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View Full Version : Michael Bourn to the Indians per Jon Heyman and Ken Rosenthal


WhiteSox5187
02-11-2013, 08:29 PM
Jon Heyman and Ken Rosenthal on Twitter report that the Indians and Michael Bourn agree to a four year $48 million with a vesting option for $12 million for a fifth if he gets 550 plate appearances in the last year.

blandman
02-11-2013, 08:43 PM
Jon Heyman and Ken Rosenthal on Twitter report that the Indians and Michael Bourn agree to a four year $48 million with a vesting option for $12 million for a fifth if he gets 550 plate appearances in the last year.

Not that I think the Indians are better than us (they're not), anything that makes a division opponent harder makes that wild card option less and less likely.

We could have REALLY used him. The contract is downright robbery.

Domeshot17
02-11-2013, 08:52 PM
Not that I think the Indians are better than us (they're not), anything that makes a division opponent harder makes that wild card option less and less likely.

We could have REALLY used him. The contract is downright robbery.

I dont know, I like Bourn, but I dont think hes worth 12 mil per. I mean, thats about what Rios makes and Rios > Bourn. He will make the Indians better.

blandman
02-11-2013, 08:58 PM
I dont know, I like Bourn, but I dont think hes worth 12 mil per. I mean, thats about what Rios makes and Rios > Bourn. He will make the Indians better.

I don't think Rios is better than Bourne. Rios had some better seasons, but he's inconsistent. And Bourn's a different player. One of the best leadoff guys in the game, and a defensive wizard in center.

I'd probably rather have Bourn. But having one and not the other isn't what I meant either. I'd love to have Bourn in center and Rios in right with a platoon in left. That's an outfield that would have went a long way to helping us compete. I'm not sure there's a guy out there now that'll realistically put us in the equation.

Domeshot17
02-11-2013, 09:02 PM
I don't think Rios is better than Bourne. Rios had some better seasons, but he's inconsistent. And Bourn's a different player. One of the best leadoff guys in the game, and a defensive wizard in center.

I'd probably rather have Bourn. But having one and not the other isn't what I meant either. I'd love to have Bourn in center and Rios in right with a platoon in left. That's an outfield that would have went a long way to helping us compete. I'm not sure there's a guy out there now that'll realistically put us in the equation.

I think we can compete, but its the same formula we always have. Last year we built a 75 win team and it maxed out and won 84 games, I dont think that team could possibly have won 88, they far over achieved. Now we are starting with a base team that would win 82-85 games, so winning 90 is unlikely but possible. IF we do that and something happens in Detroit, we could compete.

kittle42
02-11-2013, 10:04 PM
You guys would want another guy in the lineup striking out 140+ times a season? We'd never hear the end of it.

Noneck
02-12-2013, 12:13 AM
I wonder if the Sox are even dealing with boras.

blandman
02-12-2013, 12:26 AM
You guys would want another guy in the lineup striking out 140+ times a season? We'd never hear the end of it.

Who cares if he's leading off and hitting over .300?

mzh
02-12-2013, 12:34 AM
Who cares if he's leading off and hitting over .300?
Yes. And stealing 60 bases and playing GG center field.

Strikeouts aren't bad if you can compensate by being competent at more than one facet of the game.

Lip Man 1
02-12-2013, 12:51 AM
Noneck:

History shows they try not to unless absolutely necessary.

Lip

ComiskeyBrewer
02-12-2013, 02:51 AM
Yes. And stealing 60 bases and playing GG center field.

Strikeouts aren't bad if you can compensate by being competent at more than one facet of the game.

The thing is, he only stole 42 bases last year(a drop off of almost 20 from the previous year) and was caught 13 times. Now, is that an abberation, or has he lost a step? That is something we will find out this season. 12 million is a lot for a .730 OPS with no power and good, but not great base stealing ability. If he returns to his previous numbers of 50-60 SB, it seems like an OK deal to me.

