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WhiteSoxNation
01-24-2013, 03:47 PM
1. Peavy ---3.37ERA
2. Sale ---3.05ERA
3. Floyd ---4.29ERA
4. Danks ---4.12(career)
5. Qunitana ---3.76ERA

CL-Reed ---4.75ERA
SU-Crain ---2.44ERA
SU-Thornton ---3.46ERA
MR-Lindstrom ---2.61ERA
MR-Veal ---1.38ERA
MR-Jones ---2.39ERA
LR/MR- Santiago ---3.33ERA

Barring some injuries or trades, or disastrous spring training outings (which really don't matter) We have our 2013 Pitchers set. Even if Peavy, Sale, and Quintana come back to reality a little we still have 5 starters with sub 4 era potential this year. Our Bullpen has some skewed ERAs (Thornton/Reed).

Should be a well pitched season on the Southside this year.

Realistically, only openings are 1-2 Bench spots

hawkjt
01-25-2013, 10:28 AM
It has to be the strength of the club,again this year. It definitely looks good on paper. If the offense produces at all, they should be in the hunt again,unless the Tigers run away with it.

blandman
01-25-2013, 10:31 AM
1. Peavy ---3.37ERA
2. Sale ---3.05ERA
3. Floyd ---4.29ERA
4. Danks ---4.12(career)
5. Qunitana ---3.76ERA

CL-Reed ---4.75ERA
SU-Crain ---2.44ERA
SU-Thornton ---3.46ERA
MR-Lindstrom ---2.61ERA
MR-Veal ---1.38ERA
MR-Jones ---2.39ERA
LR/MR- Santiago ---3.33ERA

Barring some injuries or trades, or disastrous spring training outings (which really don't matter) We have our 2013 Pitchers set. Even if Peavy, Sale, and Quintana come back to reality a little we still have 5 starters with sub 4 era potential this year. Our Bullpen has some skewed ERAs (Thornton/Reed).

Should be a well pitched season on the Southside this year.

Realistically, only openings are 1-2 Bench spots

It's a decent staff, and an even better pen. The problem is injury concerns for 4 of our starters. Santiago helps a bit, but we've got nothing in the pipe after that. Depth of pitching could really come and bite us in the ass. All of our pitching "talent" close to ready in the minors are hard throwing short inning relievers.

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2013, 10:32 AM
1. Peavy ---3.37ERA
2. Sale ---3.05ERA
3. Floyd ---4.29ERA
4. Danks ---4.12(career)
5. Qunitana ---3.76ERA

CL-Reed ---4.75ERA
SU-Crain ---2.44ERA
SU-Thornton ---3.46ERA
MR-Lindstrom ---2.61ERA
MR-Veal ---1.38ERA
MR-Jones ---2.39ERA
LR/MR- Santiago ---3.33ERA

Barring some injuries or trades, or disastrous spring training outings (which really don't matter) We have our 2013 Pitchers set. Even if Peavy, Sale, and Quintana come back to reality a little we still have 5 starters with sub 4 era potential this year. Our Bullpen has some skewed ERAs (Thornton/Reed).

Should be a well pitched season on the Southside this year.

Realistically, only openings are 1-2 Bench spots

Skewed as in bad?

Reed was not good last year.

blandman
01-25-2013, 10:36 AM
Skewed as in bad?

Reed was not good last year.

That's a little overly critical. He was bad as a closer, but his numbers are hurt by some particularly bad outings. He had some really good stretches, and he's certainly got the talent to succeed in any pen role.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 10:45 AM
It's a decent staff, and an even better pen. The problem is injury concerns for 4 of our starters. Santiago helps a bit, but we've got nothing in the pipe after that. Depth of pitching could really come and bite us in the ass. All of our pitching "talent" close to ready in the minors are hard throwing short inning relievers.

Depth of pitching is an issue for almost every team, though. I can't think of too many organizations that can withstand losing any of their top 4 expected starters for too long.

Reed was not good last year.

As a closer he was all right. 29 of 33 saves in one's rookie year is nothing to scoff at. And at very least, the bullpen is pretty deep even into the AAA level, so if Reed falls apart there are more then enough options to relieve him.

blandman
01-25-2013, 11:10 AM
Depth of pitching is an issue for almost every team, though. I can't think of too many organizations that can withstand losing any of their top 4 expected starters for too long.


Of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that we've go four guys who are likely to spend time on the DL and have spent lots of time on the DL the last few years (the exception being Sale, but honestly I feel he's the most likely to be injured).

WhiteSoxNation
01-25-2013, 12:02 PM
29 of 33 is not a bad year. No one really judges closer by ERA anyway.

Plus I think this year Reed will start to bury his slider upping his K% Resulting in, most likely a lower BABip

doublem23
01-25-2013, 12:08 PM
29 of 33 is not a bad year. No one really judges closer by ERA anyway.

Plus I think this year Reed will start to bury his slider upping his K% Resulting in, most likely a lower BABip

Saves are kind of a useless stat so I wouldn't worry too much about it any way, just pointing out that by and large, Reed was pretty good last year with small lapses in performance (but he was a rookie, so you know, it's OK).

His problems seem to be more mental than mechanical. Article in the Trib today said that when he fell behind 1-0 in the count last year, he had like a .334 BAA. Obviously that's what he's got to work on. But again, I am confident there are enough contigency arms in this bullpen that it's not a concern for me going into this season. My biggest fear is that the Sox offense won't give him enough opportunities to rack up the saves.

SoxNation05
01-25-2013, 05:23 PM
Just got off the phone with John Danks.

I asked him how healthy he is and it sounds like all is going well. He said he started throwing off the mound a couple of weeks ago he feels good, no tightness. John went on say that he's going to start spinning breaking balls soon and should be ready to go for opening day!

