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View Full Version : How do you grade Rick Hahn's first off-season as White Sox GM?


doublem23
03-08-2013, 01:30 AM
Some key dates to consider:

October 26 - Hahn is officially introduced as White Sox GM, replacing his former boss Kenny Williams
October 30 - White Sox sign Jake Peavy to 2 year, $29 million extension with $15 million vesting option for 2015.
October 30 - White Sox exercise team option on Gavin Floyd's contract worth $9.5 million for 2013 season
November 21 - White Sox resign Dewayne Wise to 1 year, $700,000 contract
November 30 - Houston Astros claim Phillip Humber from White Sox off waivers
December 6 - White Sox select Angel Sanchez from Los Angeles Angels in Rule V Draft
December 10 - White Sox sign Jeff Keppinger to 3 year, $12 million contract
December 14 - Kevin Youkilis signs 1 year, $12 million contract with New York Yankees
December 26 - AJ Pierzynski signs 1 year, $7.5 million contract with Texas Rangers
January 18 - White Sox avoid arbitration with Alejandro de Aza and Gordon Beckham, signing each to one year contracts worth $2.075 million and $2.925 million respectively
January 25 - White Sox sign Matt Lindstrom to 1 year, $2.3 million contract with team option for 2014 at $4 million or $500 K buyout.
February 1 - White Sox select Lars Anderson off waivers from Arizona Diamondbacks.
February 22 - White Sox acquire Conor Gillaspie from San Francisco Giants in exchange for minor league pitcher Jeff Soptic. To make room for Gillaspie on 40-man roster, White Sox designate Lars Anderson for assignment, where he is selected by Toronto Blue Jays off waivers.
February 22 - White Sox come to terms with all pre-arbitration eligible players, most notably Dayan Viciedo, Addison Reed, and Chris Sale who will earn $2.6 million, $520 K, and $600 K in 2013. Sale's deal is later amended when he agrees to a long-term contract extension in March.
March 7 - Sox sign Chris Sale to 5 year, $32.5 million extension, with two option years potentially worth an additional $26 million.

doublem23
03-08-2013, 01:33 AM
I was going to go with a B/C range, but the Sale deal is hard to ignore. Hahn's long been known as the money guy in the Sox front office and he absolutely killed that one.

A

cards press box
03-08-2013, 06:40 AM
The Sale extension is a great move that gives the Sox an opportunity to be a perennial playoff contender in the forseeable future. Grade of A so far.

34rancher
03-08-2013, 06:52 AM
I went with C since I felt like sox were average compared with th rest of MLB. No glaring free agents gained or lost. AJ wasn't coming back no matter what my opinion was. There were some minor additions to bullpen, which should help. I just had to keep reminding myself that no one in MLB did too much. However in today's grade inflated society that must mean a B.

DumpJerry
03-08-2013, 07:49 AM
I won't vote until Opening Day and I get a chance to see how fresh the churros are.

russ99
03-08-2013, 09:43 AM
I went with D(+), but most of that isn't Hahn's fault.

A lower level of payroll than than 3-5 years ago and hamstrung by big contracts and neglect of the farm system/drafting policy didn't leave him with much to work with.

Keppinger was a good signing if he can get healthy, but leaving us with a Class AA backup catcher and one of the weakest benches in the AL isn't so good.

Glad he inherited a pretty good pitching staff with a number of good young cost-controlled arms. I don't especially agree with the Peavy signing, but that could have been a Jerry-backed "butts-in-seats" move. I like Sale's deal, but there's risk involved for both the Sox and the player, and such high numbers in later years could be a millstone if he gets hurt and can't live up to potential. I'd have preferred a shorter deal, then an un-Jerry like move of paying the guy what he's worth if he becomes what we think he can.

Would have really liked to have seen another deal to bring in a young hitter with patience and can hit to all fields with average to reduce our homer-or-nothing approach, and one of Viciedo, Flowers or Beckham sold high on potential.

