more of a common knowledge sort of thing. So it REALLY feels like you're trolling me.

I'm trolling you because you've read an article that I haven't. What? I'll admit that you correctly cited the statistics about MLB managers not lasting four years in a given job. You were correct on that point, as the article supports your statement.

Countering my claim that he COULD be fired (as a prediction) IS saying he can't be fired. Don't give me that BS.

That's my point, though. I never said he couldn't be fired, and you haven't proven otherwise. I said that there wasn't any evidence to suggest that he would be, as the Sox are pleased with his performance as manager.

I get everything you're saying, you just aren't saying anything substantial, mixed in with personal jabs.I'm not going to dignify this last point with a response.

blandman
04-04-2013, 08:30 PM
Once again, Ventura never said that he doesn't believe he's the right person to manage the Chicago White Sox. He said that the decisions rests with management, which is absolutely correct.


KW was quoted saying Ventura told him exactly that when he first approached him about the job. And that he had to convince him otherwise.


I'm trolling you because you've read an article that I haven't. What? I'll admit that you correctly cited the statistics about MLB managers not lasting four years in a given job. You were correct on that point, as the article supports your statement.


You're trolling because I know you already know that. You're not new to baseball or the board. Most managers get canned in the first two years. Common knowledge.


That's my point, though. I never said he couldn't be fired, and you haven't proven otherwise. I said that there wasn't any evidence to suggest that he would be, as the Sox are pleased with his performance as manager.

Not accepting evidence is not the same as no evidence. Between Ventura's statement, manager statistics, and the cliff the last team fell off (which now you've continued not to mention twice), the evidence is there. Don't agree with it? Fine. That's not the same as no evidence.

I'm not going to dignify this last point with a response.
Are you sure you wouldn't like to tell me what's wrong with me or that I've got a personal agenda or liken me to Jay Mariotti? No? Okay, maybe next time.

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 08:42 PM
KW was quoted saying Ventura told him exactly that when he first approached him about the job. And that he had to convince him otherwise.

Was there ever a direct quote from Ventura himself saying that? I don't attach much credibility to Williams' statements, because he's just as likely to say something stupid as he is useful. Furthermore, even if Ventura said that before taking the job, that doesn't mean he still feels that way now that he's held the job for more than one full season, and nothing he's said since the start of Spring Training suggests otherwise, as I've pointed out to you multiple times.

You're trolling because I know you already know that. You're not new to baseball or the board. Most managers get canned in the first two years. Common knowledge.

You know that I already knew this? I'd love to see you prove that one. More nonsense.

Not accepting evidence is not the same as no evidence. Between Ventura's statement, manager statistics, and the cliff the last team fell off (which now you've continued not to mention twice), the evidence is there. Don't agree with it? Fine. That's not the same as no evidence.

Once again, Ventura has said nothing this season that suggests he doesn't believe he's the right man for the job, and you can't keep using that- or his turning down an extension- as evidence to support your argument when the evidence doesn't even exist.

Are you sure you wouldn't like to tell me what's wrong with me or that I've got a personal agenda or liken me to Jay Mariotti? No? Okay, maybe next time.

I didn't compare you to Jay Mariotti. That was said by another poster, so I don't know why you're throwing that in my face. Calling me out for something I never said isn't a smart move.

blandman
04-04-2013, 08:48 PM
Was there ever a direct quote from Ventura himself saying that? I don't attach much credibility to Williams' statements, because he's just as likely to say something stupid as he is useful. Furthermore, even if Ventura said that before taking the job, that doesn't mean he still feels that way now that he's held the job for more than one full season, and nothing he's said since the start of Spring Training suggests otherwise, as I've pointed out to you multiple times.


"There was a lot of (apprehension) when I first went home to talk to my wife about it," Ventura said. "It turned us upside down. I have a good thing going and it was easy getting back into the game doing what I was doing. I had the freedom to coach and come back home. I think there was a lot of comfort in talking to the family that this was the White Sox, which for us is an extended family."



I didn't compare you to Jay Mariotti. That was said by another poster, so I don't know why you're throwing that in my face. Calling me out for something I never said isn't a smart move.