102605
02-12-2013, 08:11 AM
I think the Indians are a sleeper AL Central team. I would not be surprised if they beat the White Sox for 2nd place..

blandman
02-12-2013, 08:23 AM
I think we can compete, but its the same formula we always have. Last year we built a 75 win team and it maxed out and won 84 games, I dont think that team could possibly have won 88, they far over achieved. Now we are starting with a base team that would win 82-85 games, so winning 90 is unlikely but possible. IF we do that and something happens in Detroit, we could compete.

I don't share your opinion that the base of this team is that good, if for no other reason than games within our division are going to be a lot harder to win this year.

blandman
02-12-2013, 08:24 AM
I think the Indians are a sleeper AL Central team. I would not be surprised if they beat the White Sox for 2nd place..

They don't have the pitching. They've made a few curious signings (Bourn, Swisher) that you'd expect a contending team only to make. They must share your opinion.

blandman
02-12-2013, 08:26 AM
The thing is, he only stole 42 bases last year(a drop off of almost 20 from the previous year) and was caught 13 times. Now, is that an abberation, or has he lost a step? That is something we will find out this season. 12 million is a lot for a .730 OPS with no power and good, but not great base stealing ability. If he returns to his previous numbers of 50-60 SB, it seems like an OK deal to me.

He could steal 30 bases a year for the duration of that contract and as long as he still hits over .300 he's worth it. $12 million is not a lot for a leadoff guy. There's so few good ones right now.

doublem23
02-12-2013, 08:26 AM
I think the Indians are a sleeper AL Central team. I would not be surprised if they beat the White Sox for 2nd place..

Right now I think Detroit is destined for October and Minnesota for the cellar, but the other three could finish in any order and I would not be surprised.

blandman
02-12-2013, 08:33 AM
Right now I think Detroit is destined for October and Minnesota for the cellar, but the other three could finish in any order and I would not be surprised.

A lot would have to go really wrong for us and KC. Cleveland certainly improved, but they're relying on Trevor Bauer to already be the ace of that rotation. And Brett Myers is probably the next best guy. They could just as easily fight for the Twins in the cellar (and I say this also because Minnesota's got some good young players they're working in this year, like they always do).

blandman
02-12-2013, 08:35 AM
I wonder if the Sox are even dealing with boras.

If he's doing 4/$48 for elite leadoff guys, they should start.

ohiosoxfan
02-12-2013, 09:22 AM
He could steal 30 bases a year for the duration of that contract and as long as he still hits over .300 he's worth it. $12 million is not a lot for a leadoff guy. There's so few good ones right now.

Why are people talking about a guy hitting over .300 who has hit OVER .300 (.303) exactly ONCE in his seven-year career and carries a .272 career average. The same guy has turned 30 so the odds of him getting 20 MORE steals this year over last is probably slim. . if you compare apples to apples, his numbers aren't a heck of a lot better than DeAza's were last year (I will admit he's a better CF, though is he $11 million a year better????)

johnnyg83
02-12-2013, 09:25 AM
Why are people talking about a guy hitting over .300 who has hit OVER .300 (.303) exactly ONCE in his seven-year career and carries a .272 career average. The same guy has turned 30 so the odds of him getting 20 MORE steals this year over last is probably slim. . if you compare apples to apples, his numbers aren't a heck of a lot better than DeAza's were last year (I will admit he's a better CF, though is he $11 million a year better????)