Noneck
03-08-2013, 09:50 AM
Im going to have problems rating Hahn considering he has two layers above him that are directly involved.

doublem23
03-08-2013, 09:56 AM
I like Sale's deal, but there's risk involved for both the Sox and the player, and such high numbers in later years could be a millstone if he gets hurt and can't live up to potential. I'd have preferred a shorter deal, then an un-Jerry like move of paying the guy what he's worth if he becomes what we think he can.

High number? Are you posting from 1980? There's only one guaranteed year worth over $10 M, which is EXTREMELY reasonable in this day in age for a pitcher of his quality. I don't see the shorter term deal logic, either, Sale was already under the Sox's control for 4 years, so all they've essentially done is extend is contract 1 extra guaranteed year but eliminated the uncertainty of price for the length of his deal. Pretty much any smart team or GM; Tampa Bay, San Francisco, St. Louis, etc. is making these moves nowadays.

russ99
03-08-2013, 09:59 AM
High number? Are you posting from 1980? There's only one guaranteed year worth over $10 M, which is EXTREMELY reasonable in this day in age for a pitcher of his quality. I don't see the shorter term deal logic, either, Sale was already under the Sox's control for 4 years, so all they've essentially done is extend is contract 1 extra guaranteed year but eliminated the uncertainty of price for the length of his deal. Pretty much any smart team or GM; Tampa Bay, San Francisco, St. Louis, etc. is making these moves nowadays.

Well, the issue here (that we had threads on this all winter) really is are we going to lose a year from him, and when he comes back, will he be as good?

I am glad they locked him up for a ridiculously good deal – if he pitches all those years.

You can't deny that its a big question mark if he pitches all those years at last year's level of quality. If there was a much lesser chance of severe injury based on the way he pitches, it would be a fantastic deal, which is probably why he signed it.

cws05champ
03-08-2013, 10:00 AM
You forgot that he traded Kenny Williams Jr right after he took over as well! Best move to date!! :D:

doublem23
03-08-2013, 10:06 AM
Well, the issue here (that we had threads on this all winter) really is are we going to lose a year from him, and when he comes back, will he be as good?

I am glad they locked him up for a ridiculously good deal if he pitches all those years.

You can't deny that its a big question mark if he pitches all those years at last year's level of quality. If there was a much lesser chance of severe injury based on the way he pitches, it would be a fantastic deal, which is probably why he signed it.

You can make this argument for basically every pitcher in baseball, every single one has a ticking time bomb in their elbows, their shoulders, everywhere basically, but that shouldn't preclude you from signing them to team-friendly extensions. Even if Sale's arm blows up, this is not the kind of deal that anchor a team's finances, it's less than $40 million guaranteed over 5 years for a pitcher with LEGITIMATE Cy Young Award winning capability. And if that isn't good enough, we have options on him for his 28- and 29-year-old seasons for a COMBINED $26 million. Such low risk, so high reward. This contract is now the envy of the entire baseball world. It's literally that good.

doublem23
03-08-2013, 10:11 AM
Margalus makes the point much more eloquently than I...

http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/3/8/4077818/chris-sales-extension-is-rick-hahns-first-chance-at-long-term-fortune

Bucky F. Dent
03-08-2013, 11:21 AM
The Sale deal pushed him to an A.

amsteel
03-08-2013, 11:31 AM
Ask me in September

Moses_Scurry
03-08-2013, 11:46 AM
I wish AJ was still on the team, but other than that, I think he's done a great job.

kevingrt
03-08-2013, 11:59 AM
Incomplete.

Need to know how the moves turn out before I can grade it.

ChicagoG19
03-08-2013, 12:32 PM
I gave Hahn a B. I think he has a done a great job given what he is working with. Had you asked me this question before the Sale extension, I probably would have given him a C.

ChicagoG19
03-08-2013, 12:34 PM
Incomplete.

Need to know how the moves turn out before I can grade it.

I always find this type of response interesting. All a GM can do is put the best team together he/she can on paper, but sometimes, players don't play to their averages and sometimes players play above their heads.

LITTLE NELL
03-08-2013, 12:55 PM
C+ for the moves made so far, really disappointed we are still missing another left handed bat in the lineup.

doublem23
03-08-2013, 12:55 PM
I always find this type of response interesting. All a GM can do is put the best team together he/she can on paper, but sometimes, players don't play to their averages and sometimes players play above their heads.

