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View Full Version : White Sox Platoon Options (LEFT FIELD is very interesting)


WhiteSoxNation
02-25-2013, 03:08 PM
Getting more from a position by utilizing 2 average, low cost players and combining the two into a potential all-star, 10M/year production.


C- Flowers .269/.309/.596 v LHP, Gimenez v. RHP .283/.383/.423

LF- Viciedo- .350/.391/.642 vs LHP, .225/.271/.380 vs RHP

Starting at catcher, it's obvious Flower is the everyday catcher, but he's clearly much stronger against LHP. Gimenez should/may see more playing time than we think this year against RHP.


Viciedo had 43 hits vs LHP w/ 18 of them going for extra base hits. He also K'd just 18 times while walking 9 times as opposed to his 5:1 K/BB against RHP......People will argue that he hit 25HR, understandable. Yet, if we played Dwayne Wise vs all RHP and Viciedo vs all LHP here's the production we would have got from a 3M left field.

Adjusted for 600 ABs (and weighing the fact of more RHP than LHP) aka Wise will get more ABs

.297/.357/.511 33HR, 97RBI, 40 doubles 20SB......

What's the going rate for a .300/30/20/100 LF (see Ryan Braun)
Also gives the Sox an above average defensive LF

kittle42
02-25-2013, 03:10 PM
Is this a serious argument for platooning (1) anyone with Dayan Viciedo, and (2) Dewayne ****ing Wise, of all people?

doublem23
02-25-2013, 03:13 PM
No spank you

WhiteSoxNation
02-25-2013, 03:16 PM
Yah, clear improvement of production should be ignored :?:

TheVulture
02-25-2013, 03:21 PM
Yah, clear improvement of production should be ignored :?:

You haven't demonstrated any evidence Wise would be able to put up those kind of numbers over 110-120 starts the LH hitting half of the platoon would get. Probably would work on Playstation, though.

doublem23
02-25-2013, 03:23 PM
Yah, clear improvement of production should be ignored :?:

I hate to break it to you, but the Sox aren't going to win **** this year, so the focus should be on long-term player development. Viciedo's growth as a full-time player should not be stunted so Dewayne ****ing Wise can get on the field a little more.

You're also basing your argument for Dewayne based on 1 year of splits, a career anomaly for a 30+ year old journeyman AAAA player. Here's his career body of work vs. RHP starters:

.255/.283/.412

**** that noise.

WhiteSoxNation
02-25-2013, 03:35 PM
I hate to break it to you, but the Sox aren't going to win **** this year, so the focus should be on long-term player development. Viciedo's growth as a full-time player should not be stunted so Dewayne ****ing Wise can get on the field a little more.

You're also basing your argument for Dewayne based on 1 year of splits, a career anomaly for a 30+ year old journeyman AAAA player. Here's his career body of work vs. RHP starters:

.255/.283/.412

**** that noise.

Even using his career #s which you often use 3 most recent years in SABR but ill use your # you are still getting .291/.342/.499 LOL

I can't accept a .300 OB% player let alone 3 of them.....

amsteel
02-25-2013, 03:37 PM
File under LOLSox

SoxNation05
02-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Getting more from a position by utilizing 2 average, low cost players and combining the two into a potential all-star, 10M/year production.


C- Flowers .269/.309/.596 v LHP, Gimenez v. RHP .283/.383/.423

LF- Viciedo- .350/.391/.642 vs LHP, .225/.271/.380 vs RHP

Starting at catcher, it's obvious Flower is the everyday catcher, but he's clearly much stronger against LHP. Gimenez should/may see more playing time than we think this year against RHP.


Viciedo had 43 hits vs LHP w/ 18 of them going for extra base hits. He also K'd just 18 times while walking 9 times as opposed to his 5:1 K/BB against RHP......People will argue that he hit 25HR, understandable. Yet, if we played Dwayne Wise vs all RHP and Viciedo vs all LHP here's the production we would have got from a 3M left field.

Adjusted for 600 ABs (and weighing the fact of more RHP than LHP) aka Wise will get more ABs

.297/.357/.511 33HR, 97RBI, 40 doubles 20SB......

What's the going rate for a .300/30/20/100 LF (see Ryan Braun)
Also gives the Sox an above average defensive LF

I don't know where you are getting those numbers for Gimenez but he is a 30 year old catcher who has played what, 15 games in the Majors? Do you really expect this kind of production? If he were capable of posting a .383 OBP in the Majors wouldn't you think he would be playing consistently by now?

Domeshot17
02-25-2013, 04:05 PM
Yah, No. You don't give Wise 400 PA's so you can give Viceado 200-250.

