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View Full Version : Viciedo, Flowers and Beckham will be better hitters in 2013


DumpJerry
02-08-2013, 10:21 PM
So says Jeff Manto (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/18080758-419/white-sox-think-leg-kick-might-help-dayan-viciedo-at-the-plate.html).

The leg kick sounds like Viciedo will resemble Big Hurt.

blandman
02-08-2013, 10:25 PM
I like the optimism, but if Manto is really serious about fixing Viciedo he needs to spend more than a year down in the minors starting from scratch. His entire approach is one huge flaw. 4 to 1 k to bb ratio :o:

mzh
02-08-2013, 11:00 PM
I like the optimism, but if Manto is really serious about fixing Viciedo he needs to spend more than a year down in the minors starting from scratch. His entire approach is one huge flaw. 4 to 1 k to bb ratio :o:
They could do that, or they could, you know, let the professional hitting coach attempt to do his job.

blandman
02-08-2013, 11:28 PM
They could do that, or they could, you know, let the professional hitting coach attempt to do his job.

So are you ready to write of the season entirely? Or are we going to rework work swings entirely at the big league level like rebuilding teams do?

DonnieDarko
02-08-2013, 11:30 PM
So are you ready to write of the season entirely? Or are we going to rework work swings entirely at the big league level like rebuilding teams do?

I don't think that it's an entire rebuild of his swing that's needed. Just his approach.

doublem23
02-08-2013, 11:31 PM
So are you ready to write of the season entirely? Or are we going to rework work swings entirely at the big league level like rebuilding teams do?

Oh, god adding a simple timing mechanism is not a complete swing rebuild.

CoopaLoop
02-08-2013, 11:32 PM
Nobody gets off the Island by walking.

blandman
02-08-2013, 11:40 PM
I don't think that it's an entire rebuild of his swing that's needed. Just his approach.

Oh, god adding a simple timing mechanism is not a complete swing rebuild.

So...failure then? I mean, he swings like Vlad Guerrero, only without the contact ability even in the zone, let alone outside it. Is kicking his leg gonna make him Vlad, or are we serious about making him a ballplayer?

DSpivack
02-08-2013, 11:41 PM
So...failure then? I mean, he swings like Vlad Guerrero, only without the contact ability even in the zone, let alone outside it. Is kicking his leg gonna make him Vlad, or are we serious about making him a ballplayer?

I'll let his actual work speak for itself. Thus, I make no certain statements or unfounded predictions as to Viciedo's 2013 season until he actually plays it.

Lip Man 1
02-08-2013, 11:42 PM
Assuming the Sox don't make any more moves, the three hitters listed at the start of this thread damn well better be better hitters this season.

Lip

doublem23
02-08-2013, 11:47 PM
So...failure then? I mean, he swings like Vlad Guerrero, only without the contact ability even in the zone, let alone outside it. Is kicking his leg gonna make him Vlad, or are we serious about making him a ballplayer?

Typical :rolleyes:

blandman
02-09-2013, 12:13 AM
I'll let his actual work speak for itself. Thus, I make no certain statements or unfounded predictions as to Viciedo's 2013 season until he actually plays it.

Why discuss things on a message board then?

Noneck
02-09-2013, 12:23 AM
Assuming the Sox don't make any more moves, the three hitters listed at the start of this thread damn well better be better hitters this season.

Lip


Lip, We all know that and so do the Sox, thats why this stuff is coming out. They have to realize these 3 have to come through but the others cant slack off either. Everything has to click, not much room for error.

blandman
02-09-2013, 12:33 AM
Typical :rolleyes:

At least I'm consistent? :shrug:

I look at Viciedo's approach and I honestly don't see any way other than star ability that it's going to work at the major league level. So unless he suddenly starts possessing elite contact skills, he isn't going to improve much by just kicking his damn leg. It isn't timing. Dude's biggest problem is he doesn't know where the ball is.

sullythered
02-09-2013, 01:02 AM
At least I'm consistent? :shrug:

I look at Viciedo's approach and I honestly don't see any way other than star ability that it's going to work at the major league level. So unless he suddenly starts possessing elite contact skills, he isn't going to improve much by just kicking his damn leg. It isn't timing. Dude's biggest problem is he doesn't know where the ball is.