I agree, in September, we talk about how the PLAYERS performed

WhiteSox5187
03-08-2013, 12:59 PM
Right now he has a high C or a low B from me. That deal Chris Sale got was a great move but with any deal involving a pitcher there is a lot of risk involved. I am sure Cub fans would have been very pleased if they had locked up Mark Prior in 2003 too, but again the risk of injury comes with the territory. Even if Sale blows out his elbow and isn't very effective again it is still a worthwhile risk to take I think.

russ99
03-08-2013, 01:06 PM
Margalus makes the point much more eloquently than I...

http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/3/8/4077818/chris-sales-extension-is-rick-hahns-first-chance-at-long-term-fortune

True, but there's still that whole "He's skinny and throws all weird.", as Margolis put it.

Kind of odd to see a contract extension for a pitcher we already have on the roster pushing Hahn to much higher grades.

We let lots of good FAs walk, resigned a starter to a big deal who will have a surgery named after him in the future, got a hurt Keppinger who may not be able to play 3B until June, and did little else, other than expecting many players who have failed in the past to suddenly put it all together.

I know hope in spring training is infectious, but this year, I'm gonna have to see some results to assume this team will be any better than the .500 club they look like on paper.

Hitmen77
03-08-2013, 01:25 PM
Right now he has a high C or a low B from me. That deal Chris Sale got was a great move but with any deal involving a pitcher there is a lot of risk involved. I am sure Cub fans would have been very pleased if they had locked up Mark Prior in 2003 too, but again the risk of injury comes with the territory. Even if Sale blows out his elbow and isn't very effective again it is still a worthwhile risk to take I think.

I agree. The Sale extension was a good move and he was able to bring back Peavy. But I still see the Sox as about a .500 team this year.

To be fair, I don't think Hahn had too much to work with. The farm system is pretty bare, making it difficult to trade for talent. Also, I'm assuming he didn't have much payroll flexibility to work with.

StillMissOzzie
03-08-2013, 01:29 PM
No option for an "I" for Incomplete? Poll sucks.

At least let's see what HIS team does for a season to see what he failed to address. That saix I like the Sale extension.

SMO
:gulp:

34 Inch Stick
03-08-2013, 01:47 PM
conor gillaspie is going to make him look like a genius

kobo
03-08-2013, 02:03 PM
True, but there's still that whole "He's skinny and throws all weird.", as Margolis put it.

Kind of odd to see a contract extension for a pitcher we already have on the roster pushing Hahn to much higher grades.

We let lots of good FAs walk, resigned a starter to a big deal who will have a surgery named after him in the future, got a hurt Keppinger who may not be able to play 3B until June, and did little else, other than expecting many players who have failed in the past to suddenly put it all together.

I know hope in spring training is infectious, but this year, I'm gonna have to see some results to assume this team will be any better than the .500 club they look like on paper.
First, who were these lots of good FA's that we let walk besides AJ? Youk? That guy is washed up and not worth the $12 million the Yankees are paying him this year. For as good as AJ had been for the Sox I think there is more going on than we know that led to his departure. And there is no way AJ replicates his season from last year.

Second, what crystal ball are you using that has told you Sale is going to have a surgery named after him? Why are you so sure he is going to blow his arm out, because other people have said so? Other people have said he has the same motion as Randy Johnson and Johnson seemed to have a pretty good career.

And of course this team looks like a .500 club. They looked this way last year too and I think most of us on this board knew this was going to be the way the team goes until after 2014 and the big contracts come off the board. I think Hahn has done what he can considering the status of the team and the farm system. And yes, signing Sale to that extension is risky but the reward can be so great that it could go down as one of the best signings the Sox have ever made.

doublem23
03-08-2013, 02:44 PM
At least let's see what HIS team does for a season to see what he failed to address. That saix I like the Sale extension.


