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View Full Version : Sox Trade Possibilities, Part II


doublem23
01-23-2013, 01:15 PM
Continued from here:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=136510

Carry on...

spawn
01-23-2013, 01:38 PM
:rolling: regarding munchman's assessment. Over the top as usual! All I have to do is remember his assessment df Derrick Rose being a bust of epic proportions to show how much I value his opinion. I mean, can you imagine the Bulls now had they drafted Michael Beasley as munch wanted? But dude...continue your hysterically overly dramatic rant! :rolling:

blandman
01-23-2013, 01:50 PM
Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who are likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?

SoxNation05
01-23-2013, 01:51 PM
When I saw the surge in the intial thread I thought a move was in the wings... :angry:

I never knew that blandman was munchman though.

He was the only person on the board that preferred Beasly over Rose back in that draft.

spawn
01-23-2013, 01:53 PM
Last year, a lot of "experts" picked the Sox to lose 90-95 games so... :shrug:

I'll say what I said before the season started last year...I'll wait for them to, I don't know, actually play the games before declaring the season lost. :cool:

sullythered
01-23-2013, 01:55 PM
Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?

Nobody has any idea if this team will be good or not. Just like last year. Until the big money comes off the books, they basically did what they could. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be better or worse than last year. There are players I look for improvement from (Reed, Santiago) and players I expect to perform to a lesser degree (Rios), but I have no idea what will happen. Neither do you.

sullythered
01-23-2013, 01:56 PM
When I saw the surge in the intial thread I thought a move was in the wings... :angry:

I never knew that blandman was munchman though.

He was the only person on the board that preferred Beasly over Rose back in that draft.

Epic bust.

SoxNation05
01-23-2013, 01:56 PM
Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who are likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?

John Danks.

The bullpen is better.

Reed should improve.

I personally think Viciedo and Beckham will get better at the plate.

Robin Ventura gaining a year experience.

We have two options at the #5 spot in the rotation rather than Phil Humber.

Keppinger is better than Morel and possibly better than Youkilis.

Rick Hahn has also said "we're not done" and Jerry Reinsdorf had said that our payroll still has flexibility.

spawn
01-23-2013, 01:57 PM
When I saw the surge in the intial thread I thought a move was in the wings... :angry:

I never knew that blandman was munchman though.

He was the only person on the board that preferred Beasly over Rose back in that draft.

Yep. Now, I don't fault anyone their opinions. But when your opinion is as overly dramatic as his generally are, that opinion tends to become background noise.

sullythered
01-23-2013, 01:59 PM
Yep. Now, I don't fault anyone their opinions. But when your opinion is as overly dramatic as his generally are, that opinion tends to become background noise.

Exactly. And the grandiose nature of the Rose "bust guarantee" is why people keep going back to it.

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:00 PM
Epic bust.

Get it right...he said a bust of epic proportions. :wink:

dickallen15
01-23-2013, 02:01 PM
Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who are likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?
The 2013 Tigers will be a bust of epic proportion.

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:02 PM
The 2013 Tigers will be a bust of epic proportion.

:rolling:

His overly dramatic statement that this team will be "a lot worse" speaks volumes.

SoxNation05
01-23-2013, 02:02 PM
Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who are likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?

What happened to the classic munchman33 account?

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:04 PM
Nobody has any idea if this team will be good or not. Just like last year. Until the big money comes off the books, they basically did what they could. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be better or worse than last year. There are players I look for improvement from (Reed, Santiago) and players I expect to perform to a lesser degree (Rios), but I have no idea what will happen. Neither do you.

Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.

John Danks.

The bullpen is better.

Reed should improve.

I personally think Viciedo and Beckham will get better at the plate.

Robin Ventura gaining a year experience.

We have two options at the #5 spot in the rotation rather than Phil Humber.

Keppinger is better than Morel and possibly better than Youkilis.

Rick Hahn has also said "we're not done" and Jerry Reinsdorf had said that our payroll still has flexibility.

The bullpen is better and Reed should improve are really the same thing. I don't think the bullpen was the problem last year though, and it's debatable how a better bullpen improves us.

I like our #5 options better than Humber. Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

John Danks probably won't be 100% this year, but even if he is our big problem is offense, of which we have very little.

Why do you think Beckham will get better at the plate? He's had over 1000 plate appearances and has only regressed.

I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...

Rocky Soprano
01-23-2013, 02:04 PM
What happened to the classic munchman33 account?

Munchie is back?!

Munch - you disappeared before paying on our Ozzie bet! :tongue:

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:05 PM
Get it right...he said a bust of epic proportions. :wink:


Jeez guys. Stop paraphrasing. I was obviously referring to his ACL. :tongue:

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:06 PM
Munchie is back?!

Munch - you disappeared before paying on our Ozzie bet! :tongue:

Disappeared, banned...same difference?

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:06 PM
John Danks.

The bullpen is better.

Reed should improve.

I personally think Viciedo and Beckham will get better at the plate.

Robin Ventura gaining a year experience.

We have two options at the #5 spot in the rotation rather than Phil Humber.

Keppinger is better than Morel and possibly better than Youkilis.

Rick Hahn has also said "we're not done" and Jerry Reinsdorf had said that our payroll still has flexibility.

Well, the Tigers have 5 Cy Young candidates in their rotation, and their lineup makes the '27 Yankees Murders Row look like a little league team. With Gold Gloves at every position, I don't see how this Tigers team doesn't sweep the AL Central, the Playoffs, and finally the World Series!

sullythered
01-23-2013, 02:07 PM
What happened to the classic munchman33 account?

Something overly dramatic, no doubt.

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:08 PM
Something overly dramatic, no doubt.
:rip:

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:09 PM
I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...

You were fairly confident Derrick Rose would be a bust. How did that prediction turn out again? :cool:

sullythered
01-23-2013, 02:10 PM
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.


Of course we can't, but you speak in more absolutes than a damn Sith Lord. It's baseball, and it's not crazy to think the Sox can even compete. The Tigers are the paper favorites. But the Sox are the next best team in the division, on paper, and sometimes the dog wins the race. They are not the embarrassment of a team you seem to believe them to be.

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:14 PM
What happened to the classic munchman33 account?

Something overly dramatic, no doubt.

He went down in an airplane.
Fried getting suntanned.
Fell in a cement mixer full of quicksand.
He met a shark underwater.
Fell and no one caught him.

He was caught in a mudslide.
Eaten by a lion.
Got run over by a crappy purple Scion.
He dried up in the desert.
Drowned in a hot tub.
Danced to death at an east side night club.

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:17 PM
Of course we can't, but you speak in more absolutes than a damn Sith Lord. It's baseball, and it's not crazy to think the Sox can even compete. The Tigers are the paper favorites. But the Sox are the next best team in the division, on paper, and sometimes the dog wins the race. They are not the embarrassment of a team you seem to believe them to be.

The next best team on paper is the Royals. They've made a lot of improvements this offseason. I know - probably debatable. But the big thing here is not so much who's the next best team. It's the incredible cavern between levels of talent. Especially on offense. We have no offense. Sure, maybe someone gets lucky and busts out. But the talent of the hitters we've compiled doesn't make that seem likely outside of maybe two or three guys. Is that enough to carry us to even a .500 finish? Only possibly. We need much more talented players on offense if we're gonna start talking about playoffs. Remember, our division got better around us. Even Cleveland got a little better.

dickallen15
01-23-2013, 02:19 PM
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.



The bullpen is better and Reed should improve are really the same thing. I don't think the bullpen was the problem last year though, and it's debatable how a better bullpen improves us.

I like our #5 options better than Humber. Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

John Danks probably won't be 100% this year, but even if he is our big problem is offense, of which we have very little.

Why do you think Beckham will get better at the plate? He's had over 1000 plate appearances and has only regressed.

I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...

If you are confident Viciedo won't improve they might as well start manufacturing his All Star jersey now. You said the same thing about Derrick Rose. Beasley was only going to get better and better. You really seem to be a good sport about your statements, I will give you that, but I am not going to take your personal scouting reports too seriously.

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:20 PM
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.

Like Derrick Rose being a bust of epic proportions?

And yes, whenever you make ludicrous statements like this, Derrick Rose will appear. Like magic! :wink:

doublem23
01-23-2013, 02:23 PM
Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

For much of the 2nd half of last season, Youkilis was a statue, completely unable to move at 3B, basically watching every ball hit to the left side of the IF roll past him. Perhaps when his knee is not bothering him, Youk is a better defensive 3B than Keppinger, but I have a hard time believing Keppinger will be much of a defensive downgrade than what Youkilis was able to give the Sox.

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:26 PM
For much of the 2nd half of last season, Youkilis was a statue, completely unable to move at 3B, basically watching every ball hit to the left side of the IF roll past him. Perhaps when his knee is not bothering him, Youk is a better defensive 3B than Keppinger, but I have a hard time believing Keppinger will be much of a defensive downgrade than what Youkilis was able to give the Sox.

Keppinger is a decent to bad defensive 2B. He's atrocious at 3rd. He should be playing first, really. But guys without elite sticks tend to be thrown around the infield and labeled utility. And then teams like us sign them as everyday players at their worst position. :(:

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:27 PM
Like Derrick Rose being a bust of epic proportions?

And yes, whenever you make ludicrous statements like this, Derrick Rose will appear. Like magic! :wink:

And only for like the 90th time this thread!

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:28 PM
I find it amusing that munch cites losing AJ offensively will hurt this team, and in the same breath saying Rios hit outside of his norms and will regress. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AJ just do the same thing? So you're saying Rios will regress offensively, but AJ won't? Not saying Rios won't regress. I'll wait until he starts swinging a bat to make that determination, but there is also no guarantee, had AJ re-signed, that he would duplicate his offensive production from last season.

