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View Full Version : Update: RYAN BRAUN added to A-Rod, Gio, Cruz, Melky, Colon, etc. implicated for PEDs


doublem23
01-29-2013, 09:29 AM
In a Miami clinic's records...

http://deadspin.com/5979819/?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

beasly213
01-29-2013, 09:45 AM
I don't think there is any story that can come out that says "Player X linked to PEDs" that would shock me anymore.

WhiteSox5187
01-29-2013, 10:20 AM
A-Rod isn't particularly surprising. Doctors were saying his hip injuries might have been linked to steroid use. I saw on Twitter that the Yankees might try and get the contract voided somehow.

SephClone89
01-29-2013, 10:21 AM
I don't think there is any story that can come out that says "Player X linked to PEDs" that would shock me anymore.

Yeah, I'm pretty much at the OKAY EVERYONE IS USING WHATEVER point now.

SoxNation05
01-29-2013, 10:26 AM
A-Rod has said numerous times that his steroid use could be limited to 2001-2003 and that is obviously not the case.

I remember watching Gio throw in ST in 2007 at Ho Ho Kam against the Cubs and I knew this kid would be good. He had a certain prescense on the mound out there, he knew how to change speeds but I definitely had doubt with his size considering how short and skinny he was. Apparently Gio and his camp had the same thought process. Sucks to see a guy that I watched develop and really rooted for suceed only to get his production overshadowed by steroid allegations.

Jon Heyman tweeted that there does not need to be a positive test in order to file a suspension. It is likely that a full investigation takes place and suspensions are handed out.

voodoochile
01-29-2013, 10:28 AM
fJKt-DhII_4

SoxNation05
01-29-2013, 10:29 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty much at the OKAY EVERYONE IS USING WHATEVER point now.
I do not know about that. You can definitely see the numbers fall after the isolated years that have been considered the "steroid era." While I will not be surprised if any player shows up in rumors or tests positive, there has definitely been an improvement on the overall landscape of PEDs in the MLB.

WhiteSox5187
01-29-2013, 10:29 AM
I wonder if the Blue Jays can void Cabrera's contract now. If there are suspensions handed down his should be for the whole season.

spawn
01-29-2013, 10:34 AM
Just got an ESPN alert on this. Did Deadspin beat them to the punch again?

EDIT: never mind. A Miami newspaper I believe reported this first.

SoxNation05
01-29-2013, 10:36 AM
I wonder if the Blue Jays can void Cabrera's contract now. If there are suspensions handed down his should be for the whole season.

Interesting. Cabrera's suspension from last August is probably from the substances he obtained from this lab. Would that not be the same as punishing him twice?

Lip Man 1
01-29-2013, 11:29 AM
Maybe the Gio deals Kenny pulled off won't turn out to be so bad after all. Especially if Gio in fact is suspended for using them.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
01-29-2013, 12:22 PM
Maybe the Gio deals Kenny pulled off won't turn out to be so bad after all. Especially if Gio in fact is suspended for using them.

Lip

Ken Rosenthal was just on MLB Network and mentioned that what Gio was acquiring was anti-aging stuff which would support what Gio's father said which was that he had the connection to the dealer in Miami and Gio just paid for it. ARod and Melky Cabrera are linked to HGH and testosterone amongst other things.

PaleHoser
01-29-2013, 12:53 PM
A-Rod isn't particularly surprising. Doctors were saying his hip injuries might have been linked to steroid use. I saw on Twitter that the Yankees might try and get the contract voided somehow.

The Yankees get what they deserve. They gave him a $3.5M a year raise when he opted out of his contract and they were bidding against no one.

I would have liked to have seen them go after Jason Giambi when he finally came clean. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that you can argue fraud when you give a player a 7/$125M deal (or whatever it was) based on previous performance that was a result of PED use.

DeadMoney
01-29-2013, 01:03 PM
Ken Rosenthal was just on MLB Network and mentioned that what Gio was acquiring was anti-aging stuff which would support what Gio's father said which was that he had the connection to the dealer in Miami and Gio just paid for it. ARod and Melky Cabrera are linked to HGH and testosterone amongst other things.

This could be true, as Gio's denial (on Twitter) leaves this possibility open. But... Gio also referred to "Anthony Bosch" as "tony" in the same set of Tweets. Weird, considering most articles - and headlines - refer to him as "Anthony".

HomeFish
01-29-2013, 02:27 PM
Apparently the stuff the clinic was selling is not on baseball's list of banned substances.

Still, it's dumb that this guy kept records on selling PEDs to pro ball players.

WhiteSox5187
01-29-2013, 03:58 PM
Apparently the stuff the clinic was selling is not on baseball's list of banned substances.

Still, it's dumb that this guy kept records on selling PEDs to pro ball players.

