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View Full Version : White Sox... 3rd worst farm system in baseball


doublem23
01-28-2013, 04:53 PM
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2013/1/28/3925786/2013-baseball-farm-system-rankings

#28? HELL. YES.

:bandance:

L09qnRfZY-k

mzh
01-28-2013, 05:03 PM
:supernana: :supernana: :supernana:

blandman
01-28-2013, 05:55 PM
:happybday :clap:

Tragg
01-28-2013, 06:01 PM
Improvement.

delben91
01-28-2013, 06:26 PM
Interesting he put the Tigers at #30.

DumpJerry
01-28-2013, 06:54 PM
Well,the fact that so many crappy MLB teams have top-flight farm systems (according to this link) tells me how valid it is rating minor leaguers.

Moses_Scurry
01-28-2013, 07:07 PM
Hit on a couple draft picks this year, and they might crack the top 25!

shingo10
01-28-2013, 08:31 PM
Oh great, this again.

Didn't we have like 12 rookies pitch for us last year or something?

It's like when the experts pick the division winners at the start of the year...it's almost a blessing to be counted out.

doublem23
01-28-2013, 08:32 PM
Well,the fact that so many crappy MLB teams have top-flight farm systems (according to this link) tells me how valid it is rating minor leaguers.

Ignoring the fact that 2 of the top 3 teams on the list might arguably be the best teams in their respective leagues, what does having talent in the minors have to do with success at the Major League level in the short term?

SCCWS
01-28-2013, 09:37 PM
Good to see the Tigers down but it is somewhat concerning that the Twins seem to be rebuilding pretty quickly.

Daver
01-28-2013, 09:48 PM
Good to see the Tigers down but it is somewhat concerning that the Twins seem to be rebuilding pretty quickly.

The Twins don't rebuild, they are in a constant building state, they expect their draft picks to play MLB ball for them, and they develop from this standpoint.

DumpJerry
01-28-2013, 09:58 PM
Ignoring the fact that 2 of the top 3 teams on the list might arguably be the best teams in their respective leagues, what does having talent in the minors have to do with success at the Major League level in the short term?
Pirates, Padres, Cubs, Twins, Red Sox, and Marlins are in the top ten (60% of the top ten for those of you keeping score at home). All had losing seasons last year (if the Red Sox have such a great farm system, why did they not have the horses to replace the injured players?). I only ignored the cherry picking.

doublem23
01-28-2013, 10:08 PM
Pirates, Padres, Cubs, Twins, Red Sox, and Marlins are in the top ten (60% of the top ten for those of you keeping score at home). All had losing seasons last year (if the Red Sox have such a great farm system, why did they not have the horses to replace the injured players?). I only ignored the cherry picking.

Many of those teams you rattled off are new to the Top 10, though, but it still doesn't answer the question of what does having a good farm system have to do with Major League success? I don't get what correlation you're trying to make.

And, of course, just because the Red Sox have a nice stable of prospects doesn't mean they have a bevy of MLB ready guys. There are plenty of reasons why teams choose to be conservative with their minor league players developmentally and contractually. Ask Gordon Beckham how well it works when you get rushed to the Show.

DumpJerry
01-28-2013, 10:15 PM
Many of those teams you rattled off are new to the Top 10, though, but it still doesn't answer the question of what does having a good farm system have to do with Major League success? I don't get what correlation you're trying to make.
My point is that there is a very low correlation. That is why I think it is silly to get worked up over these highly subjective ratings, they are less indicative of future performance than an investment prospectus.

doublem23
01-28-2013, 10:22 PM
My point is that there is a very low correlation. That is why I think it is silly to get worked up over these highly subjective ratings, they are less indicative of future performance than an investment prospectus.

If you read the article posted you'd notice the author essentially agrees with you, saying that small differences are highly subjective (are the Cubs really #10 and Astros #11?) but that doesn't mean there aren't some CLEAR divisions in terms of talent pool and the Sox are still, sadly, lagging well behind the league. Nobody in their right mind would look at the talent the Rays have acquired and developed, for instance, and compare them to the White Sox's farm system and think it's still a coin flip between which system will pump out better players over the next 5-10 years.

But obviously the celebration in this thread is a bit in jest. The Sox farm system is still horrendously barren, and it is no comfort that the teams immediately surrounding us have recently had their systems depleted by graduations or big splash "win-now" trades that have worked and produced results at the MLB level. We're, unfortunately, devoid of talent all over the place.

DumpJerry
01-28-2013, 10:23 PM
If you read the article posted you'd notice the author essentially agrees with you, saying that small differences are highly subjective (are the Cubs really #10 and Astros #11?) but that doesn't mean there aren't some CLEAR divisions in terms of talent pool and the Sox are still, sadly, lagging well behind the league. Nobody in their right mind would look at the talent the Rays have acquired and developed, for instance, and compare them to the White Sox's farm system and think it's still a coin flip between which system will pump out better players over the next 5-10 years.

But obviously the celebration in this thread is a bit in jest. The Sox farm system is still horrendously barren, and it is no comfort that the teams immediately surrounding us have recently had their systems depleted by graduations or big splash "win-now" trades that have worked and produced results at the MLB level. We're, unfortunately, devoid of talent all over the place.
I skipped over the body and just looked at the rankings to see how silly they looked.

doublem23
01-28-2013, 10:25 PM
I skipped over the body and just looked at the rankings to see how silly they looked.

Well I'm sure your obviously much superior overall minor league system rankings will also be published by a nationally respected blog community any day now.

DumpJerry
01-28-2013, 10:30 PM
Well I'm sure your obviously much superior overall minor league system rankings will also be published by a nationally respected blog community any day now.
I ignore the minor leagues. The games aren't televised and even if they were, I would be too busy to watch enough of them to form an opinion. I don't rely on stat lines to tell who is good and who isn't, that is only part of the picture.

CoopaLoop
01-29-2013, 12:28 AM
Well,the fact that so many crappy MLB teams have top-flight farm systems (according to this link) tells me how valid it is rating minor leaguers.

lol three out of the top four are all playoff contenders.

And the Pirates are coming along pretty nicely.

doublem23
01-29-2013, 08:17 AM
I ignore the minor leagues. The games aren't televised and even if they were, I would be too busy to watch enough of them to form an opinion. I don't rely on stat lines to tell who is good and who isn't, that is only part of the picture.

You "ignore the minor leagues" yet account for over 30% of the posts in this thread.

Awesome. :thumbsup:

rdivaldi
01-29-2013, 09:29 AM
Ask Gordon Beckham how well it works when you get rushed to the Show.

I will.....right after you ask Bryce Harper and Chris Sale.

"Rushing players" is and will always continue to be an invalid argument...

doublem23
01-29-2013, 09:36 AM
I will.....right after you ask Bryce Harper and Chris Sale.

"Rushing players" is and will always continue to be an invalid argument...

The term "rushing" players doesn't have anything to do with time, it's based on a player's physical and mental ability to survive at the next level. Harper (who, by the way, has 2x the MiLB service time of Beckham) and Sale clearly could make it and were advance appropriately. But if your argument is that there's no such thing as moving players too quickly in the minors, well, that's 100% wrong, I don't know how to sugar coat it for you.