Making contact is not his problem, at all. He is a .263 major league hitter, and hit .283 through the minors. He struck out a little too much last year, but he was nowhere near the league leaders. He makes a ton of contact, he just doesn't walk enough. His problem is patience, and a timing mechanism could help him with that.

Frater Perdurabo
02-09-2013, 07:43 AM
Typical :rolleyes:

It's a Munch world, and we're just living in it.

DumpJerry
02-09-2013, 08:29 AM
I'll let his actual work speak for itself. Thus, I make no certain statements or unfounded predictions as to Viciedo's 2013 season until he actually plays it.
Come on. This post is just way beyond outrageous. You know how we hate surprises and want all the answers for the upcoming season by Valentine's Day.

tstrike2000
02-09-2013, 08:45 AM
They'll have to be better. I'm sure the pitching will be good, but right now this is the offense of a third place team.

blandman
02-09-2013, 09:18 AM
Making contact is not his problem, at all. He is a .263 major league hitter, and hit .283 through the minors. He struck out a little too much last year, but he was nowhere near the league leaders. He makes a ton of contact, he just doesn't walk enough. His problem is patience, and a timing mechanism could help him with that.

Batting average is a poor evaluation tool when it comes to making contact. That doesn't tell you at all how good he was at making contact. The dude struck out in more than 20% of his at bats. He's Adam Dunn, except he doesn't walk at all (4:1 k:bb ratio, whereas Adam walks a ton) and he doesn't have as much power either.

RKMeibalane
02-09-2013, 09:18 AM
Why discuss things on a message board then?

Discussion entails making thoughtful observations, not spewing out predictions of certain doom.

RKMeibalane
02-09-2013, 09:19 AM
Batting average is a poor evaluation tool when it comes to making contact. That doesn't tell you at all how good he was at making contact. The dude struck out in more than 20% of his at bats. He's Adam Dunn, except he doesn't walk at all (4:1 k:bb ratio, whereas Adam walks a ton) and he doesn't have as much power either.

If Viciedo can improve his contact frequency, it's likely that he will provide more power. His ability to drive the ball is not something that most of us worry about.

blandman
02-09-2013, 09:21 AM
Discussion entails making thoughtful observations, not spewing out predictions of certain doom.

Discussion involves opinions and ideas. What you said brought nothing to the discussion, and seemed to knock those willing to have one.

blandman
02-09-2013, 09:23 AM
If Viciedo can improve his contact frequency, it's likely that he will provide more power. His ability to drive the ball is not something that most of us worry about.

He's a guess hitter who swings at full speed to produce that power though. I'm not sure what good this is going to do. He needs a complete rework if he's going to do both of those things. He's still young enough to survive it.

October26
02-09-2013, 10:23 AM
Nobody gets off the Island by walking.

There are some really funny posts in this thread but yours really made me laugh :rolling: Thank you!

I read the Jeff Manto article that DumpJerry posted to open up this thread and I love Manto's optimism. I know I am a bit biased (or blind) when it comes to Viciedo. But it is February, so I am going to dream. I am hoping for a big year from Viciedo this year (30 homers, 90 rbi).

:bandance: GO SOX & GO VICIEDO!! :bandance:

PS - Also hoping for good things from Flowers (I miss AJ) and Beckham in 2013. If it helps the Sox win more games, then it's all good.

Tragg
02-09-2013, 10:44 AM
Good to hear that the coach has some ideas to help them.

SI1020
02-09-2013, 12:35 PM
The first time I saw Dayan Viciedo play when he was in the minors with Birmingham, he looked so rough and unpolished. Now that he has one complete season in MLB the term "diamond in the rough" comes to mind. I don't think Viciedo can be another Frank Thomas, but I believe in my heart of hearts that he can be a passable rendition of Carlos Lee. I'm just not completely confident that he will be. So far I like Manto, and hope that his work with Viciedo will pay off.