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:29 PM
And only for like the 90th time this thread!

Well, you keep making these ludicrous statements, so... :shrug:

doublem23
01-23-2013, 02:31 PM
Keppinger is a decent to bad defensive 2B. He's atrocious at 3rd. He should be playing first, really. But guys without elite sticks tend to be thrown around the infield and labeled utility. And then teams like us sign them as everyday players at their worst position. :(:

Well, I hold your opinion pretty much worthless, but I'll have to take it as I've never really seen Keppinger play much in the field and don't know for myself, but I have a very hard time believing he'll be much worse off than Youkilis last year who was too beat up by the end of the season to do much of anything.

I will point out that in his career, Keppinger's RF/9 at 3B is 2.59, which is essentially the league average 3B over that time (2.62) and much better than Youkilis's RF/9 with the Sox last season, 2.33. But I'm assuming only players on the Tigers can be expected to maintain or exceed their career norms.

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:32 PM
I find it amusing that munch cites losing AJ offensively will hurt this team, and in the same breath saying Rios hit outside of his norms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AJ just do the same thing? So you're saying Rios will regress offensively, but AJ won't? Not saying Rios won't regress. I'll wait until he starts swinging a bat to make that determination, but there is also no guarantee, had AJ re-signed, that he would duplicate his offensive production from last season.

The problem is that in order to even be just as good as last year, you have to have bats that will replace their production from last year. The White Sox made matters worse than simply resigning AJ (who only took one year!). Now instead of regression from AJ, they're going from one end of the spectrum to the other, instituting a black hole in the lineup.

There are things we could do to improve the offense. I just get the sense that people are content. Which, I believe, is pretty ridiculous. We are going to need to pitch a lot of shutouts to stay competitive if this is our lineup.

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:38 PM
Well, I hold your opinion pretty much worthless, but I'll have to take it as I've never really seen Keppinger play much in the field and don't know for myself, but I have a very hard time believing he'll be much worse off than Youkilis last year who was too beat up by the end of the season to do much of anything.

I will point out that in his career, Keppinger's RF/9 at 3B is 2.59, which is essentially the league average 3B over that time (2.62) and much better than Youkilis's RF/9 with the Sox last season, 2.33. But I'm assuming only players on the Tigers can be expected to maintain or exceed their career norms.

Thanks?

Well, in his last five years as an infielder, he's been worth -177 runs to his team defensively. To be fair, he's actually a really above average defender in LF. Given our current options, if we went out and got a 3B and played Keppinger in left I'd be plenty happy with that.

Edit: sorry, that's if his numbers were for a whole year. But you get the idea.

spawn
01-23-2013, 02:41 PM
The problem is that in order to even be just as good as last year, you have to have bats that will replace their production from last year. The White Sox made matters worse than simply resigning AJ (who only took one year!). Now instead of regression from AJ, they're going from one end of the spectrum to the other, instituting a black hole in the lineup.

There are things we could do to improve the offense. I just get the sense that people are content. Which, I believe, is pretty ridiculous. We are going to need to pitch a lot of shutouts to stay competitive if this is our lineup.

No, I don't think people are content. Would I like the Sox to add another bat to replace the offense AJ provided? Sure. But by the same token, I'm not taking the woe is me defeatist attitude you have that this team is going to completely blow chunks because everything bad that can happen will, and there will be no individual improvements from any player on the roster. Again, if there are no more moves made, then I will reserve judgement of this team until they actually play the games.

blandman
01-23-2013, 02:54 PM
No, I don't think people are content. Would I like the Sox to add another bat to replace the offense AJ provided? Sure. But by the same token, I'm not taking the woe is me defeatist attitude you have that this team is going to completely blow chunks because everything bad that can happen will, and there will be no individual improvements from any player on the roster. Again, if there are no more moves made, then I will reserve judgement of this team until they actually play the games.

I guess to me that's just an extreme level of optimism that I don't find realistic in the least bit? :(:

Sorry. Agree to disagree.

spawn
01-23-2013, 03:06 PM
I guess to me that's just an extreme level of optimism that I don't find realistic in the least bit? :(:

Sorry. Agree to disagree.

What?!?! So, waiting until the games are played is an extreme level of optimism? i don't think i've stated this team was going to surprise and win the Central, nor did i state they would win 90-95 games. I'm taking a wait and see approach, not the sky is falling approach you're taking. If anyone is being extreme around here, it's you. And you wonder why no one values your opinion around here. :rolleyes:

SoxNation05
01-23-2013, 03:13 PM
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.



The bullpen is better and Reed should improve are really the same thing. I don't think the bullpen was the problem last year though, and it's debatable how a better bullpen improves us.

I like our #5 options better than Humber. Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

John Danks probably won't be 100% this year, but even if he is our big problem is offense, of which we have very little.

Why do you think Beckham will get better at the plate? He's had over 1000 plate appearances and has only regressed.

I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...

Reed was a liability last year. The bullpen would be lights out and Reed would blow the game. Having a closer with an ERA at 4.75 is far from acceptable. I can see that ERA drop atleast a full run, with my guess having it be around 3.00.

How is having a better bullpen "debatable" to whether it helps us? Giving up less runs, increases chances of winning.

You know little about Danks progress so do not assume. Even if offense is our problem Danks returning to form will improve the team. Would you be opposed to picking up one of your beloved Tigers' starters because "offense is our problem"?

Beckham is someone I hold irrational hope for because I think one day he is going to get his swing back together. All indications show he is a hardworker and maybe a 2nd year with Manto can work out some of the fundamental kinks.

Viciedo's issues are all about approach, as you said. His approach is attrocious so any improvement would make his stats improve. The kid is only 23 though with one full season under his belt. In that season, Dayan hit 25 home runs and hit the ball to all fields. 25 home runs is a distinction only 39 hitters held. Power is not as easily had as it once was in this post steroid era. Give Viciedo time to develop discipline and watch that vicious, powerful swing produce.

DumpJerry
01-23-2013, 03:23 PM
Because of his reported lead glove defense, I think Keppinger did himself a disservice by signing with the Sox. He would have benefited greatly by playing for a team being led by a Gold Glove, All-Star Third Baseman who can show him the ropes.

Oh, wait........

blandman
01-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Reed was a liability last year. The bullpen would be lights out and Reed would blow the game. Having a closer with an ERA at 4.75 is far from acceptable. I can see that ERA drop atleast a full run, with my guess having it be around 3.00.

How is having a better bullpen "debatable" to whether it helps us? Giving up less runs, increases chances of winning.

You know little about Danks progress so do not assume. Even if offense is our problem Danks returning to form will improve the team. Would you be opposed to picking up one of your beloved Tigers' starters because "offense is our problem"?

Beckham is someone I hold irrational hope for because I think one day he is going to get his swing back together. All indications show he is a hardworker and maybe a 2nd year with Manto can work out some of the fundamental kinks.

Viciedo's issues are all about approach, as you said. His approach is attrocious so any improvement would make his stats improve. The kid is only 23 though with one full season under his belt. In that season, Dayan hit 25 home runs and hit the ball to all fields. 25 home runs is a distinction only 39 hitters held. Power is not as easily had as it once was in this post steroid era. Give Viciedo time to develop discipline and watch that vicious, powerful swing produce.

How many blown saves did we have last year?

Swing back together? Beckham getting his swing back to when he was productive is not the problem. The problem is the LEAGUE ADJUSTED TO HIS APPROACH. His approach is based on what he is physically able to do. The ship has sailed on Beckham.

I'd feel differently on Dayan if this wasn't the book on him since the day we signed him. He's had years to adjust and has not, at any level, been able to make improvement in the areas necessary to be an everyday player.

blandman
01-23-2013, 03:48 PM
What?!?! So, waiting until the games are played is an extreme level of optimism? i don't think i've stated this team was going to surprise and win the Central, nor did i state they would win 90-95 games. I'm taking a wait and see approach, not the sky is falling approach you're taking. If anyone is being extreme around here, it's you. And you wonder why no one values your opinion around here. :rolleyes:


Oh come on. There's a difference in what we're talking about. Wait and see with what we have and maybe we'll win 95 games and the Central? You might as well wait and see if Ricky Henderson decides to come out of retirement and win the triple crown. 95 wins is not even on the table. If everything goes right, I'm not sure 85 wins is on the table. This team is sorely lacking in talent at several positions. Lots still needs to be done.

spawn
01-23-2013, 03:53 PM
Oh come on. There's a difference in what we're talking about. Wait and see with what we have and maybe we'll win 95 games and the Central? You might as well wait and see if Ricky Henderson decides to come out of retirement and win the triple crown. 95 wins is not even on the table. If everything goes right, I'm not sure 85 wins is on the table. This team is sorely lacking in talent at several positions. Lots still needs to be done.
Yes, there is a difference in what we're talking about. My approach is reasonable. Yours is bat-**** crazy.

And you to say that if everything goes right, this team may not win 85 games? Please, enlighten us. What is your definition of "everything goes right"? Can't wait to see how this team doesn't win if everything goes right. :popcorn:

blandman
01-23-2013, 03:55 PM
Yes, there is a difference in what we're talking about. My approach is reasonable. Yours is bat-**** crazy.