Then that's grading the season, not the off-season :dunce:

Foulke You
03-08-2013, 02:53 PM
We let lots of good FAs walk, resigned a starter to a big deal who will have a surgery named after him in the future, got a hurt Keppinger who may not be able to play 3B until June, and did little else, other than expecting many players who have failed in the past to suddenly put it all together.
Am I missing something here? I haven't read or heard anything that indicates Keppinger's inability to play 3B until June. Robin was on WSCR this morning and indicated Keppinger was acquired primarily to play 3B but has some flexbility to play other spots when they need him to. He made no mention of any physical limitations.

russ99
03-08-2013, 02:57 PM
First, who were these lots of good FA's that we let walk besides AJ? Youk? That guy is washed up and not worth the $12 million the Yankees are paying him this year. For as good as AJ had been for the Sox I think there is more going on than we know that led to his departure. And there is no way AJ replicates his season from last year.

Second, what crystal ball are you using that has told you Sale is going to have a surgery named after him? Why are you so sure he is going to blow his arm out, because other people have said so? Other people have said he has the same motion as Randy Johnson and Johnson seemed to have a pretty good career.

And of course this team looks like a .500 club. They looked this way last year too and I think most of us on this board knew this was going to be the way the team goes until after 2014 and the big contracts come off the board. I think Hahn has done what he can considering the status of the team and the farm system. And yes, signing Sale to that extension is risky but the reward can be so great that it could go down as one of the best signings the Sox have ever made.

Peavy, not Sale - he's the one with the innovative surgery.

slavko
03-09-2013, 01:13 AM
First, who were these lots of good FA's that we let walk besides AJ? Youk? That guy is washed up and not worth the $12 million the Yankees are paying him this year. For as good as AJ had been for the Sox I think there is more going on than we know that led to his departure. And there is no way AJ replicates his season from last year.


Not signing Youk gets him an A from me. ($12M, gasp)

ZombieRob
03-09-2013, 01:26 AM
I agree NELL, we needed a left handed stick. I'll say a c as well. I think we'll be able to pitch with most teams, but you still have to hit in this league.

StillMissOzzie
03-09-2013, 02:51 AM
Then that's grading the season, not the off-season :dunce:

Fair enough - so instead, we will discuss AJ vs Flowers based on LAST season? :dunce: back at ya!

SMO
:gulp:

johnny bench
03-09-2013, 08:13 AM
On the good side, Hahn has made solid, cautious moves and seemingly hasn't done anything to screw up the team.

On the down side, did he do anything to close the gap to the Tigers? No. Did he work any miracles to offload any bad contacts? No. Hahn didn't move any of the big rocks that need to be moved, and, there are some basic problems with the roster that are screaming to be addressed. As already been pointed out upthread, we need more left handed hitting. And a GM who fails to bring in a competent major league-proven backup catcher when making a transition to a new starting catcher is just one foul tip away from taking the blame for a lost season.

Gentlemen's D.

Golden Sox
03-09-2013, 09:34 AM
Signing Keppenger, Sale, and Peavy has certainly made it a busy off season for Hahn. I'm sure these signings will help the White Sox reach the Playoffs in 2013. There's an old saying which describes the upcoming White Sox season= The White Sox are coming, tra la, tra la.

SoxSpeed22
03-09-2013, 09:41 AM
I gave it a C, since this was one of the quieter offseasons the White Sox have had in a while. Depending on how Gillaspie and Bell do, those moves could push it up. Keppinger was one versatile player we needed last year and extending Sale will cause less headaches down the road.
Edit: Forgot about Peavy too.

DumpJerry
03-09-2013, 10:49 AM
On the good side, Hahn has made solid, cautious moves and seemingly hasn't done anything to screw up the team.

On the down side, did he do anything to close the gap to the Tigers? No. Did he work any miracles to offload any bad contacts? No. Hahn didn't move any of the big rocks that need to be moved, and, there are some basic problems with the roster that are screaming to be addressed. As already been pointed out upthread, we need more left handed hitting. And a GM who fails to bring in a competent major league-proven backup catcher when making a transition to a new starting catcher is just one foul tip away from taking the blame for a lost season.