I mean that is coming straight from the source but it sounds good. Hopefully we get John back to form and healthy.

sullythered
01-27-2013, 01:03 PM
Of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that we've go four guys who are likely to spend time on the DL and have spent lots of time on the DL the last few years (the exception being Sale, but honestly I feel he's the most likely to be injured).

Why? He has never been seriously injured.

FielderJones
01-27-2013, 04:01 PM
Why? He has never been seriously injured.

:chickenlittle
"Inverted W!!"

SoxSpeed22
01-27-2013, 04:49 PM
Last year, Reed was fantastic in getting the first two guys out, then had trouble getting the last out. If he polishes his changeup and features that more often, he can be more effective. He also learned some things about setting hitters up and putting them away.

blandman
01-27-2013, 07:43 PM
Why? He has never been seriously injured.

Okay, let's assume he doesn't have the worst form in baseball and the frailest possible frame of every pitcher in baseball. Or that on multiple occasions he had to be taken out of the rotation and rest because his body couldn't hold up (maybe it was some other reason, like his birthday twice last year).

Can we please not say incredibly not useful things like "why" to things that have been repeated over and over and over by every damn scout, tv personality, expert, general manager, people who watch baseball like religion, and even people who just know what baseball is but have never seen it? You know what they call people who don't think Sale is going to seriously hurt himself? White Sox fans. We're it. So while of course you don't assume Sale is 100% going to get hurt, can we PLEASE at least acknowledge that every other ****ing person on the planet thinks he's going to, and has a laundry list of reasons why? Ignoring it doesn't make it not so.

sullythered
01-27-2013, 08:54 PM
Okay, let's assume he doesn't have the worst form in baseball and the frailest possible frame of every pitcher in baseball. Or that on multiple occasions he had to be taken out of the rotation and rest because his body couldn't hold up (maybe it was some other reason, like his birthday twice last year).

Can we please not say incredibly not useful things like "why" to things that have been repeated over and over and over by every damn scout, tv personality, expert, general manager, people who watch baseball like religion, and even people who just know what baseball is but have never seen it? You know what they call people who don't think Sale is going to seriously hurt himself? White Sox fans. We're it. So while of course you don't assume Sale is 100% going to get hurt, can we PLEASE at least acknowledge that every other ****ing person on the planet thinks he's going to, and has a laundry list of reasons why? Ignoring it doesn't make it not so.

None of this is true. And giving a first time starter rest for a start here and there is very commonplace. As usual, you are overstating things to a comical degree.

fuzzy_patters
01-27-2013, 09:08 PM
According to yesterday's Sun-Times, Sale has gained 10-15 pounds as a result of off-season strength training. That should help.

blandman
01-27-2013, 09:58 PM
None of this is true. And giving a first time starter rest for a start here and there is very commonplace. As usual, you are overstating things to a comical degree.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's like you live in a vacuum. You've only listened to Hawk talk about the White Sox, you turn away every time sale throws a pitch, and you've somehow imagined him weighing about 40 pounds of muscle more than he has.

Listen, you wanna live like no opinion outside the teams opinion exists, even when it's the only opinion that agrees with you, fine. But don't call me names just because you can't look at the other (majority) perspective on the matter.

blandman
01-27-2013, 09:58 PM
According to yesterday's Sun-Times, Sale has gained 10-15 pounds as a result of off-season strength training. That should help.

30 more and a new throwing motion would help a lot more.

sullythered
01-28-2013, 09:35 PM
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's like you live in a vacuum. You've only listened to Hawk talk about the White Sox, you turn away every time sale throws a pitch, and you've somehow imagined him weighing about 40 pounds of muscle more than he has.

Listen, you wanna live like no opinion outside the teams opinion exists, even when it's the only opinion that agrees with you, fine. But don't call me names just because you can't look at the other (majority) perspective on the matter.

No, dude. I read and listen to myriad sources. The experts have some concerns. Some. And, so far unfounded. Early on, the same people had concerns about Verlander's delivery. As always, you overstate so hard that your "point" is completely lost.

WhiteSoxNation
02-05-2013, 08:50 PM
We should release Sale because the "experts" say he throws different :rolleyes:

See Tim Lincecum/Trevor Bauer


Sale's motion is actually more normal on the human body than someone who throws 3/4 or over the top

blandman
02-05-2013, 09:12 PM
No, dude. I read and listen to myriad sources. The experts have some concerns. Some. And, so far unfounded. Early on, the same people had concerns about Verlander's delivery. As always, you overstate so hard that your "point" is completely lost.

You know, other than an 8 mph drop in his fastball three times in the same season necessitating being taken out of the rotation twice (the third time was at the end of the season). Oh, and you know, our pitching coach doesn't think he can hold up as a starter and fought with Sale and Robin on that topic.

Show me the expert that talks about Chris Sale without warning. Where is this mysterious person, this scout extraordinaire? I wanna read that article, where the scout says Sale's mechanic's are sound. Where his body type isn't an issue long term. Where is this scout? Where is the team employing this scout? I wanna work for that team, they obviously don't care whether or not you actually "scout".

Saying I overstate a point without proving a point of your own is getting kind of tiring. You have an opinion. But until you bring something to the table, I'm under the impression it's based on nothing but kool-aid.

Falstaff
02-06-2013, 12:47 AM
You know, other than an 8 mph drop in his fastball three times in the same season necessitating being taken out of the rotation twice (the third time was at the end of the season). Oh, and you know, our pitching coach doesn't think he can hold up as a starter and fought with Sale and Robin on that topic.

Show me the expert that talks about Chris Sale without warning. Where is this mysterious person, this scout extraordinaire? I wanna read that article, where the scout says Sale's mechanic's are sound. Where his body type isn't an issue long term. Where is this scout? Where is the team employing this scout? I wanna work for that team, they obviously don't care whether or not you actually "scout".