You are "waiting and seeing" on something that has next to zero chance of happening. And I'm the one who's bat-**** crazy? The team looks bad on paper. It's because there's a lot of crappy ball players in key spots. That needs to be addressed, or there's a better than average chance we will be very very very bad.

spawn
01-23-2013, 03:58 PM
You are "waiting and seeing" on something that has next to zero chance of happening. And I'm the one who's bat-**** crazy?

And what have I said is going to happen? Please, tell me. I mean, I could be wrong, but I do believe I said I would reserve judgement until games were played. I'm not the one dealing in absolutes. That's you.

And I didn't say you we're bat-**** crazy. That would be a personal attack. I said your approach was. Big difference.

Nellie_Fox
01-23-2013, 03:58 PM
Since it has been brought up, I feel the need to clarify. Munch/Bland did not simply create a new account to get around a ban. Don't get the idea that people can do that. His ban was lifted and he chose to have a new account instead of his old one.

blandman
01-23-2013, 04:03 PM
And what have I said is going to happen? Please, tell me. I mean, I could be wrong, but I do believe I said I would reserve judgement until games were played. I'm not the one dealing in absolutes. That's you.

And I didn't say you we're bat-**** crazy. That would be a personal attack. I said your approach was. Big difference.

So what, your opinion is to not have an opinion, but having an opinion is bat-**** crazy?

Yeah, that's a lot better.

spawn
01-23-2013, 04:06 PM
So what, your opinion is to not have an opinion, but having an opinion is bat-**** crazy?

Yeah, that's a lot better.

Again, you've misread what I said. I said your approach was bat-**** crazy. Your approach is to pre-judge the team with absolutes. Mine is to reserve judgment until games are played. Again...big difference. Big. Huge! :cool:

Still waiting on how, if everything goes right, this team doesn't win 85 games, and your definition of everything going right. :popcorn:

sullythered
01-23-2013, 04:09 PM
next to zero chance of happening. will be very very very bad.
Those are the types of statements that cause nobody to take you seriously. And the reason that the stuff you say comes back and bites you in the ass.

spawn
01-23-2013, 04:12 PM
next to zero chance of happening

very very very bad.

Those are the types of statements that cause nobody to take you seriously. And the reason that the stuff you say comes back and bites you in the ass.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShKThNWRQmOgnvmmK78xRZ5eBP4IqbV-ZbdSPKJe5BsqQe3hBC
Ahem...

blandman
01-23-2013, 04:14 PM
Again, you've misread what I said. I said your approach was bat-**** crazy. Your approach is to pre-judge the team with absolutes. Mine is to reserve judgment until games are played. Again...big difference. Big. Huge! :cool:

Still waiting on how, if everything goes right, this team doesn't win 85 games, and your definition of everything going right. :popcorn:

Those are the types of statements that cause nobody to take you seriously. And the reason that the stuff you say comes back and bites you in the ass.


There's a difference between zero chance and next to zero. It's not just semantics. There is a possibility this team could compete. There is a possibility the Tigers lose three starters to injury and Cabrera gets hit by a Guinness truck on his way to work.

It's just not that likely. Acting like it is perpetuates the problem. Blind faith is a really bad thing, because it doesn't force action. Ask the fellas up north what that's gotten them. I like that our fanbase won't come out and support crap when we're having a crappy season. I just wish we'd hold the team more accountable now, when there's much more to do about it.

spawn
01-23-2013, 04:15 PM
There's a difference between zero chance and next to zero. It's not just semantics. There is a possibility this team could compete. There is a possibility the Tigers lose three starters to injury and Cabrera gets hit by a Guinness truck on his way to work.

It's just not that likely. Acting like it is perpetuates the problem. Blind faith is a really bad thing, because it doesn't force action. Ask the fellas up north what that's gotten them. I like that our fanbase won't come out and support crap when we're having a crappy season. I just wish we'd hold the team more accountable now, when there's much more to do about it.

You still haven't answered the question...:popcorn:

Also, the Sox were in first place most of the season, and fans didn't come out to support the team, so...

And no, we are NOT turning this into an attendance thread...

russ99
01-23-2013, 04:17 PM
Viciedo's issues are all about approach, as you said. His approach is attrocious so any improvement would make his stats improve. The kid is only 23 though with one full season under his belt. In that season, Dayan hit 25 home runs and hit the ball to all fields. 25 home runs is a distinction only 39 hitters held. Power is not as easily had as it once was in this post steroid era. Give Viciedo time to develop discipline and watch that vicious, powerful swing produce.

As Viciedo had 1299 AB in the minors and 711 with the Sox over three seasons, there is a real chance that development won't happen, at least to the level some of us expect.

I'm not happy with an everyday player hitting sub .260 and striking out 125 times if all he's giving us on the plus side is home runs. That goes double for an expensive veteran like Dunn.

If we had a core group of solid players on the club, we could live with an inconsistent, streaky Viciedo in LF, yet it sounds like either the Sox and/or Sox fans are banking on him to be the primary slugger of the future.

Considering some of his comparables by age are Albert Belle (age 22) and Matt Nokes (age 23) it seems wishful that we could end up with another Albert Belle, but it's more likely we're getting Nokes. Or as I like to use, another Jack Cust or Willy Mo Pena.

As a fan, though, I'm willing to be patient, if the kid shows improvement this year, I'm back on the bandwagon, but if we get the same results as last year, at some time we have to cut bait.

spawn
01-23-2013, 04:18 PM
Blind faith is a really bad thing, because it doesn't force action.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqueGlxjQYSNICU9SeWjUlCEOiDig0p ZiJkLSdN6KdJqsIToOV

Pssst!!!

Nellie_Fox
01-23-2013, 04:20 PM
I'm not happy with an everyday player hitting sub .260 and striking out 125 times if all he's giving us on the plus side is home runs. That goes double for an expensive veteran like Dunn. Dunn hitting .260 and only striking out 125 times would be a HUGE improvement.

blandman
01-23-2013, 04:23 PM
You still haven't answered the question...:popcorn:

Because "everything going right" means Beckham still posts an OPS+ of about 60. It doesn't mean he hits .300 with 30 bombs. That's ridiculously far-fetched, especially with drug testing.

Everything going right involves Dayan hitting 40 homers but he'll still hit .210 with a .220 OBP.

Everything going right is Danks pitching 200 innings but still having double digit losses because the team can't score.

There isn't a scenario with the current players where we score enough to compete. Not in this division. 18 games against the Tigers? 18 games against the Royals (who shellacked us last year WITHOUT their rebuilt rotation of sox killers). No. This team is probably topping out around .500. 85 is extremely lucky. And how that gets us in the playoffs now anyway is also not very likely. There's some really good teams in the AL, and a lot of talent disparity from the haves and the have-nots in the other divisions. Look at the AL West. Houston and Seattle in the same divisions as LA, Oakland, and Texas?

palehosepub
01-23-2013, 05:18 PM
You are "waiting and seeing" on something that has next to zero chance of happening. And I'm the one who's bat-**** crazy? The team looks bad on paper. It's because there's a lot of crappy ball players in key spots. That needs to be addressed, or there's a better than average chance we will be very very very bad.

“Without faith, hope and trust, there is no promise for the future, and without a promising future, life has no direction, no meaning and no justification.” Adam Sinclair


It's only January. You don't have to have "blind faith" but part of the beauty of baseball is the hope and mystery of it all.

Looking forward to Spring Training. Go Sox!

MtGrnwdSoxFan
01-23-2013, 05:35 PM
Spawn, the blandman slayer.

We all know bland is going to keep his shtick up, so it's pointless to argue with him. I'll just keep my expectations at a medium, and hope for the best. Who saw the Giants winning the Series this year?

It's baseball. Anything can happen.

LITTLE NELL
01-23-2013, 06:17 PM
Dunn hitting .260 and only striking out 125 times would be a HUGE improvement.

It would be a miracle.

blandman
01-23-2013, 06:23 PM
“Without faith, hope and trust, there is no promise for the future, and without a promising future, life has no direction, no meaning and no justification.” Adam Sinclair


It's only January. You don't have to have "blind faith" but part of the beauty of baseball is the hope and mystery of it all.

Looking forward to Spring Training. Go Sox!

Tell that to Astros fans. Think they're looking forward to this season?

blandman
01-23-2013, 06:25 PM
Spawn, the blandman slayer.

We all know bland is going to keep his shtick up, so it's pointless to argue with him. I'll just keep my expectations at a medium, and hope for the best. Who saw the Giants winning the Series this year?

It's baseball. Anything can happen.

Yeah. Someone thinking the White Sox roster is substantially subpar has got to be a shtick. Forget the fact that this team fell short, lost key players, and watched the competition improve. We got this. FAITH.

blandman
01-23-2013, 06:28 PM
It would be a miracle.

No, you only have to have faith. Then it'll happen.

sullythered
01-23-2013, 06:28 PM
Everything going right involves Dayan hitting 40 homers but he'll still hit .210 with a .220 OBP.

Wait, if he hits 15 more homers, his batting average will drop 50 points and his OBP will drop 100 points from his career averages? And that's everything going right?

blandman
01-23-2013, 06:30 PM
Wait, if he hits 15 more homers, his batting average will drop 50 points and his OBP will drop 100 points from his career averages? And that's everything going right?

Drop his first half, before the league figured out the guy has no strike zone judgement.

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 06:52 PM
Drop his first half, before the league figured out the guy has no strike zone judgement.

You are aware that in the second half Dayan had a higher batting average, OBP, and slugging percentage, correct?

I will however agree (though I haven't read through the whole thread) that on paper the Tigers are vastly superior to the White Sox.

dickallen15
01-23-2013, 06:54 PM
Drop his first half, before the league figured out the guy has no strike zone judgement.