Gentlemen's D.
Absolutely. All the players that address those needs are not only available, but their salary demands all fit the Sox' budget. Oh, how would you get rid of bad contracts? Tell another GM that he will either take over a bad contract or his brains will be on the paperwork while Brooks holds a gun to his head (too bad Luca Brasi is swimming with the fishes, he can be more convincing than Brooks)?

gobears1987
03-09-2013, 11:54 AM
You can't grade Hahn as he's really fixing a mess that was dealt to him. I think he'll do fine once he has more flexibility.

TaylorStSox
03-09-2013, 12:30 PM
Without knowing the deals that were offered, I really can't say. I like what he's done so far. Extending Sale is one of the most exciting moves the Sox have made in years. I'm really, really happy we got rid of AJ. I wish we could have added a bat, but I don't know who was really available.

DirtySox
03-09-2013, 12:30 PM
You can't grade Hahn as he's really fixing a mess that was dealt to him. I think he'll do fine once he has more flexibility.

This.

More than happy with the Sale deal though.

DSpivack
03-09-2013, 12:58 PM
Absolutely. All the players that address those needs are not only available, but their salary demands all fit the Sox' budget. Oh, how would you get rid of bad contracts? Tell another GM that he will either take over a bad contract or his brains will be on the paperwork while Brooks holds a gun to his head (too bad Luca Brasi is swimming with the fishes, he can be more convincing than Brooks)?

At least Taylor Street is not too far from the ballpark, so he should have plenty of time to pick up the cannolis beforehand.

kevingrt
03-09-2013, 12:58 PM
I always find this type of response interesting. All a GM can do is put the best team together he/she can on paper, but sometimes, players don't play to their averages and sometimes players play above their heads.

I know what you are saying but you are signing players and trading for players based on future performance not past performance. You're getting paid over a million dollars to create and develop a team that wins; it's a 24/7 job. I cannot give out a grade based on reports I see and looking at stats on players I have never seen in person (ie: Gillaspie). I'll wait to see how they perform to give out a grade.

Brewski
03-09-2013, 02:41 PM
Absolutely. All the players that address those needs are not only available, but their salary demands all fit the Sox' budget. Oh, how would you get rid of bad contracts? Tell another GM that he will either take over a bad contract or his brains will be on the paperwork while Brooks holds a gun to his head (too bad Luca Brasi is swimming with the fishes, he can be more convincing than Brooks)?

At the risk of admitting I've seen those movies too many times, ol' Luca wound up sleeping with the fishes.

shingo10
03-09-2013, 02:49 PM
You can't grade Hahn as he's really fixing a mess that was dealt to him. I think he'll do fine once he has more flexibility.


Just to be fair though, Hahn had a hand in "the mess" that was dealt to him.

tstrike2000
03-09-2013, 02:59 PM
Average, C, but hopefully higher come fall.

DumpJerry
03-09-2013, 04:08 PM
At the risk of admitting I've seen those movies too many times, ol' Luca wound up sleeping with the fishes.
My bad. Typo. It is impossible to see One and Two too many times.

sox1970
03-09-2013, 06:15 PM
I wouldn't give him a grade. I'm sure he was wanting to do more over the winter, but just didn't have the cards to do it. If anything, he probably showed more restraint than Kenny would have.

A. Cavatica
03-09-2013, 06:32 PM
He spent the money with refreshing restraint, but that doesn't make the team any better. He needs to make trades -- a lot of trades -- where the players he gets back are better than the players he deals. Winning trades is the only way to compete when your farm system sucks, your major league roster sucks, and you have your money tied up in albatross contracts.

C.

CoopaLoop
03-09-2013, 07:32 PM
There weren't any real moves to make. We will grade Hahn on how he drafts these first few years.

HomeFish
03-10-2013, 12:39 AM
I think Hahn has, thus far, done a good job of playing the terrible hand he's been dealt. I like the non-move on AJ - I think KW would have re-signed him.

shingo10
03-10-2013, 01:47 AM
I think Hahn has, thus far, done a good job of playing the terrible hand he's been dealt. I like the non-move on AJ - I think KW would have re-signed him.

I actually think Kenny was willing to let him go after 2009 and would have if not for Reinsdorf stepping in. After all he let Buehrle go who was just a big as fan favorite as AJ.