At any rate, the answer was to why the Red Sox, with a nice stable of lower level talent, would hesitate to call up a guy from A-ball to fill in in the Major Leagues.

rdivaldi
01-29-2013, 10:27 AM
The term "rushing" players doesn't have anything to do with time, it's based on a player's physical and mental ability to survive at the next level. Harper (who, by the way, has 2x the MiLB service time of Beckham) and Sale clearly could make it and were advance appropriately. But if your argument is that there's no such thing as moving players too quickly in the minors, well, that's 100% wrong, I don't know how to sugar coat it for you.

So if the person in charge of player development and GM of a baseball team think a player is ready for the major leagues, that's not good enough for you? At the time of Beckham's promotion he was hitting AAA pitching hard and really didn't have anything left to prove.

My point is that every individual player reacts differently to a major league promotion, whether they had 100 at bats in the minors or 1000. To say a player was "rushed" because they aren't hitting in the majors is a knee-jerk statement in my opinion.

It may just be that Beckham isn't a good hitter and no amount of minor league seasoning or major league coaching can change that.

SoxNation05
01-29-2013, 10:33 AM
Can anyone give me an explanation as to why Simon Castro is still highly regarded?

At one point he was one of SD's best pitching prospects but it seems he has fallen since then. Yes, I know our system is so weak and a high rating in our system is not much but even relative to prospects in our system I cannot see why he has been rated as high as #3 overall! He's 25 years old, he cannot keep anyone off the basepaths and secondary stuff is severely lacking. Can anyone counter an arguement to make a case for Castro?

DumpJerry
01-29-2013, 11:06 AM
You "ignore the minor leagues" yet account for over 30% of the posts in this thread.

Awesome. :thumbsup:
I'm not ignoring you, that's why. Have I weighed in with an opinion about specific players in the White Sox or another team's system? Nope. In fact, I can't recall having done so except maybe once or twice over the years.

I just sit back, strap it down and wait for the call ups.

dickallen15
01-29-2013, 11:17 AM
The good news is if the most important thing to be successful is to have your farm system ranked high, the Tigers are in bigger trouble than the Sox.

DumpJerry
01-29-2013, 11:23 AM
The good news is if the most important thing to be successful is to have your farm system ranked high, the Tigers are in bigger trouble than the Sox.
Only if free agency is banned.

kittle42
01-29-2013, 11:26 AM
So we can't talk about team strengths or possible finishes relative to each other until the games are played.

We shouldn't talk about the strength of minor league systems until prospects are called up.

Should we, in fact, talk about anything that may happen in the future?

SoxSpeed22
01-29-2013, 11:47 AM
The problem with those ratings is that most of the highest rated prospects are in the lower levels of the league and there really is no way to anticipate other stuff happening. The guys in AA and AAA are important to help out in case of injuries at the Major League level. That said, I am glad we jumped up to 28. We've been okay with pitchers so far.

DumpJerry
01-29-2013, 11:58 AM
So we can't talk about team strengths or possible finishes relative to each other until the games are played.

We shouldn't talk about the strength of minor league systems until prospects are called up.

Should we, in fact, talk about anything that may happen in the future?
No, you can speculate and talk all you want. I just don't have the time or inclination to study minor league players who have, at best, a 3% chance of playing in The Show. That's all.

WhiteSox5187
01-29-2013, 11:58 AM
I ignore the minor leagues. The games aren't televised and even if they were, I would be too busy to watch enough of them to form an opinion. I don't rely on stat lines to tell who is good and who isn't, that is only part of the picture.

That's the kind of attitude that can get you a job with the White Sox front office.

kittle42
01-29-2013, 12:19 PM
That's the kind of attitude that can get you a job with the White Sox front office.

Hey-oh!

kittle42
01-29-2013, 12:20 PM
No, you can speculate and talk all you want. I just don't have the time or inclination to study minor league players who have, at best, a 3% chance of playing in The Show. That's all.

That's fine - neither do I - but there are people who get paid to do that, and some are writers who analyze and report on it.

Methinks some folks (not necessarily you, Dump) would have much less of an issue with the entire analysis of minor league systems if the Sox were, say 3rd instead of near the bottom.

DumpJerry
01-29-2013, 12:23 PM
That's fine - neither do I - but there are people who get paid to do that, and some are writers who analyze and report on it.
That's fine. There are also people who report and analyze celebrity gossip. I don't begrudge them, either. I was only responding to Doub's miscomprehension of my earlier post.

doublem23
01-29-2013, 12:30 PM
No, you can speculate and talk all you want. I just don't have the time or inclination to study minor league players who have, at best, a 3% chance of playing in The Show. That's all.


The overall success rate of minor league players is indeed spectacularly low, but top ranked guys have a much, much, much higher chance to play in the Major Leagues.

Again, you're certainly spending a lot of time yakking about something you claim to not care about. :scratch:

That's fine. There are also people who report and analyze celebrity gossip. I don't begrudge them, either. I was only responding to Doub's miscomprehension of my earlier post.

And I am still dyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyying to hear what sort of connection you think there is between the complete state of a team's minor league system and their likelihood of success in 2013....

Lip Man 1
01-29-2013, 01:25 PM
Until the Sox start spending the amount of money need to really get good talent as well as develop it, they are going to be behind the eight ball. According to the numbers that Gonzo had in the Tribune, they spent the least amount of money in baseball over the last five years on the minor league talent.

Like my late father used to say, "you get what you pay for..."

This may change with Hahn in charge, he might take a more balanced appraoch to the entire major/minor league operation. We'll see.

Lip

DSpivack
01-29-2013, 01:48 PM
Until the Sox start spending the amount of money need to really get good talent as well as develop it, they are going to be behind the eight ball. According to the numbers that Gonzo had in the Tribune, they spent the least amount of money in baseball over the last five years on the minor league talent.

Like my late father used to say, "you get what you pay for..."

This may change with Hahn in charge, he might take a more balanced appraoch to the entire major/minor league operation. We'll see.

Lip
Not to mention the changes in the new CBA hopefully meaning the Sox do spend more than they have in the past on amateur talent, especially relative to other teams who can't spend as much as they used to.

SCCWS
01-29-2013, 02:20 PM
Pirates, Padres, Cubs, Twins, Red Sox, and Marlins are in the top ten (60% of the top ten for those of you keeping score at home). All had losing seasons last year (if the Red Sox have such a great farm system, why did they not have the horses to replace the injured players?). I only ignored the cherry picking.

Actually the Red Sox had extensive injuries last year. At one point, they had 4 outfielders on the DL. That was after they traded their top outfield prospect before the season in Josh Reddick for a closer and Ryan Sweeney. The closer, Andrew Bailey did not return till late summer from a spring injury and Sweeney started as the 4th outfielder and went down with an injury for an extended period as well. Tough to find that many replacements in the minors.
I see them a lot and they have been pretty successful in getting production when they call up a player. Now they do spend money at the AAA level by signing some ML vets to go along with their young prospects. Notice Theo contunued the same signing Lillibridge and McDonald to AAA contracts.

asindc
01-29-2013, 03:12 PM
Actually the Red Sox had extensive injuries last year. At one point, they had 4 outfielders on the DL. That was after they traded their top outfield prospect before the season in Josh Reddick for a closer and Ryan Sweeney. The closer, Andrew Bailey did not return till late summer from a spring injury and Sweeney started as the 4th outfielder and went down with an injury for an extended period as well. Tough to find that many replacements in the minors.
I see them a lot and they have been pretty successful in getting production when they call up a player. Now they do spend money at the AAA level by signing some ML vets to go along with their young prospects. Notice Theo contunued the same signing Lillibridge and McDonald to AAA contracts.