At least you won't have to waste time this summer on the White Sox considering the season is already over. Maybe you can spend that extra time brushing up on your basketball acumen.

SoxNation05
01-23-2013, 06:57 PM
Drop his first half, before the league figured out the guy has no strike zone judgement.
Only problem was Viciedo's second half was better than his first and that included May where he hit north of 350.

Baseless, pigheaded statements.

blandman
01-23-2013, 07:07 PM
Only problem was Viciedo's second half was better than his first and that included May where he hit north of 350.

Baseless, pigheaded statements.

Regrettable, I forgot his ridiculous September against callups. My bad. Brent Morel syndrome. He's still not the player you're making him out to be, and will be out of the league in a few years.

SoxNation05
01-23-2013, 07:15 PM
Regrettable, I forgot his ridiculous September against callups. My bad. Brent Morel syndrome. He's still not the player you're making him out to be, and will be out of the league in a few years.

Actually, I have not made any claims of what he will be. Just as you have done with Spawn, you are putting words into my mouth. Throughout this thread and the original thread you have just thrown around your pessimistic, baseless opinions and watched several members make a mockery of you. Get a clue?

Thank you for informing of his future though. I will be sure to trade/drop him and Derrick Rose from dynasty fantasy teams.

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 07:15 PM
Regrettable, I forgot his ridiculous September against callups. My bad. Brent Morel syndrome. He's still not the player you're making him out to be, and will be out of the league in a few years.

You mean his stats in September when the team was heading down the stretch in a tight divisional race with lots of pressure? Those stats?

blandman
01-23-2013, 07:20 PM
Actually, I have not made any claims of what he will be. Just as you have done with Spawn, you are putting words into my mouth. Throughout this thread and the original thread you have just thrown around your pessimistic, baseless opinions and watched several members make a mockery of you. Get a clue?

Thank you for informing of his future though. I will be sure to trade/drop him and Derrick Rose from dynasty fantasy teams.

You can't attack an argument as pigheaded and then not expect the assumption is you are in disagreement with the statement. :rolleyes:

You mean his stats in September when the team was heading down the stretch in a tight divisional race with lots of pressure? Those stats?

Nope. I mean the six homers he hit off rookie pitchers before and after we fell apart.

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 07:26 PM
By the way IF we are still discussing the potential outlook for the 2013 White Sox here is Jeff Passan's view:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/no--18-white-sox--chicago-hard-pressed-to-prove-last-season-s-surprising-run-wasn-t-a-fluke-215701921.html

and a rebuttal:
http://southsideshowdown.com/2013/01/21/white-sox-doomed-for-regression-responding-to-jeff-passans-analysis/

I agree with Passan's general point that we are in "Backloaded Contract Hell," and probably over achieved last year and maybe due for a regression. I think he underestimates our pitching though, I think the rotation and bullpen will keep us at worst mediocre and maybe even allow us to hang around a bit and surprise some people.

spawn
01-23-2013, 07:30 PM
Spawn, the blandman slayer.

We all know bland is going to keep his shtick up, so it's pointless to argue with him. I'll just keep my expectations at a medium, and hope for the best. Who saw the Giants winning the Series this year?

It's baseball. Anything can happen.
LOL...yeah, I'm pretty much done with him and this argument. I think I've made my point. And yes, no one saw the Giants coming. And very few thought the Sox would be contenders last year. I guess that's why games aren't played on paper! :cool:

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 07:33 PM
Nope. I mean the six homers he hit off rookie pitchers before and after we fell apart.

Dayan hit homers off of Bruce Chen, Scott Diamond, Corey Kluber, Scott Maine, Chris Perez, and Vinne Pestano. NONE of them are rookies (though Kluber and Maine are gas cans). Bruce Chen was the best pitcher on the Royals last year (which isn't saying much) and consistently beat the White Sox, Scott Diamond had a 3.54 ERA, Chris Perez had a 3.57 ERA and 39 saves this year, and Pestano had a 2.57 ERA in 70 innings. That's not exactly AAA filler.

spawn
01-23-2013, 07:33 PM
I will however agree (though I haven't read through the whole thread) that on paper the Tigers are vastly superior to the White Sox.
I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but to say it as an absloute that it will happen and that it is an absolute that the Sox will tank is...well... :shrug:

spawn
01-23-2013, 07:34 PM
Wait, if he hits 15 more homers, his batting average will drop 50 points and his OBP will drop 100 points from his career averages? And that's everything going right?
:rolling:

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 07:35 PM
I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but to say it as an absloute that it will happen and that it is an absolute that the Sox will tank is...well... :shrug:

Obviously this is why they play the games, who the hell thought the Orioles or A's would make the playoffs last year? It's not an absolute but I would be stunned if the White Sox won much more than 83 games this year. But who knows?

spawn
01-23-2013, 07:42 PM
Obviously this is why they play the games, who the hell thought the Orioles or A's would make the playoffs last year? It's not an absolute but I would be stunned if the White Sox won much more than 83 games this year. But who knows?
I think that's the point me and others in this thread have been trying to make. On paper, this Sox team doesn't look like they will contend for the AL Central. But again, before the season started last year, there were experts that had the Sox losing 90-95 games. It's ridiculous to say you know what is going to happen. As you said, who saw the Orioles coming? Or the Sox being in first place most of the season? Or the A's? The Giants? Anything can happen after that first pitch is thrown. Nothing is certain.

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 07:45 PM
I think that's the point me and others in this thread have been trying to make. On paper, this Sox team doesn't look like they will contend for the AL Central. But again, before the season started last year, there were experts that had the Sox losing 90-95 games. It's ridiculous to say you know what is going to happen. As you said, who saw the Orioles making the playoffs? Or the Sox being in first place most of the season? Or the A's? The Giants? Anything can happen after that first pitch is thrown. Nothing is certain.

Of course it's ridiculous but, ya know, it's kind of fun too. I would wait until spring training starts before making any real sort of predictions and even then I would revise my predictions at the end of spring training.

I will say this for the White Sox, it seems like they play a year late. In 2012 they played like the team everyone thought they would play like in 2011, in 2011 they played like the team a lot of people predicted they would be in 2010. Strange sort of thing.

blandman
01-23-2013, 07:47 PM
I think that's the point me and others in this thread have been trying to make. On paper, this Sox team doesn't look like they will contend for the AL Central. But again, before the season started last year, there were experts that had the Sox losing 90-95 games. It's ridiculous to say you know what is going to happen. As you said, who saw the Orioles coming? Or the Sox being in first place most of the season? Or the A's? The Giants? Anything can happen after that first pitch is thrown. Nothing is certain.


Spawn the main issue I have with that is the level of young talent in the respective rosters. The A's and Orioles were filled with former #1 picks and guys at the top of every prospect list. And the Giants? Winners of two of the last three series? Yeah, nobody saw that coming. We've got the consensus worst system in baseball, and our ready "prospects" have already had several hundred if not thousands of at bats. It baffles me that people still think Beckham is going to bust out.

spawn
01-23-2013, 07:48 PM
Of course it's ridiculous but, ya know, it's kind of fun too. I would wait until spring training starts before making any real sort of predictions and even then I would revise my predictions at the end of spring training.

Yeah, but again, there is a difference between making predictions and stating them as absolutes. According to munch here, the Sox have no shot, no matter if everything goes right, and to take a wait and see approach is being overly optimstic. That's what I find ridiculous.

blandman
01-23-2013, 07:50 PM
Yeah, but again, there is a difference between making predictions and stating them as absolutes. According to munch here, the Sox have no shot, no matter if everything goes right, and to take a wait and see approach is being overly optimstic. That's what I find ridiculous.

If you go back and read, I didn't say that at all. I said we had next to no shot. We would need an elaborate scenario than involved several key Tigers all going down. Not impossible. But why would I lie and say its likely? It's not.

spawn
01-23-2013, 07:53 PM
I will say this for the White Sox, it seems like they play a year late. In 2012 they played like the team everyone thought they would play like in 2011, in 2011 they played like the team a lot of people predicted they would be in 2010. Strange sort of thing.
I know, right? It is kinda strange they do that. Let's just hope that in 2012, they play like 2005! :gulp:

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 07:55 PM
If you go back and read, I didn't say that at all. I said we had next to no shot. We would need an elaborate scenario than involved several key Tigers all going down. Not impossible. But why would I lie and say its likely? It's not.

If the White Sox have an elaborate scenario where Danks, Sale and Peavy pitch to the best of their abilities, Beckham hits like he did in September all year long, Dunn hits .250 with 40 something homers, Flowers hits .260 something, Rios and Konerko hits like he did in the first half, and Alexei hits like he did back in 2010 the White Sox will make the playoffs. No Tiger players have to get hurt for that to happen. The Tigers might still win the division but if all those things happen the White Sox will win at least one of the wild cards.

WhiteSox5187
01-23-2013, 07:57 PM
I know, right? It is kinda strange they do that. Let's just hope that in 2012, they play like 2005! :gulp:

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...that didn't happen in 2012. :redneck

spawn
01-23-2013, 07:58 PM
Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...that didn't happen in 2012. :redneck
:redface: D'OH! I mean 2013.....:tongue:

SoxNation05
01-23-2013, 08:32 PM
Dayan hit homers off of Bruce Chen, Scott Diamond, Corey Kluber, Scott Maine, Chris Perez, and Vinne Pestano. NONE of them are rookies (though Kluber and Maine are gas cans). Bruce Chen was the best pitcher on the Royals last year (which isn't saying much) and consistently beat the White Sox, Scott Diamond had a 3.54 ERA, Chris Perez had a 3.57 ERA and 39 saves this year, and Pestano had a 2.57 ERA in 70 innings. That's not exactly AAA filler.

