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DSpivack
03-20-2013, 07:11 PM
Story forthcoming, per Scott Merkin:

https://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/314513439718518784

blandman
03-20-2013, 07:44 PM
Why Axelrod, when there are two guys ahead of him on the depth chart that are a lot better?

DSpivack
03-20-2013, 07:57 PM
Why Axelrod, when there are two guys ahead of him on the depth chart that are a lot better?

Who would that be? The only one I can think of is Santiago. Is he stretched out?

blandman
03-20-2013, 08:41 PM
Who would that be? The only one I can think of is Santiago. Is he stretched out?

Well, I'm including Quintana, since he and Santiago are battling for that 5th starter role. I don't understand why you wouldn't start those two since it's a complete unknown when Danks will be able to be back and effective.

DSpivack
03-20-2013, 08:45 PM
Well, I'm including Quintana, since he and Santiago are battling for that 5th starter role. I don't understand why you wouldn't start those two since it's a complete unknown when Danks will be able to be back and effective.

Oh, I was assuming Quintana was the 5th guy in the rotation with Danks healthy. With Danks on the DL, I was thinking Quintana gets bumped up to #4, and Axelrod/Santiago/whomever battles it out for the fifth slot.

mzh
03-20-2013, 08:59 PM
Well, I'm including Quintana, since he and Santiago are battling for that 5th starter role. I don't understand why you wouldn't start those two since it's a complete unknown when Danks will be able to be back and effective.
A few people, including Cooper if I recall correctly (I could be wrong), have said that it is and has been Quintana's job to lose. He's pitched to a 1.35 ERA this spring, so I don't forsee that changing.

Axelrod has been good thus far as well. Santiago has had some control issues, although I don't know how much that pertains to consistently working on breaking stuff.

blandman
03-20-2013, 09:26 PM
A few people, including Cooper if I recall correctly (I could be wrong), have said that it is and has been Quintana's job to lose. He's pitched to a 1.35 ERA this spring, so I don't forsee that changing.

Axelrod has been good thus far as well. Santiago has had some control issues, although I don't know how much that pertains to consistently working on breaking stuff.

I guess my biggest issue is the extensive talent gap between the two. I know in limited numbers Axelrod's had some success, but I really don't see him sticking on a major league roster with what he brings.

sullythered
03-20-2013, 09:36 PM
I guess my biggest issue is the extensive talent gap between the two. I know in limited numbers Axelrod's had some success, but I really don't see him sticking on a major league roster with what he brings.

If they thought it was going to be an extended period of time, I'm sure it would be Santiago. Since it's gonna be Axelrod, I suspect that they think it won't be for long.

amsteel
03-20-2013, 09:36 PM
Not surprising, but this adds to my already less than positive feeling for the year.

LoveYourSuit
03-20-2013, 09:42 PM
This Danks contract has a chance to be as epic a disaster as Jaime Navarro was (one of the other only times JR opened the wallet on long term money to for a SP).


The only chance I gave the Sox this year was with solid SP from 1-2-3. Danks would have been part of that plan.

Not good.

blandman
03-20-2013, 09:46 PM
If they thought it was going to be an extended period of time, I'm sure it would be Santiago. Since it's gonna be Axelrod, I suspect that they think it won't be for long.

I hope you're right. I never get that concept though. He's the long man for a reason. You should be able to stretch him out over the course of one outing to get him acclimated to starting. Otherwise, what are we doing with him? Shouldn't we be preparing Santiago for the possibility of a starting role? He's next in line if any of five guys go down long term.

blandman
03-20-2013, 09:50 PM
This Danks contract has a chance to be as epic a disaster as Jaime Navarro was (one of the other only times JR opened the wallet on long term money to for a SP).


The only chance I gave the Sox this year was with solid SP from 1-2-3. Danks would have been part of that plan.

Not good.

From a throwing pitches perspective, he hasn't looked all that great. I don't know how realistic that ever was. Danks' injury is something that's easy to come back from, but it takes a long time. Usually pitchers aren't back to the same level of effectiveness until between 12 and 18 months after surgery.