Not to be Capt. Obvious, but De Aza hasn't been on the open market yet. I don't think he'd get 12 a year, but he'd get a substantial raise.

ohiosoxfan
02-12-2013, 09:30 AM
To be honest, I think he needs to put a couple of full time solid seasons together to get a substantial raise. I just think people may be overvaluing the addition of Bourn. . . I think that was apparent by the LACK of interest in signing him to a $75 million deal like he and Boras were seeking. There are a lot of teams that seemingly could have used a player like him who seemed to be less than enthusiastic about opening the checkbook - i.e. Texas, Phillies, etc. The draft pick may have been a stumbling block, but Texas needed to make a move and didn't seem all that interested in him.

blandman
02-12-2013, 09:42 AM
Why are people talking about a guy hitting over .300 who has hit OVER .300 (.303) exactly ONCE in his seven-year career and carries a .272 career average. The same guy has turned 30 so the odds of him getting 20 MORE steals this year over last is probably slim. . if you compare apples to apples, his numbers aren't a heck of a lot better than DeAza's were last year (I will admit he's a better CF, though is he $11 million a year better????)

Not to be Capt. Obvious, but De Aza hasn't been on the open market yet. I don't think he'd get 12 a year, but he'd get a substantial raise.

Good point Johnny. I don't understand why people are comparing him to people we have that are also decent. We're not replacing them, we simply need more talent on the roster. Bourn has some elite skills, something we are sorely missing (and not only for this year). An outfield of Bourn in center surrounded by Rios and De Aza could have been the best in the AL defensively, and one of the better offensive ones in baseball.

ohiosoxfan
02-12-2013, 09:58 AM
Good point Johnny. I don't understand why people are comparing him to people we have that are also decent. We're not replacing them, we simply need more talent on the roster. Bourn has some elite skills, something we are sorely missing (and not only for this year). An outfield of Bourn in center surrounded by Rios and De Aza could have been the best in the AL defensively, and one of the better offensive ones in baseball.

My point wasn't to strictly make a comparison to our guy. I'm just pointing out that this guy is a decent player, but he's not guaranteed to make Cleveland a World Series champion. . . sure he could have helped us, but I don't think we have room for another $12 million player (unless we would move Floyd, Dunn, etc.) Plus, if we had signed him, we lose a first round pick (it could be debated whether that would really hurt us or not based on our draft history -but we did pick Sale in the first round)

I guess what fired me up was the comments assuming he's going to hit over .300 for Cleveland leading off when he has only done that once and just barely. He also strikes out a lot- his obp is similar to our inexpensive CF/leadoff man.

cws05champ
02-12-2013, 10:26 AM
Compare these guys below, both in their age 29 season:

Player A .290/.351/.349 0 HR, 59 SB, 80 R, 25 RBI
Player B .274/.348/.391 9 HR, 42 SB, 96 R, 57 RBI

Player B is obviously Bourn last year, a year in which he had more HR than in the previous 5 years combined. And no doubt that if all things equal Bourn is the better player here.

Player A is Scott Podsednick in 2005. Would anyone give anything close to $12M per to Pods?

mahagga73
02-12-2013, 11:17 AM
I think the Indians are a sleeper AL Central team. I would not be surprised if they beat the White Sox for 2nd place..
The only thing that would surprise me is if the Tigers don't win the division. I think the Sox could win as many games as last year and finish 3rd in the standings possibly.

kittle42
02-12-2013, 11:36 AM
Who cares if he's leading off and hitting over .300?

He hit .300? I must have missed that year.

Don't get me wrong, I would love Bourn on the Sox. Just pointing out what I feel the inevitable arguments would be here.

kittle42
02-12-2013, 11:38 AM
Why are people talking about a guy hitting over .300 who has hit OVER .300 (.303) exactly ONCE in his seven-year career and carries a .272 career average.

Actually, he never hit over .300. That .303 was only part of 2011. He ended at .294.

asindc
02-12-2013, 11:47 AM
I think the Indians are a sleeper AL Central team. I would not be surprised if they beat the White Sox for 2nd place..

Nah. They replaced Choo with Swisher and Sizemore with Bourn. This just puts them in a better position to compete with the Sox.

ohiosoxfan
02-12-2013, 11:48 AM
Actually, he never hit over .300. That .303 was only part of 2011. He ended at .294.

You're right -sorry I missed that-thanks for catching that.

kittle42
02-12-2013, 12:51 PM
You're right -sorry I missed that-thanks for catching that.

