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Viva Medias B's
01-24-2013, 08:51 PM
Stuart Sternberg, the owner of the Tampa Bay Rays, said today the Major League Baseball no longer believes in the viability of having a franchise there. I have always said that the Rays should be in Orlando. I think that's a better market for sports, and the Rays would draw better there.

Link (http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/article1272064.ece)

LITTLE NELL
01-24-2013, 09:15 PM
The Bay Area will lose the Rays unless the stubborn mayor of St. Pete does what's best for the area and let's the Rays out of the lease at the Trop.
Team should be relocated near downtown Tampa.
Not sure if Orlando is a good alternative, metro area has only 1,500,000 people while Tampa Bay is at 2,500,000.

WhiteSox5187
01-24-2013, 09:27 PM
The Bay Area will lose the Rays unless the stubborn mayor of St. Pete does what's best for the area and let's the Rays out of the lease at the Trop.
Team should be relocated near downtown Tampa.
Not sure if Orlando is a good alternative, metro area has only 1,500,000 people while Tampa Bay is at 2,500,000.

Why would the mayor do that? He holds all the cards and if he lets the Rays out of their lease they will lose them anyway. It seems to me that baseball in Florida just doesn't work.

LITTLE NELL
01-24-2013, 09:37 PM
Why would the mayor do that? He holds all the cards and if he lets the Rays out of their lease they will lose them anyway. It seems to me that baseball in Florida just doesn't work.

Because maybe he would not like being remembered as the guy who was responsible for the loss of the Rays for the area. He needs to do the right thing.

CoopaLoop
01-24-2013, 10:13 PM
Florida sucks. Get em all out of there.

WhiteSox5187
01-24-2013, 10:14 PM
Because maybe he would not like being remembered as the guy who was responsible for the loss of the Rays for the area. He needs to do the right thing.

If he lets the Rays out of their lease they would probably bolt anyways.

kittle42
01-24-2013, 10:49 PM
Florida sucks. Get em all out of there.

They should let the state float away.

LoveYourSuit
01-24-2013, 10:57 PM
The Bay Area will lose the Rays unless the stubborn mayor of St. Pete does what's best for the area and let's the Rays out of the lease at the Trop.
Team should be relocated near downtown Tampa.
Not sure if Orlando is a good alternative, metro area has only 1,500,000 people while Tampa Bay is at 2,500,000.


Would the Orlando tourist factor help make up for the population difference?

Brian26
01-24-2013, 11:20 PM
It seems to me that baseball in Florida just doesn't work.

Pretty much this. We heard the same story in Miami. They built a multi-million dollar facility in the "better location", and they still couldn't draw. Shut the state down after Spring Training and move these two teams to cities that will appreciate them.

mrfourni
01-24-2013, 11:42 PM
Where are they going to go? Is there a city out there that will publicly finance a $700m-$1b stadium anymore?

chicagowhitesox1
01-25-2013, 12:25 AM
I think New York would be the best place to locate a new team. I seriously doubt the Rays would get fans even if they moved to downtown Tampa. It didn't help the Marlins.

RKMeibalane
01-25-2013, 12:46 AM
I think New York would be the best place to locate a new team. I seriously doubt the Rays would get fans even if they moved to downtown Tampa. It didn't help the Marlins.

A team in Brooklyn or Manhattan would work.

Montreal deserves a team, as well. Loria **** all over that city and its fans, who were robbed of a likely World Series appearance in 1994 due to the incompetence of Selig and Fehr, and was then allowed to buy the Marlins- again a result of Selig's incompetence- whom he has ruined perhaps beyond repair.

RKMeibalane
01-25-2013, 12:47 AM
They should let the state float away.

That's not a bad idea, actually. It would be nice having LeBron and Wade out of the country permanently.

cards press box
01-25-2013, 12:47 AM
I think New York would be the best place to locate a new team. I seriously doubt the Rays would get fans even if they moved to downtown Tampa. It didn't help the Marlins.

How does the Brooklyn Rays sound? And perhaps a baseball stadium could be built near the Barclays Center which, ironically enough is located at the very spot that Walter O'Malley wanted for a new stadium for the Dodgers in the 1950's -- a location at Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues in Brooklyn right near a station for the Long Island railroad. The New York Islanders will join the Nets at the Barclays Center within the next two years. Why shouldn't the Rays join them?

And while the damn Yankees would scream like spoiled brat about the whole concept, can you imagine how fun and appealing (and probably lucrative) a New York/Brooklyn rivalry in baseball would be?

RKMeibalane
01-25-2013, 12:54 AM
How does the Brooklyn Rays sound? And perhaps a baseball stadium could be built near the Barclays Center which, ironically enough is located at the very spot that Walter O'Malley wanted for a new stadium for the Dodgers in the 1950's -- a location at Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues in Brooklyn right near a station for the Long Island railroad. The New York Islanders will join the Nets at the Barclays Center within the next two years. Why shouldn't the Rays join them?

And while the damn Yankees would scream like spoiled brat about the whole concept, can you imagine how fun and appealing (and probably lucrative) a New York/Brooklyn rivalry in baseball would be?

Brooklyn Rays isn't bad, though it has the same "out of place" feel as the Los Angeles Lakers or Utah Jazz. The Mets have a minor league affiliate in Brooklyn called the Cyclones, presumably due to their playing in the Coney Island area, where the famous Cyclone roller-coaster is located.

chicagowhitesox1
01-25-2013, 02:50 AM
The Brooklyn Cyclones would be a pretty cool name. I just have to wonder what the uniforms would look like. Maybe they could go back to Brooklyns roots and call themselves either the Trolleys, Bridesgrooms, Superbas or the Robins.

After reading about this subject in a different forum I'm thinking Sacramento might have a good shot at a team too. Although I think the A's would be better suited there. The A's are already used to moving alot.

WhiteSox5187
01-25-2013, 02:56 AM
If Tampa moves I think the best city for them to move to would be Montreal. I think they are in the top ten TV markets in North America and because the Rays are in the AL East they have two big markets coming to Montreal to make road trips in New York and Boston and a natural rival in Toronto. There is also a major league stadium (granted, a crappy one) already in the city that can be used while a new one is constructed. I am not sure what the financial situation is in Montreal or Quebec province but it is possible that they might have enough money to contribute some money for a new stadium as well. I would just hope that Bud does right and gives the Rays the naming rights and history to the Expos.

chicagowhitesox1
01-25-2013, 03:06 AM
If Tampa moves I think the best city for them to move to would be Montreal. I think they are in the top ten TV markets in North America and because the Rays are in the AL East they have two big markets coming to Montreal to make road trips in New York and Boston and a natural rival in Toronto. There is also a major league stadium (granted, a crappy one) already in the city that can be used while a new one is constructed. I am not sure what the financial situation is in Montreal or Quebec province but it is possible that they might have enough money to contribute some money for a new stadium as well. I would just hope that Bud does right and gives the Rays the naming rights and history to the Expos.

I would like to see Montreal get a team back and your right it does make sense with the rivalrys. The idea I really like is that the Expos get back their franchise history from the Nationals. Then you could give the city of Washington their team history from the Twins. I don't think the Twins even care about their history in Washington, nor should they care. I doubt too many Arizona Cardinals fans care about the old Chicago Cardinals so why would a Twin fan care about the old Senators.

soxfanatlanta
01-25-2013, 06:41 AM
Would the Orlando tourist factor help make up for the population difference?

No.

(I did nothing for Miami)

johnnyg83
01-25-2013, 08:11 AM
No.

(I did nothing for Miami)

So definitive.

I'd argue miami and Orlando get very different types of tourists ... Euro trash, posers and seniors vs. families.

soxfanatlanta
01-25-2013, 08:17 AM
So definitive.

I'd argue miami and Orlando get very different types of tourists ... Euro trash, posers and seniors vs. families.

Fair enough, but think about it this way: would you, after spending all day in the Orlando heat and humidity at the various theme parks, want to spend another three hours at a ballgame?

Nope, not gonna happen.