Earlier this morning on MLB's Hot Stove Ken Rosenthal listed every substance that Cabrera and A-Rod were linked to and said they were all on the banned substance list. He then said what Gio and Cruz were linked to wasn't clear.

WhiteSox5187
01-29-2013, 04:12 PM
The Yankees are looking at "20 different ways" to void A-Rod's contract.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/8894904/alex-rodriguez-contract-attempting-voided-new-york-yankees-according-sources

tstrike2000
01-29-2013, 04:29 PM
Just saw this article on Yahoo and the quote of this company being, "The Balco of the east." Pretty soon, new companies will just pop up and start sending MLB players samples of PED's in the mail like Tide laundry detergent.

Lip Man 1
01-29-2013, 06:17 PM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8893372/baseball-stiffen-ped-penalties

Lip

SoxSpeed22
01-29-2013, 07:32 PM
Personally, I like 80 games for the first offense, 162 for the second, and you're outta here after the 3rd. I'm sure someone else will come up with something. I think offseason testing needs to be emphasized.

WhiteSox5187
01-29-2013, 07:57 PM
Personally, I like 80 games for the first offense, 162 for the second, and you're outta here after the 3rd. I'm sure someone else will come up with something. I think offseason testing needs to be emphasized.

I would say that it should be a 162 (plus playoffs) ban for the first violation, 324 (plus playoffs) for the second and then a life time ban for the third violation. I would also start trying to include clauses that would result in the voiding of any contract by a player who tests positive. Maybe lawyers could also include some language that would allow a team to sue users for fraud if they signed a contract while using or something. Going after the money is the only real way to get guys to reconsider using steroids. Right now it still makes a lot of sense for a guy like Melky Cabrera to risk getting caught in order to go from a $400,000 salary as a 4th outfielder to an $8 million salary as a starter and All Star MVP.

34rancher
01-29-2013, 09:27 PM
Personally, I like 80 games for the first offense, 162 for the second, and you're outta here after the 3rd. I'm sure someone else will come up with something. I think offseason testing needs to be emphasized.

Dumb question, but do the players get paid or unpaid leave during suspension?

Lip Man 1
01-29-2013, 10:34 PM
Unpaid in most cases.

Lip

Noneck
01-30-2013, 09:32 PM
What baffles me is that these players would actually go and buy this stuff under their name. Dont these guys have friends, relatives, etc they can trust to buy this and then give it to them?

WhiteSox5187
01-30-2013, 10:34 PM
What baffles me is that these players would actually go and buy this stuff under their name. Dont these guys have friends, relatives, etc they can trust to buy this and then give it to them?

A-Rod's cousin has been linked to a couple of guys so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he has been buying stuff for A-Rod too.

GoSox2K3
01-31-2013, 10:00 AM
Maybe the Gio deals Kenny pulled off won't turn out to be so bad after all. Especially if Gio in fact is suspended for using them.

Lip

If it makes us feel better about the awful Swisher trades, sure why not?

ComiskeyBrewer
01-31-2013, 10:39 AM
Heard on the score this morning that rumor is more names will be released next week.

mzh
01-31-2013, 10:56 AM
There are talks now that this may force A-Rod into retirement (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/a-done-alex-return-yankees-sources-article-1.1251858?localLinksEnabled=false). :o:

What a way to end what could have been the greatest career ever. What a scumbag. If this is how it actually ends, he'll have a stain at least as big as Barroid and Clemens going down the road.

Red Barchetta
01-31-2013, 12:40 PM
There are talks now that this may force A-Rod into retirement (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/a-done-alex-return-yankees-sources-article-1.1251858?localLinksEnabled=false). :o:

What a way to end what could have been the greatest career ever. What a scumbag. If this is how it actually ends, he'll have a stain at least as big as Barroid and Clemens going down the road.

It's really sad. I really liked watching him play earlier in his career with Seattle.

I think he is done due to the hip injury. I also think the Yankees will settle with him and pay a portion of his remaining contract if he retires early. That way, if he ever does consider coming back, the Yankees would maintain rights and trade him. (Something is better than nothing)

I just can't imagine him working his way back to be a DH at this point in his career.

Hitmen77
01-31-2013, 01:50 PM
There are talks now that this may force A-Rod into retirement (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/a-done-alex-return-yankees-sources-article-1.1251858?localLinksEnabled=false). :o:

What a way to end what could have been the greatest career ever. What a scumbag. If this is how it actually ends, he'll have a stain at least as big as Barroid and Clemens going down the road.

At one time, I thought he was almost certain to end up passing Aaron and Bonds for all-time HR leader. He already surpassed 600 HR at age 34.

Too bad the Yanks won it all in 2009 - I would have loved to see A-Rod finish his career without a WS title. At least it looks like he's getting his name properly tarnished just like Bonds, Clemens, etc.

