PDA

View Full Version : Hawk On Firing LaRussa...


Lip Man 1
02-04-2013, 11:35 PM
Interesting story. Big mistake by Hawk there... almost as big as trying to make Fisk a left fielder for "can't miss" prospect, Joel Skinner :rolleyes:

http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/sox-drawer/hawk-opens-firing-la-russa

Lip

Mohoney
02-05-2013, 01:12 AM
Hawk's actual accomplishments in baseball come nowhere near his self-promoted perceived accomplishments.

DrCrawdad
02-05-2013, 01:38 AM
Interesting story. Big mistake by Hawk there... almost as big as trying to make Fisk a left fielder for "can't miss" prospect, Joel Skinner :rolleyes:

http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/sox-drawer/hawk-opens-firing-la-russa

Lip

I walked away from that article wondering, what was the Lisle restaurant that Hawk and Tony met at.

TDog
02-05-2013, 04:40 AM
Interesting story. Big mistake by Hawk there... almost as big as trying to make Fisk a left fielder for "can't miss" prospect, Joel Skinner :rolleyes:

http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/sox-drawer/hawk-opens-firing-la-russa (http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/sox-drawer/hawk-opens-firing-la-russa)

Lip

I don't think anyone ever considered Joel Skinner a can't-miss prospect. He was a 37th-round draft pick from the Pirates system and never hit consistently in the minors before never hitting consistently in the majors, although he was regarded as a pretty good defensive catcher. Ron Karkovice, who came up late in the 1986 season, was the first-round pick who seemed to be developing into a solid hitter.

I recall reading that Harrelson said the idea of moving Fisk to left was to extend his career, not to find a place for Skinner to play every day or that the Sox needed to make room for Karkovice. In fact, Skinner was traded midway through the 1986 season. I don't think the White Sox really looked at catchers as being key to the offense between Fisk and Pierzynski.

Frater Perdurabo
02-05-2013, 07:27 AM
I recall reading that Harrelson said the idea of moving Fisk to left was to extend his career...

I don't remember that quote (I was 9 in early 1986), but if true I completely understand that thinking (even if I don't necessarily agree with it). Fisk led the league in homers in 85 while still hitting for a decent average. Of course it made sense from that perspective to find a way to keep his bat in the lineup, to reduce his risk of injury, and to extend his career.

dickallen15
02-05-2013, 09:14 AM
I read an article that stated that Hawk wasn't as bad as a lot of people want to believe. He did get Calderon for next to nothing and he turned into Raines. He got Bonilla as a rule 5, was ripped for trading him for DeLeon, but DeLeon turned into One Dog,and if Bonilla stayed, the Sox might have won a few more games over the years, not enough to win, but enough to keep them from being able to draft guys like McDowell and Thomas. So why it is fashionable on this site to criticize Hawk for everything he does, his "disasterous" stint as a GM, really wasn't so bad. He did inherit a disaster. Britt Burns and Tom Seaver were done, and the minor league system was worse than it is now.

WisSoxFan
02-05-2013, 09:31 AM
I learned Hawk has been in baseball for part of seven decades. First I've heard of that. :rolleyes:

Irishsox1
02-05-2013, 11:25 AM
What's the big deal here, baseball managers get fired. Am I supposed to believe that Tony LaRussa would have stayed with the Sox every year since 1981?...yea, wouldn't happen.

When I think of Tony LaRussa, I think of a great manager and steroids. Why managers don't get tainted the way Mark McGuire has, I don't know why.

SI1020
02-05-2013, 12:49 PM
What's the big deal here, baseball managers get fired. Am I supposed to believe that Tony LaRussa would have stayed with the Sox every year since 1981?...yea, wouldn't happen.

When I think of Tony LaRussa, I think of a great manager and steroids. Why managers don't get tainted the way Mark McGuire has, I don't know why. Besides Conseco who do you think was using on the 88-89-90 A's teams?