#1swisher
03-20-2013, 09:56 PM
Dan Hayes

Robin Ventura said reason John Danks will start season on DL is not enough velo yet, difference between FB and changeup.

sullythered
03-20-2013, 10:04 PM
I hope you're right. I never get that concept though. He's the long man for a reason. You should be able to stretch him out over the course of one outing to get him acclimated to starting. Otherwise, what are we doing with him? Shouldn't we be preparing Santiago for the possibility of a starting role? He's next in line if any of five guys go down long term.

I'm not saying that it is what I would do, I'm just saying it is probably indicative of what they are thinking.

WhiteSox5187
03-20-2013, 10:25 PM
This Danks contract has a chance to be as epic a disaster as Jaime Navarro was (one of the other only times JR opened the wallet on long term money to for a SP).


The only chance I gave the Sox this year was with solid SP from 1-2-3. Danks would have been part of that plan.

Not good.

Well, the difference is that Danks wound up getting hurt. Navarro was just bad.

russ99
03-20-2013, 10:39 PM
Well, the difference is that Danks wound up getting hurt. Navarro was just bad.

Plus, Danks should get better, he's obviously trying to get back too fast.

Hopefully everything is OK physically.

I understand the trepidation with his contract, but lets give him a shot to get healthy over the next month or month and and a half.

Besides, its a good idea to have a starter with less of a inning workload later in the season. Lets see what the kids can do.

Tragg
03-21-2013, 12:05 AM
This Danks contract has a chance to be as epic a disaster as Jaime Navarro was (one of the other only times JR opened the wallet on long term money to for a SP).



Nope.
Danks cost us nothing but money.
Navarro cost us wins.
Better to not pitch at all than to pitch like Navarro did.

One thing, though: Scheuler did a nifty escape from the contract; hopefully it won't come to that for Danks.

BainesHOF
03-21-2013, 12:53 AM
I hope I'm wrong, but it wouldn't shock me if Danks doesn't win another game. I'm having Jim Parque flashbacks.

I never understood what Williams saw in Danks to give him such a big contract. He's never had great stuff. His stuff leaves him very little margin for error and that doesn't lead to consistently winning.

I still think our pitching is going to be good.

thomas35forever
03-21-2013, 01:05 AM
He really needs a good year or his future is really up in the air.

DSpivack
03-21-2013, 01:10 AM
He really needs a good year or his future is really up in the air.

His future isn't up in the air, though, that's the problem. The Sox will be paying him $15.75 million through the 2016 season.

LoveYourSuit
03-21-2013, 01:11 AM
From a throwing pitches perspective, he hasn't looked all that great. I don't know how realistic that ever was. Danks' injury is something that's easy to come back from, but it takes a long time. Usually pitchers aren't back to the same level of effectiveness until between 12 and 18 months after surgery.

Part of what's frustrating to me is that this was all supose to be a minor clean up (surgery) of the shoulder and being ready for opening day would not be an issue. I believe Ventura and Coop both confirmed this when the surgery took place. OD 2013 was not going to be an issue. And here we are.

LoveYourSuit
03-21-2013, 01:14 AM
His future isn't up in the air, though, that's the problem. The Sox will be paying him $15.75 million through the 2016 season.

Agreed. He's set for life, meanwhile the Sox are screwed. Not saying the guy will never crack the rotation again, but the Sox are paying for the guy they thought they had in '08. Not sure Danks will ever pitch at that level.

JB98
03-21-2013, 01:27 AM
I wouldn't panic about this just yet. It's concerning, yes, but a lot of times the first year back after surgery is pretty rough on pitchers.

Jake Peavy had surgery in 2010. He was a much better pitcher in 2012 than he was in 2011. His ERA was nearly 5 his first year back from surgery. Last year in the second year back, it was 3.37 -- which was right around career average for Jake and very good by American League standards.

I think this is going to be a tough year for John Danks. In fact, I think it will be ugly at times. However, I don't think it necessarily means he's done.

KRS1
03-21-2013, 02:31 AM
I wouldn't panic about this just yet. It's concerning, yes, but a lot of times the first year back after surgery is pretty rough on pitchers.

Jake Peavy had surgery in 2010. He was a much better pitcher in 2012 than he was in 2011. His ERA was nearly 5 his first year back from surgery. Last year in the second year back, it was 3.37 -- which was right around career average for Jake and very good by American League standards.