As much as I can't stand him, I hope the Yankees aren't able to weasel out of paying him the rest of his contract. They like throwing stupid money at players to buy up championships. So, let them choke on that $20M/year that they agreed to pay him until he is 42.....of course, that kind of contract is just a minor speed bump to the Yankee$.

palehozenychicty
02-01-2013, 12:01 AM
At one time, I thought he was almost certain to end up passing Aaron and Bonds for all-time HR leader. He already surpassed 600 HR at age 34.

Too bad the Yanks won it all in 2009 - I would have loved to see A-Rod finish his career without a WS title. At least it looks like he's getting his name properly tarnished just like Bonds, Clemens, etc.

As much as I can't stand him, I hope the Yankees aren't able to weasel out of paying him the rest of his contract. They like throwing stupid money at players to buy up championships. So, let them choke on that $20M/year that they agreed to pay him until he is 42.....of course, that kind of contract is just a minor speed bump to the Yankee$.


If anything, he'll retire and they could collect from insurance. But I doubt that the MLB Players Union will let guaranteed money be voided. Plus we don't have legal precedence. Belle was forced into retirement due to hip degeneration, and the O's collected from insurance.

I think a buyout is the most likely scenario. I'd be stunned if he plays again anytime soon.

soxfanreggie
02-01-2013, 12:28 AM
If anything, he'll retire and they could collect from insurance. But I doubt that the MLB Players Union will let guaranteed money be voided. Plus we don't have legal precedence. Belle was forced into retirement due to hip degeneration, and the O's collected from insurance.

I think a buyout is the most likely scenario. I'd be stunned if he plays again anytime soon.

If he is physically able and wants to play, I think someone will take a flyer on him. Heck, how many chances did Manny get? Several.

Brian26
02-05-2013, 07:36 PM
So Ryan Braun's on the list now too? Unreal. MLB TV is reporting it.

WhiteSox5187
02-05-2013, 08:21 PM
This is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. And I don't think Ryan Braun will have any technicality to get him out of this.

madisonsoxfan
02-05-2013, 08:23 PM
Ryan Braun's statement just came out.
http://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/2013/02/05/braun-statement-2/

blandman
02-05-2013, 09:16 PM
Ryan Braun's statement just came out.
http://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/2013/02/05/braun-statement-2/

That could be legit.

I still think he roided.

Boondock Saint
02-05-2013, 09:26 PM
That could be legit.

I still think he roided.

This is pretty much exactly my thinking on the situation.

ComiskeyBrewer
02-05-2013, 09:27 PM
That could be legit.

I still think he roided.

Could very easily be both. I personally think almost everybody uses some form of PEDs in baseball. Might not be roids, but definitely something.

DeadMoney
02-06-2013, 08:54 AM
That could be legit.

I still think he roided.

I know nothing about the PED industry and how much things cost, but $20,000-$30,000 seems like an awful lot to pay a PED clinic for "consulting".

TheOldRoman
02-06-2013, 09:25 AM
I know nothing about the PED industry and how much things cost, but $20,000-$30,000 seems like an awful lot to pay a PED clinic for "consulting".It doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me. It's less than doctors get for consulting on malpractice in some cases. Besides, this was in attempt to overturn a suspension which would have cost him $2 million in salary.

Domeshot17
02-06-2013, 09:36 AM
Braun got busted for fast acting testosterone. It literally is in and out of your system in 3 days (and often times taken as a dissolvable solution thrown under the tounge if I am remembering right). He must have taken it almost immediately before being notified of his test. Its used more as a healing agent, and is one of the more rampant "little known" drugs in mlb.

slavko
02-06-2013, 10:08 AM
I still think he roided.

".

Just by his body language when he made the announcement last time.

Say, didya know that Sandy Koufax's original last name was Braun but he used his stepfather's name even though he was never adopted? Koufax sounds like a variation of Kovacs.

kittle42
02-06-2013, 10:19 AM
I know nothing about the PED industry and how much things cost, but $20,000-$30,000 seems like an awful lot to pay a PED clinic for "consulting".

It's not. We have lots of consultants at our company getting paid a lot more than that for short jobs.

thomas35forever
02-06-2013, 11:51 AM
What a surprise. Can we stop giving sympathy to this clown now?

Nellie_Fox
02-06-2013, 01:04 PM
I know nothing about the PED industry and how much things cost, but $20,000-$30,000 seems like an awful lot to pay a PED clinic for "consulting".Heck, I charge $200 an hour for consulting on legal cases (plus expenses if I actually have to leave my house,) and I'm a nobody!

white sox bill
02-06-2013, 05:21 PM
With due respect to other posters, am I the only one who really is getting to the point of "who cares" anymore? While I realize that the sport needs a porch sweeping, I'm getting callous to all this. No name shocks me anymore, its getting so common. Likely not going anyway anytime soon as science now can mask AAS.

Now when someone tests negative, thats when a thread should be started :wink:

ComiskeyBrewer
02-07-2013, 01:42 AM
With due respect to other posters, am I the only one who really is getting to the point of "who cares" anymore?