LITTLE NELL
01-25-2013, 08:25 AM
Would the Orlando tourist factor help make up for the population difference?

Not that much, too many things going on at all the parks even at night.

SI1020
01-25-2013, 08:29 AM
They should let the state float away. I like Florida. A lot as a matter of fact. I prefer Sarasota and the Keys. I wish the Sox still did spring training in Sarasota. On the matter at hand yes it does appear that for a variety of reasons baseball does not work in Florida outside of spring training.

johnnyg83
01-25-2013, 08:32 AM
So definitive.

I'd argue miami and Orlando get very different types of tourists ... Euro trash, posers and seniors vs. families.

Agreed.

But as a dad, I may carve one day out of a week to do non-theme park activities... That include baseball.

Red Barchetta
01-25-2013, 08:38 AM
We moved to the Sarasota area in 2005 and love it however I have to agree that the Tampa/St. Pete/Clearwater area (largest combined metropolitan area in Florida) can't seem to support MLB and are also having serious problems with the NFL as well. Ironically, the NHL is doing well (Lightning).

I tend to watch the Bears game at a local watering hole and the past few seasons there have been many Bucs fans watching the games because of the local home game blackouts. I remember one Bucs fans sharing his displeasure about how so many people still remain fans of the teams they rooted for before moving to Florida. I asked him why so many Bucs "fans" don't attend the games since there are so many available seats? Bears, Packers, Giants, Steelers, etc. sell out when it's 5 degrees and the Bucs can't sell out when it's 70 degrees?!

The same thing with the Rays. When the SOX played them in the ALDS a few years ago, I went to all the games at the Trop and suffered through the cowbell rage. I actually saw some Rays fans wearing team jerseys with the price tags still attached! :rolleyes: I also had a nice spirited discussion with one lady who's mouth was as loud as her cowbell and was laughing when she couldn't answer my question by naming five other Rays players besides Evan Longoria.

I don't think Tampa Bay area deserves the Rays. I know the owners are trying to move the team to a downtown Tampa site directly across from the St. Pete Times where the Lightning play. The bonds to pay off Tropicana Dome expire in 2016 even though their lease does not expire until 2024. Since the dome is going to be paid off soon, the Rays lawyers are already working to get them out of their lease which MLB will support.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 08:49 AM
They should let the state float away.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m49d88timI1rww3d7o1_400.gif

So definitive.

I'd argue miami and Orlando get very different types of tourists ... Euro trash, posers and seniors vs. families.

It still has to be a losing proposition to move a team that has some of the worst attendance issues in the league to a city that's 35% smaller and bank on a bunch of old people and kids with no regional allegiance to make up that difference.

Florida is a nice place to catch some rays at the beach, do some sport fishing, go to some overpriced theme parks and ride some overrated roller coasters, float to on a box from Cuba, and sit around and wait to die in, but it just does not seem to work as a pro sports market, especially outside of Miami, which seems to have the only two pro teams in the state that ever get any kind of real support; the Dolphins and Heat, though they only seem to really be popular when the former is headed by arguably the greatest QB of all time and when the latter has two of the Top 10 NBA players on its roster, one of whom may be one of the 3-5 greatest players ever.

SI1020
01-25-2013, 09:11 AM
I like Bugs Bunny too.

Golden Sox
01-25-2013, 10:02 AM
We use to vacation in Florida. First of all , the stadium in St. Pete is easily the worse stadium I have ever been to. Secondly, I always caught the vibe that Tampa looks at St. Pete the same way the Northsiders of Chicago look at the Southside of Chicago. As a matter of fact I remember the Tampa newspapers stating in their editorial pages that the stadium in St. Pete should not be built there. They felt most people from Tampa would not go there. If the city of Tampa builds a stadium somewhere in downtown Tampa, I would think the Rays will stay there. I don't think they will move anywhere. If the new stadium is not built in Tampa, I would think MLB will eliminate the franchise.

moochpuppy
01-25-2013, 10:16 AM
Maybe Disney wants to get back into baseball, buy the Rays, move them into the Orlando area and build a state-of-the-art stadium on property (near the ESPN Wide World of Sports complex). The facility is easy to get to (right off I4) and they could incorporate game tickets into their theme park ticket plans. All kind of options open up.

Just spit balling here.

Oblong
01-25-2013, 10:19 AM
Because maybe he would not like being remembered as the guy who was responsible for the loss of the Rays for the area. He needs to do the right thing.

would anybody notice? Seems to me like the people there don't want one so I don't understand why the mayor letting them go would be a bad thing.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 10:21 AM
would anybody notice? Seems to me like the people there don't want one so I don't understand why the mayor letting them go would be a bad thing.

Yeah, not to mention didn't the former mayor of Miami get voted out of office because he pushed through the financing for the Marlins new stadium against the wishes of most of his constituents?

HomeFish
01-25-2013, 10:38 AM
I would like to see Montreal get a team back and your right it does make sense with the rivalrys. The idea I really like is that the Expos get back their franchise history from the Nationals. Then you could give the city of Washington their team history from the Twins. I don't think the Twins even care about their history in Washington, nor should they care. I doubt too many Arizona Cardinals fans care about the old Chicago Cardinals so why would a Twin fan care about the old Senators.

The Nationals do not care about their Montreal history: they have retired numbers from a few Expos players, and their TV play-by-play guy is a former Expo, but apart from this they very much shy away from it. You can't get on the jumbotron at Nationals Park if you are wearing Expos gear.

On the other hand, they already make a lot of use of the Senators history: they wear Senators jerseys from time to time and sell them in their gift shop.

LITTLE NELL
01-25-2013, 12:26 PM
We moved to the Sarasota area in 2005 and love it however I have to agree that the Tampa/St. Pete/Clearwater area (largest combined metropolitan area in Florida) can't seem to support MLB and are also having serious problems with the NFL as well. Ironically, the NHL is doing well (Lightning).

I tend to watch the Bears game at a local watering hole and the past few seasons there have been many Bucs fans watching the games because of the local home game blackouts. I remember one Bucs fans sharing his displeasure about how so many people still remain fans of the teams they rooted for before moving to Florida. I asked him why so many Bucs "fans" don't attend the games since there are so many available seats? Bears, Packers, Giants, Steelers, etc. sell out when it's 5 degrees and the Bucs can't sell out when it's 70 degrees?!

The same thing with the Rays. When the SOX played them in the ALDS a few years ago, I went to all the games at the Trop and suffered through the cowbell rage. I actually saw some Rays fans wearing team jerseys with the price tags still attached! :rolleyes: I also had a nice spirited discussion with one lady who's mouth was as loud as her cowbell and was laughing when she couldn't answer my question by naming five other Rays players besides Evan Longoria.

I don't think Tampa Bay area deserves the Rays. I know the owners are trying to move the team to a downtown Tampa site directly across from the St. Pete Times where the Lightning play. The bonds to pay off Tropicana Dome expire in 2016 even though their lease does not expire until 2024. Since the dome is going to be paid off soon, the Rays lawyers are already working to get them out of their lease which MLB will support.

I think that the Rays would do much better in a stadium near downtown Tampa. As you stated, the Lightning is doing very well and I know their fans are very loyal as I've been to a few games at the Forum and check out their Facebook page once in awhile. They broke their TV viewership ratings the other night and are drawing very well at the Forum. I'm still a Blackhawk fan but the Lightning is a very close second as I never miss one of their televised games which just about all of them. I also watch most of the Rays games unless the Sox are on the tube.

I've been to quite a few Sox-Rays games at the Trop and last year I was surrounded by season ticket holders who knew the game and all thought that the Rays would draw better in downtown Tampa.

As for St Pete, I think it's a great little city, the key word is little and there are just not enough people in St. Pete and not enough from Tampa who are willing to make the trip south to support the team.

SCCWS
01-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Stuart Sternberg, the owner of the Tampa Bay Rays, said today the Major League Baseball no longer believes in the viability of having a franchise there. I have always said that the Rays should be in Orlando. I think that's a better market for sports, and the Rays would draw better there.