Saying I overstate a point without proving a point of your own is getting kind of tiring. You have an opinion. But until you bring something to the table, I'm under the impression it's based on nothing but kool-aid.
Right! And since basically nobody maintains 97MPH thru entire career, I have been harping on Chris to develop more offspeedo junk, and particularly the knuckle-curve. If going to pitch in MLB need to be effective even when the heater is not so hot. How about a trickier changup and throw it like
40%? That will give you mini-siesta right in the middle of a game, preserve the arm. Need to remain in top form through a long world series campaign.
Glad to hear he is bench pressing etc and putting on some meat.

blandman
02-06-2013, 11:06 AM
Right! And since basically nobody maintains 97MPH thru entire career, I have been harping on Chris to develop more offspeedo junk, and particularly the knuckle-curve. If going to pitch in MLB need to be effective even when the heater is not so hot. How about a trickier changup and throw it like
40%? That will give you mini-siesta right in the middle of a game, preserve the arm. Need to remain in top form through a long world series campaign.
Glad to hear he is bench pressing etc and putting on some meat.

I don't know much about the mechanics of a knuckle-curve...anyone got anything on this?

WhiteSoxNation
02-06-2013, 05:01 PM
Right! And since basically nobody maintains 97MPH thru entire career, I have been harping on Chris to develop more offspeedo junk, and particularly the knuckle-curve. If going to pitch in MLB need to be effective even when the heater is not so hot. How about a trickier changup and throw it like
40%? That will give you mini-siesta right in the middle of a game, preserve the arm. Need to remain in top form through a long world series campaign.
Glad to hear he is bench pressing etc and putting on some meat.

Not sure how throwing off speed preserves the arm......since you throw them with the same arm action/effort as a fastball......There were several starts when his FB was hitting at 91-93 and he was plenty effective.

WLL1855
02-06-2013, 07:25 PM
Saying I overstate a point without proving a point of your own is getting kind of tiring. You have an opinion. But until you bring something to the table, I'm under the impression it's based on nothing but kool-aid.

I eagerly await the day Sale ends up on the DL just so you get the pleasure of spiking the football on your prediction.

Sweet Jesus this is some dour **** you are on.

Tragg
02-06-2013, 11:49 PM
I like the staff a lot. Should be better than last year.
The rest of the team, however....

Falstaff
02-07-2013, 01:24 AM
Not sure how throwing off speed preserves the arm......since you throw them with the same arm action/effort as a fastball......There were several starts when his FB was hitting at 91-93 and he was plenty effective.
Wilbur Wood used to throw like 360 innings / year no problemo. That is an extreme case but illustrates the point. Throw a knuckle curve from that Sale arm slot would be near unhittable ask Burt Hooten.

blandman
02-07-2013, 09:18 AM
I eagerly await the day Sale ends up on the DL just so you get the pleasure of spiking the football on your prediction.

Sweet Jesus this is some dour **** you are on.

Oh bull ****. It's not anything that isn't 100% the main opinion of experts out there. Like I said, where is the scout saying otherwise? Where is the article without the dire predictions? It's not a given, but most everyone who's opinion matters thinks its a given. If you're going to lambast me as negative, you need to bring some proof of the positive to the table. Just calling me negative for relaying a fact to you is childish.

SCCWS
02-07-2013, 09:47 AM
Of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that we've go four guys who are likely to spend time on the DL and have spent lots of time on the DL the last few years (the exception being Sale, but honestly I feel he's the most likely to be injured).

I think you are overreacting. Sale may have the chance to go down w an injury, but I think w Danks coming back from one and Peavy's history, Sale is not the most likely.

Domeshot17
02-07-2013, 09:55 AM
To be fair to Munch, a TON of experts project Sale's delivery to cause arm problems. This is not just ESPN. Heck, our own scouts were torn on his best role and our president and manager thought he should be a closer. It is not a non issue. That said, it also is not a major issue until injuries do pop up. It is just something to monitor, not ignore.

That said, A knuckle curve would not be a good pitch for Sale's arm angle. I threw one in college and still break it off in my men's league know and then, and it is tough to throw from the side because you really have to get on top of it and spike it. Sale's breaking ball is perfect for his arm angle, that slider is one of the 10 best pitches in baseball. His changeup has a TON of potential and might ultimately be his best pitch.

For Sale, he is doing what he has to do. He got to where he is by being a thrower, just over powering guys. If he wants to be an SP, he has to learn to pitch. Know how to get outs by dialing down his velocity, placing the changeup and making the slider disappear. Sometimes, you just have to hope a guy holds up. I am sure plenty of scouts today would spazz out and try and make Randy Johnson a closer as well.

SoxSpeed22
02-07-2013, 10:06 AM
Randy Johnson would have to be the best blueprint for Sale, given his delivery and his slider. Johnson had some injury problems when he was younger. I figured if Sale was going to get a big injury, it would have been last year, but it didn't happen.
A knuckle curve is more fitting for someone with a much higher delivery than Sale, and over the top. Verlander stopped using it thanks to blistering. I would be cool with Hector or Nate learning one though.

WLL1855
02-07-2013, 07:28 PM
Oh bull ****. It's not anything that isn't 100% the main opinion of experts out there. Like I said, where is the scout saying otherwise? Where is the article without the dire predictions? It's not a given, but most everyone who's opinion matters thinks its a given. If you're going to lambast me as negative, you need to bring some proof of the positive to the table. Just calling me negative for relaying a fact to you is childish.

You've got some pretty ironclad language there. Opinions are facts now? I'm guessing you aren't unfamiliar with the taste of crow.

Until the disaster happens, I'd say the burden of proof Sale is unavoidably on track for surgery is on you. Maybe he gets an serious injury a some point in his career (not exactly a rare occurrence with baseball players, especially pitchers) Perhaps he doesn't. It's a bit premature to book the OR with Dr. James Andrews at this point.

blandman
02-07-2013, 11:32 PM
You've got some pretty ironclad language there. Opinions are facts now? I'm guessing you aren't unfamiliar with the taste of crow.