Can Reddick be said to have been a prospect at that point? He had played over half the season prior to the trade.

kittle42
01-29-2013, 03:14 PM
I would also like to point out that major league success has little bearing on whether the player in the minors *now* is considered a top/valuable prospect. Many a prospect perceived as great, but who sputtered out eventually, has been used to fetch a hefty ransom in trade talks.

We don't have any of those guys.

DumpJerry
01-29-2013, 04:32 PM
And I am still dyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyying to hear what sort of connection you think there is between the complete state of a team's minor league system and their likelihood of success in 2013....
Ok, for the last time: you and I are in agreement on this and have always been in this thread, why do you persist in arguing with me on this point?:?:

rdivaldi
01-29-2013, 04:45 PM
Not to mention the changes in the new CBA hopefully meaning the Sox do spend more than they have in the past on amateur talent, especially relative to other teams who can't spend as much as they used to.

This ^^

Last year's draft represented a dramatic shift in our philosophy which can be attributed to the changes in the CBA. With the playing field more even, I imagine that a lot of teams that traditionally do well in the draft because of their free spending will suffer. I look forward to players being drafted in the proper order for many years to come.

DirtySox
01-29-2013, 05:28 PM
Until the Sox start spending the amount of money need to really get good talent as well as develop it, they are going to be behind the eight ball. According to the numbers that Gonzo had in the Tribune, they spent the least amount of money in baseball over the last five years on the minor league talent.

Like my late father used to say, "you get what you pay for..."

This may change with Hahn in charge, he might take a more balanced appraoch to the entire major/minor league operation. We'll see.

Lip

The Sox spent their entire allocation last year under the new CBA. Can't do better than that with the new system.

Lip Man 1
01-29-2013, 06:21 PM
Dirty:

It's more than just spending on U.S. players.

It's spending on good coaches, it's spending on getting the best scouts (even if that means getting them from other organizations), it's spending on getting the minor league operations up to par with the way the Sox want it done. Have been to Great Falls for example and let's just say they need some work on the facilities. It means spending money on international talent that is not subject to draft specifications.

Lip

DSpivack
01-29-2013, 06:51 PM
Dirty:

It's more than just spending on U.S. players.

It's spending on good coaches, it's spending on getting the best scouts (even if that means getting them from other organizations), it's spending on getting the minor league operations up to par with the way the Sox want it done. Have been to Great Falls for example and let's just say they need some work on the facilities. It means spending money on international talent that is not subject to draft specifications.

Lip
I thought spending on international talent was also covered under the new CBA?

SoxSpeed22
01-29-2013, 07:29 PM
I thought spending on international talent was also covered under the new CBA?It is, by the amount that you can pay to sign international players. The worse teams get a higher cap to spend on signing international prospects.
I also agree with Lip that investing in more scouts and better facilities (both domestic and international) are something that the Sox can stand to improve upon. The Rangers were able to stock up on Dominican players thanks to their baseball academies. The Sox may not be able to do the same thing for a while, but I would like to see it. Paddy has done a very good job of cleaning up the mess that Wilder left, but there is still a lot there.
Just a speculation, but I wonder when teams will start investing in African countries.

DonnieDarko
01-29-2013, 07:47 PM
Just a speculation, but I wonder when teams will start investing in African countries.

I've heard of MLB teams investing in Europe, though I don't know what that's done to the overall talent pool yet. I'm more wondering if/when they'll invest more in Australia. I don't know how baseball profiles there, but I know that there is at least one or two guys in MLB (I think both of them relief pitchers) who played in Australia.

One of them is/was on the Mariners. I forget his name and I don't know if he's still in the league, but still.

doublem23
01-29-2013, 08:15 PM
One of them is/was on the Mariners. I forget his name and I don't know if he's still in the league, but still.

I believe you're thinking of Greg Halman who is no longer an active player on account of being dead.

Lip Man 1
01-29-2013, 08:23 PM
List of Aussie born MLB players. No listing for Greg Halman (although I don't know how old this list is)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/birthplace.php?loc=Australia

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
01-29-2013, 08:33 PM
It would seem to me that if an organization wanted to seek out an untapped area from which to develop talent, that organization would set up academies on the Indian subcontinent, given its massive population and the popularity of cricket. I had a Nepalese student who was a good cricket player. He had never previously held a baseball bat, but the first time we took him for a softball game, he was making solid contact and crushing massive frozen ropes and moon shots.

doublem23
01-29-2013, 08:41 PM
List of Aussie born MLB players. No listing for Greg Halman (although I don't know how old this list is)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/birthplace.php?loc=Australia

Lip

Oh, Halman is European. From the Netherlands, one of the more baseball-friendly European nations.

The only Australian player I can think of off the top of my head is Grant Balfour

Lip Man 1
01-29-2013, 10:35 PM
Dave Nillson (I think that's the correct spelling) made the All Star team a few times as a catcher / DH for MIlwaukee.

Lip

SoxNation05
01-30-2013, 09:43 AM
Courtney Hawkins came in at #68 on MLB.com's top 100 prospects.

They speak pretty highly on the kid. It's nice having a potential impact position player in the system. Besides Beckham's short stay in the minors I can't think of a solid position player that we have had in the minors. Dayan Viciedo, Brandon Allen and Chris Carter come to mind but I think Hawkins' overall potential trumps theirs.

doublem23
01-30-2013, 09:46 AM
Courtney Hawkins came in at #68 on MLB.com's top 100 prospects.

They speak pretty highly on the kid. It's nice having a potential impact position player in the system. Besides Beckham's short stay in the minors I can't think of a solid position player that we have had in the minors. Dayan Viciedo, Brandon Allen and Chris Carter come to mind but I think Hawkins' overall potential trumps theirs.

Chris Young was BA's #23 and #12 prospect in baseball in 2006 and 2007 respectively, but that was after the Sox had traded him to Arizona. Hawkins is, without a doubt, the best position prospect the Sox have had since Joe Crede.

EDIT - BA was in the BA Top 100 two consecutive seasons, as well, but I am confident that by the time he reaches Chicago*, Hawkins will have surpassed his pedigree.

* assuming he doesn't get traded

Konerko05
01-30-2013, 01:21 PM
Although not drafted by the White Sox, Tyler Flowers was BA's #60 prospect leading into the 2010 season. Not really sure what the White Sox did with his swing after that.

SoxNation05
01-30-2013, 02:00 PM
Chris Young was BA's #23 and #12 prospect in baseball in 2006 and 2007 respectively, but that was after the Sox had traded him to Arizona. Hawkins is, without a doubt, the best position prospect the Sox have had since Joe Crede.

EDIT - BA was in the BA Top 100 two consecutive seasons, as well, but I am confident that by the time he reaches Chicago*, Hawkins will have surpassed his pedigree.

* assuming he doesn't get traded
BA was #51 in '06 and #37 in '05 so you would be correct. Can't believe he was so highly guarded. There was not even a stint where he hit in the ML.