Not exactly all rookies as Munch stated. Why the failure to respond to this post Munch?

Spawn the main issue I have with that is the level of young talent in the respective rosters. The A's and Orioles were filled with former #1 picks and guys at the top of every prospect list. And the Giants? Winners of two of the last three series? Yeah, nobody saw that coming. We've got the consensus worst system in baseball, and our ready "prospects" have already had several hundred if not thousands of at bats. It baffles me that people still think Beckham is going to bust out.

Please quote back to when anyone said Beckham is gonig to bust out? As someone previouly noted, you are making arguements with people who do not exist.

russ99
01-23-2013, 10:09 PM
Tell that to Astros fans. Think they're looking forward to this season?

Sure they are, myself included, but now that they directly compete with the Sox, my interest is a bit lessened.

Astros fans want to see how this whole AL thing shakes out, to see which of the top prospects push their way on a big league roster, to see if anyone busts out by surprise, to see who they pick first, and what else Luhnow can do to speed the rebuild, which deals they can make to add young talent.

We did go though that ourselves not too long ago, though it was longer and more painful in the late 80s than in the late 90s. Too bad we don't have another young Frank Thomas to build around when we have to reload or rebuild again in a few years.

DumpJerry
01-23-2013, 10:14 PM
Tell that to Astros fans. Think they're looking forward to this season?
Why not? Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark!



Even if it has a retractable roof.


Many of us went to Sox games in the 70's knowing the team sucked. We didn't care, it was still fun and exciting to be at the ballpark.

Nellie_Fox
01-24-2013, 12:06 AM
Many of us went to Sox games in the 70's knowing the team sucked
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-greet024.gif

sullythered
01-24-2013, 12:39 AM
Dayan hit homers off of Bruce Chen, Scott Diamond, Corey Kluber, Scott Maine, Chris Perez, and Vinne Pestano. NONE of them are rookies (though Kluber and Maine are gas cans). Bruce Chen was the best pitcher on the Royals last year (which isn't saying much) and consistently beat the White Sox, Scott Diamond had a 3.54 ERA, Chris Perez had a 3.57 ERA and 39 saves this year, and Pestano had a 2.57 ERA in 70 innings. That's not exactly AAA filler.

I have never seen an argument so thoroughly obliterated as the one munch was making on Viciedo. Nice job to all.

jabrch
01-24-2013, 05:22 AM
Please don't feed the trolls.

SI1020
01-24-2013, 07:42 AM
Why not? Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark!



Even if it has a retractable roof.


Many of us went to Sox games in the 70's knowing the team sucked. We didn't care, it was still fun and exciting to be at the ballpark. Guilty as charged.

asindc
01-24-2013, 07:59 AM
Why not? Can't beat fun at the 'ole ballpark!



Even if it has a retractable roof.


Many of us went to Sox games in the 70's knowing the team sucked. We didn't care, it was still fun and exciting to be at the ballpark.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-greet024.gif

Guilty as charged.

I was also among the proud, the few.

russ99
01-24-2013, 08:23 AM
]
Many of us went to Sox games in the 70's knowing the team sucked. We didn't care, it was still fun and exciting to be at the ballpark.

:gulp:

Also holds true for the 80s: other than a brief respite of contending in '82, '83 and part of '85.

We've come a long way, yet baseball is cyclical so you can be sure we'll be there again, hopefully not anytime soon...

DumpJerry
01-24-2013, 09:29 AM
I was also among the proud, the few.
In my office one of the older Sox fans and I talk about the "good old days" when you went to a Sox game and could stretch out your legs into the seat in front of you and your arms on either seat beside you.

Losing teams are great.:smile:

dickallen15
01-24-2013, 09:53 AM
In my office one of the older Sox fans and I talk about the "good old days" when you went to a Sox game and could stretch out your legs into the seat in front of you and your arms on either seat beside you.

Losing teams are great.:smile:
Actually, you could do that last year and the team was in first place most of the season.

doublem23
01-24-2013, 09:57 AM
In my office one of the older Sox fans and I talk about the "good old days" when you went to a Sox game and could stretch out your legs into the seat in front of you and your arms on either seat beside you.


I'm still in my 20s and you've been able to do that at Sox games for the majority of my life

beasly213
01-24-2013, 10:05 AM
I'm still in my 20s and you've been able to do that at Sox games for the majority of my life

Ditto. In 1998 I went to tons of games and can remember basically being able to walk down to the first few rows behind the on deck circle and still stretch and put my feet up.

Zisk77
01-24-2013, 10:51 AM
Guilty as charged.

Me too...go Bill Naharodney.

Golden Sox
01-24-2013, 10:53 AM
Now that Arizona has traded Upton to the Braves, does this mean they won't trade Jason Kubel to the White Sox? I still have hopes that the White Sox will acquire another left handed hitter. I'm also hoping Adam Dunn won't be on the 2013 White Sox.

Nellie_Fox
01-24-2013, 11:09 AM
In my office one of the older Sox fans and I talk about the "good old days" when you went to a Sox game and could stretch out your legs into the seat in front of you and your arms on either seat beside you.

Losing teams are great.:smile:I've been at games where we pretty much had our own private beer vendor! He just sorta hung around until we were ready for another.

Lip Man 1
01-24-2013, 11:14 AM
Well Robin yesterday said he and Hahn talked and Robin told him "don't spend money just to say that you did it..." Robin said he'd like another left handed hitter but if the Sox don't find one who'll fit in, he can get by without one.

At this point it doesn't matter to me what side the guy hits from. The Sox need another good hitter in that lineup, two would be better.

Lip

Foulke You
01-24-2013, 02:01 PM
At this point it doesn't matter to me what side the guy hits from. The Sox need another good hitter in that lineup, two would be better.

Lip
This is how I feel as well. The Sox should look to add one more solid bat to that lineup whether it is left handed or right handed. As Robin pointed out, both Paulie and Rios hit right handers very well so it isn't like our lineup is crippled against a righty. As constructed, I like this team probably more than a lot of people on this board because of the pitching staff. The Sox have a rock solid bullpen (on paper) and a deep rotation (again, on paper). Pitching is often the hardest hurdle for teams and I feel the Sox have a staff that can contend for the AL Central already in place.

It's the everyday lineup that scares me. Alexei showed signs of regression last year, AJ's high avg has been removed, Beckham disappears for weeks at a time, Paulie is coming off wrist surgery, and we don't know what we are going to get out of Flowers on an everyday basis. Getting consistent offense has been the issue the last few seasons and one more impact bat would really solidify things.

DonnieDarko
01-24-2013, 05:36 PM
Just thought that I would add this on Beckham: I think he'll improve because he showed improvement last year. Sure, the numbers do not show that, but that's because he had an atrocious April and a bad July...but it seems that after that he seemed to figure SOMETHING out, and by the last month of the season (albeit, after some of the pressure of getting into the playoffs was gone) he seemed to grow confidence. I KNOW that he changed his stance by holding his hands a bit higher, and ever since he started doing that he's shown improvement.

Of course he hasn't shown enough that he actually can sustain that improvement, but I'm not willing to throw him into the ditch yet. At the very worst he gives you an average-to-slightly-below-average 2B's bat, and plus defense. Out of a position that league-wide isn't really filled with All-Stars, I'll take that any day of the week.

As the old adage goes however, time will tell.

blandman
01-25-2013, 09:44 AM
I have never seen an argument so thoroughly obliterated as the one munch was making on Viciedo. Nice job to all.

While they've shown he was a little better than I made him out to be, not one person has shown anything that suggests he will defy what's in his scouting reports.

blandman
01-25-2013, 09:46 AM
Please quote back to when anyone said Beckham is gonig to bust out? As someone previouly noted, you are making arguements with people who do not exist.

At least make sure you don't lie about things you've posted in the same thread. :rolleyes:



Beckham is someone I hold irrational hope for because I think one day he is going to get his swing back together. All indications show he is a hardworker and maybe a 2nd year with Manto can work out some of the fundamental kinks.

dickallen15
01-25-2013, 09:52 AM
At least make sure you don't lie about things you've posted in the same thread. :rolleyes:
You are a guy who defended himself saying you said next to no shot vs. no shot, and saying there was a huge difference. Now someone else says they have irrational hope and you say that's the same as saying he will bust out.

I think you spend too much time with your President of the Michael Beasley fan club duties.

blandman
01-25-2013, 09:55 AM
You are a guy who defended himself saying you said next to no shot vs. no shot, and saying there was a huge difference. Now someone else says they have irrational hope and you say that's the same as saying he will bust out.

I think you spend too much time with your President of the Michael Beasley fan club duties.

Your train of logic doesn't make sense.

Yes, it is NEARLY impossible for us to win the division. Yes, we can do it. But it's not likely. It's not really all that plausible. We need two more impact bats in the lineup, and then some stuff to go right.

People keep acting like the Tigers don't have 6 impact bats in their lineup, 2 being two of the best in all of baseball, and a much better pitching staff.

Irrational hope Beckham gets his swing back is the same as saying he'll bust out, yeah. I'm pretty sure we all know he's talking about his rookie year. Expecting that again, more than a thousand at bats into his career is a little homerish at this point.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 09:57 AM
Irrational hope Beckham gets his swing back is the same as saying he'll bust out, yeah. I'm pretty sure we all know he's talking about his rookie year. Expecting that again, more than a thousand at bats into his career is a little homerish at this point.