Link (http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/article1272064.ece)

Why Orlando??? Greater Orlando has a population of about 1/2 greater Tampa.

chicagowhitesox1
01-25-2013, 06:08 PM
The Nationals do not care about their Montreal history: they have retired numbers from a few Expos players, and their TV play-by-play guy is a former Expo, but apart from this they very much shy away from it. You can't get on the jumbotron at Nationals Park if you are wearing Expos gear.

On the other hand, they already make a lot of use of the Senators history: they wear Senators jerseys from time to time and sell them in their gift shop.

The Nationals at least have a few retired numbers of the Expos, the Twins have no retired numbers from the old Washington Senators. I didn't know the Nats could sell Senators merchandise but its's nice the Twins don't mind.

SCCWS
01-25-2013, 06:15 PM
Pretty much this. We heard the same story in Miami. They built a multi-million dollar facility in the "better location", and they still couldn't draw. Shut the state down after Spring Training and move these two teams to cities that will appreciate them.

Huh???? Miami averaged 27,000 per game last year. That is better than the White Sox did.

WhiteSox5187
01-25-2013, 06:23 PM
Huh???? Miami averaged 27,000 per game last year. That is better than the White Sox did.

In a brand new billion dollar stadium with a bunch of new stars, that isn't good enough. They played .700 ball in May and still couldn't draw flies.

LITTLE NELL
01-25-2013, 06:25 PM
Huh???? Miami averaged 27,000 per game last year. That is better than the White Sox did.

The only problem is that they were hoping for 3,000,000 and came up about 800,000 short.
They have the same problem that the Rays have, they built the new park too far south, it should have been near the Broward and Dade county line.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 06:25 PM
Huh???? Miami averaged 27,000 per game last year. That is better than the White Sox did.

That's also with the traditional "New Stadium" attendance bump. Let's see how they draw over the next couple of years. I'm guessing it's going to be in the mid to high 10,000's.

Oh, and by the way, the cost of that park is going to be in the billions before Miami pays it off!

http://deadspin.com/5978964/the-real-cost-to-miami-for-marlins-park-is-in-the-billions

TDog
01-25-2013, 08:51 PM
A team in Brooklyn or Manhattan would work. ....

Baseball fans in Brooklyn and Manhattan already have a local baseball team to follow. This isn't 1950. It isn't even 1960.

It is an irrelevant question, though. Most of the Yankees local fanbase comes from outside of the Bronx. Most of the Mets local fanbase comes from outside of Queens. And there is no way the Yankees or Mets would allow an American or National League team to be relocated to Brooklyn or Manhattan.

Mr. Jinx
01-26-2013, 10:06 AM
Baseball fans in Brooklyn and Manhattan already have a local baseball team to follow. This isn't 1950. It isn't even 1960.

It is an irrelevant question, though. Most of the Yankees local fanbase comes from outside of the Bronx. Most of the Mets local fanbase comes from outside of Queens. And there is no way the Yankees or Mets would allow an American or National League team to be relocated to Brooklyn or Manhattan.

Yeah, I would much rather spread the wealth of having a pro team to a city without one than give a third to New York. Sure, you could make more money locally with a third NY team, but if you want to go that route might as well pack up about half the teams in the league (Sox included) and move them all to the northeastern seaboard.

Noir
01-26-2013, 04:02 PM
Next stop, Montreal!

Lip Man 1
01-26-2013, 08:42 PM
Unless the state of Florida is willing to allow them to break a long term lease and go somewhere else, the Rays aren't going anyplace, regardless of what they draw.

And by all accounts the state is not willing to do this.

Lip

Deadguy
01-27-2013, 01:42 PM
Montreal is the best fit in terms of population and corporate presence (to lease those expensive suites). The problem is that they would have to build a baseball only stadium before MLB would even entertain the idea.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/baseball-has-few-options-for-expansion.html?appSession=391087404391082&RecordID=&2&PrevPageID=&cpipagePageID==1&CPISortType=&CPIorderBy (http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/baseball-has-few-options-for-expansion.html?appSession=391087404391082&RecordID=&2&PrevPageID=&cpipagePageID==1&CPISortType=&CPIorderBy)=

The New York MSA obviously has the population and Corporate presence to support a third team (Northern NJ, Brooklyn, or Long Island), but there is no way that the Yankees or the Mets would allow it to happen

TheVulture
01-27-2013, 08:44 PM
Unless the state of Florida is willing to allow them to break a long term lease and go somewhere else, the Rays aren't going anyplace, regardless of what they draw.

And by all accounts the state is not willing to do this.

Lip

The lease is actually with the city of St Petersburg, but from what I've read you are otherwise absolutely correct.

Irishsox1
01-27-2013, 11:48 PM
Nashville. They have a pro hockey team and pro football team. Yes, they have a AAA team for the Brewers but if I was the Rays, I would be looking at Nashville.

chicagowhitesox1
01-28-2013, 05:53 AM
Sacramento would probably be high on the list. I think they have the 20th largest market in the United States. I don't know how that would affect the The A's though because I hear they might move to San Jose. That may be a rumor, not positive on that.

I don't think the SouthEast is a good spot for baseball, I know Atlanta seems like a baseball city but from what I hear the fans in Atlanta are pretty fair weather. The Braves are lucky to have some good baseball minds because I guarantee if they start losing its gonna be 10,000 attendance nights again. Unless Nashville somehow created a dynasty like the Braves I think they would end up being like the Rays and Marlins.

Nascar and college football fans seem pretty loyal and alot of those fans probably consider baseball a sport for Northern Yankees.

Red Barchetta
01-28-2013, 08:33 AM
Unless the state of Florida is willing to allow them to break a long term lease and go somewhere else, the Rays aren't going anyplace, regardless of what they draw.

And by all accounts the state is not willing to do this.

Lip

The lease is actually with the city of St Petersburg, but from what I've read you are otherwise absolutely correct.

The bonds to pay off the dome expire in 2016 so that is more of a magic date in the minds of the Rays ownership than the actual lease through 2027. If the Rays were to leave Tropicana (or Tampa area) in 2017, at least they would not leave St. Petersburg with a bill, rather just a big, ugly balldome to sell, lease or re-develop as they please. Commercial lease deals are broken and re-negotiated on a regular basis based on legal outclause interpretation, market conditions, etc.

MLB's first priority is its "brand" and if the Tampa Bay area can't support the MLB brand with a ballpark either in St. Petersburg or Tampa, I'm sure MLB will step in to do whatever it takes to support the integrity of the league. The other owners aren't going to sit back with their revenue sharing model and watch the Rays ownership fail especially after they have proven they can produce a strong, winning franchise. For example, the Yankees ownership has been the biggest local proponent outside of the Rays ownership to support a new ballpark in Tampa Bay.

What hurts the Tampa Bay market for both MLB and NFL is that even with winning seasons/on field products, attendance is still an issue.

mrfourni
01-28-2013, 11:03 AM
The bonds to pay off the dome expire in 2016 so that is more of a magic date in the minds of the Rays ownership than the actual lease through 2027. If the Rays were to leave Tropicana (or Tampa area) in 2017, at least they would not leave St. Petersburg with a bill, rather just a big, ugly balldome to sell, lease or re-develop as they please. Commercial lease deals are broken and re-negotiated on a regular basis based on legal outclause interpretation, market conditions, etc.

MLB's first priority is its "brand" and if the Tampa Bay area can't support the MLB brand with a ballpark either in St. Petersburg or Tampa, I'm sure MLB will step in to do whatever it takes to support the integrity of the league. The other owners aren't going to sit back with their revenue sharing model and watch the Rays ownership fail especially after they have proven they can produce a strong, winning franchise. For example, the Yankees ownership has been the biggest local proponent outside of the Rays ownership to support a new ballpark in Tampa Bay.

What hurts the Tampa Bay market for both MLB and NFL is that even with winning seasons/on field products, attendance is still an issue.

Interesting article on why the Rays probably won't be leaving the Tampa area, at least in the immediate future:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/48956/the-rays-threats-are-more-of-the-same

TDog
01-29-2013, 02:59 AM
Sacramento would probably be high on the list. I think they have the 20th largest market in the United States. I don't know how that would affect the The A's though because I hear they might move to San Jose. That may be a rumor, not positive on that. ...