Easy to do that when just scanning the brick of career stats - I often miss those split seasons.

blandman
02-12-2013, 12:58 PM
My point wasn't to strictly make a comparison to our guy. I'm just pointing out that this guy is a decent player, but he's not guaranteed to make Cleveland a World Series champion. . . sure he could have helped us, but I don't think we have room for another $12 million player (unless we would move Floyd, Dunn, etc.) Plus, if we had signed him, we lose a first round pick (it could be debated whether that would really hurt us or not based on our draft history -but we did pick Sale in the first round)

I guess what fired me up was the comments assuming he's going to hit over .300 for Cleveland leading off when he has only done that once and just barely. He also strikes out a lot- his obp is similar to our inexpensive CF/leadoff man.

Well, he's really not $12 million this year, he's only $7 with money deferred. So we wouldn't really HAVE to move anyone, and then you can slot that money to replace Konerko's at the end of the year.

I mean, there's no point in discussing that now, because it's done. But it's certainly something that would have really helped this club at a reasonable value.

ohiosoxfan
02-12-2013, 01:37 PM
Well, he's really not $12 million this year, he's only $7 with money deferred. So we wouldn't really HAVE to move anyone, and then you can slot that money to replace Konerko's at the end of the year.

I mean, there's no point in discussing that now, because it's done. But it's certainly something that would have really helped this club at a reasonable value.

Agreed. . . though it would have come with the loss of a first round pick which I think the Sox feel is pretty valuable these days if they want to rebuild (or strengthen) the system.

doublem23
02-12-2013, 01:57 PM
Nah. They replaced Choo with Swisher and Sizemore with Bourn. This just puts them in a better position to compete with the Sox.

:cool:

They're going to score a lot of runs but their pitching is just brutal. Shades of the Late 90's and Early 00's Sox.

Foulke You
02-12-2013, 02:44 PM
I think the Indians are a sleeper AL Central team. I would not be surprised if they beat the White Sox for 2nd place..
I think both the White Sox and Royals have better pitching than the Tribe. Ubaldo Jimenez, Justin Masterson, Bauer, Brett Myers, and Zack McCallister is the Indians rotation. There really isn't a true #1 in that rotation or even a #2 for that matter. Ubaldo has regressed mightily since his Rockies days and is not really an ace anymore. I don't see their "big 3" hanging with Verlander/Scherzer/Sanchez or Sale/Peavy/Danks or even Shields/Santana/Guthrie.

Also, as a previous poster pointed out, Swisher and Bourn are going to replace the lost production from the recently departed Choo, Sizemore, and Hafner. Will the Tribe be improved in 2013? Probably. However, I still have them penciled in at fourth place.

PaleHoser
02-12-2013, 09:52 PM
Speed guy with no power on the wrong side of 30 for 4/$48M? I'd pass.

ComiskeyBrewer
02-13-2013, 01:31 AM
He could steal 30 bases a year for the duration of that contract and as long as he still hits over .300 he's worth it. $12 million is not a lot for a leadoff guy. There's so few good ones right now.

He'd also be worth it if he hit 30 HRs and had an OPS over .900, neither of which will happen though. As others have pointed out, he's on the wrong side of 30, he has never hit for over .300, has no power at all and his SB numbers dropped off precipitously last year. 12 Million isn't bad for a leadoff guy with power, but for one who is basically a singles hitter? It's not exactly a good contract.

kittle42
02-13-2013, 09:59 AM
He'd also be worth it if he hit 30 HRs and had an OPS over .900, neither of which will happen though. As others have pointed out, he's on the wrong side of 30, he has never hit for over .300, has no power at all and his SB numbers dropped off precipitously last year. 12 Million isn't bad for a leadoff guy with power, but for one who is basically a singles hitter? It's not exactly a good contract.

He led the league in CS and basically had a crap SB%. I'd still take him, but he's really not all that great.