I think this is going to be a tough year for John Danks. In fact, I think it will be ugly at times. However, I don't think it necessarily means he's done.
Exactly. I don't know why anyone is panicking at all. This was entirely expected, in fact, I thought the Sox would be prudent to hold him out until the break and send him to EST as his warmup. He is already way ahead of my expected schedule, so I'm fine with some "setbacks" here and there along his recovery. It's important to get him 100% right so we don't risk pouring that contract completely down the drain.

Lip Man 1
03-21-2013, 05:09 AM
Gonzo said the Sox want to keep Santiago in the bullpen as a reliable long relief guy.

Lip

103 screwball
03-21-2013, 07:42 AM
I see this as a positive for the Sox. I was worried that they would reward Danks for his hard work and out of respect, let him start the season with the big league team. Then he would lose a bunch of games as he continued to get back into shape. Instead, I see this as doing what is best for the team. Reward Axelrod for having a solid spring training do what they think will help the team win in April. Danks is such a competitor, he would have pushed himself hard trying to win. If he is rehabbing a few more weeks in the minors, he hopefully will be less likely to risk over doing it. April is a crucial month for the Sox because I think a bad April hurts fan enthusiasm for the team and fewer people come to games until they hit a good long winning streak.

Looking forward to the season. There is nothing greener than the first glimpse of the grass from the concourse in the spring. I can smell the grilled onions already.

102605
03-21-2013, 09:39 AM
He can keep his brother company in AAA for a few weeks. No big deal.

SI1020
03-21-2013, 10:38 AM
I hope I'm wrong, but it wouldn't shock me if Danks doesn't win another game. I'm having Jim Parque flashbacks.

I never understood what Williams saw in Danks to give him such a big contract. He's never had great stuff. His stuff leaves him very little margin for error and that doesn't lead to consistently winning.

I still think our pitching is going to be good. I agree completely with your assessment of Danks. I'm cautiously hopeful that your last sentence will be proven right.

amsteel
03-21-2013, 11:13 AM
Because of how good he can be, and the amount of money the Sox have tied up in him, I would have no problem with Danks 'Derrick Rose'-ing it and sitting out an extended period of time to make sure that he is 100% when he come back. Not 75%, not 90%, not 99.9%. 100%.

doublem23
03-21-2013, 11:16 AM
Because of how good he can be, and the amount of money the Sox have tied up in him, I would have no problem with Danks 'Derrick Rose'-ing it and sitting out an extended period of time to make sure that he is 100% when he come back. Not 75%, not 90%, not 99.9%. 100%.

If there is one thing the Sox do well, it is protect their players from injury better than most teams. They've racked up, by far, the smallest amount of time lost to injury of any team over the last several years. They seem to have an A+ medical staff, so whatever decisions they reach with Danks will be good with me. It's why I wasn't concerned with his schedule that tried to get him back in time for Opening Day. It's why I'm not concerned now. There's a lot of business practices of this team that can be questioned; scouting, player development, draft strategy, public relations, etc., but their medical team is second to none.

blandman
03-21-2013, 12:14 PM
Part of what's frustrating to me is that this was all supose to be a minor clean up (surgery) of the shoulder and being ready for opening day would not be an issue. I believe Ventura and Coop both confirmed this when the surgery took place. OD 2013 was not going to be an issue. And here we are.

Well...it's frustrating because you believed those two over medical history. A torn shoulder capsule isn't something to sneer at. Look at the history of those who had similar issues...Mark Prior, Chien Ming-Wang, Rich Harden, Johan Santana...it's a LONG road back and not a sure thing. I don't think it should be frustrating that Danks won't be anywhere near ready or effective this year. What's frustrating was the baseless assumption that it was likely.

edit: looks like there's a really good read on this at SBnation if anyone's interested. Warning: it's not a positive outlook on this type of injury. http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/3/20/4125648/john-danks-torn-shoulder-capsule-surgery-pitchers

SoxNation05
03-21-2013, 01:19 PM
If Danks really is going to be a huge bust I don't think this will be the injury that proves so. It's a lengthy recovery and being cautious is okay with me because I have faith in the guys behind him. Hopefully he can give us 25-30 starts and come back in full form in 2014. The first year after a should surgery is usually tough for a pitcher and they usually get the arm back to full strength the second season following surgery.

Regardless, I like how our rotation looks right now.