Crede was #94 in '02, #36 in '01 and #96 in '00
Although not drafted by the White Sox, Tyler Flowers was BA's #60 prospect leading into the 2010 season. Not really sure what the White Sox did with his swing after that.
Flowers got busted of PEDs shortly before the Sox acquired him.

blandman
01-30-2013, 02:37 PM
So if the person in charge of player development and GM of a baseball team think a player is ready for the major leagues, that's not good enough for you? At the time of Beckham's promotion he was hitting AAA pitching hard and really didn't have anything left to prove.

My point is that every individual player reacts differently to a major league promotion, whether they had 100 at bats in the minors or 1000. To say a player was "rushed" because they aren't hitting in the majors is a knee-jerk statement in my opinion.

It may just be that Beckham isn't a good hitter and no amount of minor league seasoning or major league coaching can change that.

Yes. And I think that's at the heart of what's been wrong about our system. Beckham has obvious issues with his swing that teams were of course going to exploit when they figured it out. My largest concern is that no one in our system - no scout, manager, general manager, director - recognized this and thought to deconstruct his swing. Or worse, they recognized the need for an acquisition and traded away the kids future for a quick fix and then expected him to "adjust" at the major league level with an approach that is exploitable at best. Anyway you cut it though, he was absolutely rushed to the big leagues.

blandman
01-30-2013, 02:48 PM
Flowers got busted of PEDs shortly before the Sox acquired him.

People always forget this, I'm glad you brought it up. When I hear the expectations from the team, I cringe because I know its based on things he did artificially.

rdivaldi
01-30-2013, 02:56 PM
Yes. And I think that's at the heart of what's been wrong about our system. Beckham has obvious issues with his swing that teams were of course going to exploit when they figured it out. My largest concern is that no one in our system - no scout, manager, general manager, director - recognized this and thought to deconstruct his swing. Or worse, they recognized the need for an acquisition and traded away the kids future for a quick fix and then expected him to "adjust" at the major league level with an approach that is exploitable at best. Anyway you cut it though, he was absolutely rushed to the big leagues.

This is all conjecture and hindsight. The only concern about Beckham going into his second year in the majors was about his defense. There was zero talk about possible issues with his swing. Everyone thought he would be able to hit the ball at the major league level after his first successful season. That goes for people in and outside of the organization.

Domeshot17
01-30-2013, 03:20 PM
This is all conjecture and hindsight. The only concern about Beckham going into his second year in the majors was about his defense. There was zero talk about possible issues with his swing. Everyone thought he would be able to hit the ball at the major league level after his first successful season. That goes for people in and outside of the organization.

That is only somewhat true. There has been plenty of concern by some since he was drafted that his swing and his hitch issues were going to be exposed by mlb pitching.

PorkChopExpress
01-30-2013, 04:49 PM
Flowers got busted of PEDs shortly before the Sox acquired him.

People always forget this, I'm glad you brought it up. When I hear the expectations from the team, I cringe because I know its based on things he did artificially.

First of all, Flowers was suspended back in 2006 (August). Sox acquired him in December 2008. That's not exactly "shortly before the Sox acquired him." Second, after 2006, assuming he was no longer using PED's his numbers (AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS) were:

2007 - .298/.378/.488/.866
2008 - .288/.427/.494/.921
2009 (AA-AAA) - .297/.423/.516/.939
2010 - .220/.334/.434/.768
2011 - .261/.390/.500/.890

He was a 20-year-old and had barely played professional ball before he was suspended, and assuming he's been clean following his suspension, I don't think his numbers since then can be considered artificial, and they look good. I would have high expectations based on them for his first season with regular playing time. In fact I do. I look forward to seeing what he can do for us this year.

Hitmen77
01-31-2013, 08:26 AM
That's the kind of attitude that can get you a job with the White Sox front office.

Pretty much.

That's fine - neither do I - but there are people who get paid to do that, and some are writers who analyze and report on it.

Methinks some folks (not necessarily you, Dump) would have much less of an issue with the entire analysis of minor league systems if the Sox were, say 3rd instead of near the bottom.

People wouldn't get worked up about subjective minor league analyses if the real-world outcome didn't closely match these rankings. People can say that the Sox being ranked #30 or #28 means nothing....but what does mean something is the very real result of the Sox haven't very little internal talent helping the team for quite a few years now.

If the only people who are allowed to discuss this problem are experts who have an inside knowledge of the minor leagues, then we may as well shut down this site.

Courtney Hawkins came in at #68 on MLB.com's top 100 prospects.

They speak pretty highly on the kid. It's nice having a potential impact position player in the system. Besides Beckham's short stay in the minors I can't think of a solid position player that we have had in the minors. Dayan Viciedo, Brandon Allen and Chris Carter come to mind but I think Hawkins' overall potential trumps theirs.

As far as I can recollect, the last position player that came through the Sox system who had reasonable success in the majors was Aaron Rowand.....and he was drafted by the Sox 15 years and first came up 12 years ago.

Chris Young has had some success in MLB. At least we got Javy Vazquez for him. Beckham has been underwhelming, but not a total bust. We'll see what Tyler Flowers does this year.

Of course, there's also Alexei and Viciedo from Cuba. That seems to be the one lone bright spot of getting talent from Latin America.

Dirty:

It's more than just spending on U.S. players.

It's spending on good coaches, it's spending on getting the best scouts (even if that means getting them from other organizations), it's spending on getting the minor league operations up to par with the way the Sox want it done. Have been to Great Falls for example and let's just say they need some work on the facilities. It means spending money on international talent that is not subject to draft specifications.

Lip

Agreed.

Hitmen77
01-31-2013, 08:27 AM
List of Aussie born MLB players. No listing for Greg Halman (although I don't know how old this list is)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/birthplace.php?loc=Australia

Lip

Shane Lindsay pitched in 4 games for the White Sox in 2011.

blandman
01-31-2013, 08:35 AM
This is all conjecture and hindsight. The only concern about Beckham going into his second year in the majors was about his defense. There was zero talk about possible issues with his swing. Everyone thought he would be able to hit the ball at the major league level after his first successful season. That goes for people in and outside of the organization.

There were people outside the organization after the draft who thought his upside wasn't even an everyday player, so I doubt half a season did much to dissuade that.

doublem23
01-31-2013, 08:47 AM
As far as I can recollect, the last position player that came through the Sox system who had reasonable success in the majors was Aaron Rowand.....and he was drafted by the Sox 15 years and first came up 12 years ago.

Pretty much. Rowand was drafted in the 1998, since then here's the entire list of position players the Sox have drafted, signed, and have gotten to the Majors. I'm excluding guys who were drafted but didn't sign and were drafted again later by other teams. This is THE ENTIRE LIST for the last 15 years in order of career WAR to this point. Players bolded are the ones who reached the Majors still with the Sox... May want to send women and small children into another room, boy, is this going to be ugly...