JB98
02-09-2013, 01:07 PM
Assuming the Sox don't make any more moves, the three hitters listed at the start of this thread damn well better be better hitters this season.

Agreed. No question about it. The Sox cannot count on 37-year-old Paul Konerko to be the centerpiece of their lineup forever. At some point, some of these younger players need to make strides. Preferably, that time is now since the team has enough pitching to compete for a playoff spot.

As for the Viciedo discussion, the idea of sending him back to the minors to rebuild his swing is complete nonsense to me. He needs minor tweaks, not a major overhaul. And you don't learn to hit big-league pitching at AAA. There were some positives last year. Let's see if he can build on it.

TheVulture
02-09-2013, 01:20 PM
I like the optimism, but if Manto is really serious about fixing Viciedo he needs to spend more than a year down in the minors starting from scratch. His entire approach is one huge flaw. 4 to 1 k to bb ratio :o:

He had as good or better season at the plate than Rios had 2 of the last 4 years. Walked more than Rios the last did the last two years as well.

TheVulture
02-09-2013, 01:23 PM
So...failure then? I mean, he swings like Vlad Guerrero, only without the contact ability even in the zone, let alone outside it. Is kicking his leg gonna make him Vlad, or are we serious about making him a ballplayer?

If every hitter is expected to be Vlad, 99% of hitters don't belong in the majors.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 03:33 PM
If Munch thinks he needs a complete overhaul of his swing, that's a good sign. Viciedo will probably hit .290/35/110 going off of Munch's predictions.

DumpJerry
02-10-2013, 04:01 PM
If Munch thinks he needs a complete overhaul of his swing, that's a good sign. Viciedo will probably hit .290/35/110 going off of Munch's predictions.
You could be onto something. Look at how Derrick Rose responded to Munch's motivation.

SoxSpeed22
02-10-2013, 04:02 PM
I am hopeful for Flowers this year, since he never really got his timing down when he was playing off the bench, Manto discussed that Flowers did better when he played a few games in a row. I would be ok with a .250 average, if he provides 25+ homers and good defense.

RKMeibalane
02-10-2013, 04:52 PM
You could be onto something. Look at how Derrick Rose responded to Munch's motivation.

Who did Munch want instead of Rose? Was it Mayo? I remember Timberwolf predicting that Mayo would be better than Rose, but I don't remember who Munch wanted the Bulls to take?

DumpJerry
02-10-2013, 04:59 PM
Who did Munch want instead of Rose? Was it Mayo? I remember Timberwolf predicting that Mayo would be better than Rose, but I don't remember who Munch wanted the Bulls to take?
I think it was Mayo. He predicted Rose would be an "epic failure."

DSpivack
02-10-2013, 05:04 PM
Who did Munch want instead of Rose? Was it Mayo? I remember Timberwolf predicting that Mayo would be better than Rose, but I don't remember who Munch wanted the Bulls to take?

I think it was Mayo. He predicted Rose would be an "epic failure."

I thought it was Beasley. And it was "a failure of epic proportions."

DumpJerry
02-10-2013, 05:15 PM
I thought it was Beasley. And it was "a failure of epic proportions."
You're right. A mere "epic failure" would not spur Rose to the level he strove to reach. Make it one of epic proportions, and you're giving the guy a real kick in the pants.

Hope it works on Viciedo.

mzh
02-10-2013, 06:28 PM
It's definitely that point in the offseason when there's a sort of anxiety going around, with most of the roster being set and most everything having been speculated to death by this point. Not much else to do to but play the games. Pitchers and Catchers report Tuesday! :gulp:

Bucky F. Dent
02-10-2013, 06:33 PM
Assuming the Sox don't make any more moves, the three hitters listed at the start of this thread damn well better be better hitters this season.

Lip

Yep - If they're not better hitters in '13, this season will be a loss.

sullythered
02-10-2013, 06:37 PM
So, in summation, the Sox players need to play good for the Sox to be good.

delben91
02-10-2013, 06:52 PM
So are you ready to write of the season entirely? Or are we going to rework work swings entirely at the big league level like rebuilding teams do?