I'm right there with you. I used to be one of those "WE NEED A CLEAN GAME" guys, but over the past 5 years i've slowly come to the realization that the game has never been clean(whether it be HGH, roids, greenies or something else), and will never be clean. If baseball manages to get rid of steroids and HGH, the players will move onto the next thing(as most already have). I'm not saying don't test, and don't try to clean up the game. I'm saying it's a futile effort(albiet a noble one) and nieve to think the game was actually ever clean to begin with.

Mr. Jinx
02-07-2013, 09:41 AM
With due respect to other posters, am I the only one who really is getting to the point of "who cares" anymore? While I realize that the sport needs a porch sweeping, I'm getting callous to all this. No name shocks me anymore, its getting so common. Likely not going anyway anytime soon as science now can mask AAS.

Now when someone tests negative, thats when a thread should be started :wink:

No, you are not the only one, there's a lot more who think like you as well.

Carolina Kenny
02-07-2013, 09:43 AM
I'm right there with you. I used to be one of those "WE NEED A CLEAN GAME" guys, but over the past 5 years i've slowly come to the realization that the game has never been clean(whether it be HGH, roids, greenies or something else), and will never be clean. If baseball manages to get rid of steroids and HGH, the players will move onto the next thing(as most already have). I'm not saying don't test, and don't try to clean up the game. I'm saying it's a futile effort(albiet a noble one) and nieve to think the game was actually ever clean to begin with.


Minnie Minoso never cheated. He should be in the HOF.

SI1020
02-07-2013, 09:51 AM
I'm right there with you. I used to be one of those "WE NEED A CLEAN GAME" guys, but over the past 5 years i've slowly come to the realization that the game has never been clean(whether it be HGH, roids, greenies or something else), and will never be clean. If baseball manages to get rid of steroids and HGH, the players will move onto the next thing(as most already have). I'm not saying don't test, and don't try to clean up the game. I'm saying it's a futile effort(albiet a noble one) and nieve to think the game was actually ever clean to begin with. I'm a pretty cynical person but for the millionth time I find it difficult to compare what was done in the past with what is being done now. The technology is just light years ahead of anything the old timers might have had access to. I also get tired of trying to argue that amphetamine use over time does not enhance anybody's performance at anything. Still, I can't say I blame or begrudge you your strong opinion on the subject. PED's in sports is making all of us cynical.

sullythered
02-07-2013, 10:47 AM
I'm right there with you. I used to be one of those "WE NEED A CLEAN GAME" guys, but over the past 5 years i've slowly come to the realization that the game has never been clean(whether it be HGH, roids, greenies or something else), and will never be clean. If baseball manages to get rid of steroids and HGH, the players will move onto the next thing(as most already have). I'm not saying don't test, and don't try to clean up the game. I'm saying it's a futile effort(albiet a noble one) and nieve to think the game was actually ever clean to begin with.
There's a BIG difference between "completely clean" and "not a science experiment.

http://i.imgur.com/YsSDgWT.png?1?3743

ComiskeyBrewer
02-07-2013, 11:13 AM
Minnie Minoso never cheated. He should be in the HOF.

Probably didn't, and should be in the hall of fame i agree. But i honestly can't say one way or the other with 100% certainty. I wasn't in that locker room with him.


There's a BIG difference between "completely clean" and "not a science experiment.


Never said there wasn't, but i think drugs in the 60s and 70s played a much larger role than some. People poo-poo amphetamines like they weren't a factor, but decry HGH, when the roles they play are not that different.

I'm a pretty cynical person but for the millionth time I find it difficult to compare what was done in the past with what is being done now.

I'm not trying to compare, saying both are equally bad(they aren't even close, IMO), but i think drugs in the past played a bigger role than many want to admit.

Hendu
02-07-2013, 11:57 AM
I'm right there with you. I used to be one of those "WE NEED A CLEAN GAME" guys, but over the past 5 years i've slowly come to the realization that the game has never been clean(whether it be HGH, roids, greenies or something else), and will never be clean. If baseball manages to get rid of steroids and HGH, the players will move onto the next thing(as most already have). I'm not saying don't test, and don't try to clean up the game. I'm saying it's a futile effort(albiet a noble one) and nieve to think the game was actually ever clean to begin with.

Sadly, I'm in the same spot as well. When you've got a bunch of highly competitive guys getting their one shot at fame and money, they're going to do what they have to either to get ahead or keep up. The technology may have changed, but the intent has been the same since the days of vaseline under baseball caps, sign stealing, etc.

Testing isn't going to stop this either. The scientists will always be able to stay one step ahead of the testing, and both players and labs will eventually get smart enough so the product can't be traced back to the users in case of federal raids.