Chris Young - 2001 - 13.4 WAR
Mike Morse - 2000 - 5.1 WAR
Ryan Sweeney - 2003 - 5.0 WAR
Gordon Beckham - 2008 - 3.5 WAR
Chris Stewart - 2001 - 1.7 WAR
Jeremy Reed - 2002 - 1.1 WAR
Chris Getz - 2005 - 0.8 WAR
Brent Morel - 2008 - 0.5 WAR
Donny Lucy - 2004 - 0.1 WAR
Jordan Danks - 2008 - (0.2) WAR
Brian Anderson - 2003 - (0.6) WAR
Chris Carter - 2005 - (0.6) WAR
Brandon Allen - 2004 - (1.2) WAR
Josh Fields - 2004 - (1.4) WAR
Andy Gonzalez - 2001 - (1.9) WAR

asindc
01-31-2013, 09:45 AM
Pretty much. Rowand was drafted in the 1998, since then here's the entire list of position players the Sox have drafted, signed, and have gotten to the Majors. I'm excluding guys who were drafted but didn't sign and were drafted again later by other teams. This is THE ENTIRE LIST for the last 15 years in order of career WAR to this point. Players bolded are the ones who reached the Majors still with the Sox... May want to send women and small children into another room, boy, is this going to be ugly...
Chris Young - 2001 - 13.4 WAR
Mike Morse - 2000 - 5.1 WAR
Ryan Sweeney - 2003 - 5.0 WAR
Gordon Beckham - 2008 - 3.5 WAR
Chris Stewart - 2001 - 1.7 WAR
Jeremy Reed - 2002 - 1.1 WAR
Chris Getz - 2005 - 0.8 WAR
Brent Morel - 2008 - 0.5 WAR
Donny Lucy - 2004 - 0.1 WAR
Jordan Danks - 2008 - (0.2) WAR
Brian Anderson - 2003 - (0.6) WAR
Chris Carter - 2005 - (0.6) WAR
Brandon Allen - 2004 - (1.2) WAR
Josh Fields - 2004 - (1.4) WAR
Andy Gonzalez - 2001 - (1.9) WAR


I think that list reflects the Sox refusing to overpay in the draft. We will see within the next five years if that philopsophy was the primary reason why the Sox have such a sad failure rate when it comes to drafting and developing. I'm particularly interested in seeing in the short term how Jared Mitchell progresses, if at all.

SoxNation05
01-31-2013, 12:22 PM
Pretty much. Rowand was drafted in the 1998, since then here's the entire list of position players the Sox have drafted, signed, and have gotten to the Majors. I'm excluding guys who were drafted but didn't sign and were drafted again later by other teams. This is THE ENTIRE LIST for the last 15 years in order of career WAR to this point. Players bolded are the ones who reached the Majors still with the Sox... May want to send women and small children into another room, boy, is this going to be ugly...
Chris Young - 2001 - 13.4 WAR
Mike Morse - 2000 - 5.1 WAR
Ryan Sweeney - 2003 - 5.0 WAR
Gordon Beckham - 2008 - 3.5 WAR
Chris Stewart - 2001 - 1.7 WAR
Jeremy Reed - 2002 - 1.1 WAR
Chris Getz - 2005 - 0.8 WAR
Brent Morel - 2008 - 0.5 WAR
Donny Lucy - 2004 - 0.1 WAR
Jordan Danks - 2008 - (0.2) WAR
Brian Anderson - 2003 - (0.6) WAR
Chris Carter - 2005 - (0.6) WAR
Brandon Allen - 2004 - (1.2) WAR
Josh Fields - 2004 - (1.4) WAR
Andy Gonzalez - 2001 - (1.9) WAR


Wow.

Great post dub.

kittle42
01-31-2013, 12:51 PM
Wow.

Great post dub.

Waiting for someone to convince me that those failures haven't hurt the franchise.

shingo10
01-31-2013, 01:23 PM
Waiting for someone to convince me that those failures haven't hurt the franchise.


I surely won't convince anyone but just for the sake of conversation everyone who was in bold (minus Gonzales) did contribute to the team throughout the years and a lot of the ones that weren't in bold were used to acquire more valuable pieces (ie Reed in the deal for Garcia).

Not great but I'd venture to say its probably comparable to a lot of teams..maybe even good teams.

WhiteSox5187
01-31-2013, 01:31 PM
Pretty much. Rowand was drafted in the 1998, since then here's the entire list of position players the Sox have drafted, signed, and have gotten to the Majors. I'm excluding guys who were drafted but didn't sign and were drafted again later by other teams. This is THE ENTIRE LIST for the last 15 years in order of career WAR to this point. Players bolded are the ones who reached the Majors still with the Sox... May want to send women and small children into another room, boy, is this going to be ugly...

Chris Young - 2001 - 13.4 WAR
Mike Morse - 2000 - 5.1 WAR
Ryan Sweeney - 2003 - 5.0 WAR
Gordon Beckham - 2008 - 3.5 WAR
Chris Stewart - 2001 - 1.7 WAR
Jeremy Reed - 2002 - 1.1 WAR
Chris Getz - 2005 - 0.8 WAR
Brent Morel - 2008 - 0.5 WAR
Donny Lucy - 2004 - 0.1 WAR
Jordan Danks - 2008 - (0.2) WAR
Brian Anderson - 2003 - (0.6) WAR
Chris Carter - 2005 - (0.6) WAR
Brandon Allen - 2004 - (1.2) WAR
Josh Fields - 2004 - (1.4) WAR
Andy Gonzalez - 2001 - (1.9) WAR


I am not a big fan of WAR but how in God's name did Andy Gonzalez put up a WAR of even 1 let alone 1.9?!

doublem23
01-31-2013, 01:33 PM
I am not a big fan of WAR but how in God's name did Andy Gonzalez put up a WAR of even 1 let alone 1.9?!

His career WAR is actually -1.9, I was just using accounting format to help distinguish from the dashes I was using to break up the columns.

Given that he only played in 91 career games and had 257 career PA, racking up nearly -2 in WAR is a pretty impressive display of badness. That would translate into roughly a -4.5 WAR over the course of a full season and generally speaking, 4-5 WAR (in the positive direction) is reserved for All-Star caliber players.

Moral of the story: Andy Gonzalez sucks

Domeshot17
01-31-2013, 04:01 PM
Futhermore, lack of prospects hurts the ability to acquire MLB talent. For a baseball GM, Players are essentially a Zero-Sum Game. When you have nothing of value, you can rarely pick up anything of value. It is one thing to use the farm to trade for proven talent. Its another to ignore it completely.

kittle42
01-31-2013, 04:11 PM
Futhermore, lack of prospects hurts the ability to acquire MLB talent. For a baseball GM, Players are essentially a Zero-Sum Game. When you have nothing of value, you can rarely pick up anything of value. It is one thing to use the farm to trade for proven talent. Its another to ignore it completely.

This is the big thing, and much more important than a prospect actually panning out, in a sense. Minor league perception trumps major league production.

Domeshot17
01-31-2013, 04:29 PM
This is the big thing, and much more important than a prospect actually panning out, in a sense. Minor league perception trumps major league production.

Thats just it. Minor league prospects, top ones, don't get there by being a Jose Quintana or a Hector Santiago or a Brian Omogrosso. Guys who are MLB filler, who fill the 5th SP spot, or the Mop Up Bullpen role. Every team has those. Some have better years than others.

It is the pitchers with 2-3 major league pitches, out pitches, and hitters who have projectable power etc. Guys who have the potential to impact the game, those are what carry value.

If you notice, we haven't had that major trade over the last couple of years. We have had all these retread pick ups like Youklis and they have not been getting us to the playoffs. We have nothing other teams really covet anymore. That has to change.

Nutriaitch
01-31-2013, 06:52 PM
I'm particularly interested in seeing in the short term how Jared Mitchell progresses, if at all.


what's the latest on Mitchell?


he still has a lot of fans down this way.

shingo10
01-31-2013, 07:41 PM
Futhermore, lack of prospects hurts the ability to acquire MLB talent. For a baseball GM, Players are essentially a Zero-Sum Game. When you have nothing of value, you can rarely pick up anything of value. It is one thing to use the farm to trade for proven talent. Its another to ignore it completely.