Until the disaster happens, I'd say the burden of proof Sale is unavoidably on track for surgery is on you. Maybe he gets an serious injury a some point in his career (not exactly a rare occurrence with baseball players, especially pitchers) Perhaps he doesn't. It's a bit premature to book the OR with Dr. James Andrews at this point.

You are completely ignoring what I am saying.

Sale getting injured is not a fact. I have not said Sale WILL get injured.

That scouts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That experts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That members of the White Sox organization believe Sale will be injured is a fact.

It's what everyone who matters thinks will happen. Deal with it. And do it without people words in peoples mouths.

Nellie_Fox
02-07-2013, 11:39 PM
...That scouts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That experts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.You have access to the opinions of ALL scouts and ALL "experts?" I'm impressed.

blandman
02-07-2013, 11:44 PM
You have access to the opinions of ALL scouts and ALL "experts?" I'm impressed.

All who have bothered to speak on the matter don't share your optimism. And lots have cared to share.

And I despise points like this. It's a straw man argument. There isn't evidence to back your assertion, but he MIGHT exist? Yeah. I admit it. Someone might have a different opinion on the matter. That doesn't make it not an extreme outlier.

Nellie_Fox
02-08-2013, 12:05 AM
All who have bothered to speak on the matter don't share your optimism. And lots have cared to share.

And I despise points like this. It's a straw man argument. There isn't evidence to back your assertion, but he MIGHT exist? Yeah. I admit it. Someone might have a different opinion on the matter. That doesn't make it not an extreme outlier.What optimism? I haven't taken a position on the matter at all. I was merely pointing out that you claimed to know the opinion of ALL scouts and ALL "experts" on the matter. I'm skeptical that you personally know the opinion of even a substantial portion of either. And what I did does not remotely meet the definition of a "straw-man argument." I did not assign you a position you did not take and then knock that down. You exaggerated your claim to lend undeserved credibility to it.

Falstaff
02-08-2013, 02:38 AM
OK OK. I still believe Chris Sale long term success/endurance lies in him developing the off speedo junque, be it change-up, slurve, eephus, forkball, scroogie, or knuckle-curve. About that last one: take a look at the Burt Hooten story and marvel. Am glad Chris put on some weight, am thinking also he needs to get those heavy pitching shoes that add momentum to your stride and torque to your twist.

sullythered
02-08-2013, 03:00 PM
That scouts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That experts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That members of the White Sox organization believe Sale will be injured is a fact.


Ha! The only one that you got close to correct is your third assertion. The first two are just impossible for you to know, on top of being just so overwhelmingly unlikely. The last assertion should have been phrased, "some members of the White Sox organization have concerns over Sale's ability to maintain the number of innings that come with being a starter."

You would be so much better at debate if you didn't overstate so wildly.

Frater Perdurabo
02-08-2013, 03:03 PM
You would be so much better at debate if you didn't overstate so wildly.

You are wrong all the time because everyone disagrees with you.

:)

blandman
02-08-2013, 03:10 PM
Ha! The only one that you got close to correct is your third assertion. The first two are just impossible for you to know, on top of being just so overwhelmingly unlikely. The last assertion should have been phrased, "some members of the White Sox organization have concerns over Sale's ability to maintain the number of innings that come with being a starter."

You would be so much better at debate if you didn't overstate so wildly.

Like I said before, if anyone says any different, their opinion isn't public knowledge. And scouts are pretty vocal people who talk to the media whenever they get a chance. Have you even met one before? Most have strong opinions and never shut up about them.

Look. Let's put it this way. Everyone's argument against me is semantics. There is nothing to challenge the notion that the opinion I've provided on Sale isn't as close to a rock solid expert opinion that you're going to find. Do something to prove that's not the case instead of making pointless arguments about semantics.

Nellie_Fox
02-08-2013, 03:19 PM
Like I said before, if anyone says any different, their opinion isn't public knowledge. And scouts are pretty vocal people who talk to the media whenever they get a chance. Have you even met one before? Most have strong opinions and never shut up about them.You said "all." Don't try to change it now. Of course, those who have an opinion are going to be more vocal than those who don't. Nobody is going to say "player X will never get injured" because that's ridiculous. So, they'll either have an opinion that player X will get injured, or not have an opinion. Those who have no opinion generally will be silent on it.

You backed yourself into a corner; admit it. YOU think he's going to get injured, and you invented a unanimity of opinion among "experts and scouts" that doesn't exist to support your position.

sullythered
02-08-2013, 03:26 PM
Like I said before, if anyone says any different, their opinion isn't public knowledge. And scouts are pretty vocal people who talk to the media whenever they get a chance. Have you even met one before? Most have strong opinions and never shut up about them.

Look. Let's put it this way. Everyone's argument against me is semantics. There is nothing to challenge the notion that the opinion I've provided on Sale isn't as close to a rock solid expert opinion that you're going to find. Do something to prove that's not the case instead of making pointless arguments about semantics.

Yes, I have met scouts and a couple former GMs. Roland Hemond was a super nice guy, BTW. The fact that Chris Sale was drafted, at all, proves your theory that all scouts believe he will absolutely get hurt is incorrect. When you start with an impossible-to-prove absolute as an argument, you've lost already.

Had you argued, say, "I worry that Chris Sale's frame and delivery put him at great risk and many experts on the subject agree with me," your argument would be valid. But no, you always decide to go with grandiose absolute statements that undermine your argument immediately.