Give it a rest for ****'s sake, you've painted yourself in another corner. A guy saying he has "irrational hope" for a player does not in any logical or sane way indicate he thinks that player is going to "bust out."

blandman
01-25-2013, 09:59 AM
Give it a rest for ****'s sake, you've painted yourself in another corner. A guy saying he has "irrational hope" for a player does not in any logical or sane way indicate he thinks that player is going to "bust out."

It does when you read the rest of the statement. People have taken tremendous liberty with the things I've said, I'm only pointing to what the guy meant. He meant Beckham would return to form. Is he referring to the ****ty years since year one when he produced star level? Come the **** on.

dickallen15
01-25-2013, 10:04 AM
It does when you read the rest of the statement. People have taken tremendous liberty with the things I've said, I'm only pointing to what the guy meant. He meant Beckham would return to form. Is he referring to the ****ty years since year one when he produced star level? Come the **** on.
What you have posted has been obnoxious. You should buy a Tigers hat and be done with it, although if you did, you would find fault with everything Tigers and suddenly White Sox players would become better.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 10:11 AM
It does when you read the rest of the statement. People have taken tremendous liberty with the things I've said, I'm only pointing to what the guy meant. He meant Beckham would return to form. Is he referring to the ****ty years since year one when he produced star level? Come the **** on.

Nobody has taken anything out of the tremendously over the top, depressingly annoying tone you meant to convey them in, so cut the self martyrdom ****. And when a guy prefaces his statement saying it's with "irrational" hope, that means he realizes it's without any logical merit. Beckham turning his career around would be certainly surprising, but stranger things have happened in baseball.

blandman
01-25-2013, 10:23 AM
What you have posted has been obnoxious. You should buy a Tigers hat and be done with it, although if you did, you would find fault with everything Tigers and suddenly White Sox players would become better.

The attitude that anything negative is obnoxious is in itself obnoxious. Haven't we gone passed the point where regarding another team in our division as clearly better doesn't mean we're becoming fans of that team? Especially when every other fanbase on the planet would acknowledge it?

Nobody has taken anything out of the tremendously over the top, depressing tone you meant to convey them in, so cut the self martyrdom ****. And when a guy prefaces his statement saying it's with "irrational" hope, that means he realizes it's without any logical merit. Beckham turning his career around would be certainly surprising, but stranger things have happened in baseball.

All of that is off topic. He claimed I put words in his mouth. I was pointing back to where he actually made the statement.

Saying we have little to no chance of competing for the division is not over the top. Sorry. But that's not just my opinion, that's the majority opinion in baseball. We are bad. The Tigers are good, probably the best in baseball. There's a huge gap. We need to address the roster talent, or we aren't going anywhere. These are not over the top statements. They are the truth of the situation.

Foulke You
01-25-2013, 10:30 AM
Just thought that I would add this on Beckham: I think he'll improve because he showed improvement last year. Sure, the numbers do not show that, but that's because he had an atrocious April and a bad July...but it seems that after that he seemed to figure SOMETHING out, and by the last month of the season (albeit, after some of the pressure of getting into the playoffs was gone) he seemed to grow confidence. I KNOW that he changed his stance by holding his hands a bit higher, and ever since he started doing that he's shown improvement.

Beckham did find his power stroke last year at least. 16HRs from the 2B spot is definitely "bonus power". According to Yahoo Sports, the league average for HRs out of the 2B spot is only 6. There aren't many Robinson Canos out there who can hit 30+ from that spot on the diamond. The big problem is that he is about 25 points below the league batting average from that position.

I'm also glad that he went back to his crouched stance though. Albeit, a modified version of the one he used in Georgia and in 2009. The stance he used in 2011 where he was vertical with his hands in front of his face drove me nuts. I think we would all like to see him go back to hitting the ball with authority to right center field like he did in his rookie year though. We only get flashes of that Beckham in recent years. Still, even if Gordon doesn't improve and just duplicates his 2012 season next year, getting 16HRs and 60RBIs from the 9 spot in the order isn't horrific production. The + defense he provides also helps his cause.

blandman
01-25-2013, 10:34 AM
Beckham did find his power stroke last year at least. 16HRs from the 2B spot is definitely "bonus power". According to Yahoo Sports, the league average for HRs out of the 2B spot is only 6. There aren't many Robinson Canos out there who can hit 30+ from that spot on the diamond. The big problem is that he is about 25 points below the league batting average from that position.

I'm also glad that he went back to his crouched stance though. Albeit, a modified version of the one he used in Georgia and in 2009. The stance he used in 2011 where he was vertical with his hands in front of his face drove me nuts. I think we would all like to see him go back to hitting the ball with authority to right center field like he did in his rookie year though. We only get flashes of that Beckham in recent years. Still, even if Gordon doesn't improve and just duplicates his 2012 season next year, getting 16HRs and 60RBIs from the 9 spot in the order isn't horrific production. The + defense he provides also helps his cause.

I don't disagree that Beckham can't be a useful piece. The problem is he's always going to be below league average offensively (because of his BA and OBP). His defense and power make him useful for a lot of teams, but not a team with other holes in the lineup.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 10:57 AM
I don't disagree that Beckham can't be a useful piece. The problem is he's always going to be below league average offensively (because of his BA and OBP). His defense and power make him useful for a lot of teams, but not a team with other holes in the lineup.

But the thing is Beckham's not THAT far off the offensive average for the position he plays. The league average AL 2B in 2012 hit .250/.311/.374. Beckham hit .234/.296/.371 while also posting a .251 BABip, over 30 points lower than his pre-2012 career average. Given the relative lack of offensive production from his position, it's not at all "pie-in-the-sky" to think he's capable of at least being an offensively average player at his position.

blandman
01-25-2013, 11:07 AM
But the thing is Beckham's not THAT far off the offensive average for the position he plays. The league average AL 2B in 2012 hit .250/.311/.374. Beckham hit .234/.296/.371 while also posting a .251 BABip, over 30 points lower than his pre-2012 career average. Given the relative lack of offensive production from his position, it's not at all "pie-in-the-sky" to think he's capable of at least being an offensively average player at his position.

Fair. I don't have a problem with that, I have a problem wrapping my head around how he's going to hit at star level again five years later.

I actually like Beckham. I just don't think he's a good fit on a team with offensive concerns at almost every other position...

SoxNation05
01-25-2013, 11:31 AM
At least make sure you don't lie about things you've posted in the same thread. :rolleyes:

Far from the same thing, I quoted others on the board who swiftly defended me. That arguement was over anyways. You are going back in the thread and trying to find something to stick to someone and you are just making yourself look weak. I like Beckham, as you supposedly do too, I think he plays the game the right way, he has a good attitude, he cares, he can pick it but he just cannot get his mechanics together. IMO, if he bumps his AVG up 20-30 points and stops disapearing in the 7-8-9 innings he could be a valuable player. Considering his BABIP is .250, his AVG going up is not far fetched at all.
Give it a rest for ****'s sake, you've painted yourself in another corner. A guy saying he has "irrational hope" for a player does not in any logical or sane way indicate he thinks that player is going to "bust out."
Thank you.

You are a guy who defended himself saying you said next to no shot vs. no shot, and saying there was a huge difference. Now someone else says they have irrational hope and you say that's the same as saying he will bust out.

I think you spend too much time with your President of the Michael Beasley fan club duties.

Thank you.

SoxNation05
01-25-2013, 11:34 AM
But the thing is Beckham's not THAT far off the offensive average for the position he plays. The league average AL 2B in 2012 hit .250/.311/.374. Beckham hit .234/.296/.371 while also posting a .251 BABip, over 30 points lower than his pre-2012 career average. Given the relative lack of offensive production from his position, it's not at all "pie-in-the-sky" to think he's capable of at least being an offensively average player at his position.
I would even go as far as saying its not that "pie-in-the-sky" that he will be above average at his position.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 11:42 AM
I would even go as far as saying its not that "pie-in-the-sky" that he will be above average at his position.

Eh, through 535 career games and 2,067 plate appearances, Beckham's career slash line is .245/.312/.382 but what's most concerning is that his production has progessively gotten worse every season except for his uptick and slight improvement in BB and K rates. Granted, he's only going to be 26 years old for the majority of this season so there's still some hope he can grow a bit, but once you're talking about a guy with over 2,000 PA in the Majors, what you see is generally what you get.

He's a good defender who plays a position you don't historically get a lot of offense from so he has some value, but I don't think we're looking at a guy who will ever be anything more than a #9 hitter on a team with any kind of championship aspirations.

blandman
01-25-2013, 11:43 AM
Far from the same thing, I quoted others on the board who swiftly defended me. That arguement was over anyways. You are going back in the thread and trying to find something to stick to someone and you are just making yourself look weak. I like Beckham, as you supposedly do too, I think he plays the game the right way, he has a good attitude, he cares, he can pick it but he just cannot get his mechanics together. IMO, if he bumps his AVG up 20-30 points and stops disapearing in the 7-8-9 innings he could be a valuable player. Considering his BABIP is .250, his AVG going up is not far fetched at all.


Please. I'm not putting words in your mouth. You said get his swing back. Those were your words, not mine. Not made up. Considering he's been consistently the same every year except one year, it's obvious what year you were referring too. If you're going to sit here and lie about it, we don't have anything to discuss.

blandman
01-25-2013, 11:43 AM
Eh, through 535 career games and 2,067 plate appearances, Beckham's career slash line is .245/.312/.382 but what's most concerning is that his production has progessively gotten worse every season except for his uptick and slight improvement in BB and K rates. Granted, he's only going to be 26 years old for the majority of this season so there's still some hope he can grow a bit, but once you're talking about a guy with over 2,000 PA in the Majors, what you see is generally what you get.