Mr. Jinx
02-07-2013, 12:31 PM
Probably didn't, and should be in the hall of fame i agree. But i honestly can't say one way or the other with 100% certainty. I wasn't in that locker room with him.




Never said there wasn't, but i think drugs in the 60s and 70s played a much larger role than some. People poo-poo amphetamines like they weren't a factor, but decry HGH, when the roles they play are not that different.



I'm not trying to compare, saying both are equally bad(they aren't even close, IMO), but i think drugs in the past played a bigger role than many want to admit.


Yes, yes, and yes.

TDog
02-07-2013, 03:24 PM
With due respect to other posters, am I the only one who really is getting to the point of "who cares" anymore? While I realize that the sport needs a porch sweeping, I'm getting callous to all this. No name shocks me anymore, its getting so common. Likely not going anyway anytime soon as science now can mask AAS.

Now when someone tests negative, thats when a thread should be started :wink:

I don't think you're the only one who doesn't care anymore. But even many people who don't care want their sports to be clean, except perhaps football, where no one seems to care. The public may be inured to the so much performance-enhancing drug use that goes way beyond stimulants, but the public is less likely to support baseball if the drugs are part of the fabric of the game.

white sox bill
02-09-2013, 12:47 PM
I don't think you're the only one who doesn't care anymore. But even many people who don't care want their sports to be clean, except perhaps football, where no one seems to care. The public may be inured to the so much performance-enhancing drug use that goes way beyond stimulants, but the public is less likely to support baseball if the drugs are part of the fabric of the game.
I really don't know what to think these days as like I said, PED's are here to stay. Maybe its the game evolving....maybe its because as a gym owner I see the face of steroids everyday as many my members use them. Look at Babe Ruth, hell he swatted homers left and right and his nutritional menu was hot dogs and beer. Imagine the Baberino on gear.....

Bob Roarman
02-09-2013, 05:35 PM
I don't think you're the only one who doesn't care anymore. But even many people who don't care want their sports to be clean, except perhaps football, where no one seems to care. The public may be inured to the so much performance-enhancing drug use that goes way beyond stimulants, but the public is less likely to support baseball if the drugs are part of the fabric of the game.

The same public that doesn't care about it until it puts what they consider a "black eye" on their sport? Well I've got bad news for the public...

TDog
02-10-2013, 12:46 PM
The same public that doesn't care about it until it puts what they consider a "black eye" on their sport? Well I've got bad news for the public...

If the public knows about it, the public cares. When the public knows about it, the public cares.

I don't believe it is a logically valid conclusion to state that because the public was excited about the game that was played with clandestine use of illegal performance-enchancing drugs that you can say the public supports performance-enchancing drugs. Part of the excitement about the game was the belief that it was honest.

The public isn't being hypocritical about wanting to clean up the game. The public wants a clean game. It always has and it always will.

Bob Roarman
02-10-2013, 01:10 PM
Oh bull****. Come on, the 70s and 80s alone. Don't even have to go into the first rumblings of steroids around McGuire and all the backlash that got from fans and fellow journalists when he was first questioned. Those people were outcast who dared to do that. When will you stop believing this sanctity of the game act? People knew. Fans were more than happy to ignore it until it became unavoidable. Writers until it became a viable story.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 02:09 PM
I wish that "steroid era" would be called the "juiced ball" era. The ball had more to do with the explosion in home runs than PED's. PED's have always, and will always be rampant in sports. The ball was what separated that era more than anything. It really makes Pedro Martinez' numbers during that time even more brilliant. I really think he's the best pitcher I've ever seen.

mzh
02-10-2013, 02:12 PM
I wish that "steroid era" would be called the "juiced ball" era. The ball had more to do with the explosion in home runs than PED's. PED's have always, and will always be rampant in sports. The ball was what separated that era more than anything. It really makes Pedro Martinez' numbers during that time even more brilliant. I really think he's the best pitcher I've ever seen.
Bull.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 02:14 PM
Bull.
Players used PED's before that era and they're still using them. Why was that era unique? It was the ball. I remember watching a show where they were comparing the ball used in MLB and the ball used in Japan, they were completely different.

mzh
02-10-2013, 02:25 PM
Players used PED's before that era and they're still using them. Why was that era unique? It was the ball. I remember watching a show where they were comparing the ball used in MLB and the ball used in Japan, they were completely different.
Because Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, or anyone else you want to name until the mid 1980s didn't have access to high-tech anabolic steroids that Bonds et al did. Steroids and HGH are NOT the same thing as Speed or Greenies.