As far as the argument about Sale's health goes, I am not as concerned. I think that if he was going to have a major injury, the most likely year it would have occurred in was last season (his first pitching close to 200 innings). He didn't get hurt. That argument has nothing to do with semantics. It is based on reality. And I didn't overstate anything, undermining my point.

blandman
02-08-2013, 04:08 PM
Yes, I have met scouts and a couple former GMs. Roland Hemond was a super nice guy, BTW. The fact that Chris Sale was drafted, at all, proves your theory that all scouts believe he will absolutely get hurt is incorrect. When you start with an impossible-to-prove absolute as an argument, you've lost already.

Had you argued, say, "I worry that Chris Sale's frame and delivery put him at great risk and many experts on the subject agree with me," your argument would be valid. But no, you always decide to go with grandiose absolute statements that undermine your argument immediately.

As far as the argument about Sale's health goes, I am not as concerned. I think that if he was going to have a major injury, the most likely year it would have occurred in was last season (his first pitching close to 200 innings). He didn't get hurt. That argument has nothing to do with semantics. It is based on reality. And I didn't overstate anything, undermining my point.

Oh I see. So it's negative to believe that he's likely to get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter, but it's perfectly okay to believe there's little reason to believe he'll get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter. Because, you know, kool-aid. Got it. As long as that's your take and not based on anything solid. Just making sure we understand each other. And that after six pages you haven't once made a legitimate counterpoint to the notion and continue to argue semantics.

BTW, if you knew anything about that draft, you'd know that Sale fell to us BECAUSE of his injury concerns, and because most scouts felt that for him to have a successful career, he'd be in the pen.

blandman
02-08-2013, 04:09 PM
You said "all." Don't try to change it now. Of course, those who have an opinion are going to be more vocal than those who don't. Nobody is going to say "player X will never get injured" because that's ridiculous. So, they'll either have an opinion that player X will get injured, or not have an opinion. Those who have no opinion generally will be silent on it.

You backed yourself into a corner; admit it. YOU think he's going to get injured, and you invented a unanimity of opinion among "experts and scouts" that doesn't exist to support your position.

Yeah, like 12 posts ago I altered it.

And seriously, WHAT THE **** is the difference between what I said and people claiming there's no reason to believe he'll get hurt. That's not only an absolute, it's ****ing flat out wrong.

delben91
02-08-2013, 04:16 PM
All scouts agree that Sale is no guaranteed hall of famer like Fautino de los Santos. :(:

sullythered
02-08-2013, 04:37 PM
Oh I see. So it's negative to believe that he's likely to get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter, but it's perfectly okay to believe there's little reason to believe he'll get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter. Because, you know, kool-aid. Got it. As long as that's your take and not based on anything solid. Just making sure we understand each other. And that after six pages you haven't once made a legitimate counterpoint to the notion and continue to argue semantics.

BTW, if you knew anything about that draft, you'd know that Sale fell to us BECAUSE of his injury concerns, and because most scouts felt that for him to have a successful career, he'd be in the pen.

Do you even read these posts before you respond. You made an absolute statement, that I pointed out as incorrect. I even gave an example of the correct way to argue your side of the argument. I agree that there is some concern. I also argued that if those concerns were going to come to fruition, it would have most likely happened in the first season in which Sale was heavily taxed, inning-wise. He did not get hurt in that season. That isn't Kool-Aid, or semantics. I'm basing my opinion on, you know, stuff that actually has happened. Can Sale still get hurt? Sure. Is it much, much more promising that the concerns of some scouts might not come true, being that he just got through a near-200 inning year without injury. Yes.

And, Mr. Snarky-pants, if you knew anything about the draft, you would know that Sale dropped because he wanted a guarantee that he would be on the major league roster immediately, so as to start his arbitration clock.

Edit: Also, he fell about 5 spots from projections. Hardly a free-fall.

blandman
02-08-2013, 06:06 PM
Do you even read these posts before you respond. You made an absolute statement, that I pointed out as incorrect. I even gave an example of the correct way to argue your side of the argument. I agree that there is some concern. I also argued that if those concerns were going to come to fruition, it would have most likely happened in the first season in which Sale was heavily taxed, inning-wise. He did not get hurt in that season. That isn't Kool-Aid, or semantics. I'm basing my opinion on, you know, stuff that actually has happened. Can Sale still get hurt? Sure. Is it much, much more promising that the concerns of some scouts might not come true, being that he just got through a near-200 inning year without injury. Yes.

And, Mr. Snarky-pants, if you knew anything about the draft, you would know that Sale dropped because he wanted a guarantee that he would be on the major league roster immediately, so as to start his arbitration clock.

Edit: Also, he fell about 5 spots from projections. Hardly a free-fall.

Okay, you know what. I apologize, you are basing it on something. You're just wrong about what you're basing it on. Sale DID get hurt last year. And he had performance issues three times because of it. Just because he wasn't on the DL doesn't mean he wasn't hurt.

Did you watch the draft? Even the experts there explained that Sale dropped because of issues with his frame and motion. Some even went as far as to say the White Sox reached because the guy was gonna spend his career in the pen.

blandman
02-08-2013, 06:07 PM
All scouts agree that Sale is no guaranteed hall of famer like Fautino de los Santos. :(:

That kid is electric.

DSpivack
02-08-2013, 06:15 PM
That kid is electric.

That kid is now 26 years old and a 5.80 ERA in AAA last season.

He was just claimed by the Padres after Milwaukee waived him.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/02/padres-claim-fautino-de-los-santos.html

sullythered
02-08-2013, 07:51 PM
Okay, you know what. I apologize, you are basing it on something. You're just wrong about what you're basing it on. Sale DID get hurt last year. And he had performance issues three times because of it. Just because he wasn't on the DL doesn't mean he wasn't hurt.

Did you watch the draft? Even the experts there explained that Sale dropped because of issues with his frame and motion. Some even went as far as to say the White Sox reached because the guy was gonna spend his career in the pen.