I don't expect the A's will ever move to San Jose. The A's ceded the territory to the Giants before the Giants built a stadium with private financing secured with the understanding that San Jose was and would be Giants territory. I've been told there are financial considerations that go beyond the competition for fans -- tickets and merchandising and such. Really, the South Bay is not the East Bay. You don't have to cross a toll bridge to get from San Jose to San Francisco and you do to get into The City from Oakland.

I also don't see Sacramento as a candidate for Major League Baseball, although in some ways the A's might seem better off there. Raley Field, home of the River Cats, an A's affiliate, seats less than 12,000. Bringing it up to Major League standards would seem a major undertaking. I don't see such renovations or a new stadium being built in this economic and political environment, not with government involvement anyway. Sacramento may not be able to hang on to its NBA team much longer.

Still, if any team were going to move to Sacramento, it would pretty much have to be the A's.

SCCWS
01-29-2013, 09:42 AM
In a brand new billion dollar stadium with a bunch of new stars, that isn't good enough. They played .700 ball in May and still couldn't draw flies.

You responded without reading the post. His statement

"We heard the same story in Miami. They built a multi-million dollar facility in the "better location", and they still couldn't draw. "

My response was actually they did draw............. probably because of the new stadium. 27,000 a game was 12th best in MLB yet Miami finished almost 30 games out. Better attendance than our White Sox who were in the race until the very end.

doublem23
01-29-2013, 09:45 AM
My response was actually they did draw............. probably because of the new stadium. 27,000 a game was 12th best in MLB yet Miami finished almost 30 games out. Better attendance than our White Sox who were in the race until the very end.

27 K a night in a brand new stadium is drawing nothing

Chez
01-29-2013, 11:11 AM
Nashville. They have a pro hockey team and pro football team. Yes, they have a AAA team for the Brewers but if I was the Rays, I would be looking at Nashville.

Love Nashville. Was there two weekends ago and couldn't believe the incredible support for the Preds. People mention Montreal, but do we know whether Montreal wants a team back?

doublem23
01-29-2013, 11:45 AM
Love Nashville. Was there two weekends ago and couldn't believe the incredible support for the Preds. People mention Montreal, but do we know whether Montreal wants a team back?

Nashville is waaaaaaaaaaay too small to be considered for an MLB team. ****, the MSA barely has more than 1.6 million people and that covers almost 7,000 square miles of real estate.

LITTLE NELL
01-29-2013, 05:47 PM
Nashville is waaaaaaaaaaay too small to be considered for an MLB team. ****, the MSA barely has more than 1.6 million people and that covers almost 7,000 square miles of real estate.

According to this list Milwaukee is now the smallest market in MLB which actually surprised me so Nashville might be able to support a team as they have a few more citizens than Milwaukee but I don't think MLB will give up on Tampa and they will get a new stadium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

doublem23
01-29-2013, 05:55 PM
According to this list Milwaukee is now the smallest market in MLB which actually surprised me so Nashville might be able to support a team as they have a few more citizens than Milwaukee but I don't think MLB will give up on Tampa and they will get a new stadium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

Not all MSA's are built equally, Nashville's MSA may have about 100 K more residents, but these Southern and Western geographic areas are almost always larger in size, and therefore less dense, than their Eastern and Midwestern counterparts.

Nashville's MSA is approximately 7,000 square miles large. Milwaukee's is 2,300 square miles. I'd be willing to bet if you superimposed the boundaries of the Milwaukee MSA centered on Nashville, you'd never come close to matching the population.

Also, I've only been to Nashville and even then we just drove through, but it seems like that town has the most illogically laid road network. Can't imagine it's a picnic trying to navigate it ever.

LITTLE NELL
01-29-2013, 06:01 PM
Not all MSA's are built equally, Nashville's MSA may have about 100 K more residents, but these Southern and Western geographic areas are almost always larger in size, and therefore less dense, than their Eastern and Midwestern counterparts.

Nashville's MSA is approximately 7,000 square miles large. Milwaukee's is 2,300 square miles. I'd be willing to bet if you superimposed the boundaries of the Milwaukee MSA centered on Nashville, you'd never come close to matching the population.

Also, I've only been to Nashville and even then we just drove through, but it seems like that town has the most illogically laid road network. Can't imagine it's a picnic trying to navigate it ever.

You are right about the roads in Nashville, been through there many times on trips between Chicago and Florida and you really have to pay attention to the road signs.

LITTLE NELL
01-30-2013, 08:16 AM
Tampa Tribune article today about a Tuesday meeting with Rays owner Sternberg and area politicos. Amazing figure for upcoming season; only 300 season ticket accounts from St. Pete which comes out to about 1000 fans a game from St. Pete season ticket sales. Sternberg stated that there are just not enough people from St. Pete that are supporting the team. The team must be moved closer to downtown Tampa or the Carillon area in North Pinellas county. Sternberg feels that the team can draw an average of close to 30,000 a game with a move (I know of another team that would love to average 30,000 a game). The Lightning are selling out the Forum with 19,000 a game so it's quite possible that the Rays could get close to 30,000 a game in a new stadium as I'm sure there are a lot more baseball fans than hockey fans in the TB area.

Red Barchetta
01-30-2013, 10:33 AM
Tampa Tribune article today about a Tuesday meeting with Rays owner Sternberg and area politicos. Amazing figure for upcoming season; only 300 season ticket accounts from St. Pete which comes out to about 1000 fans a game from St. Pete season ticket sales. Sternberg stated that there are just not enough people from St. Pete that are supporting the team. The team must be moved closer to downtown Tampa or the Carillon area in North Pinellas county. Sternberg feels that the team can draw an average of close to 30,000 a game with a move (I know of another team that would love to average 30,000 a game). The Lightning are selling out the Forum with 19,000 a game so it's quite possible that the Rays could get close to 30,000 a game in a new stadium as I'm sure there are a lot more baseball fans than hockey fans in the TB area.

Pretty much sums up the challenge the Rays face. I actually think downtown St. Pete is nicer/prettier than downtown Tampa, however it's not the epicenter of professional sports for the area.

Out of all the proposed locations, my favorite location and the site I think the Rays would be most successful is downtown Tampa next to the Times Forum. The land is begging to be developed and combined with Lightning hockey, concert events and the Channelside arts & entertainment venues, I think the Rays would do well there, especially if the ballpark is state of the art with a retractable roof.

The Carillon concept is nice, however I don't think it will fix the attendance problem based on the location.

ComiskeyBrewer
01-30-2013, 11:03 AM
Nashville's MSA is approximately 7,000 square miles large. Milwaukee's is 2,300 square miles. I'd be willing to bet if you superimposed the boundaries of the Milwaukee MSA centered on Nashville, you'd never come close to matching the population.



Milwaukee's MSA is REALLY small, If you add the extra square miles to the surrounding counties, Milwaukee jumps to around 2.5 million people(with an extra 500 sq miles to spare).

Hitmen77
01-30-2013, 12:31 PM
Nashville is waaaaaaaaaaay too small to be considered for an MLB team. ****, the MSA barely has more than 1.6 million people and that covers almost 7,000 square miles of real estate.

This subject seems to come up every several months or so. Cities are suggested as good candidates to have a MLB team. Sometimes people base this on the fact that certain cities have a successful NFL, NBA, and/or NHL team.

The problem is that it's a lot more difficult to find a metro area that can consistently support a MLB than any of the other major sports. The NHL and NBA play half as many games per season and in arenas that are about half the capacity of MLB ballparks. The NFL is wildly popular and plays only 8 home games a season.

These days, MLB teams that are average less than about 25k per game are said to have "poor attendance." That's tough to achieve night after night for a team that plays just about every single day and has 81 home games.

....and that doesn't even get into the issue of big money from local TV contracts that, more and more, are becoming a key part of teams' finances.

I don't think Nashville, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, etc. can support a team.