And yeah, MLB and Japan use slightly different sized balls. Our baseball hasn't changed since 1920, and whether it did even then is debatable.

mzh
02-10-2013, 02:35 PM
For reference, here's Babe Ruth, Hank Greenberg, and Willie Mays.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xEdRg-6CKJM/TBO9xnO2IEI/AAAAAAAAAIw/SPl0jcCzK0Q/s1600/11%2520babe%2520ruth.jpghttp://www.achievement.org/achievers/may0/photos/may0-048a.gifhttp://tripleinthegap.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/49hank-greenberg.jpg

Now here are Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds, and Sammy Sosa:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7pqBwvaCApY/UJQygYqaUKI/AAAAAAAAB00/XIduL0U3P0U/s1600/mark_mcgwiremilk.jpghttp://tripleinthegap.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/barry_bonds.jpghttp://weblogs.cltv.com/news/local/chicago/sammy%20sosa%20pix.jpg

Spot the difference? Before the steroid era having the bicep circumference of a baby rhinoceros was probably considered a bit of a medical abnormality among baseball players.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 02:56 PM
Because Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, or anyone else you want to name until the mid 1980s didn't have access to high-tech anabolic steroids that Bonds et al did. Steroids and HGH are NOT the same thing as Speed or Greenies.

And yeah, MLB and Japan use slightly different sized balls. Our baseball hasn't changed since 1920, and whether it did even then is debatable.
The ball during the steroid era is nothing like the ball they used then. The ball has changed a lot over the years. The ball during the steroid era was wound so tight that they seams were indented.

Players today are still well built and they're still taking PED's, but they're not hitting 70 HR's a year anymore. Why?

WhiteSox5187
02-10-2013, 03:21 PM
The ball during the steroid era is nothing like the ball they used then. The ball has changed a lot over the years. The ball during the steroid era was wound so tight that they seams were indented.

Players today are still well built and they're still taking PED's, but they're not hitting 70 HR's a year anymore. Why?

Back in 2009 Buerhle was saying that he thought the ball was wound tighter now than it was in the steroid era.

SI1020
02-10-2013, 03:23 PM
I wish that "steroid era" would be called the "juiced ball" era. The ball had more to do with the explosion in home runs than PED's. PED's have always, and will always be rampant in sports. The ball was what separated that era more than anything. It really makes Pedro Martinez' numbers during that time even more brilliant. I really think he's the best pitcher I've ever seen. Some people are so effin dense when it comes to this issue. With that type of thinking many people hire, promote and fire, sit on juries and make judgements. It's scary.

mzh
02-10-2013, 03:28 PM
Some people are so effin dense when it comes to this issue. With that type of thinking many people hire, promote and fire, sit on juries and make judgements. It's scary.
I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying into the idea that Brady ****ing Anderson hit 50 home runs because the seams on the ball were altered slightly.

SI1020
02-10-2013, 03:33 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying into the idea that Brady ****ing Anderson hit 50 home runs because the seams on the ball were altered slightly. Yes I agree with you and you've made a great argument. Love those photos. Some just won't come off an entirely unreasonable and intransigent stance.

mzh
02-10-2013, 03:44 PM
Yes I agree with you and you've made a great argument. Love those photos. Some just won't come off an entirely unreasonable and intransigent stance.
What I don't understand is the stance that we should just accept it because it happens. It'll never be a 'pure' game and it never has been, but that don't mean we shouldn't fight to preserve some sort of semblance of integrity.

ComiskeyBrewer
02-10-2013, 04:02 PM
What I don't understand is the stance that we should just accept it because it happens. It'll never be a 'pure' game and it never has been, but that don't mean we shouldn't fight to preserve some sort of semblance of integrity.

I skimmed over some of the thread, but i didn't see anybody saying that.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 04:30 PM
Some people are so effin dense when it comes to this issue. With that type of thinking many people hire, promote and fire, sit on juries and make judgements. It's scary.
What? I'm dense because I think the ball was juiced? Way to be an *******, bro. :rolleyes:

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 04:32 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying into the idea that Brady ****ing Anderson hit 50 home runs because the seams on the ball were altered slightly.
The ball wasn't "altered" slightly.

For the third time, players are still taking PED's. Why aren't people hitting 70 home runs a year anymore?

WhiteSox5187
02-10-2013, 04:49 PM
The ball wasn't "altered" slightly.

For the third time, players are still taking PED's. Why aren't people hitting 70 home runs a year anymore?

Because the testing has been improved so much that guys can no longer inject themselves with drugs meant for horses. Guys are still using (and a lot of them are getting caught too) but they can't take the kind of steroids like stanozolol that make you look like in the incredible hulk anymore without getting caught.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 04:59 PM
Because the testing has been improved so much that guys can no longer inject themselves with drugs meant for horses. Guys are still using (and a lot of them are getting caught too) but they can't take the kind of steroids like stanozolol that make you look like in the incredible hulk anymore without getting caught.
I honestly don't believe that for a second.

WhiteSox5187
02-10-2013, 05:08 PM
I honestly don't believe that for a second.