PorkChopExpress
02-13-2013, 11:09 AM
Well, he's really not $12 million this year, he's only $7 with money deferred. So we wouldn't really HAVE to move anyone, and then you can slot that money to replace Konerko's at the end of the year.

I mean, there's no point in discussing that now, because it's done. But it's certainly something that would have really helped this club at a reasonable value.

And then two and three years from now his contract is an albatross that is preventing the Sox from spending on the top FA's at that time. I'd rather have Konerko's salary at the end of this year to use this offseason instead off already promising it to someone who, frankly, I just don't see as that much of an impact player, and particularly for the Sox. Don't forget, we play half our games at the Cell, and power is part of our game. Yes, a balanced lineup is crucial, but we are down to Dunn, Konerko and Viciedo as potential 30+ HR guys, with Konerko showing less pop these days, and you want to platoon Viciedo in order to play a speedy, low-power OF. I don't think Bourn would have been a good fit here, and especially not at the kind of money he got.

blandman
02-13-2013, 11:31 AM
And then two and three years from now his contract is an albatross that is preventing the Sox from spending on the top FA's at that time. I'd rather have Konerko's salary at the end of this year to use this offseason instead off already promising it to someone who, frankly, I just don't see as that much of an impact player, and particularly for the Sox. Don't forget, we play half our games at the Cell, and power is part of our game. Yes, a balanced lineup is crucial, but we are down to Dunn, Konerko and Viciedo as potential 30+ HR guys, with Konerko showing less pop these days, and you want to platoon Viciedo in order to play a speedy, low-power OF. I don't think Bourn would have been a good fit here, and especially not at the kind of money he got.

Fair. But I'm not sure this isn't our last chance to compete for a while. I'd rather have Bourn now.

Tragg
02-14-2013, 07:40 PM
He could steal 30 bases a year for the duration of that contract and as long as he still hits over .300 he's worth it. $12 million is not a lot for a leadoff guy. There's so few good ones right now.

Well, we have a leadoff hitter who costs $2 mill a year, has and OPS just below Bourne and 1/3 fewer steals. That's a bargain.

SCCWS
02-15-2013, 10:03 AM
I think another consideration on the Indians is the addition of Terry Francona. Obviously he had some good years in Boston. But he was managing talented teams that he had to keep somewhat sane. Crazy personalities but very talented rosters. In Cleveland, he is going to have to manage games. With less talented lineups in Philly before he came to Boston, his teams struggled.

blandman
02-15-2013, 10:32 AM
Well, we have a leadoff hitter who costs $2 mill a year, has and OPS just below Bourne and 1/3 fewer steals. That's a bargain.

They're not mutually exclusive! Having both guys would be a competitive edge. Something we don't have at any position, other than days Sale is pitching.

doublem23
02-15-2013, 10:51 AM
They're not mutually exclusive! Having both guys would be a competitive edge. Something we don't have at any position, other than days Sale is pitching.

You can argue this point all you'd like but it seems that the Sox, who are already burdened by bad contracts, would rather not tie $50 into a slowing speedster whose on the wrong side of the 30 and would rather let their cheaper, 23-year-old LF continue to play everyday and see what kind of player he becomes.

blandman
02-15-2013, 11:24 AM
You can argue this point all you'd like but it seems that the Sox, who are already burdened by bad contracts, would rather not tie $50 into a slowing speedster whose on the wrong side of the 30 and would rather let their cheaper, 23-year-old LF continue to play everyday and see what kind of player he becomes.

Yeah, I get that. Just think they're wrong. For this year and beyond. But it is cheaper.

Tragg
02-15-2013, 10:05 PM
They're not mutually exclusive! Having both guys would be a competitive edge. Something we don't have at any position, other than days Sale is pitching.

I would have been okay signing him. Viciedo would have still had plenty of playing time, being able to take a few OF starts a week and some DH. Plus it would have strengthened our bench, which, going into spring training, has nothing close to a major league bat.