Young guys like Tank and Flowers, they don't have a big enough sample size. If every damned player was judged solely on his rookie year, you would be missing out on a lot of really good players.

You want the Sox LF to put up Braun numbers? The answer is to have them start sticking a needle in their ass, not playing Dewayne Wise more.

doublem23
02-25-2013, 04:06 PM
You want the Sox LF to put up Braun numbers? The answer is to have them start sticking a needle in their ass, not playing Dewayne Wise more.

:yup:

Taliesinrk
02-25-2013, 04:16 PM
Yah, No. You don't give Wise 400 PA's so you can give Viceado 200-250.

Young guys like Tank and Flowers, they don't have a big enough sample size. If every damned player was judged solely on his rookie year, you would be missing out on a lot of really good players.

You want the Sox LF to put up Braun numbers? The answer is to have them start sticking a needle in their ass, not playing Dewayne Wise more.

:clap::clap::clap:

POTW

WhiteSoxNation
02-25-2013, 04:56 PM
Lets just keep playing .300 OB% guys and expecting different results.

Good thing Hahn is a SABR guy, a Beane pupil.....So eventually this team will be figure out using logic I agree with

Daver
02-25-2013, 05:20 PM
Lets just keep playing .300 OB% guys and expecting different results.

Good thing Hahn is a SABR guy, a Beane pupil.....So eventually this team will be figure out using logic I agree with

Yeah, Beane and all those World Series trophies he's won.

Taliesinrk
02-25-2013, 05:24 PM
Lets just keep playing .300 OB% guys and expecting different results.

Good thing Hahn is a SABR guy, a Beane pupil.....So eventually this team will be figure out using logic I agree with

Good thing baseball isn't played by actuaries too. If Viciedo isn't playing close to full-time, he should be in Charlotte or Birmingham... NOT Chicago. No sane manager would risk stunting his potential like that. It's a ridiculous notion.

pythons007
02-25-2013, 05:31 PM
I don't think billy beane would do that. Yeesh!

Lip Man 1
02-25-2013, 05:40 PM
As usual Daver hits the nail on the head!

Lip

SoxNation05
02-25-2013, 05:50 PM
I don't know what's more disturbing; the notion that you would prefer Viciedo getting 20-40% of the LF at bats or the fact that you found the idea of Wise starting in LF so compelling that within your thread title you included "(LEFT FIELD is very interesting)."

WhiteSoxNation
02-25-2013, 06:12 PM
Yeah, Beane and all those World Series trophies he's won.

Yeah, Kenny was a genius.......

Look, having Viciedo put up .300/.370/.550 vs Lefties and seeing consistent success wouldn't that only help him?

Instead of 5:1 K/BB against righties and being next to hurtful in the line up vs RHP

russ99
02-25-2013, 06:15 PM
Young guys like Tank and Flowers, they don't have a big enough sample size. If every damned player was judged solely on his rookie year, you would be missing out on a lot of really good players.


Flowers, yes. But Viciedo has given us a pretty large sample size, only 289 AB shy of that mythical 1000 where you are supposed to know what you have with a hitter.

But Wise getting more playing time than he will as our primary bench OF, heck no.

Viciedo full time isn't optimal, but considering the current roster, he should be out there pretty much every day this year if only to confirm what we have or don't have in him before his Boras-driven salary becomes prohibitive.

blandman
02-25-2013, 06:22 PM
A much better idea is to platoon DH between Dunn and Viciedo, and then go out and get a LF that can hit pitchers from either side.

kittle42
02-25-2013, 06:27 PM
I think OP's worst idea in years has been toasted enough here.

Daver
02-25-2013, 09:10 PM
Yeah, Kenny was a genius.......

Look, having Viciedo put up .300/.370/.550 vs Lefties and seeing consistent success wouldn't that only help him?

Instead of 5:1 K/BB against righties and being next to hurtful in the line up vs RHP


Kenny won a World Series.

Have the A's under Beane even won a playoff series?

MISoxfan
02-25-2013, 10:39 PM
Jim Thome was 23 in 1994. At the end of the season he had 796 PA. That season he hit .167/.247/.298 in 94 PA against LHP. I suppose he should have been put into a platoon for the rest of his career, too?

He hit .275/.380/.422 against them in '95.

MISoxfan
02-25-2013, 10:47 PM
Lets just keep playing .300 OB% guys and expecting different results.

Good thing Hahn is a SABR guy, a Beane pupil.....So eventually this team will be figure out using logic I agree with

You are advocating that we give the majority of the starts in LF to Dewayne Wise. The guy with a career OBP of .264. This is a guy with a .269 OBP against righties with around 1000 ABs against them. You are basing this entirely on a hot streak that carried his OBP to above .300 in one split for probably the first time in his entire career. You think this is a thing a "SABR guy" would do?