You can choose what you want to believe but there is a lot of evidence to suggest a causal relationship between the implementation of steroid testing and the decline in the home run rate. I haven't heard or seen anything to suggest there is a difference in the way the ball is wound now that is different from how it was wound in 1998.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2013, 05:12 PM
You can choose what you want to believe but there is a lot of evidence to suggest a causal relationship between the implementation of steroid testing and the decline in the home run rate. I haven't heard or seen anything to suggest there is a difference in the way the ball is wound now that is different from how it was wound in 1998.
Stricter testing hasn't changed doping in football, boxing and mma. I don't believe it's the kinds of PED's. Obviously PED's have a made a difference, but I believe the ball was the biggest catalyst.

Bob Roarman
02-10-2013, 05:22 PM
What I don't understand is the stance that we should just accept it because it happens. It'll never be a 'pure' game and it never has been, but that don't mean we shouldn't fight to preserve some sort of semblance of integrity.

Ugh. Define integrity of baseball. Or of any game. Is it what an organization thinks of a substance where the tipping point of it's "acceptance" broke back in the 80s when it contributed to an embarrassment for the US on the world wide stage of the Olympics (Carl Lewis losing in '88)? Because that's where the seeds of this modern day moral panic of PEDs originated from. The Good Guy only lost because the bad guys cheated. So like a lot of solutions presented to us by any type of people in power, it's based on sensationalism and outrage off of an event which, in this case, ultimately makes them out to be hypocrites...

.....because years before that, Good Guy US doctors administered the now illegal steroid (which happened directly in response to what happened at the 88' Olympics) that is known as Dianabol to US weight lifters in order to compete with athletes from the USSR in the Olympics. It's just....no one likes to talk about that. And that's just one example that we know of. If you watch the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary "9.79" (about Carl Lewis' defeat by Johnson in those Olympics) you'll also see a part where one of the doctors that tested the Olympians decides to go back and re-test past Olympian's samples from years before. He said he kept getting positive results and just stopped, he didn't want to open a huge can of worms.

It is part of the competition, in damn never every competitive sport, all over the world. It is in the "fabric of baseball" as it is in the NFL and NBA and NHL. No doubt. Trying to get rid of it is futile, there will always be advancements, there's no way of keeping it out. Trying to do that arguably makes it more dangerous, has players taking more risks, unknowingly. The smart thing to do is educate athletes in these drugs, educate them on the risks, on how to properly use them if they decide to go that route. Do that or fight the half assed war against drugs which does more harm than good.

And again all this goes to another point that I keep stressing: We need to stop calling professional athletes heroes. That's the big thing in all this, the hero worship bull****. Sports can be an entertaining escapism, but you can't hold those people up as role models for life. It's a profession with it's own set of dangers and risks that need to be known about before diving into or considering a career in or even not seriously considering. Knowledge and education about it is never a bad thing. The sooner that it is learned, the better.

Lip Man 1
02-10-2013, 06:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8vh2MwXZ6o

Lip

mzh
02-10-2013, 06:16 PM
Ugh. Define integrity of baseball. Or of any game. Is it what an organization thinks of a substance where the tipping point of it's "acceptance" broke back in the 80s when it contributed to an embarrassment for the US on the world wide stage of the Olympics (Carl Lewis losing in '88)? Because that's where the seeds of this modern day moral panic of PEDs originated from. The Good Guy only lost because the bad guys cheated. So like a lot of solutions presented to us by any type of people in power, it's based on sensationalism and outrage off of an event which, in this case, ultimately makes them out to be hypocrites...

.....because years before that, Good Guy US doctors administered the now illegal steroid (which happened directly in response to what happened at the 88' Olympics) that is known as Dianabol to US weight lifters in order to compete with athletes from the USSR in the Olympics. It's just....no one likes to talk about that. And that's just one example that we know of. If you watch the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary "9.79" (about Carl Lewis' defeat by Johnson in those Olympics) you'll also see a part where one of the doctors that tested the Olympians decides to go back and re-test past Olympian's samples from years before. He said he kept getting positive results and just stopped, he didn't want to open a huge can of worms.

It is part of the competition, in damn never every competitive sport, all over the world. It is in the "fabric of baseball" as it is in the NFL and NBA and NHL. No doubt. Trying to get rid of it is futile, there will always be advancements, there's no way of keeping it out. Trying to do that arguably makes it more dangerous, has players taking more risks, unknowingly. The smart thing to do is educate athletes in these drugs, educate them on the risks, on how to properly use them if they decide to go that route. Do that or fight the half assed war against drugs which does more harm than good.

And again all this goes to another point that I keep stressing: We need to stop calling professional athletes heroes. That's the big thing in all this, the hero worship bull****. Sports can be an entertaining escapism, but you can't hold those people up as role models for life. It's a profession with it's own set of dangers and risks that need to be known about before diving into or considering a career in or even not seriously considering. Knowledge and education about it is never a bad thing. The sooner that it is learned, the better.
I'm not even going read this post. Go profess your philosophy about what we need to do as sports fans to a ****ing brick wall. I'm a baseball fan because I love baseball, and all I'm saying is that I would prefer a game in which players aren't OPENLY or blatantly cheating. Is that such an insult to your intelligence that it merits a 500 word diatribe of how full of **** I am? I roll my eyes every time every time I have to waste my time reading your holier than thou condescension. Go troll someplace else.