The word "journeyman" comes to mind. He's got a place in this league, and he'll stick around. But don't expect too much more.

SoxNation05
01-25-2013, 11:56 AM
Please. I'm not putting words in your mouth. You said get his swing back. Those were your words, not mine. Not made up. Considering he's been consistently the same every year except one year, it's obvious what year you were referring too. If you're going to sit here and lie about it, we don't have anything to discuss.
How am I lieing? You accused me of saying he was going to break out, which I said nowhere. So quickly after your accusation two other posters came to my defense before I even saw your post. That is 3 against 1. I know you have trouble conceiving you could be wrong.

Beckham's problem is his swing. Not only does he have great trouble against offspeed pitches, the hitch in his swing makes it hard for him to hit fastballs if his timing is just off a little bit. If he works away from that hitch, shortens up his swing, he may have an alright year next year. Considering his BABIP, he is very unlucky. With Keppinger more than likely slotted at #2 in the order, it is unlikely Beckham will be moved around in the order. Therefore, he will be hitting 9th day-in-day-out and will see a lot of fastballs.

I'll break it down for you munch: he will be hitting in the same spot, he will see a lot of fastballs hitting 9th, his BABIP indicates he was very unlucky last year and hitting "average" for a 2B is not that hard to attatin.

AL average 2B slash per dub's post: .250/.311/.374. with 6 HR
Beckham's 2012 slash per dub's post: .234/.296/.371 with 16 HR 60 RBIs

What I think is easily attainable and completely acceptable for a strong fielder at 2B: .250/.310/.390 with 17 HRs and 65 RBIs.

blandman
01-25-2013, 12:02 PM
How am I lieing? You accused me of saying he was going to break out, which I said nowhere. So quickly after your accusation two other posters came to my defense before I even saw your post. That is 3 against 1. I know you have trouble conceiving you could be wrong.

Beckham's problem is his swing. Not only does he have great trouble against offspeed pitches, the hitch in his swing makes it hard for him to hit fastballs if his timing is just off a little bit. If he works away from that hitch, shortens up his swing, he may have an alright year next year. Considering his BABIP, he is very unlucky. With Keppinger more than likely slotted at #2 in the order, it is unlikely Beckham will be moved around in the order. Therefore, he will be hitting 9th day-in-day-out and will see a lot of fastballs.

I'll break it down for you munch: he will be hitting in the same spot, he will see a lot of fastballs hitting 9th, his BABIP indicates he was very unlucky last year and hitting "average" for a 2B is not that hard to attatin.

AL average 2B slash per dub's post: .250/.311/.374. with 6 HR
Beckham's 2012 slash per dub's post: .234/.296/.371 with 16 HR 60 RBIs

What I think is easily attainable and completely acceptable for a strong fielder at 2B: .250/.310/.390 with 17 HRs and 65 RBIs.

Your original statement speaks for itself. So now in order to "get his swing back", he's going to post that line you mentioned? One he never has, only worse lines and then one line way better. Right...you certainly didn't mean that one year.

This is done. Argue the meanings of words all you want.

WhiteSoxNation
01-25-2013, 12:17 PM
Beckham is in the odd category that he hits Righties better than Lefties.

.251/.297/.397 vs R
.199/.288/.303 vs L

Batting #2 .258/.305/.402<---Nothing special but his best splits.

He's a .162 hitter with 2 strikes on him, including 3-2 counts, which means he's clearly guessing or the book on him is to just not throw a strike w/ 2 strikes on him.

Batting him #2, seeing fastballs, putting on the hit and run, getting him swinging the bat early may help.

Men on 2nd or 3rd he ballons to a .326 hitter (aka DeAza on 2nd).

.207 hitter in high leverage situations, again probably stemming from pressing or guessing.

Keppinger---
vs LHP .317/.342/.473

vs LHP ---A. Sanchez .273/.349/.360

Assuming A. Sanchez is our backup INF.

We've now turned our normal .235/.301/.386 production from 2B into
.267/.330/.376 by the platoon of not playing G.B. vs LHP.

I know its not a huge jump, but every bit helps.

blandman
01-25-2013, 12:28 PM
Beckham is in the odd category that he hits Righties better than Lefties.

.251/.297/.397 vs R
.199/.288/.303 vs L

Batting #2 .258/.305/.402<---Nothing special but his best splits.

He's a .162 hitter with 2 strikes on him, including 3-2 counts, which means he's clearly guessing or the book on him is to just not throw a strike w/ 2 strikes on him.

Batting him #2, seeing fastballs, putting on the hit and run, getting him swinging the bat early may help.

Men on 2nd or 3rd he ballons to a .326 hitter (aka DeAza on 2nd).

.207 hitter in high leverage situations, again probably stemming from pressing or guessing.

Keppinger---
vs LHP .317/.342/.473

vs LHP ---A. Sanchez .273/.349/.360

Assuming A. Sanchez is our backup INF.

We've now turned our normal .235/.301/.386 production from 2B into
.267/.330/.376 by the platoon of not playing G.B. vs LHP.

I know its not a huge jump, but every bit helps.

I don't know much about Sanchez's defense vs. Beckham, but the defensive difference between Keppinger and Beckham is probably larger than that gain. I'd only do this if Beckham takes over at 3rd.

SoxNation05
01-25-2013, 03:52 PM
I don't know much about Sanchez's defense vs. Beckham, but the defensive difference between Keppinger and Beckham is probably larger than that gain. I'd only do this if Beckham takes over at 3rd.

You keep bashing Beckham yet you want his production at 3B rather than 2B? What a joke.

SoxNation05
01-25-2013, 03:53 PM
Your original statement speaks for itself. So now in order to "get his swing back", he's going to post that line you mentioned? One he never has, only worse lines and then one line way better. Right...you certainly didn't mean that one year.

This is done. Argue the meanings of words all you want.

Rather than respond to this disjointed post, I'll take my own opinon and the rest of the boards backing over your opinon.

blandman
01-25-2013, 03:57 PM
You keep bashing Beckham yet you want his production at 3B rather than 2B? What a joke.

No, I don't. But position doesn't matter on offense if the same guys are in the lineup. Keppinger is a better 2B option than 3B option, and Beckham can play both, so this option made some sense.

I'll take my own opinon and the rest of the boards backing over your opinon.

After I explained what you did, everyone else shut up about it.

doublem23
01-25-2013, 03:59 PM
After I explained what you did, everyone else shut up about it.

Probably because nobody wants to explain the same thing to you over and over and over

spawn
01-25-2013, 04:01 PM
After I explained what you did, everyone else shut up about it.

Probably because nobody wants to explain the same thing to you over and over and over

Pretty much. Sure in the hell isn't out of a sudden respect and agreement of his opinion.

WhiteSoxNation
01-25-2013, 04:28 PM
I don't know much about Sanchez's defense vs. Beckham, but the defensive difference between Keppinger and Beckham is probably larger than that gain. I'd only do this if Beckham takes over at 3rd.

This was assuming Beckham and Sanchez split 2B when a LHP occurs.

Keppinger plays well above avg defense at 3B, I wouldn't move him.

SoxNation05
01-25-2013, 04:54 PM
No, I don't. But position doesn't matter on offense if the same guys are in the lineup. Keppinger is a better 2B option than 3B option, and Beckham can play both, so this option made some sense.


After I explained what you did, everyone else shut up about it.

Probably because nobody wants to explain the same thing to you over and over and over

Pretty much. Sure in the hell isn't out of a sudden respect and agreement of his opinion.

Alright munch, I rest my case. I am sure we will meet again but until then Go Tigers!

blandman
01-25-2013, 05:07 PM
Pretty much. Sure in the hell isn't out of a sudden respect and agreement of his opinion.

Come on. If you wanna sit here and debate the words he wrote all night, I will oblige you, they are in this thread. Because you're arguing with me for the sake of disagreeing. He ****ing said it, and there's no way it could be misconstrued to be what he tried to say it meant after the fact. Don't be a troll.

blandman
01-25-2013, 05:08 PM
This was assuming Beckham and Sanchez split 2B when a LHP occurs.

Keppinger plays well above avg defense at 3B, I wouldn't move him.

He really doesn't. He did last year in limited action, but across his career he's been horrible defensively at every infield position. He's been good in the outfield.

Tragg
01-25-2013, 10:42 PM
I'll agree with Blandman overall....I don't have a reasonable expectation of the Sox competing. We competed last year, but fell short, and we needed Detroit to underperform to compete. They improved, we didn't. The Royals also improved. WE have a couple of players who could improve, but more who have a similar probability of regression. Looks like a .500 team. The glimmer of hope I have is that the pitching is above average, and that's the best strength to have.

Aside from our impotent farm system, we basically gave away Edwin Jackson at the deadline and Carlos Quentin in the offseason. We honed in on a couple of AAA pitchers who had slight off seasons as our prospects. They continued their slides with us. These are good players whom we really couldn't afford to give away. Could we have snuck in last year with Quentin/Viciedo as our LF/Bench bat (of which we had absolutely none)? Probably.

Thus, I hope we make a move. Either get a bat or get some young talent in here.

Noneck
01-27-2013, 06:46 PM
I understand and agree the need of a left handed bat. What I dont understand is where this left handed bat will play. If a deal could be made trading Viciedo for that left handed bat, that would make the most sense. Trading pitching for that left handed bat would have to produce a player that could play 3rd or 2nd. That is very difficult to find but if this would happen it would make Beckham the utility infielder which makes sense. Outside of these possibilities a left handed bat would be a DH (Thome, Hafner type). In order to get this bat in the lineup, Dunn would have to play LF, with Viciedo on bench or 1st, with Paul on bench. I really dont think that will help the club.