I think that you have to believe internally Hahn knew that he was taking over and had plenty of time to come up with a plan to execute this offseason. And maybe this offseason turned out as he intended but it seems a little thin to me. Especially on another bat for the lineup but as many have said what matters is how we play when the bell rings on April 1st. I'm still optimistic that with our pitching we can be a force.

doublem23
03-10-2013, 08:25 AM
Fair enough - so instead, we will discuss AJ vs Flowers based on LAST season? :dunce: back at ya!

That would be taking the short-term, win now at all costs view that KW employed the last few years that has left this team in such a weak position. Sure, I wouldn't have minded to keep AJ around if the Sox could have found a way to move him around defensively and kept everyone fresh, but they need to see what they have in Flowers. AJ's time as an everyday, productive player are closing, the Sox's budget restraints and completely barren farm system mean they probably won't have an open window to be a real force in the AL again for another 2-3 years. Keeping AJ over developing younger players during the years leading up to that window doesn't help the Sox accomplish anything when the window opens. And frankly, comparing AJ's age-35 season that will go down as clearly the best of his career against Flowers' year when he played maybe once per week is just completely idiotic logic. Using that method, you would never replace veteran players with prospects until the expensive vets broke down or retired. Smart teams let veteran players walk before they melt down. They don't make the mistake of relying on them for too long while neglecting developing replacements. That doesn't mean I think Flowers will ever develop into the player AJ was, but there's a very, very real chance that in 2014 or 2015, Flowers will be a better catcher than AJ is. But we're not going to find that out if Flowers is still riding the pine all week for the next 2 seasons.

I grade Hahn so highly because I think he's doing an excellent job of setting the Sox up for success in a few years. Peavy's new deal can expire at the same time Rios and Dunn are off the books as well, meaning they will be able to maximize the amount of free cash which hopefully coincides with an internal promotion or two from an improving farm system. Add that they will now likely be paying under retail prices on a true ace pitcher in Sale for the next 7 seasons and you have a superstar to build around when the team is ready to compete.

Are the Sox in a great position to compete with Detroit in 2013? Probably not, but again, if anyone thought Hahn could magically reshape this roster overnight, they were delusional to begin with. But do the Sox potentially look like a team that can be force by maybe 2015? That's a real possibility. I know sports fans are not the most patient bunch but with a team on the verge of going through a major cycle or roster turnover, you have to take the long view with moves that Hahn makes for probably this and next off-season. Rome wasn't built in a day. Championship caliber baseball teams usually aren't, either.

asindc
03-10-2013, 10:46 AM
That would be taking the short-term, win now at all costs view that KW employed the last few years that has left this team in such a weak position. Sure, I wouldn't have minded to keep AJ around if the Sox could have found a way to move him around defensively and kept everyone fresh, but they need to see what they have in Flowers. AJ's time as an everyday, productive player are closing, the Sox's budget restraints and completely barren farm system mean they probably won't have an open window to be a real force in the AL again for another 2-3 years. Keeping AJ over developing younger players during the years leading up to that window doesn't help the Sox accomplish anything when the window opens. And frankly, comparing AJ's age-35 season that will go down as clearly the best of his career against Flowers' year when he played maybe once per week is just completely idiotic logic. Using that method, you would never replace veteran players with prospects until the expensive vets broke down or retired. Smart teams let veteran players walk before they melt down. They don't make the mistake of relying on them for too long while neglecting developing replacements. That doesn't mean I think Flowers will ever develop into the player AJ was, but there's a very, very real chance that in 2014 or 2015, Flowers will be a better catcher than AJ is. But we're not going to find that out if Flowers is still riding the pine all week for the next 2 seasons.

I grade Hahn so highly because I think he's doing an excellent job of setting the Sox up for success in a few years. Peavy's new deal can expire at the same time Rios and Dunn are off the books as well, meaning they will be able to maximize the amount of free cash which hopefully coincides with an internal promotion or two from an improving farm system. Add that they will now likely be paying under retail prices on a true ace pitcher in Sale for the next 7 seasons and you have a superstar to build around when the team is ready to compete.