This is why it always astounds me when people get all bent out of shape when the Sox trade "valuable" prospects to get established talent. The odds of trading away a superstar are pretty slim...in my opinion the worst deal KW did was the one for Swisher. We lost Gio. Other than that....haven't lost much major league talent in trades. For us to get some of the quality players we have gotten with guys who have amounted to nothing is a reflection of good maneuvering by KW. Peavy for three mediocre pitchers? Genius.

SoxNation05
01-31-2013, 09:39 PM
This is why it always astounds me when people get all bent out of shape when the Sox trade "valuable" prospects to get established talent. The odds of trading away a superstar are pretty slim...in my opinion the worst deal KW did was the one for Swisher. We lost Gio. Other than that....haven't lost much major league talent in trades. For us to get some of the quality players we have gotten with guys who have amounted to nothing is a reflection of good maneuvering by KW. Peavy for three mediocre pitchers? Genius.
Clayton Richard pitched pretty well in his 2 seasons prior to the last. It was in SD though.

Chris Young and Daniel Hudson are both good players that came from KW trades.

blandman
02-04-2013, 03:19 PM
Keith Law's ratings are up. He's got us 28 as well, though the Tigers are not on the bottom (he's got them 25).

sullythered
02-04-2013, 04:28 PM
Clayton Richard pitched pretty well in his 2 seasons prior to the last. It was in SD though.

Chris Young and Daniel Hudson are both good players that came from KW trades.

Clayton Richard would not make the current Sox rotation. Chris Young is decent (he's not much of a hitter), and the jury is still very much out on Hudson.

CoopaLoop
02-04-2013, 07:42 PM
Pretty much. Rowand was drafted in the 1998, since then here's the entire list of position players the Sox have drafted, signed, and have gotten to the Majors. I'm excluding guys who were drafted but didn't sign and were drafted again later by other teams. This is THE ENTIRE LIST for the last 15 years in order of career WAR to this point. Players bolded are the ones who reached the Majors still with the Sox... May want to send women and small children into another room, boy, is this going to be ugly...

Chris Young - 2001 - 13.4 WAR
Mike Morse - 2000 - 5.1 WAR
Ryan Sweeney - 2003 - 5.0 WAR
Gordon Beckham - 2008 - 3.5 WAR
Chris Stewart - 2001 - 1.7 WAR
Jeremy Reed - 2002 - 1.1 WAR
Chris Getz - 2005 - 0.8 WAR
Brent Morel - 2008 - 0.5 WAR
Donny Lucy - 2004 - 0.1 WAR
Jordan Danks - 2008 - (0.2) WAR
Brian Anderson - 2003 - (0.6) WAR
Chris Carter - 2005 - (0.6) WAR
Brandon Allen - 2004 - (1.2) WAR
Josh Fields - 2004 - (1.4) WAR
Andy Gonzalez - 2001 - (1.9) WAR



That is a really pathetic list. 15 major leaguers in 15 years, zero stars and only a couple of productive players.

Lip Man 1
02-04-2013, 10:37 PM
Coopa:

That's what happens when you draft based on "signability" and also to avoid dealing with agents you don't like.

Lip

SoxNation05
02-05-2013, 07:43 AM
Clayton Richard would not make the current Sox rotation. Chris Young is decent (he's not much of a hitter), and the jury is still very much out on Hudson.

That's your opinion.

rdivaldi
02-05-2013, 09:25 AM
That's your opinion.

And probably the same opinion of most scouts...

rdivaldi
02-05-2013, 09:27 AM
Keith Law's ratings are up. He's got us 28 as well, though the Tigers are not on the bottom (he's got them 25).

And now for my yearly rant...

"Keith Law sucks, his prospect ratings are good for toilet paper and not much else."

That is all.

blandman
02-05-2013, 12:29 PM
And now for my yearly rant...

"Keith Law sucks, his prospect ratings are good for toilet paper and not much else."

That is all.

I'm not really pro or against Law. He's got a different perspective on things. He doesn't rate at all based on how advanced guys are, caring more about ceiling and likelihood of projections versus what's closer to usable.

I know a lot of White Sox fans despise him, but its not like everything horrible he's said about our system and prospects isn't 100% true...

FWIW, he's got Hawkins at 74 on his top 100 list.

Domeshot17
02-05-2013, 01:06 PM
I also do not have a big problem with Law. Law is not ever on the Sox side, but he also has not been very wrong about Sox prospects. Big Ceiling, future star like players have not come up through the Sox Farm (sans Chris Sale who got about 2 cups of Coffee and a Donut in the minors). Bland is right that Law ranks based on the likelihood of being great, not being useful. That is why guys like Santiago, Quintana etc. don't really count in these rankings. A lot of teams get back end rotation, fill in lineup, bullpen contributions from these fringe types.

Law ranked Hawkins 74 in his Top 100, which was good, and Carlos Sanchez got some praise in his "10 that just missed". He writes with Sanchez that he doesn't see the defensive tools to be an everyday SS. He thinks he will hit .300, but lack the power/offensive ability to be a great 2b. Kind of sounds like he projects him to be a .300 hitter but with a low .700 OPS. Kind of a 8-9 hitter.

Hitmen77
02-05-2013, 01:46 PM
Pretty much. Rowand was drafted in the 1998, since then here's the entire list of position players the Sox have drafted, signed, and have gotten to the Majors. I'm excluding guys who were drafted but didn't sign and were drafted again later by other teams. This is THE ENTIRE LIST for the last 15 years in order of career WAR to this point. Players bolded are the ones who reached the Majors still with the Sox... May want to send women and small children into another room, boy, is this going to be ugly...

Chris Young - 2001 - 13.4 WAR
Mike Morse - 2000 - 5.1 WAR
Ryan Sweeney - 2003 - 5.0 WAR
Gordon Beckham - 2008 - 3.5 WAR
Chris Stewart - 2001 - 1.7 WAR
Jeremy Reed - 2002 - 1.1 WAR
Chris Getz - 2005 - 0.8 WAR
Brent Morel - 2008 - 0.5 WAR
Donny Lucy - 2004 - 0.1 WAR
Jordan Danks - 2008 - (0.2) WAR
Brian Anderson - 2003 - (0.6) WAR
Chris Carter - 2005 - (0.6) WAR
Brandon Allen - 2004 - (1.2) WAR
Josh Fields - 2004 - (1.4) WAR
Andy Gonzalez - 2001 - (1.9) WAR



Ouch.

Waiting for someone to convince me that those failures haven't hurt the franchise.

No kidding. I'm actually surprised no one has made that argument yet.

SoxNation05
02-05-2013, 05:20 PM
And probably the same opinion of most scouts...

If the Sox had Clayton Richard (in his current form and considering his last three years) he would be in the starting rotating over Quintana and Santiagio. Or Floyd would have been traded. Either way, he has a much better track record than Quintana and Santiago has started what, a handful of games... if that?

blandman
02-05-2013, 05:47 PM
If the Sox had Clayton Richard (in his current form and considering his last three years) he would be in the starting rotating over Quintana and Santiagio. Or Floyd would have been traded. Either way, he has a much better track record than Quintana and Santiago has started what, a handful of games... if that?