Sorry, sometimes it's hard to keep track, what with all the "not personal attacks" directed at me on this board. :D:

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 08:53 PM
"There was a lot of (apprehension) when I first went home to talk to my wife about it," Ventura said. "It turned us upside down. I have a good thing going and it was easy getting back into the game doing what I was doing. I had the freedom to coach and come back home. I think there was a lot of comfort in talking to the family that this was the White Sox, which for us is an extended family."

I have a hard time reading that as "I'm not the right man for the job." It certainly seems as though he was hesitant about taking it, but I'll be honest and say that I don't know what the cause of his hesitation is, based on that quote. I do appreciate you finding it.

Edit: The ESPN Chicago article (http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7068083/chicago-white-sox-name-robin-ventura-manager) published after Ventura was hired expands on the idea. Ventura was working as a special advisor to Buddy Bell before he was named manager. It sounds like his comment was in reference to the enormous change in his responsibilities, as being field manager would entail a greater committment than his advisory role, hence, his comment about "having the freedom to coach and come back home." I'm sorry, munch. I just don't see in his comments what you're seeing. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Sorry, sometimes it's hard to keep track, what with all the "not personal attacks" directed at me on this board. :D:

No comment.

blandman
04-04-2013, 09:07 PM
I have a hard time reading that as "I'm not the right man for the job." It certainly seems as though he was hesitant about taking it, but I'll be honest and say that I don't know what the cause of his hesitation is, based on that quote. I do appreciate you finding it.


It was mostly in reference to Robin wanting to stay home instead of coaching, and being apprehensive about jumping directly into that role as opposed to a lesser coach. KW went on to elaborate on that with specifics on support structure and stuff in order to convince him managing wouldn't be a big deal. Most of this happened at his hiring press conference. But initially Robin was not going to say yes.

RKMeibalane
04-04-2013, 09:11 PM
It was mostly in reference to Robin wanting to stay home instead of coaching, and being apprehensive about jumping directly into that role as opposed to a lesser coach. KW went on to elaborate on that with specifics on support structure and stuff in order to convince him managing wouldn't be a big deal. Most of this happened at his hiring press conference. But initially Robin was not going to say yes.

Yes, I included that in my edit of my above post. I still have a hard time reading as his questioning his fitness for the job. The reality is, being a field manager is a much greater responsiblity than being a special advisor, and making the transition from advisor to manager would be difficult for even an experienced manager. It's not surprising that Robin would be hesitant, but I don't see his hesitancy as his questioning his qualifications for the job. He did take the job (albeit with Williams' encouragement), which he was by no means obligated to do if he didn't believe he was qualified.

As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see in his comments what you're seeing.

johnny bench
04-11-2013, 12:02 PM
Any who....

Yeah, he's under contract till 2018 @ $5M per year, but Mike Scioscia is my pick. Calling a team meeting only 7 games into the season (http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-mike-scioscia-calls-angels-team-meeting-20130411,0,4810260.story) is a clear sign that he knows that he is on a very short lease. Panic in LA.

Moreno wants to win, and has shown that he isn't afraid to eat a bad contract (see Vernon Wells). DiPoto didn't hire him and wants him gone. Check the Angels forum - he has little support there.

Even the presence of the Astros isn't enough to save him; the Astros are ahead of the Angels in the standings right now.

He won't be the Angels manager when they come to Chicago on May 10th.

SoxFanCPA
04-11-2013, 01:41 PM
Any who....

Yeah, he's under contract till 2018 @ $5M per year, but Mike Scioscia is my pick. Calling a team meeting only 7 games into the season (http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-mike-scioscia-calls-angels-team-meeting-20130411,0,4810260.story) is a clear sign that he knows that he is on a very short lease. Panic in LA.

Moreno wants to win, and has shown that he isn't afraid to eat a bad contract (see Vernon Wells). DiPoto didn't hire him and wants him gone. Check the Angels forum - he has little support there.

Even the presence of the Astros isn't enough to save him; the Astros are ahead of the Angels in the standings right now.

He won't be the Angels manager when they come to Chicago on May 10th.

I find it hard to believe that the Angels would eat $30 million.