TDog
02-10-2013, 07:33 PM
Oh bull****. Come on, the 70s and 80s alone. Don't even have to go into the first rumblings of steroids around McGuire and all the backlash that got from fans and fellow journalists when he was first questioned. Those people were outcast who dared to do that. When will you stop believing this sanctity of the game act? People knew. Fans were more than happy to ignore it until it became unavoidable. Writers until it became a viable story.

People want a clean game. They want to believe they are following a clean game. It was difficult for people reach the conclusion that they weren't following a clean game. That does not mean they accepted a dirty game. It does not mean that they are hypocritical for wanting a clean game today and in the future.

You are operating with the benefit of hindsight and leaps of cynical and logical faulty reasoning.

Domeshot17
02-10-2013, 07:55 PM
Bob has a point, cheating has always been a big part of baseball. Spit Balls, Loading the ball up with vasoline and pine tar etc, corked bats, stealing signs, steroids, amphetamines, the wind direction in the twin dome, the black sox scandal etc etc etc. These are some major cheating links to baseball.

I don't like it. I played in college, and I heard some guys talk of taking steroids. The funny thing was there, I played small D3, good enough to hold my own, not good enough to play D1, thats a level of baseball where it should never happen. And it was not the best guys, it was the ones who barely belonged, who wanted to get better.

Bob Roarman
02-10-2013, 08:24 PM
People want a clean game. They want to believe they are following a clean game. It was difficult for people reach the conclusion that they weren't following a clean game. That does not mean they accepted a dirty game. It does not mean that they are hypocritical for wanting a clean game today and in the future.

You are operating with the benefit of hindsight and leaps of cynical and logical faulty reasoning.

You had doubles hitters batting 50 homers a year. It wasn't hard to see. Horrible excuse.

Bob Roarman
02-10-2013, 08:25 PM
I'm not even going read this post. Go profess your philosophy about what we need to do as sports fans to a ****ing brick wall. I'm a baseball fan because I love baseball, and all I'm saying is that I would prefer a game in which players aren't OPENLY or blatantly cheating. Is that such an insult to your intelligence that it merits a 500 word diatribe of how full of **** I am? I roll my eyes every time every time I have to waste my time reading your holier than thou condescension. Go troll someplace else.

The only real reason it's today seen as "cheating" is that once upon a time the US got butthurt about being outplayed at their own game and decided to make rules about it. I'm not saying you're full of **** or don't love baseball, you just don't know the history of this.

TDog
02-10-2013, 11:01 PM
You had doubles hitters batting 50 homers a year. It wasn't hard to see. Horrible excuse.

People, a lot of people assumed it was the baseball, as it was in the 1920s. MLB considered introducing a livlier ball in 1970 and experimented with it in some spring training games. Many people believed that baseball officials changed the ball without announcing the change. Others believed the change had more to do with production changes in the baseballs that were unintentional. Some believed the latter because the 1970 experimental X-15 ball would have produced more offense, and the increasing number of strikeous along with the increasing number of home runs showed that smaller parks and a greater emphasis on sacrificing contact for power played the biggest role in the power surge.

Fans and the media had plenty of reason not to believe the power surge was attributable to criminal illegal performance enhancing drugs.

Hendu
02-10-2013, 11:06 PM
You had doubles hitters batting 50 homers a year. It wasn't hard to see. Horrible excuse.

Yup, and when Jose Bautista jumps from 13 to 54 HRs at age 29, do we take out the pitchforks? No, we draft him to our fantasy team.

We know many of the players are still using prolifically. We know that only the dumb and sloppy players get caught. And we'll turn a blind eye as long as they don't make it obvious by bulking up too much or smashing records.

It's why people are still talking about Bonds, Sosa and McGwire in this thread when we should be talking about the 2011 and almost 2012 NL MVP who has now been linked to PEDs twice. And most baseball fans keep buying the excuses.

Hitmen77
02-22-2013, 11:40 AM
There are talks now that this may force A-Rod into retirement (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/a-done-alex-return-yankees-sources-article-1.1251858?localLinksEnabled=false). :o:

What a way to end what could have been the greatest career ever. What a scumbag. If this is how it actually ends, he'll have a stain at least as big as Barroid and Clemens going down the road.

The rise and fall of A-Rod:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/50877666/ns/sports-baseball/

shingo10
02-22-2013, 01:24 PM
The rise and fall of A-Rod:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/50877666/ns/sports-baseball/


Great article. Learned a lot about him that I never knew.