PEAVY wouldn't be on the sox if we had Clayton. What exactly are you arguing? That Clayton is better than Peavy? That's a tough sell.

Lip Man 1
02-05-2013, 06:20 PM
SoxNation05:

When Clayton was with the Sox his ERA was around five and he usually couldn't make it out of the 6th inning.

Maybe he would have gotten better, but I don't think so.

He was 'mediocrity defined' with the Sox, pitching against stacked A.L. batting orders. let's not forget that either.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
02-05-2013, 06:59 PM
SoxNation05:

When Clayton was with the Sox his ERA was around five and he usually couldn't make it out of the 6th inning.

Maybe he would have gotten better, but I don't think so.

He was 'mediocrity defined' with the Sox, pitching against stacked A.L. batting orders. let's not forget that either.

Lip

Any pitcher helps his stats pitching home games in Petco, with the deep gap fences, sea-level altitude, cool and dry air, and lack of DH in the NL. Petco helped Peavy and it helps Clayton Richard.

DSpivack
02-05-2013, 07:03 PM
Any pitcher helps his stats pitching home games in Petco, with the deep gap fences, sea-level altitude, cool and dry air, and lack of DH in the NL. Petco helped Peavy and it helps Clayton Richard.

Richard's 2012:
Home: 3.02 ERA, 1.101 WHIP
Away: 4.74 ERA, 1.338 WHIP

CoopaLoop
02-05-2013, 07:32 PM
Coopa:

That's what happens when you draft based on "signability" and also to avoid dealing with agents you don't like.

Lip

Agreed.

Hopefully last year was the beginning of a turn around.

CoopaLoop
02-05-2013, 07:33 PM
I also do not have a big problem with Law. Law is not ever on the Sox side, but he also has not been very wrong about Sox prospects. Big Ceiling, future star like players have not come up through the Sox Farm (sans Chris Sale who got about 2 cups of Coffee and a Donut in the minors). Bland is right that Law ranks based on the likelihood of being great, not being useful. That is why guys like Santiago, Quintana etc. don't really count in these rankings. A lot of teams get back end rotation, fill in lineup, bullpen contributions from these fringe types.

Law ranked Hawkins 74 in his Top 100, which was good, and Carlos Sanchez got some praise in his "10 that just missed". He writes with Sanchez that he doesn't see the defensive tools to be an everyday SS. He thinks he will hit .300, but lack the power/offensive ability to be a great 2b. Kind of sounds like he projects him to be a .300 hitter but with a low .700 OPS. Kind of a 8-9 hitter.

I think Law is one of the best if you can deal with his snarky bit. It is a bit he does.

rdivaldi
02-05-2013, 10:38 PM
Agreed.

Hopefully last year was the beginning of a turn around.

With the current CBA in place, the right players will be drafted in the right place....at least until someone finds a loophole and Boras starts exploiting it. But until that day comes, the Sox will have no excuses to not go after the top talent when available.

Domeshot17
02-05-2013, 10:47 PM
With the current CBA in place, the right players will be drafted in the right place....at least until someone finds a loophole and Boras starts exploiting it. But until that day comes, the Sox will have no excuses to not go after the top talent when available.

Well, to be fair, this system actually forces teams to be more prepared, so it is not really a level playing field. You just can't throw money at guys anymore. That said, you have the ability to be really creative with money and spend less early to spend more later. Teams who just pick guys to sign in at slot and don't use money strategically tend to get hammered more by the scouts who write for websites and such (and not just ESPN, but a bunch of them).

rdivaldi
02-06-2013, 09:44 AM
Well, to be fair, this system actually forces teams to be more prepared, so it is not really a level playing field.

You mean it actually forces them to scout? :wink:

Domeshot17
02-06-2013, 12:20 PM
You mean it actually forces them to scout? :wink:

Well scout and have a plan. I.E. they are not actually penalized from going over slot they are penalized for going over budget. So if they know they can get a round 2 talent to sign a little cheaper in round 2 and the same in round 3 but then in Round 4 will have flex to go over budget and sign a first rounder who fell, that is huge.

SoxNation05
02-06-2013, 03:32 PM
PEAVY wouldn't be on the sox if we had Clayton. What exactly are you arguing? That Clayton is better than Peavy? That's a tough sell.

My god. Nowhere in any of my posts did I even insinuate or let alone mention Peavy's name. Only you could take what I say and run off on a complete tangent like that. I was speaking completely hypothetical, in the scenario Richard would magically land on the roster. Basically, if the Sox had to chose between Richard, Quintana and Santiago for the fifth rotation spot they would choose Richard because of his history. Either that or they would trade Floyd and have two of the Richard/Quintana/Santiago group.

SoxNation05
02-06-2013, 03:37 PM
[QUOTE=Lip Man 1;3023823]SoxNation05:

When Clayton was with the Sox his ERA was around five and he usually couldn't make it out of the 6th inning.

Maybe he would have gotten better, but I don't think so.

He was 'mediocrity defined' with the Sox, pitching against stacked A.L. batting orders. let's not forget that either.

Lip[/QUOTE/]

I watched all of that and I acknowledge that but Richard ha been servicable his last three years. Yes, it was in SD but for at least the beginning of the year that would give him the nod over less experienced starters Quintana and Santiago.

Regardless, I think the Sox know you need to have deep starting pitching and would welcome the depth.

pearso66
02-07-2013, 03:18 PM
My god. Nowhere in any of my posts did I even insinuate or let alone mention Peavy's name. Only you could take what I say and run off on a complete tangent like that. I was speaking completely hypothetical, in the scenario Richard would magically land on the roster. Basically, if the Sox had to chose between Richard, Quintana and Santiago for the fifth rotation spot they would choose Richard because of his history. Either that or they would trade Floyd and have two of the Richard/Quintana/Santiago group.

I think the point he was making was the Sox traded Richard for Peavy, so in order to have Richard in the rotation Peavy wouldn't be there. So basically the Sox would be in the same position they are now, except would have Richard instead of Peavy, which in turn would make the rotation worse. I know you were speaking hypothetical, but realistically, this is what would have happened.

blandman
02-07-2013, 11:49 PM
My god. Nowhere in any of my posts did I even insinuate or let alone mention Peavy's name. Only you could take what I say and run off on a complete tangent like that. I was speaking completely hypothetical, in the scenario Richard would magically land on the roster. Basically, if the Sox had to chose between Richard, Quintana and Santiago for the fifth rotation spot they would choose Richard because of his history. Either that or they would trade Floyd and have two of the Richard/Quintana/Santiago group.

Before you fly off the handle and attack me, keep in mind the point was made because Clayton was traded for Peavy. So Peavy wouldn't be here. And he's certainly better than Clayton. Which is why whatever point your trying to make doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

rdivaldi
02-08-2013, 12:29 AM
Well scout and have a plan. I.E. they are not actually penalized from going over slot they are penalized for going over budget. So if they know they can get a round 2 talent to sign a little cheaper in round 2 and the same in round 3 but then in Round 4 will have flex to go over budget and sign a first rounder who fell, that is huge.

Right, the "take a bunch of cheap college seniors" strategy that most of the teams were using. But still, this doesn't sway the talent like the previous system. You can't toss millions at a player taken in the 10th round, so guys like Hunter Virant opted to go to college instead.

They'll continue to try and manipulate the rules, but this system gives us a much better shot.