He was never injured. He pitched nearly 200 innings in his first year out of the pen. How you can extrapolate that a phantom injury that never occurred caused "performance issues" more than the much much more likely scenario that he had some fatigue because it was his first year pitching a starter's innings is beyond me. If he was hurt, the Sox (you know, the best training staff in sports) would have shut him down. Didn't happen. You seem to be the one preaching semantics. The evidence is on my side here.

Chris Sale was not considered a reach. He just wasn't.

blandman
02-08-2013, 10:11 PM
That kid is now 26 years old and a 5.80 ERA in AAA last season.

He was just claimed by the Padres after Milwaukee waived him.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/02/padres-claim-fautino-de-los-santos.html

Sarcasm man.

blandman
02-08-2013, 10:11 PM
He was never injured. He pitched nearly 200 innings in his first year out of the pen. How you can extrapolate that a phantom injury that never occurred caused "performance issues" more than the much much more likely scenario that he had some fatigue because it was his first year pitching a starter's innings is beyond me. If he was hurt, the Sox (you know, the best training staff in sports) would have shut him down. Didn't happen. You seem to be the one preaching semantics. The evidence is on my side here.

Chris Sale was not considered a reach. He just wasn't.

Your denial is beyond reproach.

:gulp:

Seriously though, if you're gonna pretend like dropping ten mph off a fastball is normal and not a break down of the body in some fashion, occuring not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES over the course of the year, I can't even talk to you. Just go about your business.

sullythered
02-08-2013, 10:29 PM
Your denial is beyond reproach.

:gulp:

Seriously though, if you're gonna pretend like dropping ten mph off a fastball is normal and not a break down of the body in some fashion, occuring not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES over the course of the year, I can't even talk to you. Just go about your business.

And if you don't think arm fatigue isnt totally normal for a guy in Chris Sale's position, you are in denial. Do yourself a favor and check out Justin Verlander's (another guy with a very dangerous delivery) numbers in his first season as a starter, also at 23 years of age. They are nearly identical to Sale's, splits showing signs of fatigue at points in the season. The primary difference is that Sale struck out a hell of a lot more batters than Verlander. Also, Verlander's points of fatigue hurt him a lot worse than Sale.

And at no point did Sale lose ten (HA!) MPH on his fastball. As a starter, he scaled back the heater to around 93 at the outset. He wasn't topping out at 83 at any point. It is hilarious to me when people pull these velocity numbers out of their asses.

DSpivack
02-08-2013, 10:53 PM
Sarcasm man.

Sorry. I saw that FDLS news and thought of WSI, anyway.

blandman
02-08-2013, 11:07 PM
And if you don't think arm fatigue isnt totally normal for a guy in Chris Sale's position, you are in denial. Do yourself a favor and check out Justin Verlander's (another guy with a very dangerous delivery) numbers in his first season as a starter, also at 23 years of age. They are nearly identical to Sale's, splits showing signs of fatigue at points in the season. The primary difference is that Sale struck out a hell of a lot more batters than Verlander. Also, Verlander's points of fatigue hurt him a lot worse than Sale.

And at no point did Sale lose ten (HA!) MPH on his fastball. As a starter, he scaled back the heater to around 93 at the outset. He wasn't topping out at 83 at any point. It is hilarious to me when people pull these velocity numbers out of their asses.


I'm done with this. Live in denial of facts all you want, comparing guys built like sticks with horrible form to the best pitcher in baseball. You win. I can't compete with that nonsense.

sullythered
02-08-2013, 11:28 PM
I'm done with this. Live in denial of facts all you want, comparing guys built like sticks with horrible form to the best pitcher in baseball. You win. I can't compete with that nonsense.

Verlander has a horribly violent delivery and in his first season as a starter, at the same age no less, was almost identical to Sale's, fatigue and all. So yeah, be dismissive all you want, the actual evidence lies with me. All you have is wind, as usual.

Edit: Actually, upon further review, Sale's first season as a starter was pretty significantly better than Verlander's.

blandman
02-09-2013, 08:36 AM
Verlander has a horribly violent delivery and in his first season as a starter, at the same age no less, was almost identical to Sale's, fatigue and all. So yeah, be dismissive all you want, the actual evidence lies with me. All you have is wind, as usual.

Edit: Actually, upon further review, Sale's first season as a starter was pretty significantly better than Verlander's.

Oh yeah, same guy. Other than the fact that Verlander's shorter and has 45 more pounds of muscle. And doesn't have the worst possible throwing motion in baseball in regards to injuries.

Believe what you want. I don't care, there's no taking your blinders off. Sale is the same as Verlander.

sullythered
02-09-2013, 12:11 PM
Oh yeah, same guy. Other than the fact that Verlander's shorter and has 45 more pounds of muscle. And doesn't have the worst possible throwing motion in baseball in regards to injuries.

Believe what you want. I don't care, there's no taking your blinders off. Sale is the same as Verlander.

Ugh. It's like talking to a wall. I didn't say they were the same guy. That is the type of overstatement you would make. I compared two pitchers with violent motions who had nearly identical years at the same age in their first full MLB starting seasons. The critics all thought Verlander would get hurt, too. It is as solid a comparison as can be made. Also, Verlander was much skinnier at 23 than he is currently.

I can also compare Sale to Max Scherzer, who has the worst possible throwing motion in baseball and actually HAS been hurt. He is vastly more likely to be badly hurt than Sale, based on stuff that has actually happened.

wilburaga
02-09-2013, 12:17 PM
That kid is now 26 years old and a 5.80 ERA in AAA last season.

He was just claimed by the Padres after Milwaukee waived him.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/02/padres-claim-fautino-de-los-santos.html

This transaction just beclouds the issue as to which cap DLS will wear to his enshrinement.

blandman
02-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Ugh. It's like talking to a wall. I didn't say they were the same guy. That is the type of overstatement you would make. I compared two pitchers with violent motions who had nearly identical years at the same age in their first full MLB starting seasons. The critics all thought Verlander would get hurt, too. It is as solid a comparison as can be made. Also, Verlander was much skinnier at 23 than he is currently.