IMO, the Rays aren't going anywhere. MLB can piss and moan all they want, but they and/or Rays ownership signed a lease until 2027. I don't see them breaking that when they really don't have anywhere else to go. I don't think the fact that the bonds for the Trop will be paid off in 2016 makes a difference....they still have a lease and they won't break it without anywhere else to go. Maybe Montreal could work again, but they'd have to approve funding for a new MLB-only ballpark first....and I'm not holding my breath for that to happen any time soon.


Milwaukee's MSA is REALLY small, If you add the extra square miles to the surrounding counties, Milwaukee jumps to around 2.5 million people(with an extra 500 sq miles to spare).

Good point. Plus, Milwaukee has 50+ years of MLB history going back to the wildly popular Braves teams of the 1950s.

Frater Perdurabo
01-30-2013, 04:51 PM
New York supported three MLB teams for several decades. That metro area can do so again now given its larger population. Move the Rays to Brooklyn, tell the Yankees and Mets to shove it, and be done with it.

floridafan
01-30-2013, 04:58 PM
Since I am floridafan, I feel a need to inject myself into this thread.

I have been a Rays fan since they first arrived in Florida, and up until my recent shift of allegiance to the White Sox.

I have been to the Trop many times. Poor parking, no night life, questionable adjacent neighborhoods, and a long way away from anywhere. It sits close to the end of the peninsula that is Pinellas County. Nothing to the South except Bradenton, a long ride over the Sunshine Skyway (an awesome drive with a history).

Re locating the team to downtown Tampa, or even north to where it is centrally located where 275 crosses Tampa Bay into Pinellas County would be a tremendous improvement!

An outdoor stadium with retractable roof with a classic design would be such an improvement over an indoor artificial field. It lacks so much of the traditional baseball park experience.

Baseball is extremely popular in the Tampa Bay Area. Young families and retirees as well as tourists would support a centrally located ball park much more readily than one that sits at the southern most edge of a bay with nothing but water on three sides.

DSpivack
01-30-2013, 05:13 PM
New York supported three MLB teams for several decades. That metro area can do so again now given its larger population. Move the Rays to Brooklyn, tell the Yankees and Mets to shove it, and be done with it.

Given how important TV $ is to team revenue, perhaps moreso than ever, I don't see that ever happening.

Deadguy
02-03-2013, 12:08 AM
This subject seems to come up every several months or so. Cities are suggested as good candidates to have a MLB team. Sometimes people base this on the fact that certain cities have a successful NFL, NBA, and/or NHL team.

The problem is that it's a lot more difficult to find a metro area that can consistently support a MLB than any of the other major sports. The NHL and NBA play half as many games per season and in arenas that are about half the capacity of MLB ballparks. The NFL is wildly popular and plays only 8 home games a season.

These days, MLB teams that are average less than about 25k per game are said to have "poor attendance." That's tough to achieve night after night for a team that plays just about every single day and has 81 home games.

....and that doesn't even get into the issue of big money from local TV contracts that, more and more, are becoming a key part of teams' finances.

I don't think Nashville, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, etc. can support a team.

IMO, the Rays aren't going anywhere. MLB can piss and moan all they want, but they and/or Rays ownership signed a lease until 2027. I don't see them breaking that when they really don't have anywhere else to go. I don't think the fact that the bonds for the Trop will be paid off in 2016 makes a difference....they still have a lease and they won't break it without anywhere else to go. Maybe Montreal could work again, but they'd have to approve funding for a new MLB-only ballpark first....and I'm not holding my breath for that to happen any time soon.




Good point. Plus, Milwaukee has 50+ years of MLB history going back to the wildly popular Braves teams of the 1950s.

Good post. Milwaukee is an anomaly and the attendance that they get is a testament to how great their fans are.

Most studies indicate that an MSA of 2.5 million, in addition to the presence of a large number of corporations, is need to support a MLB franchise. That eliminates almost every market that does not currently have a team, outside of Montreal.

Also, the cities that have a large number of transplants are doomed to fail (I.e. Phoenix, Miami, Tampa), since the people living there are either fans of other teams or are not going to support a local team. This is why Las Vegas is such a horrible option, in addition to the fact that it currently does not have the population to support an MLB franchise.

The last market that was truly viable for baseball was Denver, when it was awarded a franchise in the early 90s, which MLB avoided for so long for obvious reasons. After that, MLB overextended itself and moved into markets that clearly can not support MLB. Right now, contraction, Montreal, or a third NYC team (MSA 21+ million) are the best options for the Rays and the A's.

Golden Sox
02-03-2013, 11:01 AM
Weren't the Expos quietly trying to move to New Jersey? I don't think the Yankees and Mets would allow another team in New York. I don't know if they have the right to keep a team out of New Jersey. I would think New Jersey could easily be a better choice for a MLB team than any other city.

Red Barchetta
02-03-2013, 11:26 AM
Good post. Milwaukee is an anomaly and the attendance that they get is a testament to how great their fans are.

Most studies indicate that an MSA of 2.5 million, in addition to the presence of a large number of corporations, is need to support a MLB franchise. That eliminates almost every market that does not currently have a team, outside of Montreal.

Also, the cities that have a large number of transplants are doomed to fail (I.e. Phoenix, Miami, Tampa), since the people living there are either fans of other teams or are not going to support a local team. This is why Las Vegas is such a horrible option, in addition to the fact that it currently does not have the population to support an MLB franchise.

The last market that was truly viable for baseball was Denver, when it was awarded a franchise in the early 90s, which MLB avoided for so long for obvious reasons. After that, MLB overextended itself and moved into markets that clearly can not support MLB. Right now, contraction, Montreal, or a third NYC team (MSA 21+ million) are the best options for the Rays and the A's.

I agree. The same can be said for the fans of the Packers. There is no way a city the size of Green Bay would be awarded a franchise in today's market. The fans of both those teams are very loyal and should be acknowledged. I know when the NFL had the Packers playing in Milwaukee on occassion, many Green Bay fans were concerned they were trying to move the team.

I remember a few people asking me if I would have become a Cub fan if the SOX would have moved to Florida and I told them I would have become a Brewer fan first. I used to go to 4-5 SOX-Brewers games in Milwaukee every season when they were in the same division. I was hoping with the recent realignment that the Royals would move to the NL Central and the Brewers would move back to the AL Central. I like the idea of Minneapolis, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee and Chicago being in the same division. Oh well, it won't happen.

Back to the Rays, people have mentioned Orlando, however I think Orlando is similar to Las Vegas in terms of tourist attendance. I eventually think the Rays are going to move to another location in Tampa Bay and probably have to work in some kind of profit sharing with the city of St. Pete.

Personally, I would like to see them move to the downtown Tampa site next to Channelside and the Times Forum and then renovate the Al Lang St. Pete area into their spring training home.

LITTLE NELL
02-03-2013, 12:10 PM
I agree. The same can be said for the fans of the Packers. There is no way a city the size of Green Bay would be awarded a franchise in today's market. The fans of both those teams are very loyal and should be acknowledged. I know when the NFL had the Packers playing in Milwaukee on occassion, many Green Bay fans were concerned they were trying to move the team.

I remember a few people asking me if I would have become a Cub fan if the SOX would have moved to Florida and I told them I would have become a Brewer fan first. I used to go to 4-5 SOX-Brewers games in Milwaukee every season when they were in the same division. I was hoping with the recent realignment that the Royals would move to the NL Central and the Brewers would move back to the AL Central. I like the idea of Minneapolis, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee and Chicago being in the same division. Oh well, it won't happen.

Back to the Rays, people have mentioned Orlando, however I think Orlando is similar to Las Vegas in terms of tourist attendance. I eventually think the Rays are going to move to another location in Tampa Bay and probably have to work in some kind of profit sharing with the city of St. Pete.

Personally, I would like to see them move to the downtown Tampa site next to Channelside and the Times Forum and then renovate the Al Lang St. Pete area into their spring training home.

That's what I'm hoping for. I don't want them to leave as I watch most of their games on TV and have a soft spot in my heart for them plus we always get over to TB to see the Sox on their yearly visit.