1.) Sale
2.) Peavy
3.) Floyd
4.) Quintana
5.) Axelrod
LR/6). Santiago


We all know what to expect with 1-3. While the verdict is still out on Quintana I think things are looking up for him. Last year he threw 184 innings and before that he never threw over 103. Hopefully that was the reason for his rough September rather than teams figuring him out. Either way, his spring stats have been great and I've read his changeup has improved along with his ability to throw to his arm side of the plate.

Axelrod is another guy who is having a great spring. Him starting, say 3-4 games in April isn't the worst thing ever. While I remember cringing seeing his name in the probables last season I have a new found hope for him. All we need him to do is pitch 5-7 innings while only allowing 2-4 runs. I just want our #5 spot to keep us in the game.

Santiago is a guy I like a lot more than Axelrod in terms of stuff/talent but I guess he isn't locating his off speed stuff as well as the team had hoped. Regardless, its a luxury to have a guy who can come out of the pen and give you four solid innings after a starter gets knocked out early.

Lip Man 1
03-21-2013, 02:00 PM
Gonzo says Crain might also start season on DL.

Lip

#1swisher
03-21-2013, 02:16 PM
Scott Merkin
Crain is now a question mark for Opening Day. Started feeling discomfort in the adductor after 10 pitches on Wednesday

Falstaff
03-21-2013, 03:07 PM
Well...it's frustrating because you believed those two over medical history. A torn shoulder capsule isn't something to sneer at. Look at the history of those who had similar issues...Mark Prior, Chien Ming-Wang, Rich Harden, Johan Santana...it's a LONG road back and not a sure thing. I don't think it should be frustrating that Danks won't be anywhere near ready or effective this year. What's frustrating was the baseless assumption that it was likely.

edit: looks like there's a really good read on this at SBnation if anyone's interested. Warning: it's not a positive outlook on this type of injury. http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/3/20/4125648/john-danks-torn-shoulder-capsule-surgery-pitchers

I would add that Danks needs to take up bowling with a light ball for next few months. That motion/resistance will build up the complementary shoulder muscles and slow-twitch fibers. Johnny just hang out at Gage Park Bowl or Marzanos and feel it getting stronger.

Chez
03-22-2013, 07:28 AM
Dylan Axelrod in the rotation for any longer than 2-3 starts makes me very nervous. He's an acceptable emergency starter -- but that's it.

SephClone89
03-22-2013, 07:45 AM
I would add that Danks needs to take up bowling with a light ball for next few months. That motion/resistance will build up the complementary shoulder muscles and slow-twitch fibers. Johnny just hang out at Gage Park Bowl or Marzanos and feel it getting stronger.

Don't forget the knuckle-curve!

blandman
03-22-2013, 08:28 AM
I would add that Danks needs to take up bowling with a light ball for next few months. That motion/resistance will build up the complementary shoulder muscles and slow-twitch fibers. Johnny just hang out at Gage Park Bowl or Marzanos and feel it getting stronger.

I can just imagine the headlines if Danks isn't pitching but is bowling...

#1swisher
03-22-2013, 06:10 PM
Dan Hayes
John Danks will throw in a minor-league game on Sunday; Jesse Crain pitches in one on Saturday.

Mohoney
03-22-2013, 06:17 PM
This Danks contract has a chance to be as epic a disaster as Jaime Navarro was (one of the other only times JR opened the wallet on long term money to for a SP).


The only chance I gave the Sox this year was with solid SP from 1-2-3. Danks would have been part of that plan.

Not good.

Gavin Floyd needs to buck a career trend and be really, really good in April and May.

KenBerryGrab
03-23-2013, 12:14 PM
Gavin Floyd needs to buck a career trend and be really, really good in April and May.


He and Alexei both.

cards press box
03-23-2013, 12:20 PM
If Danks and Crain are both starting the season on the DL, then perhaps the Sox should put both Axelrod and Santiago in the bullpen and sign a pitcher to be the 5th starter until Danks increases his arm strength and is ready to start. Santiago can provide the Sox with long relief and Axelrod could cover some of the relief innings that Crain would normally pitch.

Who could the Sox sign as a 5th starter? One possible candidate is Jon Garland (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/03/jon-garland-likely-to-opt-out-of-mariners-contract.html), as Seattle is not prepared to give him a starting slot and Garland apparently will opt out of his contract with the Mariners.