Red Barchetta
02-05-2013, 01:16 PM
What's the big deal here, baseball managers get fired. Am I supposed to believe that Tony LaRussa would have stayed with the Sox every year since 1981?...yea, wouldn't happen.

When I think of Tony LaRussa, I think of a great manager and steroids. Why managers don't get tainted the way Mark McGuire has, I don't know why.

As much as I hate how offensive baseball records fell to the ilk of Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Palmeiro, Clemens, etc. during the steroid era, the blame goes beyond the players in question to managers, coaches, trainers, owners, etc. Everyone knew what was going on, however fan butts were in the seats and the popularity of the game was high. They just turned a blind eye.

Although good players became great players by using PEDs, I believe there were a lot more below average players who became average players using PEDs. Players who may have only lasted 2-3 years may have extended their careers to 5-6 years. Players we have already forgotten.

chicagowhitesox1
02-05-2013, 01:23 PM
I read an article that stated that Hawk wasn't as bad as a lot of people want to believe. He did get Calderon for next to nothing and he turned into Raines. He got Bonilla as a rule 5, was ripped for trading him for DeLeon, but DeLeon turned into One Dog,and if Bonilla stayed, the Sox might have won a few more games over the years, not enough to win, but enough to keep them from being able to draft guys like McDowell and Thomas. So why it is fashionable on this site to criticize Hawk for everything he does, his "disasterous" stint as a GM, really wasn't so bad. He did inherit a disaster. Britt Burns and Tom Seaver were done, and the minor league system was worse than it is now.

I read something about this on another message board and Harrelson actually made some good moves. I was kinda surprised by it because I always thought he ruined the Sox.

dickallen15
02-05-2013, 02:17 PM
I read something about this on another message board and Harrelson actually made some good moves. I was kinda surprised by it because I always thought he ruined the Sox.

They obviously lost a lot of games, and Hawk made some mistakes. But their 2 best starters from the year before were toast. Burns never pitched again, and Seaver wanted to be on the East Coast. Fisk put up an Ozzie Guillen-like .600 OPS. They were doomed. And one of the big reasons Hawk got the job was because of the lack of talent in the farm system.

I forget who wrote the article I read, but it was interesting. Had Hawk been just slightly more successful, had he kept Bobby Bonilla who he picked up for nothing anyway, Frank Thomas probably would never have been a White Sox. Hawk's one year reign as the Sox GM was the beginning of their resurgence starting in 1990.

Domeshot17
02-05-2013, 02:20 PM
I read an article that stated that Hawk wasn't as bad as a lot of people want to believe. He did get Calderon for next to nothing and he turned into Raines. He got Bonilla as a rule 5, was ripped for trading him for DeLeon, but DeLeon turned into One Dog,and if Bonilla stayed, the Sox might have won a few more games over the years, not enough to win, but enough to keep them from being able to draft guys like McDowell and Thomas. So why it is fashionable on this site to criticize Hawk for everything he does, his "disasterous" stint as a GM, really wasn't so bad. He did inherit a disaster. Britt Burns and Tom Seaver were done, and the minor league system was worse than it is now.

I get what you are saying, but I hate this line of thinking. It isn't just your statement, but I don't agree with an ends justify the means approach for bad moves. Its the same as people who praise say, John Paxson, for messing up trading Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas since we might not have won the lottery to get Rose.

If Hawk was planning on making bad moves to get Black Jack and Big Frank, awesome. Otherwise, they were just bad moves.

dickallen15
02-05-2013, 03:08 PM
I get what you are saying, but I hate this line of thinking. It isn't just your statement, but I don't agree with an ends justify the means approach for bad moves. Its the same as people who praise say, John Paxson, for messing up trading Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas since we might not have won the lottery to get Rose.

If Hawk was planning on making bad moves to get Black Jack and Big Frank, awesome. Otherwise, they were just bad moves.