I'm honestly curious, are there any players on the Sox roster that you consider to be of even average major league caliber? Certainly doesn't seem so as I can't remember the last time I saw you say anything positive about anyone on the roster (absolute statements for the win).

Daver
02-10-2013, 06:53 PM
The first time I saw Dayan Viciedo play when he was in the minors with Birmingham, he looked so rough and unpolished. Now that he has one complete season in MLB the term "diamond in the rough" comes to mind. I don't think Viciedo can be another Frank Thomas, but I believe in my heart of hearts that he can be a passable rendition of Carlos Lee. I'm just not completely confident that he will be. So far I like Manto, and hope that his work with Viciedo will pay off.

You see a diamond in the rough, and I see a piece of coal.

sullythered
02-11-2013, 12:18 AM
You see a diamond in the rough, and I see a piece of coal.

Coal can get really hot. :cool:

doublem23
02-11-2013, 07:55 AM
You see a diamond in the rough, and I see a piece of coal.

Yes, but you also told us there was no possible way a butcher like Viciedo could be expected to field his position at the Major League level and all he did was go out and be one of the best defensive left fielders in the American League last year, so maybe cut the kid some slack? I'm sorry he ran over your dog, but let's try and be objective.

Hitmen77
02-11-2013, 08:10 AM
Assuming the Sox don't make any more moves, the three hitters listed at the start of this thread damn well better be better hitters this season.

Lip

They'll have to be better. I'm sure the pitching will be good, but right now this is the offense of a third place team.

I totally agree. If they aren't significantly better hitters, then this looks like an 82-win team and Sox ownership will once again have to instruct us to "appreciate the game!"

russ99
02-11-2013, 08:18 AM
Not impressed with Manto thus far, especially the overly aggressive mentality he's preaching which is getting us constantly behind in counts and is shaving tons of points off the collective team's batting average. Which is especially not helping our players who have challenge hitting .250+.

But let's give him a little slack. Walker was golden for years before he wore on all of us.

Hopefully we'll see some better results this year. Besides, how much is really on the hitting coach and how much is on the jack-happy players?

JB98
02-11-2013, 12:12 PM
Yes, but you also told us there was no possible way a butcher like Viciedo could be expected to field his position at the Major League level and all he did was go out and be one of the best defensive left fielders in the American League last year, so maybe cut the kid some slack? I'm sorry he ran over your dog, but let's try and be objective.

Yeah, despite all the wailing about Viciedo's defense, he was a clear defensive upgrade in LF over Pierre.

At the very least, I don't have to watch the opposition go first to third on singles to left field any longer.

tstrike2000
02-11-2013, 03:20 PM
Yeah, despite all the wailing about Viciedo's defense, he was a clear defensive upgrade in LF over Pierre.

At the very least, I don't have to watch the opposition go first to third on singles to left field any longer.

Yes, not having a noodle arm in LF that allows opposing base runners to take an extra base is a nice thing to have.

SoxSpeed22
02-11-2013, 03:39 PM
For how fast Pierre was, he really wasn't that good of a defender. It wasn't just the arm strength, it was his angles to the ball and costly drops. Let's not forget how many runs Viciedo saved by other teams opting not to send their runners home from 2nd on a single. I would expect him to improve just by adding more experience, so he can get used to tracking the ball and anticipating where it will go.
This is a do or die season for Beckham. He is still good enough defensively that at the very worst, he can be a utility man, but we really need to get more out of him.

TheVulture
02-20-2013, 07:15 PM
I totally agree. If they aren't significantly better hitters, then this looks like an 82-win team and Sox ownership will once again have to instruct us to "appreciate the game!"

The pitching staff still has plenty of upside, I don't think improved offense is necessarily the only route to an improved result.

SoxSpeed22
02-20-2013, 07:29 PM
The pitching staff still has plenty of upside, I don't think improved offense is necessarily the only route to an improved result.I agree with this. Danks is coming back nicely, and also we had more than enough rookies on the pitching staff. They had their ups and downs, and most of them, including Sale and especially Reed, hit the wall at some point. If they can get used to the physical and mental grind of the season, there's plenty of reason to believe our pitching can be among the best in the league.

doublem23
02-21-2013, 08:18 AM
The pitching staff still has plenty of upside, I don't think improved offense is necessarily the only route to an improved result.