Are the Sox in a great position to compete with Detroit in 2013? Probably not, but again, if anyone thought Hahn could magically reshape this roster overnight, they were delusional to begin with. But do the Sox potentially look like a team that can be force by maybe 2015? That's a real possibility. I know sports fans are not the most patient bunch but with a team on the verge of going through a major cycle or roster turnover, you have to take the long view with moves that Hahn makes for probably this and next off-season. Rome wasn't built in a day. Championship caliber baseball teams usually aren't, either.

So what you're saying is that you don't think he deserves an F? How do you possibly explain that?!

ode to veeck
03-26-2013, 05:59 PM
I wish AJ was still on the team, but other than that, I think he's done a great job.

gonna miss AJ, one of my all time favs

#1swisher
03-27-2013, 04:06 PM
Chris Rongey
It'll be Laurence Holmes and me tonight on White Sox[/URL] Live: @670TheScore (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash) 6-8p. You'll hear from GM Rick Hahn and we'll take your calls/texts

[url]http://chicago.cbslocal.com/category/sports/

palehozenychicty
03-30-2013, 10:29 PM
He spent the money with refreshing restraint, but that doesn't make the team any better. He needs to make trades -- a lot of trades -- where the players he gets back are better than the players he deals. Winning trades is the only way to compete when your farm system sucks, your major league roster sucks, and you have your money tied up in albatross contracts.

C.

Well, he can't turn water into wine when it's dirt. :redneck

Tragg
03-31-2013, 12:05 PM
Winning trades is the only way to compete when your farm system sucks, your major league roster sucks, and you have your money tied up in albatross contracts.


I guess you could just do a lot of trades and hope you get lucky. But really the best trades occur these days when one team's surplus is another team's weakness, and they make a trade from surplus to shore up each other's weakness. That's hard to so when you have no surplus.
And the way teams crave prospects these days, you have no chance without a capable farm system.

Williams dealt Quentin, Jackson and Santos for basically one B prospect in each case in return. Maybe it was just bad execution from Williams, but B prospects can bring in some talent, if you have them.

A. Cavatica
03-31-2013, 02:40 PM
I guess you could just do a lot of trades and hope you get lucky. But really the best trades occur these days when one team's surplus is another team's weakness, and they make a trade from surplus to shore up each other's weakness. That's hard to so when you have no surplus.
And the way teams crave prospects these days, you have no chance without a capable farm system.

Williams dealt Quentin, Jackson and Santos for basically one B prospect in each case in return. Maybe it was just bad execution from Williams, but B prospects can bring in some talent, if you have them.

It's pretty clear that was bad execution from Williams. An example of the kind of trade Hahn needs to make is Morel for some other team's waning B prospect, where the scouting has identified a player who turns out to be a bit better than Morel. And then turn that guy around for someone a little better. And repeat.

Golden Sox
03-31-2013, 03:21 PM
Everybody will be calling Hahn a great GM when the White Sox make the 2013 Playoffs. Hang tight everybody, this is the year the White Sox get into the Playoffs. They'll be dancing in the streets on the Southside of Chicago when the White Sox are in the Playoffs this coming October!!!!

Mr. Jinx
03-31-2013, 04:19 PM
Everybody will be calling Hahn a great GM when the White Sox make the 2013 Playoffs. Hang tight everybody, this is the year the White Sox get into the Playoffs. They'll be dancing in the streets on the Southside of Chicago when the White Sox are in the Playoffs this coming October!!!!

I'll be dancing in the streets on the north side of Chicago, but I'm all with the rest of your idea!

blandman
03-31-2013, 05:21 PM
That would be taking the short-term, win now at all costs view that KW employed the last few years that has left this team in such a weak position. Sure, I wouldn't have minded to keep AJ around if the Sox could have found a way to move him around defensively and kept everyone fresh, but they need to see what they have in Flowers. AJ's time as an everyday, productive player are closing, the Sox's budget restraints and completely barren farm system mean they probably won't have an open window to be a real force in the AL again for another 2-3 years. Keeping AJ over developing younger players during the years leading up to that window doesn't help the Sox accomplish anything when the window opens. And frankly, comparing AJ's age-35 season that will go down as clearly the best of his career against Flowers' year when he played maybe once per week is just completely idiotic logic. Using that method, you would never replace veteran players with prospects until the expensive vets broke down or retired. Smart teams let veteran players walk before they melt down. They don't make the mistake of relying on them for too long while neglecting developing replacements. That doesn't mean I think Flowers will ever develop into the player AJ was, but there's a very, very real chance that in 2014 or 2015, Flowers will be a better catcher than AJ is. But we're not going to find that out if Flowers is still riding the pine all week for the next 2 seasons.