But the moves really weren't that bad. Calderon was a nice acquistion for Scott Bradley. Then Calderon became Tim Raines. They acquired Bonilla for nothing, then traded him for DeLeon, who they traded several years later for One Dog and Rickey Horton.

The moves he gets busted about where Fisk to LF, which lasted 31 games. Firing LaRussa and trading Bonilla who he picked up for nothing which is never pointed out as a positive.

Granted it didn't work out, but there were a few positives that occured during his reign and after. The guy he hired to take LaRussa's place managed in a World Series.

And another thing that people miss when dreaming of Tony LaRussa leading the Sox to multiple championships..........he used to get booed worse than Jerry Manuel. There weren't a lot of White Sox fans up in arms when he was let go.

TommyJohn
02-05-2013, 05:53 PM
And another thing that people miss when dreaming of Tony LaRussa leading the Sox to multiple championships..........he used to get booed worse than Jerry Manuel. There weren't a lot of White Sox fans up in arms when he was let go.


:bandance::clap::worship:

Brian26
02-05-2013, 07:44 PM
I walked away from that article wondering, what was the Lisle restaurant that Hawk and Tony met at.

I'm trying to figure out which golf course Hawk scheduled this meeting near so he could get a round in before deciding to fire LaRussa. My original theory was Seven Bridges, but I don't think it was built until the early 90's.

Brian26
02-05-2013, 10:18 PM
Besides Conseco who do you think was using on the 88-89-90 A's teams?

Where do you want me to start? Dave Stewart, Bob Welch (27 wins, really), Dave Henderson, Tony Phillips, etc. Lots of flawed character guys on that team who had sudden jumps in production.

SI1020
02-05-2013, 10:24 PM
Where do you want me to start? Dave Stewart, Bob Welch (27 wins, really), Dave Henderson, Tony Phillips, etc. Lots of flawed character guys on that team who had sudden jumps in production. I'm not discounting you, I've wondered myself so I asked the question. However I will go out on a limb and say that I don't think McGwire got into them, at least in a big way, until 96. I also think the PED use in baseball peaked in the decade after the 94 strike.

Edit: I think you need to cross Tony Phillips off that list.

doogiec
02-05-2013, 10:40 PM
I'm trying to figure out which golf course Hawk scheduled this meeting near so he could get a round in before deciding to fire LaRussa. My original theory was Seven Bridges, but I don't think it was built until the early 90's.

I'm betting that he shot a round at the old Woodridge golf course (which was approximately where Seven Bridges is now) and then took the five minute drive up 53 to Del Debbios on Ogden to fire LaRussa. Del Debbios seems like it would have been a good place to fire a future Hall of Fame manager. Pretty good food, reasonable prices, and kind of dark and quiet inside.

doogiec
02-05-2013, 10:44 PM
When I think of Tony LaRussa, I think of a great manager and steroids. Why managers don't get tainted the way Mark McGuire has, I don't know why.

Of everyone involved in baseball, managers really had the least to do with the issue of steroids.

What were they supposed to do? They couldn't test the players on their own. They don't necessarily have much say in what players are on the roster. They can't realistically bench or release a player based on suspicion. And if they call out the player in public based on suspicion alone, they would completely lose the team.

Every manager probably had roiders, and not one of them could do anything about it.

RKMeibalane
02-05-2013, 11:01 PM
I'm not discounting you, I've wondered myself so I asked the question. However I will go out on a limb and say that I don't think McGwire got into them, at least in a big way, until 96. I also think the PED use in baseball peaked in the decade after the 94 strike.

I don't know that I believe that. I think he actually started using before the 1992 season. If you look at his 1991 numbers, he was in danger of falling below the .200-mark, and barely managed twenty home runs. LaRussa actually sat him- at his request- in order to avoid the embarrassment of a sub-.200 season.