DSpivack
02-03-2013, 02:18 PM
I agree. The same can be said for the fans of the Packers. There is no way a city the size of Green Bay would be awarded a franchise in today's market. The fans of both those teams are very loyal and should be acknowledged. I know when the NFL had the Packers playing in Milwaukee on occassion, many Green Bay fans were concerned they were trying to move the team.

I agree, but a baseball team is the hardest sport to maintain support and attendance for, while football is the easiest. They can get 80,000 people to Green Bay on 8 sundays in the fall; 81 times throughout the year would be a much more difficult proposition. That just makes long-term support for a team like the Brewers all the more amazing, IMHO.

Hitmen77
02-04-2013, 10:39 AM
I would like to see Montreal get a team back and your right it does make sense with the rivalrys. The idea I really like is that the Expos get back their franchise history from the Nationals. Then you could give the city of Washington their team history from the Twins. I don't think the Twins even care about their history in Washington, nor should they care. I doubt too many Arizona Cardinals fans care about the old Chicago Cardinals so why would a Twin fan care about the old Senators.

I don't see that happening. The only time I'm aware of that one of the major US sports leagues transferred franchise history to a new team was when the NFL transferred the Cleveland Browns history to the new expansion Browns that began play in 1999. I believe that was part of a lawsuit settlement with the city of Cleveland.

If I'm not mistaken, all MLB merchandise revenue is shared between the teams, so it doesn't matter to the league if Washington Senators merchandise is sold in Nationals Park and not in Minnesota or Arlington, Texas.

Weren't the Expos quietly trying to move to New Jersey? I don't think the Yankees and Mets would allow another team in New York. I don't know if they have the right to keep a team out of New Jersey. I would think New Jersey could easily be a better choice for a MLB team than any other city.

They do. As much as a 3rd team in the NY metro area is the best alternative, it's never going to happen because the Yankees and Mets will never let it happen.

I agree, but a baseball team is the hardest sport to maintain support and attendance for, while football is the easiest. They can get 80,000 people to Green Bay on 8 sundays in the fall; 81 times throughout the year would be a much more difficult proposition. That just makes long-term support for a team like the Brewers all the more amazing, IMHO.

It seems to me that support for the Brewers really took off after they moved to Miller Park. If I remember correctly, their years at County Stadium didn't have such good attendance numbers. Maybe part of their success is thanks to having a retractable roof which makes early season days cold and/or rainy days still a good draw.

It's not like the Brewers have been wildly successful since 2001, but they have had a good amount of exciting teams and exciting players over the last decade or so. They've certainly succeed in turning a small market team into a successful franchise attendance-wise.

MUsoxfan
02-04-2013, 10:43 AM
It seems to me that support for the Brewers really took off after they moved to Miller Park. If I remember correctly, their years at County Stadium didn't have such good attendance numbers. Maybe part of their success is thanks to having a retractable roof which makes early season days cold and/or rainy days still a good draw.

It's not like the Brewers have been wildly successful since 2001, but they have had a good amount of exciting teams and exciting players over the last decade or so. They've certainly succeed in turning a small market team into a successful franchise attendance-wise.

New owners have much to do with it as well

LITTLE NELL
02-04-2013, 12:05 PM
It seems to me that support for the Brewers really took off after they moved to Miller Park. If I remember correctly, their years at County Stadium didn't have such good attendance numbers. Maybe part of their success is thanks to having a retractable roof which makes early season days cold and/or rainy days still a good draw.

The Brewers had some good years at County Stadium especially in the mid 80s with Stormin Gorman Thomas and Robin Yount leading the way.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/brewatte.shtml

Red Barchetta
02-05-2013, 01:23 PM
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That's what I'm hoping for. I don't want them to leave as I watch most of their games on TV and have a soft spot in my heart for them plus we always get over to TB to see the Sox on their yearly visit.



The three cities that make up the greater Tampa Bay area have a history of not working well together in order to develop the region. This battle over the Rays is a perfect example. It has been proven by the lack of attendance and lack of season ticket holder sales, that a domed ballpark in downtown St. Petersburg does not work even with a winning team that reaches the World Series. No matter how much the mayer of St. Pete waives the Tropicana lease agreement in the face of the Rays ownership, nothing is going to change even if the Rays win the World Series.

I wish they could all get in a room and then look at the big picture and decide what is in the best interest of Tampa Bay. Why not work together to build a new, retractable roof, modern ballpark in downtown Tampa (Channelside) and work out a deal where St. Pete still profits from the Rays through the original lease agreement term and then fund the re-development of the Tropicana dome area into a spring training sports complex for the Rays? That way both sides come out ahead and help move the region forward.

Hitmen77
02-05-2013, 02:26 PM
The Brewers had some good years at County Stadium especially in the mid 80s with Stormin Gorman Thomas and Robin Yount leading the way.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/brewatte.shtml

That was thanks to the bump they got from the 1982 pennant-winning team. But after 1983, they were below the AL average in attendance. They drew a decent amount of people in 1987-89, but they won 91 games in '87 and finished only 2 games out in '88.

Their attendance has been much better in Miller Park, but it really took in 2007. That year was their 1st playoff contender in ages and they only finished 2 games back. After that, they made the playoffs in '08 and '11. So, success on the field has played a big part in their attendance boost.

LITTLE NELL
02-08-2013, 07:32 AM
Article in today's Tampa Tribune; St. Pete city council turns down Rays request to even explore looking for a new site. This is insane, as Red Barchetta said a few posts ago the powers to be are not working together and bottom line is that the whole area will lose the team.

Red Barchetta
02-08-2013, 08:51 AM
Article in today's Tampa Tribune; St. Pete city council turns down Rays request to even explore looking for a new site. This is insane, as Red Barchetta said a few posts ago the powers to be are not working together and bottom line is that the whole area will lose the team.

This is the same city council who shot down a proposal from the Rays a few years ago to build a privately funded, bayfront ballpark on the site of an existing, spring training ballpark site.

It seems as though the St. Pete city council cannot get past the fact that they built an ugly dome in 1990, eight years before they attracted a full-time tenant with the (Devil) Rays and they want to prove they were right with their vision. I know it's hard to believe, but there are only 7 older ballparks in MLB than Tropicana and most of them have been entirely renovated. The St. Pete council realizes that the only way the dome will remain a viable structure is to keep the Rays in St. Pete, despite the poor attendance. If the Rays move out, the occassional tractor pull, monster truck or concert event will not be enough to justify the dome. The dome previously hosted the NHL Lightning from 1993-1996 before they moved the franchise to downtown Tampa, so I know it's a matter of pride for St. Pete not to lose the Rays and to allow Tampa to have all three professional sports teams.

Railsplitter
02-08-2013, 09:32 AM
Weren't the Expos quietly trying to move to New Jersey? I don't think the Yankees and Mets would allow another team in New York. I don't know if they have the right to keep a team out of New Jersey. I would think New Jersey could easily be a better choice for a MLB team than any other city.

I t's been 56 years since New York had three teams, meaning anybody old enough to remember going to the Polo Grounds or Ebbets Field is old enough to have grandchildren. I doubt any current Mets or Yankees fans would care about a new team.

Nobody has mentioned Louisville, which lost a team when the National League contracted in 1899. IIRC. Louisville had the firstbminor league team to exceed 1,000,000.

Mr. Jinx
02-08-2013, 01:05 PM
I t's been 56 years since New York had three teams, meaning anybody old enough to remember going to the Polo Grounds or Ebbets Field is old enough to have grandchildren. I doubt any current Mets or Yankees fans would care about a new team.

Nobody has mentioned Louisville, which lost a team when the National League contracted in 1899. IIRC. Louisville had the firstbminor league team to exceed 1,000,000.

Louisville is relatively close to Cincinnati already though (another small market team) and I just don't think that region would be able to support 2 major league teams. Most Kentucky fans are already going to be Reds or to a much lesser extent Cardinals fans anyway so I think the fans you get would be cannibalizing from Cincinnati.