I grade Hahn so highly because I think he's doing an excellent job of setting the Sox up for success in a few years. Peavy's new deal can expire at the same time Rios and Dunn are off the books as well, meaning they will be able to maximize the amount of free cash which hopefully coincides with an internal promotion or two from an improving farm system. Add that they will now likely be paying under retail prices on a true ace pitcher in Sale for the next 7 seasons and you have a superstar to build around when the team is ready to compete.

Are the Sox in a great position to compete with Detroit in 2013? Probably not, but again, if anyone thought Hahn could magically reshape this roster overnight, they were delusional to begin with. But do the Sox potentially look like a team that can be force by maybe 2015? That's a real possibility. I know sports fans are not the most patient bunch but with a team on the verge of going through a major cycle or roster turnover, you have to take the long view with moves that Hahn makes for probably this and next off-season. Rome wasn't built in a day. Championship caliber baseball teams usually aren't, either.


It's really hard to predict what players an organization is gonna collect in the future, but I'm not all that high about the future. We're really really old. In 2015, yeah we'll have Dunn, Rios, and Peavy off the books, but replacing their production from within isn't exactly something our organization has been sterling at. We're currently sitting with one top 100 prospect. The top end talent, especially on offense, has got to come from somewhere. Unless Hahn is getting in a bidding war for free agents, in 2015 this team is shaping up to have some really serious issues.

wassagstdu
04-01-2013, 09:54 AM
Along about mid-season (or earlier if possible), I would trade Dunn, Rios, Peavy and Konerko with their paid-up contracts for the best prospects available. The money those players will cost is spent, the Sox are not going anywhere in 2013 or 2014, and there will be nothing to do with the freed-up money in 2015 but buy a couple of overpriced FAs, pay them for 2013 and 2014 performance, and wish we could unload them in 2016. I'd rather use the money to extend a couple of future stars in 2015.

As for putting people in the seats, I think most would rather watch good young players develop and play .500 than run out the clock on Adam Dunn and play .500.

asindc
04-01-2013, 10:11 AM
Along about mid-season (or earlier if possible), I would trade Dunn, Rios, Peavy and Konerko with their paid-up contracts for the best prospects available. The money those players will cost is spent, the Sox are not going anywhere in 2013 or 2014, and there will be nothing to do with the freed-up money in 2015 but buy a couple of overpriced FAs, pay them for 2013 and 2014 performance, and wish we could unload them in 2016. I'd rather use the money to extend a couple of future stars in 2015.

As for putting people in the seats, I think most would rather watch good young players develop and play .500 than run out the clock on Adam Dunn and play .500.

There is much less of a guarantee that good young players will play .500 than it is that established vets will play .500. It is even more likely that the established vets might break through and have a surprise season. I have no doubt that if Sox ownership and management felt secure that Sox fans would financially support the organization at or near the same levels with young players playing .450 ball as fans would with established-name vets playing .500 ball, they would start rebuilding immediately.

doublem23
04-01-2013, 10:15 AM
Along about mid-season (or earlier if possible), I would trade Dunn, Rios, Peavy and Konerko with their paid-up contracts for the best prospects available. The money those players will cost is spent, the Sox are not going anywhere in 2013 or 2014, and there will be nothing to do with the freed-up money in 2015 but buy a couple of overpriced FAs, pay them for 2013 and 2014 performance, and wish we could unload them in 2016. I'd rather use the money to extend a couple of future stars in 2015.

As for putting people in the seats, I think most would rather watch good young players develop and play .500 than run out the clock on Adam Dunn and play .500.

You think this team minus Konerko, Rios, and Peavy comes even remotely close to playing .500 baseball?