I can also compare Sale to Max Scherzer, who has the worst possible throwing motion in baseball and actually HAS been hurt. He is vastly more likely to be badly hurt than Sale, based on stuff that has actually happened.

You CAN'T compare the two is the problem. Comparing Sale to Verlander to make your case...you might as well take a hitter and compare him to Verlander and make the same case. It makes absolutely no sense.

Chris Sale is FRAIL. I cannot make the letters large enough to indicate how FRAIL he is. He is 6'6'' and only 180 pounds. His BMI would say he is starving to death. (before you pick on this, that's a joke. BMI doesn't tell people they're starving).

On top of that, he has a motion that puts tremendous strain on his elbow, and evidence last year showed that on a few occassions already.

Verlander is shorter than Sale and weighs more. A lot more. Like a small person more. On top of that: HE HAS ABOUT THE MOST FLAWLESS PITCHING MECHANICS IN THE GAME. I can't speak on whether they were different his first year...but who cares? Did Sale do the same this offseason and learn to throw differently with pinpoint control, command, and no loss of speed? Comparing Sale to whatever you think Verlander used to be makes no sense because what Verlander is today is so far removed from that it has no basis in a rational argument.

Verlander is a once in a generation talent. It's foolish to compare anyone to him for any reason, unless it's another one of the all time greats.

Now...Max Scherzer does have a violent motion. Not as bad as Sale's, which puts significantly more stress on his elbow (Scherzer's follow through makes it look worse than it actually is). But Scherzer is shorter than even Verlander, and still outweighs Sale by 40 freakin' pounds.

blandman
02-09-2013, 12:42 PM
This transaction just beclouds the issue as to which cap DLS will wear to his enshrinement.

Obviously he will be wearing a White Sox hat. As soon as I'm GM, I'm reacquiring him to lead the staff for the next decade.

sullythered
02-09-2013, 01:05 PM
You CAN'T compare the two is the problem. Comparing Sale to Verlander to make your case...you might as well take a hitter and compare him to Verlander and make the same case. It makes absolutely no sense.

Chris Sale is FRAIL. I cannot make the letters large enough to indicate how FRAIL he is. He is 6'6'' and only 180 pounds. His BMI would say he is starving to death. (before you pick on this, that's a joke. BMI doesn't tell people they're starving).

On top of that, he has a motion that puts tremendous strain on his elbow, and evidence last year showed that on a few occassions already.

Verlander is shorter than Sale and weighs more. A lot more. Like a small person more. On top of that: HE HAS ABOUT THE MOST FLAWLESS PITCHING MECHANICS IN THE GAME. I can't speak on whether they were different his first year...but who cares? Did Sale do the same this offseason and learn to throw differently with pinpoint control, command, and no loss of speed? Comparing Sale to whatever you think Verlander used to be makes no sense because what Verlander is today is so far removed from that it has no basis in a rational argument.

Verlander is a once in a generation talent. It's foolish to compare anyone to him for any reason, unless it's another one of the all time greats.

Now...Max Scherzer does have a violent motion. Not as bad as Sale's, which puts significantly more stress on his elbow (Scherzer's follow through makes it look worse than it actually is). But Scherzer is shorter than even Verlander, and still outweighs Sale by 40 freakin' pounds.

Skinny and frail are not the same thing. Take a look at the UFC and tell me if all the skinny guys at the top of their divisions are "frail."

There is no such thing as "flawless pitching mechanics." It is a myth. There are violent deliveries and less violent deliveries. Verlander's is violent. It puts a lot of stress on his elbow, just like Sale's does. Whether Sale's ligaments will hold up like Verlander's remains to be seen, but I made the initial comparison because of the early speculation that Verlander would get hurt whiplashing the way he does, the eerily similar first seasons he and Sale had, and the fact that he has stayed healthy (despite early fears that he wouldn't).


To a separate point, I agree Verlander is probably the best pitcher in baseball, but he's not a once in a generation talent. I'm not completely convinced that King Felix isn't as good as him right now.

blandman
02-09-2013, 01:17 PM
Skinny and frail are not the same thing. Take a look at the UFC and tell me if all the skinny guys at the top of their divisions are "frail."

There is no such thing as "flawless pitching mechanics." It is a myth. There are violent deliveries and less violent deliveries. Verlander's is violent. It puts a lot of stress on his elbow, just like Sale's does. Whether Sale's ligaments will hold up like Verlander's remains to be seen, but I made the initial comparison because of the early speculation that Verlander would get hurt whiplashing the way he does, the eerily similar first seasons he and Sale had, and the fact that he has stayed healthy (despite early fears that he wouldn't).


To a separate point, I agree Verlander is probably the best pitcher in baseball, but he's not a once in a generation talent. I'm not completely convinced that King Felix isn't as good as him right now.

:scratch:

Man do yourself a favor and just google "justin verlander pitching mechanics". You use words like "violent" to describe things the world uses words like "smooth" for.

Justin Verlander is 6'5'' and 225 pounds. That is a very very big man. Even if you don't think Sale is frail (even if by baseball pitcher standards he's probably the most frail guy in the game right now), how you expect even a similar motion to affect both guys the same way is without an sort of rational basis, let alone one that is completely different in every way possible.

I can't really argue with you anymore because the position you're arguing from doesn't have a basis in reality to anyone else.

Frater Perdurabo
02-09-2013, 01:24 PM
This transaction just beclouds the issue as to which cap DLS will wear to his enshrinement.

Sterile surgical

sullythered
02-09-2013, 01:53 PM
:scratch:

Man do yourself a favor and just google "justin verlander pitching mechanics". You use words like "violent" to describe things the world uses words like "smooth" for.