DSpivack
02-08-2013, 01:49 PM
Louisville is relatively close to Cincinnati already though (another small market team) and I just don't think that region would be able to support 2 major league teams. Most Kentucky fans are already going to be Reds or to a much lesser extent Cardinals fans anyway so I think the fans you get would be cannibalizing from Cincinnati.

Too small of a TV market.

ComiskeyBrewer
02-09-2013, 10:12 AM
It seems to me that support for the Brewers really took off after they moved to Miller Park. If I remember correctly, their years at County Stadium didn't have such good attendance numbers. Maybe part of their success is thanks to having a retractable roof which makes early season days cold and/or rainy days still a good draw.

It's not like the Brewers have been wildly successful since 2001, but they have had a good amount of exciting teams and exciting players over the last decade or so. They've certainly succeed in turning a small market team into a successful franchise attendance-wise.

New Ownership had as much, if not more to do with the attendance rising than Miller Park itself(though the promise of no rain outs helps with the fans driving from areas like the Green Bay/Appleton area. And it is a lot easier to go to games when the temp is going to be 70* no matter what).

Lemon44
10-18-2014, 11:10 AM
With Andrew Friedman leaving, this story also came out:

www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/new-rays-president-optimistic-about-stadium-talks/2202287

It pertains just to leaving St. Petersburg, not where the Rays would relocate.

TheVulture
10-18-2014, 12:38 PM
If Tampa Bay can't support a team, what does that say about all the teams who have lost far more games recently, such as the White Sox?

MUsoxfan
10-18-2014, 01:24 PM
If Tampa Bay can't support a team, what does that say about all the teams who have lost far more games recently, such as the White Sox?

Florida is the worst pro sports state in the country. They also barely support their NFL teams. There are lots of factors at play here, but I don't think it's fair to bring the Sox into this

TheVulture
10-18-2014, 01:30 PM
Florida is the worst pro sports state in the country. They also barely support their NFL teams. There are lots of factors at play here, but I don't think it's fair to bring the Sox into this

The Rays have won 629 games the last seven years, that's more than all but a few teams. I don't see how TB can be said to be unable to support a team when said team is more successful than most teams.

MUsoxfan
10-18-2014, 01:39 PM
The Rays have won 629 games the last seven years, that's more than all but a few teams. I don't see how TB can be said to be unable to support a team when said team is more successful than most teams.

Easy:

- A large percentage of people that live in Florida are not native to Florida

- There is much more fun stuff to do in Florida than watch a baseball team that you're not a fan of in the first place

- If you live in Tampa, good luck getting to St Pete at rush hour especially when there's no public transport on a large scale

- The venue is in a permanent dome in sunny Florida

- The venue is in a less than ideal neighborhood in St Pete


All those factors together equal ****ty attendance

DSpivack
10-18-2014, 06:11 PM
Easy:

- A large percentage of people that live in Florida are not native to Florida

- There is much more fun stuff to do in Florida than watch a baseball team that you're not a fan of in the first place

- If you live in Tampa, good luck getting to St Pete at rush hour especially when there's no public transport on a large scale

- The venue is in a permanent dome in sunny Florida

- The venue is in a less than ideal neighborhood in St Pete


All those factors together equal ****ty attendance

Those are all good points. Another factor is that a lot of people in the area lived on fixed incomes, right?

Brian26
10-19-2014, 11:09 PM
If Tampa Bay can't support a team, what does that say about all the teams who have lost far more games recently, such as the White Sox?

The Rays have won 629 games the last seven years, that's more than all but a few teams. I don't see how TB can be said to be unable to support a team when said team is more successful than most teams.

The results on the field are irrelevant. The discussion is about market conditions.

doublem23
10-19-2014, 11:34 PM
The Rays have won 629 games the last seven years, that's more than all but a few teams. I don't see how TB can be said to be unable to support a team when said team is more successful than most teams.

They're not talking about the Rays the team, they're talking about Tampa the market

34 Inch Stick
10-20-2014, 10:06 AM
Wait for Castro to kick off and move them to Havana

Golden Sox
10-20-2014, 10:25 AM
I'll never forget when Eddie Einhorn wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete. He said Florida was the greatest opportunity for MLB since the Dodgers moved to LA. The Rays are not only last in attendance, they are last in total revenue. The White Sox are 13th in total revenue according to Forbes magazine.

DumpJerry
10-20-2014, 10:44 AM
The area is populated by life-long (emphasis on "long" since they are all 80+ years old) Yankee and Red Sox fans. Other than when their beloved are in town, why go? Good thing the Rays are not a NL team, Cub fans retire to Arizona.

DSpivack
10-20-2014, 12:43 PM
I'll never forget when Eddie Einhorn wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete. He said Florida was the greatest opportunity for MLB since the Dodgers moved to LA. The Rays are not only last in attendance, they are last in total revenue. The White Sox are 13th in total revenue according to Forbes magazine.

The city decided to build that dome anyway after they lost out on the Sox, right? And that's where the Rays play now.

LITTLE NELL
10-20-2014, 12:57 PM
The city decided to build that dome anyway after they lost out on the Sox, right? And that's where the Rays play now.

They went ahead with plans to build it even before the Sox came into the picture, after the Sox deal fell apart they went after the Giants and finally got the expansion Rays. Many in the Tampa area feel the the Rays would do way better with a new stadium up in the Channelside district where the Lightning are doing very well. The area in St. Pete that Tropicana Field is located is way too far south of the population base. St. Pete is also a virtual ghost town in the summer, seems like the town has a big snowbird population. One thing I have noticed is that the Rays draw much better for day games than night games. Why? I don't know.

LITTLE NELL
10-20-2014, 01:02 PM
Easy:

- A large percentage of people that live in Florida are not native to Florida

- There is much more fun stuff to do in Florida than watch a baseball team that you're not a fan of in the first place

- If you live in Tampa, good luck getting to St Pete at rush hour especially when there's no public transport on a large scale

- The venue is in a permanent dome in sunny Florida

- The venue is in a less than ideal neighborhood in St Pete


All those factors together equal ****ty attendance

Have you ever spent a summer in Florida, yes its hot and humid but you need a dome because it rains just about every day from June through September, not just showers but big thunderstorms with lots a lightning. They usually start around 3 pm, sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a little later.

As far as not many natives, that is true but when we go to see the Sox in St Pete the Ray fans are very vocal, I remember back in 08 when they won the division for the first time that place was packed and with a noise level like the old Chicago Stadium. I live about an hour and 20 minutes away and if we lived in the TB area we would go to more games, not just when the Sox come to town. Ive adopted the Rays as my second favorite team and watch most of their games or the Marlins if the Rays are idle.

Hitmen77
10-20-2014, 01:46 PM
I'll never forget when Eddie Einhorn wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete. He said Florida was the greatest opportunity for MLB since the Dodgers moved to LA. The Rays are not only last in attendance, they are last in total revenue. The White Sox are 13th in total revenue according to Forbes magazine.

Yes, but the man is such a visionary!

Steelrod
10-21-2014, 11:00 AM
Yes, but the man is such a visionary!
Teal?
Created TVS, college broadcast network, Sportvision pay tv (like we all do now), won an emmy for special. Ran CBS sports and put thing on tv that were never watched before. Some success, some failure. I believe that is what a visionary does!

Hitmen77
10-21-2014, 01:58 PM
Teal?
Created TVS, college broadcast network, Sportvision pay tv (like we all do now), won an emmy for special. Ran CBS sports and put thing on tv that were never watched before. Some success, some failure. I believe that is what a visionary does!

Yes, teal.

TDog
10-21-2014, 04:20 PM
Yes, teal.

I think Steelrod has a point, the reality of St. Petersburg notwithstanding. Charlie Finley was probably as visionary an owner as baseball had had in my lifetime, although his eye for talent and what went into winning only worked with draft and the reserve clause allowing him to build winning teams.

Without Finley, the American League probably wouldn't have the DH. The facts that no one adopted designated runners or three-ball walks and Finley had greater faith in Oakland than Kansas City as a baseball market doesn't negate everything else.