Agreed, the Sox actually had a decent offense in 2012; 748 RS was good enough for 4th in the AL behind only Texas (808), New York (804), and Los Angeles (767). They don't need to improve as a whole, but you're going to need certain parts to improve because, obviously, there's going to be a huge drop in production from the C position. As if going from Pierzynski to Flowers wasn't enough of a cliff, Pierzynski had a career year in 2012, too.

slavko
02-21-2013, 08:51 AM
Agreed, the Sox actually had a decent offense in 2012; 748 RS was good enough for 4th in the AL behind only Texas (808), New York (804), and Los Angeles (767). They don't need to improve as a whole, but you're going to need certain parts to improve because, obviously, there's going to be a huge drop in production from the C position. As if going from Pierzynski to Flowers wasn't enough of a cliff, Pierzynski had a career year in 2012, too.


So you're saying that if Pierzynski had stayed, there most likely would have a dropoff at C anyway? OK, it's me saying it.

doublem23
02-21-2013, 09:03 AM
So you're saying that if Pierzynski had stayed, there most likely would have a dropoff at C anyway? OK, it's me saying it.

Yeah, but even AJ's pre-2012 career line of .284/.324/.422 is probably beyond the reach of Flowers's capabilities so the question is going to be can the Sox pick up enough offense from other guys like Dayan, Alexei, Gordon, Keppinger, Dunn, etc. to off set that loss and will Flowers's improved defense compensate for the drop in offense? C is the one spot on the field you can really, really afford to live without a bat if there's enough defense.

Moses_Scurry
02-21-2013, 09:47 AM
Yeah, but even AJ's pre-2012 career line of .284/.324/.422 is probably beyond the reach of Flowers's capabilities so the question is going to be can the Sox pick up enough offense from other guys like Dayan, Alexei, Gordon, Keppinger, Dunn, etc. to off set that loss and will Flowers's improved defense compensate for the drop in offense? C is the one spot on the field you can really, really afford to live without a bat if there's enough defense.

Didn't Pierzynski have a career defensive year as well (at least in terms of throwing out base stealers)? Or am I just imagining things?

SoxNation05
02-21-2013, 10:48 AM
Yeah, but even AJ's pre-2012 career line of .284/.324/.422 is probably beyond the reach of Flowers's capabilities so the question is going to be can the Sox pick up enough offense from other guys like Dayan, Alexei, Gordon, Keppinger, Dunn, etc. to off set that loss and will Flowers's improved defense compensate for the drop in offense? C is the one spot on the field you can really, really afford to live without a bat if there's enough defense.

I think a lot of AJ's value on offense was him being clutch, hitting for a high average and battling pitchers. AJ always saw a lot of pitches when he went up to the plate and did not strike out that much. While I don't think Flowers will be able to do the same, he may not be that much of a downgrade.

AJ's 2012: .279/.326 27 HR 77 RBI
Flowers 2012: .213/.296 7 HR 13 RBI

Looking at Flowers stats last year, obviously they are not impressive. At the same time, he did post an isoOBP at .083 compared to AJ's .047. I am sure everyone thinks Flowers' average will improve as he gets to play almost everyday. Considering that, if he gets his average up to say .240 and still draws walks/HBP at the same clip, he will be on base just as often as AJ. I don't think its too crazy to expect 20-25 home runs from Flowers in 120+ games.

Basically my point: If Flowers can hit .240 (maybe an arduos task) heisn't as signifcant as a downgrade as people think. When you throw in the fact that he has less wear, younger, better defensively and much cheaper, it's easy to understand why Hahn chose to let AJ go.

I know it's JR's money and I should not care but if Flowers puts up a .240/.315 with 22 HRs and above average defense, he is definitely giving more bang for the buck than AJ would have.