Justin Verlander is 6'5'' and 225 pounds. That is a very very big man. Even if you don't think Sale is frail (even if by baseball pitcher standards he's probably the most frail guy in the game right now), how you expect even a similar motion to affect both guys the same way is without an sort of rational basis, let alone one that is completely different in every way possible.

I can't really argue with you anymore because the position you're arguing from doesn't have a basis in reality to anyone else.
I don't think you know what the word "frail" means. Skinny is not the same thing as frail. Not at all. A 300 lbs. man who is all muscle can be more frail than a very skinny man. Frailty has nothing to do with the visible build of someone.

And even if we disagree on whether Verlander's delivery is violent (it is), the whole reason that I compared the two players in the first place was to point out that even one of the most durable pitchers in the game (Verlander) had almost exactly the same small bouts of fatigue and difficulty in his first year starting as Chris Sale. In actuality, Verlander's bouts of fatigue in his first year were worse than Sale's. You, despite any evidence, attribute Sale's small bouts of difficulty (which you overstated, as usual) to injury, where I very much doubt you would have attributed Verlander's similar, but worse stretches as anything but fatigue.

Frater Perdurabo
02-09-2013, 02:01 PM
Career-threatening injuries are less about bones and muscles and body size, and more about ligaments and tendons, the strength and resilience of which are impossible for even the most experienced of scouts (and statisticians) to assess with any degree of certainty.

Since Sale hasn't had to have surgery, and none of us has operated on him, none of us are qualified to render an opinion on the strength and resilience of his tendons and ligaments.

sullythered
02-09-2013, 02:03 PM
Career-threatening injuries are less about bones and muscles and body size, and more about ligaments and tendons, the strength and resilience of which are impossible for even the most experienced of scouts (and statisticians) to assess with any degree of certainty.

Since Sale hasn't had to have surgery, and none of us has operated on him, none of us are qualified to render an opinion on the strength and resilience of his tendons and ligaments.

That was pretty much the point I was trying to make until I let myself get dragged into the munchiverse.

blandman
02-09-2013, 02:12 PM
Career-threatening injuries are less about bones and muscles and body size, and more about ligaments and tendons, the strength and resilience of which are impossible for even the most experienced of scouts (and statisticians) to assess with any degree of certainty.

Since Sale hasn't had to have surgery, and none of us has operated on him, none of us are qualified to render an opinion on the strength and resilience of his tendons and ligaments.

Oh for the love of God. First off, that's entirely mularky. Ligament and tendon strength can be indicated. Heck, I'm not even a doctor and I know there are tons of indicating factors for weak ligaments. Oh and hey, joint pain is one of them! So, I dont' know, if your elbow keeps flaring up and you can't throw as well, something's probably not strong enough to take it!

And secondly, people misuse the phrase "with any degree of certainty". There are degrees of certainty for injury projections. Scouts for every team make them. It's what they're paid to do.

blandman
02-09-2013, 02:13 PM
That was pretty much the point I was trying to make until I let myself get dragged into the munchiverse.

:happybday

blandman
02-09-2013, 03:36 PM
Okay I just can't let this go. Seriously Sully is about as off base as possible on Verlander, and I don't want people to leave this thread thinking, AT ALL, that his motion is considered violent. Verlander's motion is marveled at in the scouting community, because he is able to derive so much velocity with a minimal amount of shoulder-hip separation. The minimal amount of movement versus the velocity he creates is unparalleled at least in recent baseball history , probably all time (a large reason he is so special, because logic dictates this would minimize velocity in favor of control and less wear). There are thousands upon thousands of resources out there discussing this at length. For ANYONE to EVER claim that Justin Verlander's delivery is violent shows they have little knowledge or understanding of even the most basic of pitching mechanic dynamics.

sullythered
02-09-2013, 04:47 PM
Okay I just can't let this go. Seriously Sully is about as off base as possible on Verlander, and I don't want people to leave this thread thinking, AT ALL, that his motion is considered violent. Verlander's motion is marveled at in the scouting community, because he is able to derive so much velocity with a minimal amount of shoulder-hip separation. The minimal amount of movement versus the velocity he creates is unparalleled at least in recent baseball history , probably all time (a large reason he is so special, because logic dictates this would minimize velocity in favor of control and less wear). There are thousands upon thousands of resources out there discussing this at length. For ANYONE to EVER claim that Justin Verlander's delivery is violent shows they have little knowledge or understanding of even the most basic of pitching mechanic dynamics.

And yet he had arm fatigue and pain in his first year, and it showed in bursts of performance lag. The very same bursts of performance lag that Sale showed in a couple brief moments this past season. You used that as evidence against Sale, and it was wrong. That was my point. And again, there is no such thing as good pitching mechanics. Throwing overhand is not a natural human motion. Throwing as hard as Verlander does is absolutely violent. There was a time when people thought Mark Prior had "perfect mechanics." It's more about genetics than anything else.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for an example of when Sale was throwing an 83 mph fastball, as you mentioned earlier.

DonnieDarko
02-09-2013, 05:16 PM
Oh, and I'm still waiting for an example of when Sale was throwing an 83 mph fastball, as you mentioned earlier.

Same here. I remember the MPH on his Fastball decreasing to somewhere around 87-89, but a full 10 MPH off of it? I can't remember seeing that.

sullythered
02-09-2013, 05:24 PM
Same here. I remember the MPH on his Fastball decreasing to somewhere around 87-89, but a full 10 MPH off of it? I can't remember seeing that.

And even the drop to high 80's was for one game at a time, then he rebounded quickly. MUCH stronger evidence that it was fatigue than any kind of injury.

SephClone89
02-11-2013, 08:49 AM
And even the drop to high 80's was for one game at a time, then he rebounded quickly. MUCH stronger evidence that it was fatigue than any kind of injury.

Usually after a skipped start was when it would jump back up.