Hitmen77
10-21-2014, 08:12 PM
I think Steelrod has a point, the reality of St. Petersburg notwithstanding. Charlie Finley was probably as visionary an owner as baseball had had in my lifetime, although his eye for talent and what went into winning only worked with draft and the reserve clause allowing him to build winning teams.

Without Finley, the American League probably wouldn't have the DH. The facts that no one adopted designated runners or three-ball walks and Finley had greater faith in Oakland than Kansas City as a baseball market doesn't negate everything else.

Oh, no doubt Einhorn was a visionary for things like college football telecasts. I just find it frustrating as a Sox fan that his successful ideas usually had nothing to do with the Sox while his failures were the ideas he had with the Sox. I don't give a **** about college football and I am a diehard Sox fan. So, Einhorn's successes elsewhere mean nothing to me.

That's the basis of my reply. Not that he wasn't an innovator on certain things, it's that his other accomplishments are often used by his defenders when discussing things like the almost-move to St. Pete, which he reportedly was hoping would happen. In other words, he was supposedly the main proponent of moving the Sox to Fla, but...but....he's such a visionary!

If Eddie had his way, he'd be polishing his Emmy at the Trop while the Cubs would be Chicago's only MLB team.

Hitmen77
10-21-2014, 08:15 PM
Teal?
Created TVS, college broadcast network, Sportvision pay tv (like we all do now), won an emmy for special. Ran CBS sports and put thing on tv that were never watched before. Some success, some failure. I believe that is what a visionary does!

We're not all paying $35/month (in current-day dollars) for a Sox-Bulls-Hawks RSN. That would be a flop today just like it was in 1982.

I don't care what his apologists say, his track record with the Sox deserves criticism and the same cynicism with which he treated Sox fans back in the pay TV/move to Florida days.

DumpJerry
10-21-2014, 08:51 PM
I think Steelrod has a point, the reality of St. Petersburg notwithstanding. Charlie Finley was probably as visionary an owner as baseball had had in my lifetime, although his eye for talent and what went into winning only worked with draft and the reserve clause allowing him to build winning teams.

Without Finley, the American League probably wouldn't have the DH. The facts that no one adopted designated runners or three-ball walks and Finley had greater faith in Oakland than Kansas City as a baseball market doesn't negate everything else.
Don't forget Charlie's orange balls (http://www.hardballtimes.com/tht-live/40th-anniversary-the-orange-baseball-experiment/).

Golden Sox
10-22-2014, 08:39 AM
Einhorns Sportsvision was one of the biggest flops in TV history. The City of Chicago was not wired for cable at the time and you had to buy a box to see Sportsvision. It not only was expensive but the concept was crazy. Most people would rather watch the Cubs for free on a Superstation as opposed to buying a box to watch one channel. I always thought the failure of Sportsvision wounded Einhorn tremendously. He was the one who wanted to move the White Sox to Florida. If it would of been up to him the White Sox would be in St. Pete today. He would of rather been a big fish in a small pond (St. Pete) rather than play second fiddle to the Cubs here in Chicago. After the White Sox stayed in Chicago he sold most of his shares in the White Sox to JR. He has rarely been seen in Chicago since 1990. I've always thought that Sportsvision and the building and handling of the new park were two of the biggest mistakes in the history of the franchise.

Southsider101
10-22-2014, 01:44 PM
Montreal, please build a major league ball park!

SI1020
10-22-2014, 02:59 PM
Einhorns Sportsvision was one of the biggest flops in TV history. The City of Chicago was not wired for cable at the time and you had to buy a box to see Sportsvision. It not only was expensive but the concept was crazy. Most people would rather watch the Cubs for free on a Superstation as opposed to buying a box to watch one channel. I always thought the failure of Sportsvision wounded Einhorn tremendously. He was the one who wanted to move the White Sox to Florida. If it would of been up to him the White Sox would be in St. Pete today. He would of rather been a big fish in a small pond (St. Pete) rather than play second fiddle to the Cubs here in Chicago. After the White Sox stayed in Chicago he sold most of his shares in the White Sox to JR. He has rarely been seen in Chicago since 1990. I've always thought that Sportsvision and the building and handling of the new park were two of the biggest mistakes in the history of the franchise. They also tried to sell Sportsvision when Chicago and the entire nation were in the midst of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.

thomas35forever
10-24-2014, 12:32 PM
Per Buster Olney on Twitter, Maddon has stepped down. Suddenly, that team has a whole new identity.

Domeshot17
10-24-2014, 12:34 PM
I have not been on the fire Robin bandwagon, but if Maddon's exit is not health related, fire Robin and get him here immediately.

DrCrawdad
10-24-2014, 12:41 PM
I have not been on the fire Robin bandwagon, but if Maddon's exit is not health related, fire Robin and get him here immediately.

I agree! Get it done!!!

Boondock Saint
10-24-2014, 12:50 PM
I have not been on the fire Robin bandwagon, but if Maddon's exit is not health related, fire Robin and get him here immediately.

I agree! Get it done!!!

Agreed. Get him on the phone yesterday.

BleacherBandit
10-24-2014, 12:51 PM
Agreed. Get him on the phone yesterday.

We have to get in line with a dozen other teams...

Boondock Saint
10-24-2014, 12:52 PM
We have to get in line with a dozen other teams...

You fail to score on 100% of the shots you don't take.

BleacherBandit
10-24-2014, 01:06 PM
You fail to score on 100% of the shots you don't take.

---Wayne Gretzky
---Boondock Saint (2014).

ChiSoxNationPres
10-24-2014, 01:26 PM
Getting him or Mattingly would be a significant upgrade in my eyes over Robin.

Boondock Saint
10-24-2014, 01:29 PM
---Wayne Gretzky
---Boondock Saint (2014).

I guess legends think alike. :tiphat:

dwitt76
10-24-2014, 01:35 PM
getting him or mattingly would be a significant upgrade in my eyes over robin.

+100

Marqhead
10-24-2014, 01:39 PM
No way the Sox go after Maddon. Not saying they shouldn't, but they wont.

Don't get your hopes up guys, it eases the disappointment.

MeteorsSox4367
10-24-2014, 01:42 PM
I live a few blocks from Midway. I would gladly pick up Maddon and drive him to the Cell for the interview. I'd even spring for lunch in Bridgeport.

beasly213
10-24-2014, 03:21 PM
You fail to score on 100% of the shots you don't take.

-Wayne Gretzky
-Michael Scott

thomas35forever
12-08-2014, 08:20 PM
Where do you suppose they'll look? Montreal? Portland? Vegas?
http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/12/08/tampa-bay-rays-stadium-hillsborough-county

Marqhead
12-08-2014, 08:47 PM
Where do you suppose they'll look? Montreal? Portland? Vegas?
http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/12/08/tampa-bay-rays-stadium-hillsborough-county

The article says they can only look in the neighboring counties....so I suppose they'll look there. :cool:

Lemon44
12-08-2014, 11:29 PM
Here's a look at possible Tampa sites:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/tampa-officials-search-for-possible-new-rays-stadium-sites/2209260

And full coverage of today's announcement:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/rays-and-kriseman-reach-agreement-to-allow-hillsborough-stadium-search/2209447

Golden Sox
12-10-2014, 11:08 AM
Maybe Eddie Einhorn will buy the Rays. When he wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete he said Florida was the greatest opportunity for MLB since the Dodgers moved west in 1958.

Steelrod
12-10-2014, 07:14 PM
Maybe Eddie Einhorn will buy the Rays. When he wanted to move the White Sox to St. Pete he said Florida was the greatest opportunity for MLB since the Dodgers moved west in 1958.

Don't believe everything you read. (or hear)

LITTLE NELL
12-19-2014, 03:24 PM
http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/a-day-after-rays-deal-fall-apart-council-member-urges-cooling-off-period/2210855

My gut feeling is the Rays are not long for the TB area, they are dumping ballplayers all over the place. Price traded last year, Joyce and Myers traded within the last 2 days, could Longoria be next. And of course they let Maddon walk away to the Flubs.