DirtySox
02-11-2013, 06:47 PM
Posting this SSS larry piece. Great read, some great quotes. I'm optimistic for the future of the minor league system.

Marco Paddy Puts White Sox Latin Operations Back on Track (http://www.southsidesox.com/minors/2013/2/11/3975340/marco-paddy-puts-white-sox-latin-american-operations-back-on-track)

rdivaldi
02-12-2013, 01:05 PM
Posting this SSS larry piece. Great read, some great quotes. I'm optimistic for the future of the minor league system.

Marco Paddy Puts White Sox Latin Operations Back on Track (http://www.southsidesox.com/minors/2013/2/11/3975340/marco-paddy-puts-white-sox-latin-american-operations-back-on-track)


Super piece, a must read.

One of my favorite parts:

"Silverio, after a halting start to his pro career, has climbed the White Sox' organizational ladder, reaching High-A in 2012. Baseball America ranked him as the No. 31 prospect in the organization in their 2013 rankings; in their 2008 rankings, without having played pro ball, the outlet ranked him No. 7 and said he possessed the best infield arm. Phil Rogers and BA were taken along for the ride with the White Sox."

Deadguy
02-16-2013, 12:01 PM
http://milbprospective.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/prospect-qa-whitesox-outfielder-chawkins10-on-his-breakout-first-summer-in-pro-ball-other-stuff/

Courtney is up to 235 lbs! That's incredible size for a CF, but I guess he could be moved to a corner spot if he outgrows the spot.

The best part about Courtney is that he isn't the project that guys like Jared, Trayce, and to some degree Walker are/were. He's played baseball year round for so long that he is fairly polished. High School baseball is huge in Corpus Cristi, as some games get 7,000+ :o:

Not that I expect to see Hawkins in the Majors in the next few seasons, but he will and has had a smoother transition to professional baseball than some of our more recent position players that were high draft picks.

DSpivack
02-16-2013, 01:03 PM
http://milbprospective.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/prospect-qa-whitesox-outfielder-chawkins10-on-his-breakout-first-summer-in-pro-ball-other-stuff/

Courtney is up to 235 lbs! That's incredible size for a CF, but I guess he could be moved to a corner spot if he outgrows the spot.

The best part about Courtney is that he isn't the project that guys like Jared, Trayce, and to some degree Walker are/were. He's played baseball year round for so long that he is fairly polished. High School baseball is huge in Corpus Cristi, as some games get 7,000+ :o:

Not that I expect to see Hawkins in the Majors in the next few seasons, but he will and has had a smoother transition to professional baseball than some of our more recent position players that were high draft picks.

I thought he was a corner OF to begin with.

Deadguy
02-16-2013, 01:09 PM
I thought he was a corner OF to begin with.

?

He played 53 games in CF last year:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=hawkin000cou

rdivaldi
02-16-2013, 04:16 PM
I thought he was a corner OF to begin with.

His power projects to a corner OF, but his athleticism is suited to CF. Kid is a freak.

DirtySox
02-16-2013, 04:20 PM
His power projects to a corner OF, but his athleticism is suited to CF. Kid is a freak.

From all I've read, his final defensive destination will be in a corner OF spot.

rdivaldi
02-16-2013, 04:27 PM
From all I've read, his final defensive destination will be in a corner OF spot.

You never know, but yeah, people are talking RF because of his gun.

mahagga73
02-16-2013, 07:12 PM
Many of those teams you rattled off are new to the Top 10, though, but it still doesn't answer the question of what does having a good farm system have to do with Major League success? I don't get what correlation you're trying to make.

And, of course, just because the Red Sox have a nice stable of prospects doesn't mean they have a bevy of MLB ready guys. There are plenty of reasons why teams choose to be conservative with their minor league players developmentally and contractually. Ask Gordon Beckham how well it works when you get rushed to the Show.
If you are a higher payroll team having a good bevy of prospects can be a huge advantage. Need that player to put you over the top, trade a lower payroll team a couple prospects that wouldn't make your team anyway. If your a lower payroll team you better have a good farm system . No margin for error. In my opinion, the Sox farm system probably has cost them a couple playoff spots over recent history. Top heavy, and no depth on the bench or players ready to come up and make an impact. When the Sox need players other than starters to fill in at a high level or come in and play to rest starters, it doesn't happen. The value of having good players ready to play that don't cost that much is huge. Someone who reads Baseball Prospectus should know all this.:D:

SoxNation05
02-18-2013, 12:01 AM
Can anyone who is well read on the Sox system provide any potential break out players this year? Any picks past the first couple rounds that may surprise us?

I like what I have seen from Joey DeMichele. Chris Beck was supposed to have decent potential right?

DirtySox
02-18-2013, 02:19 PM
Chris Beck was supposed to have decent potential right?

Yep. He was largely considered a top 10 pick at the beginning of the year predraft. Supposedly he bulked up too much and it significantly effected his mechanics and performance.

SoxNation05
02-18-2013, 09:13 PM
Yep. He was largely considered a top 10 pick at the beginning of the year predraft. Supposedly he bulked up too much and it significantly effected his mechanics and performance.

I have read that he is gaining back some of the flexibility that had hindered his sucess last year at Gerogia Southern. I am hoping he can get back to his highly touted level and even improve from there. IMO, Beck and maybe Olacio (significantly smaller chance) are the only pitchers who could eventually grow into a top half of the rotation starter. I hope Beck has a good year and breaks through threshold of Johnsons and Snodgresssssss of the world.

Domeshot17
02-25-2013, 07:02 PM
Have a friend who scouts for ESPN and runs the website prospectinsider with Jason Churchill. He told me Beck was interesting, stock had fallen, he sees him as a high floor guy, but doesnt have the stuff to break the top half of the rotation, but would not shock to be a decent 3-5 man.

doublem23
03-03-2013, 11:01 PM
Didn't see this posted anywhere, but this list has been out for about a week and HEY, we have a BA Top 100 Prospect again...

#55 Courtney Hawkins

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2013/2614739.html

mahagga73
04-13-2013, 05:53 PM
Pretty much. Rowand was drafted in the 1998, since then here's the entire list of position players the Sox have drafted, signed, and have gotten to the Majors. I'm excluding guys who were drafted but didn't sign and were drafted again later by other teams. This is THE ENTIRE LIST for the last 15 years in order of career WAR to this point. Players bolded are the ones who reached the Majors still with the Sox... May want to send women and small children into another room, boy, is this going to be ugly...
Chris Young - 2001 - 13.4 WAR
Mike Morse - 2000 - 5.1 WAR
Ryan Sweeney - 2003 - 5.0 WAR
Gordon Beckham - 2008 - 3.5 WAR
Chris Stewart - 2001 - 1.7 WAR
Jeremy Reed - 2002 - 1.1 WAR
Chris Getz - 2005 - 0.8 WAR
Brent Morel - 2008 - 0.5 WAR
Donny Lucy - 2004 - 0.1 WAR
Jordan Danks - 2008 - (0.2) WAR
Brian Anderson - 2003 - (0.6) WAR
Chris Carter - 2005 - (0.6) WAR
Brandon Allen - 2004 - (1.2) WAR
Josh Fields - 2004 - (1.4) WAR
Andy Gonzalez - 2001 - (1.9) WAR

I kind of thought maybe they gave up on Josh Fields too early. Just my opinion.