Any thoughts?

sox1970
03-23-2013, 12:27 PM
If Danks and Crain are both starting the season on the DL, then perhaps the Sox should put both Axelrod and Santiago in the bullpen and sign a pitcher to be the 5th starter until Danks increases his arm strength and is ready to start. Santiago can provide the Sox with long relief and Axelrod could cover some of the relief innings that Crain would normally pitch.

Who could the Sox sign as a 5th starter? One possible candidate is Jon Garland (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/03/jon-garland-likely-to-opt-out-of-mariners-contract.html), as Seattle is not prepared to give him a starting slot and Garland apparently will opt out of his contract with the Mariners.

Any thoughts?

More than likely, the White Sox wouldn't be attractive to Garland. He's looking for an opportunity to get into a rotation and stay there. That just wouldn't be a good fit for either side.

The Sox will get by with Axelrod, and if they need to replace him while Danks is getting ready, we have some other options - Castro, Rienzo, Molina, or even Santiago.

cards press box
03-23-2013, 12:27 PM
This Danks contract has a chance to be as epic a disaster as Jaime Navarro was (one of the other only times JR opened the wallet on long term money to for a SP).


The only chance I gave the Sox this year was with solid SP from 1-2-3. Danks would have been part of that plan.

Not good.

I don't think so. All reports are that Danks does not have pain in his left shoulder but rather that he needs to build up arm strength. Remember, he only had the surgery 7 months ago. He will eventually build up that strength. I think he will be fine

I do concede that we likely won't see Danks pitch until mid-May or June. At that point, he should have arm strength built up to where he throw hard enough to be effective.

And I really don't see the comparison to Jaime Navarro. Navarro just pitched poorly -- that wasn't an injury situation.

Chez
03-23-2013, 12:41 PM
Blandman was right about Danks. There; I said it.

balke
03-23-2013, 01:30 PM
I heard on B&B this might be a deal where it takes 1-2 full years for Danks to regain his strength.

I think the Sox should really take a step back and decide what's going to happen with this team. Danks doesn't really change the outlook that much - but overall just look at the team.

I see about 9 guys on this list (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/?team=CHA) that I would expect to be gone in 2 years. Either retired, traded for prospects, or lost via free agency.

Of the top 8 money makers on this team I see about 4 who are somewhat worth the money. That's a tough list to look at. The bright spot is the 6 guys at the bottom.

DSpivack
03-24-2013, 03:15 PM
Danks gave up 4 HRs to Sox minor leaguers in a game today.

https://twitter.com/CST_soxvan/status/315903464288948225

salty99
03-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Who could the Sox sign as a 5th starter? One possible candidate is Jon Garland (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/03/jon-garland-likely-to-opt-out-of-mariners-contract.html), as Seattle is not prepared to give him a starting slot and Garland apparently will opt out of his contract with the Mariners.

Any thoughts?

Well that's out of the question since he just signed with the Rockies.

Foulke You
03-25-2013, 02:58 PM
If Danks and Crain are both starting the season on the DL, then perhaps the Sox should put both Axelrod and Santiago in the bullpen and sign a pitcher to be the 5th starter until Danks increases his arm strength and is ready to start. Santiago can provide the Sox with long relief and Axelrod could cover some of the relief innings that Crain would normally pitch.

Who could the Sox sign as a 5th starter? One possible candidate is Jon Garland (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/03/jon-garland-likely-to-opt-out-of-mariners-contract.html), as Seattle is not prepared to give him a starting slot and Garland apparently will opt out of his contract with the Mariners.

Any thoughts?
Freddy Garcia was recently released by the Padres. I know his stuff these days is similar to what Axelrod brings to the table but Freddy does have a lot of experience and knows how to pitch. What I would really like to see is Hahn target one of the surplus starting pitchers the Dodgers are carrying around. They have eight starters in camp and right now it looks like Ted Lilly, Aaron Harang, and Chris Capuano do not have a spot in their rotation. Any one of those three would likely be an upgrade over Axelrod.

salty99
03-25-2013, 03:07 PM
Leyson Septimo is also going on the DL.