DumpJerry
02-25-2013, 11:17 PM
kenny won a world series.

Have the a's under beane even won a playoff series?
2006 alds.

Brian26
02-25-2013, 11:19 PM
Kenny won a World Series.

Have the A's under Beane even won a playoff series?

Yeah, but Kenny didn't have a major motion picture about him with Brad Pitt playing his role. :redneck

Brian26
02-25-2013, 11:19 PM
2006 alds.

Only because they had Big Frank.

Wedema
02-25-2013, 11:33 PM
Yeah, but Kenny didn't have a major motion picture about him with Brad Pitt playing his role. :redneck


Brad Pitt would have a little trouble pulling that one off. How about Denzel Washington?

russ99
02-26-2013, 09:11 AM
Jim Thome was 23 in 1994. At the end of the season he had 796 PA. That season he hit .167/.247/.298 in 94 PA against LHP. I suppose he should have been put into a platoon for the rest of his career, too?

He hit .275/.380/.422 against them in '95.

Let's not start this argument again. There's no telling what Viciedo will do this year. As a realist, I'm expecting a slight improvement.

My only real concern is if Hahn is penciling such a flawed and increasingly expensive hitter into the 1B/cleanup spot after Paulie leaves, as that would be a huge step down.

Much more concerned about going into the season with 2 rookie catchers than anything Viciedo does at this stage of his career.

blandman
02-26-2013, 12:31 PM
Let's not start this argument again. There's no telling what Viciedo will do this year. As a realist, I'm expecting a slight improvement.

My only real concern is if Hahn is penciling such a flawed and increasingly expensive hitter into the 1B/cleanup spot after Paulie leaves, as that would be a huge step down.

Much more concerned about going into the season with 2 rookie catchers than anything Viciedo does at this stage of his career.

As a realist, I'm expecting a player with his approach to show regression. :shrug:

You can't say "let's not start this argument again" and then say something that you know a lot of people vehemently disagree with. :rolleyes:

TheOldRoman
02-26-2013, 12:56 PM
As a realist, I'm expecting a player with his approach to show regression. :shrug:

You can't say "let's not start this argument again" and then say something that you know a lot of people vehemently disagree with. :rolleyes:
Munch. You are not a realist in any sense of the word. You are a sensationalist at very best. You have a well displayed agenda against the White Sox and really want people to believe that literally everything will go wrong with them. You pushed your agenda to the point of making up quotes to support your "fact" that Danks would miss at least one month, hours after you were proven wrong when you said he hadn't even thrown yet.

And no, even for the people who are not high on Viciedo, there is not "a lot" of people who vehemently disagree with the premise that he will have at least a slight improvement. Calling for a regression for a 23 year old after his first full big league season might be a new low for you.

MISoxfan
02-26-2013, 04:13 PM
Let's not start this argument again. There's no telling what Viciedo will do this year. As a realist, I'm expecting a slight improvement.

My only real concern is if Hahn is penciling such a flawed and increasingly expensive hitter into the 1B/cleanup spot after Paulie leaves, as that would be a huge step down.

Much more concerned about going into the season with 2 rookie catchers than anything Viciedo does at this stage of his career.

I'm not saying Viciedo is the next Jim Thome. I imagine he will hit righties better next year, but he also won't hit .350/.391/.642 off of lefties again.

Bobby Thigpen
02-26-2013, 04:28 PM
This whole thread reminds me of the heady days when people were advocating trading Paulie so they could let Ross Gload or Brian Daubach play first base.

DSpivack
02-26-2013, 05:03 PM
This whole thread reminds me of the heady days when people were advocating trading Paulie so they could let Ross Gload or Brian Daubach play first base.
GIDPK! :redneck

Mr. Jinx
02-26-2013, 05:13 PM
I find RIGHT FIELD much more interesting than LEFT FIELD. Right has a bar while left only has the Fundamentals desk. Beer over other people's children any day.

sullythered
02-26-2013, 05:54 PM
We are officially at the point in the calender year when WSI loses it's damn mind until the season starts.

Tragg
02-26-2013, 06:36 PM
Yet, if we played Dwayne Wise vs all RHP and Viciedo vs all LHP here's the production we would have got from a 3M left field.
You'll probably get your wish. And even better, Wise will lead-off when he plays. You can't just sit a player who had a .295 obp in a career year.

Bobby Thigpen
02-26-2013, 06:50 PM
We are officially at the point in the calender year when WSI loses it's damn mind until the season starts.
You're being overly optimistic.