His 1992 numbers were remarkably better, as he fell one home run short of the league-lead (Juan Gonzalez), in spite of missing almost two months after straining a muscle in his rib-cage in a game at Camden Yards. I actually remember the game. He took an awkward swing, stopped, and immediately walked from the batters' box into the A's clubhouse. Lance Blankenship replaced him and finished the at-bat.

Edit: He didn't miss two months, as the injury happened Friday, August 21, 1992, but I was right about Blankenship replacing him. Here's the box-score (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1992/B08210BAL1992.htm) from the game in question.

RKMeibalane
02-05-2013, 11:07 PM
Hawk's actual accomplishments in baseball come nowhere near his self-promoted perceived accomplishments.

And even those don't compare to the accomplishments of guess who?

YAZ!

Lip Man 1
02-06-2013, 12:45 AM
Another one of the biggest "what if's" in Sox history.

Courtesy of my interview with Jack McDowell:

ML: I’m not trying to place blame here but the Sox as good as they were, always seemed to be one piece short. Whether it was another starter or another big bat to go with Thomas and Ventura. Do you think the organization did everything they could to get to a World Series?

JM: "That’s tough to say. I know that Mark McGwire wanted to come here. He called me three times in about a ten day period after the 1991 season. He asked me about the other guys in the clubhouse, about the coaching staff and about the city of Chicago. I honestly felt we were going to get him. I called Robin (Ventura) to let him know what was going on and I remember he was excited. He told me ‘alright...we’re going to kick ass.’ The Sox then asked Frank (Thomas) if he’d go to DH full time so that Mark could play first and he said no.".

Lip

TheVulture
02-06-2013, 05:46 AM
Every manager probably had roiders, and not one of them could do anything about it.

Yes, but Larussa had roiders who followed him around. He retired with one of the biggest roiders of all time as his hitting coach for christ sake.

RKMeibalane
02-06-2013, 12:24 PM
Another one of the biggest "what if's" in Sox history.

Courtesy of my interview with Jack McDowell:

ML: I’m not trying to place blame here but the Sox as good as they were, always seemed to be one piece short. Whether it was another starter or another big bat to go with Thomas and Ventura. Do you think the organization did everything they could to get to a World Series?

JM: "That’s tough to say. I know that Mark McGwire wanted to come here. He called me three times in about a ten day period after the 1991 season. He asked me about the other guys in the clubhouse, about the coaching staff and about the city of Chicago. I honestly felt we were going to get him. I called Robin (Ventura) to let him know what was going on and I remember he was excited. He told me ‘alright...we’re going to kick ass.’ The Sox then asked Frank (Thomas) if he’d go to DH full time so that Mark could play first and he said no.".

Lip

I'm glad that didn't happen. I don't think McGwire would have put the Sox over the top. He didn't hit for average: he didn't draw walks. And given Frank's difficulties while being used as a DH, it's possible McGwire's presence would have prevented Thomas from becoming the player that we remember.

mahagga73
02-12-2013, 12:29 PM
And even those don't compare to the accomplishments of guess who?

YAZ!
what about Ted Williams?

dickallen15
02-12-2013, 01:29 PM
what about Ted Williams?

I never saw Ted Williams play, but he did have a lifetime 1.116 OPS over 19 seasons despite missing 3 prime years being a war hero. Putting that into a little perspective, Frank Thomas as great as he was, only put up an OPS that high one season. So if Hawk wants to share a little wisdom from him, I think it is worthwhile to hear.

mahagga73
02-12-2013, 03:00 PM
I never saw Ted Williams play, but he did have a lifetime 1.116 OPS over 19 seasons despite missing 3 prime years being a war hero. Putting that into a little perspective, Frank Thomas as great as he was, only put up an OPS that high one season. So if Hawk wants to share a little wisdom from him, I think it is worthwhile to hear.
Yeah, I know he was one of the elite players ever. I just said that because half of Hawks stories start with how he was taking to Ted Williams. Yaz was about 40 when I saw him play, but he played a heck of a long time and did win the triple crown .