Lip Man 1
03-25-2013, 06:07 PM
Don't ever like to see a guy get hurt, but I'm just glad he won't be pitching for the Sox. He's flat awful.

I've been told the only person in the organization who still thinks highly of him is Cooper because he throws 95.

Lot of guys throw 95 but it doesn't matter if guys zero in on it and blister it all over the park.

Lip

sox1970
03-25-2013, 07:41 PM
Leyson Septimo is also going on the DL.

Just buying time before they have to let him go. He's out of options.

Golden Sox
03-25-2013, 07:56 PM
It looks like the Danks signing could turn out to be one of the worse signings by Ken Williams. If they would of used that money signing Mark Buehrle, the White Sox would of probably been in the 2012 Playoffs. With Buehrle on the 2013 White Sox we would probably be the favorites to get into the 2013 Playoffs also. Unless somebody steps up, we need a 5th starter this year. The only way we're going to beat the Tigers is with superior pitching.

Mr. Jinx
03-25-2013, 08:06 PM
It looks like the Danks signing could turn out to be one of the worse signings by Ken Williams. If they would of used that money signing Mark Buehrle, the White Sox would of probably been in the 2012 Playoffs. With Buehrle on the 2013 White Sox we would probably be the favorites to get into the 2013 Playoffs also. Unless somebody steps up, we need a 5th starter this year. The only way we're going to beat the Tigers is with superior pitching.

No we wouldn't. Would have a decent chance to take a wild card spot? Sure. But we would not be favorites to do that over the #2 from the West or anyone in the East.

And if hindsight is 20/20, we paid Jake Peavy just about as much as Danks' entire contract to sit on the DL his first few years with the team.

shingo10
03-25-2013, 08:40 PM
It looks like the Danks signing could turn out to be one of the worse signings by Ken Williams. If they would of used that money signing Mark Buehrle, the White Sox would of probably been in the 2012 Playoffs. With Buehrle on the 2013 White Sox we would probably be the favorites to get into the 2013 Playoffs also. Unless somebody steps up, we need a 5th starter this year. The only way we're going to beat the Tigers is with superior pitching.


There was no way to predict this injury at all...no risk factors, no history, ect. It was just bad luck. When GM's sign players who have a history of performing bad or getting injured then I think they can be called out for bad signings.

#1swisher
04-10-2013, 05:55 PM
Scott Merkin
Danks was sitting at 87 velocity-wise so yesterday's start represented a move forward

Daryl Van Schouwen
Danks' velocity in yesterday's outing sat about 87 mph, Ventura said. Touched 89. So that's an improvement, at least.

amsteel
04-10-2013, 06:19 PM
Daryl Van Schouwen
Danks' velocity in yesterday's outing sat about 87 mph, Ventura said. Touched 89. So that's an improvement, at least.

He averaged 90 on the 4 seamer last year and 92 in '10 and '11, so it looks like he's close to where he was last year.

blandman
04-10-2013, 11:04 PM
He averaged 90 on the 4 seamer last year and 92 in '10 and '11, so it looks like he's close to where he was last year.

Velocity wise. The big issue coming back is going to be command.

mahagga73
04-12-2013, 04:20 PM
This Danks contract has a chance to be as epic a disaster as Jaime Navarro was (one of the other only times JR opened the wallet on long term money to for a SP).


The only chance I gave the Sox this year was with solid SP from 1-2-3. Danks would have been part of that plan.

Not good.
Yep. I hated that contract when they gave it to him, making gazillionaires of barely average pitchers seems to be a bad policy on the part of any team besides the Dodgers or Yankees, Red Sox, etc. Seemed to be an overreaction to Buerhle leaving. Hopefully, Danks can come back and pitch decently , and if they are not in contention, they can unload him to one of the high payroll suckers.

mahagga73
04-12-2013, 04:23 PM
There was no way to predict this injury at all...no risk factors, no history, ect. It was just bad luck. When GM's sign players who have a history of performing bad or getting injured then I think they can be called out for bad signings.
I agree about the luck part but I do not see where a pitcher barely above average in any regard commands that kind of contract. It was an overreaction to Buerhle leaving in my opinion. Sabermetrics and WAR might disagree with that statement, and I do like those things as useful baseball tools, but I thought it was a bad gamble at the start. Never thought Danks was anything special.