SoxNation05
02-21-2013, 10:54 AM
For how fast Pierre was, he really wasn't that good of a defender. It wasn't just the arm strength, it was his angles to the ball and costly drops. Let's not forget how many runs Viciedo saved by other teams opting not to send their runners home from 2nd on a single. I would expect him to improve just by adding more experience, so he can get used to tracking the ball and anticipating where it will go.
This is a do or die season for Beckham. He is still good enough defensively that at the very worst, he can be a utility man, but we really need to get more out of him.

I agree that Bechkam is probably done with the Sox, at least as a starter, if he repeats prior performances this year. If Sanchez has a season similar to last year I don't think they would hesitate to plug him in at 2B and in the 9 spot.

Sanchez is a plus defender who would add speed and average to a team that lacks both. Plus, he would be homegrown and much cheaper than Beckham who is set to make 3.5 million this year.

I don't think people should be ready to toss Sanchez in this year, but if both him and Beckham repeat performances from '12, Beckham has to be done.

PorkChopExpress
02-21-2013, 12:28 PM
I think a lot of AJ's value on offense was him being clutch, hitting for a high average and battling pitchers. AJ always saw a lot of pitches when he went up to the plate and did not strike out that much. While I don't think Flowers will be able to do the same, he may not be that much of a downgrade.

I'm not sure that's right. I don't think AJ sees all that many pitches. Yes, he does not strike out a lot, but that is in part because he doesn't see a lot of pitches, and he makes contact. The only guys on the team last year that saw less pitches per plate appearance than AJ were pitchers and Alexei. AJ saw 3.47 pitches per plate appearance, and the team average was 3.81. Flowers saw 4.20. Flowers will strike out more, no doubt, but he will probably see more pitches, and take more walks than AJ.

Domeshot17
02-21-2013, 01:35 PM
I'm not sure that's right. I don't think AJ sees all that many pitches. Yes, he does not strike out a lot, but that is in part because he doesn't see a lot of pitches, and he makes contact. The only guys on the team last year that saw less pitches per plate appearance than AJ were pitchers and Alexei. AJ saw 3.47 pitches per plate appearance, and the team average was 3.81. Flowers saw 4.20. Flowers will strike out more, no doubt, but he will probably see more pitches, and take more walks than AJ.

Yup, AJ had a great year last year, but a lot of what he did so great was kind of this mystical build up from Hawk Harrelson. Not saying I didn't love AJ, I did, but this idea he was this grindy tough doing all these little things guy, not all of it is really true.

I think when you factor in what Flowers brings defensively, it will balance itself out.

I am worried mostly about regression from our pitchers. I just don't think we can expect Santiago, Quintana, Jones etc. to all be BETTER than last year because I think some of them were throwing way over their heads.

This your typical White Sox style team. They could win 75 games and it would not really shock you, or they could win 86 games and it would not really shock you. They were 4th in the league in runs last year, but built a ton of that up during 2 crazy hot stretches, they had no consistency. Hopefully this year its more balanced.

SoxNation05
02-21-2013, 01:42 PM
Yup, AJ had a great year last year, but a lot of what he did so great was kind of this mystical build up from Hawk Harrelson. Not saying I didn't love AJ, I did, but this idea he was this grindy tough doing all these little things guy, not all of it is really true.

I think when you factor in what Flowers brings defensively, it will balance itself out.

I am worried mostly about regression from our pitchers. I just don't think we can expect Santiago, Quintana, Jones etc. to all be BETTER than last year because I think some of them were throwing way over their heads.

This your typical White Sox style team. They could win 75 games and it would not really shock you, or they could win 86 games and it would not really shock you. They were 4th in the league in runs last year, but built a ton of that up during 2 crazy hot stretches, they had no consistency. Hopefully this year its more balanced.

Great post. The glaring hole in that "4th in the league in runs" statistic was without a doubt the team's consistency.

Quintana I expect very little from. Santiago needs consistent control over the screwball and some added movement on his basically straight fastball. He won't last in our park trying to throw that straight fastball by people. I do however think Santiago has good stuff and decent potential. Jones was huge last year and no one should expect him to put up the same numbers. He may as well be a one year wonder, while I hope he's not, relievers tend to be a crapshoot.