Lip Man 1
01-27-2013, 07:34 PM
Noneck:

Which is why if you can get a hitter who is better than anybody you have, you make the deal regardless of what side he hits from.

Lip

Noneck
01-27-2013, 07:39 PM
I agree Lip.

shingo10
02-06-2013, 06:54 PM
When is the last time the White Sox have gone an entire offseason without making a trade?

Not saying they couldn't still make something happen but...it's getting doubtful.

Golden Sox
02-09-2013, 08:23 PM
With John Danks coming back and signing Keppinger, I don't see why the White Sox won't get into the Playoffs in 2013. If we don't have any serious injuries from our team and everybody performs like they can it should be a great season on the Southside of Chicago.

DonnieDarko
02-09-2013, 08:56 PM
With John Danks coming back and signing Keppinger, I don't see why the White Sox won't get into the Playoffs in 2013. If we don't have any serious injuries from our team and everybody performs like they can it should be a great season on the Southside of Chicago.

What brand Kool-Aid do you drink? :D:

cards press box
02-09-2013, 09:32 PM
With John Danks coming back and signing Keppinger, I don't see why the White Sox won't get into the Playoffs in 2013. If we don't have any serious injuries from our team and everybody performs like they can it should be a great season on the Southside of Chicago.

I think you are on to something. A healthy and effective Danks would give the Sox a very powerful rotation. And after a year's experience in 2012, this bullpen could be lights out, too.

Might the Sox need to tweak the offense with perhaps an upgrade at catcher? That is a possibility but as the Sox showed in 2012 with the Youkilis deal, that could be done on the fly during the season if necessary.

I am looking forward to the 2013 Sox.

Mr. Jinx
02-09-2013, 09:32 PM
With John Danks coming back and signing Keppinger, I don't see why the White Sox won't get into the Playoffs in 2013. If we don't have any serious injuries from our team and everybody performs like they can it should be a great season on the Southside of Chicago.

Mercy!

Wedema
02-09-2013, 09:58 PM
What brand Kool-Aid do you drink? :D:


I drink silver and black kool aid.

central44
02-09-2013, 10:13 PM
People keep acting like the Tigers don't have 6 impact bats in their lineup, 2 being two of the best in all of baseball, and a much better pitching staff.


NOBODY is doing that. Everybody is acknowledging that on paper, the Tigers have a better team. But games aren't played on paper. The Sox have a tremendous advantage both defensively and in the bullpen, and that counts for something too. Tyler Flowers has never started at the MLB level, and there's a chance--maybe not a high one, but a chance--that he might perform well with consistent playing time. Dayan Viciedo is 22 years old. He *might* get better. Maybe he won't, but nobody--including you--has any way of knowing that. Hell, there's a chance he might have a breakout year and hit .280 with 40 HRs. I'm not saying i'm holding my breath on it. But it CAN happen. Did anyone think Jose Bautista was going to do that?

Its so aggravating to read this crap because nobody has a clue. All we can do is speculate, and even the "experts" are limited to educated guesses. So to come in here spewing nonsense about how the Sox have no chance and Sale is going to get hurt and overall we shouldn't even bother with this team...I mean, what can you even say to that? It's sad.

There are so many variables at play in each and every game, and when you project those out for a full season...there are tons of possibilities. You don't know anything, just like the experts don't know anything, just like I don't know anything, etc. We can guess, but that's it. But you present your guesses as absolute fact, and that pisses people off.

Finally--this was supposed to be a thread about White Sox trade possibilities. Wow.

Mr. Jinx
02-09-2013, 10:57 PM
NOBODY is doing that.

It looks like Goldensox is.

Falstaff
02-10-2013, 01:18 AM
NOBODY is doing that. Everybody is acknowledging that on paper, the Tigers have a better team. But games aren't played on paper. The Sox have a tremendous advantage both defensively and in the bullpen, and that counts for something too. Tyler Flowers has never started at the MLB level, and there's a chance--maybe not a high one, but a chance--that he might perform well with consistent playing time. Dayan Viciedo is 22 years old. He *might* get better. Maybe he won't, but nobody--including you--has any way of knowing that. Hell, there's a chance he might have a breakout year and hit .280 with 40 HRs. I'm not saying i'm holding my breath on it. But it CAN happen. Did anyone think Jose Bautista was going to do that?

Its so aggravating to read this crap because nobody has a clue. All we can do is speculate, and even the "experts" are limited to educated guesses. So to come in here spewing nonsense about how the Sox have no chance and Sale is going to get hurt and overall we shouldn't even bother with this team...I mean, what can you even say to that? It's sad.

There are so many variables at play in each and every game, and when you project those out for a full season...there are tons of possibilities. You don't know anything, just like the experts don't know anything, just like I don't know anything, etc. We can guess, but that's it. But you present your guesses as absolute fact, and that pisses people off.

Finally--this was supposed to be a thread about White Sox trade possibilities. Wow.

Yes. I think Dayan and Sale have potentially high ceiling for their production this year, given their youth. Will be moving into peak seasons if not this year then soon. Andf Danks comes back near career norms... then 2013 Sox > 2012 by about 8-10 games. Dunn will be the big unknown and potentially drag the ship down if he does what he Dunn in the past. Also look for Quintana to improve upon his groundwork of 2012. Yes would love to get another bat like Melton/glove of Crede at 3rd, or Iguchi glove/Orta bat at 2nd but maybe Gordon will surprise. GO GO WHITE SOX

SBSoxFan
02-10-2013, 07:11 AM
It looks like Goldensox is.

No (s)he's not. Goldensox said nothing about the Tigers. If the Tigers when the AL Central, the Sox still have two more chances to make the playoffs.

DaveFeelsRight
02-10-2013, 01:11 PM
Man, some of you guys get so pessimistic.

DonnieDarko
02-10-2013, 03:01 PM
Man, some of you guys get so pessimistic.

To be fair, there are a lot of unknowns on this team...and that's not a good thing. With just that in mind I'm thinking that it's fair to be pessimistic.

Frater Perdurabo
02-10-2013, 04:36 PM
To be fair, there are a lot of unknowns on this team...and that's not a good thing. With just that in mind I'm thinking that it's fair to be pessimistic.

To be fair, the 2005 team had a lot of unknowns. (Please understand I am not predicting that every unknown will turn out well, and I am not predicting the 2013 White Sox will win the World Series.)

Nevertheless, the 2005 Sox had:

A starting catcher who had been released from his previous team, backed up by a career minor leaguer;

A first baseman who had a great 2004 after an abysmal 2003;

A second baseman who had never played a game in the USA;

A shortstop who struck out a lot swinging for the fences;

A third baseman with a long swing who had yet to hit consistently at the MLB level;

A LF who had no power;

A CF who had a nice 2004 but was still questionable;

An injury-prone RF;

A DH on the DL and another who was a headcase;

A starting rotation consisting of a #2 who was a Seattle flyball pitcher, a Cuban import who was inconsistent at best in NY, another Cuban import who seemed to be on the downside of his career, another who had yet to harness his talent and had done time in the bullpen in 2004, and an "ace" who had had a few great years for the Sox but whose K/9 rate was dropping;

A bullpen with a gimmick closer.

DonnieDarko
02-10-2013, 05:24 PM
To be fair, the 2005 team had a lot of unknowns. (Please understand I am not predicting that every unknown will turn out well, and I am not predicting the 2013 White Sox will win the World Series.)

Nevertheless, the 2005 Sox had:

A starting catcher who had been released from his previous team, backed up by a career minor leaguer;

A first baseman who had a great 2004 after an abysmal 2003;

A second baseman who had never played a game in the USA;

A shortstop who struck out a lot swinging for the fences;

A third baseman with a long swing who had yet to hit consistently at the MLB level;

A LF who had no power;

A CF who had a nice 2004 but was still questionable;

An injury-prone RF;

A DH on the DL and another who was a headcase;

A starting rotation consisting of a #2 who was a Seattle flyball pitcher, a Cuban import who was inconsistent at best in NY, another Cuban import who seemed to be on the downside of his career, another who had yet to harness his talent and had done time in the bullpen in 2004, and an "ace" who had had a few great years for the Sox but whose K/9 rate was dropping;

A bullpen with a gimmick closer.

Fair enough point. I certainly realize that it's possible for the White Sox to win the world series again. I just don't see it as particularly likely, with so many question marks.

Whatever. This is baseball. Strange stuff happens all the time.

Golden Sox
02-10-2013, 07:26 PM
You have to be optimistic in life, otherwise you can grow up to be like Jay Mariotti. I've been upbeat about the 2013 White Sox season simply because I think they're going to better in 2013 than what they were in 2012. That being the case the Playoffs will be reached by the White Sox in 2013. There will be dancing in the streets on the great Southside of Chicago this October when the White Sox are in the Playoffs. It'll be good to see one team from Chicago in the 2013 Playoffs.

ChiSoxGal85
02-10-2013, 07:44 PM
To be fair, the 2005 team had a lot of unknowns. (Please understand I am not predicting that every unknown will turn out well, and I am not predicting the 2013 White Sox will win the World Series.)

Nevertheless, the 2005 Sox had:

A starting catcher who had been released from his previous team, backed up by a career minor leaguer;

A first baseman who had a great 2004 after an abysmal 2003;

A second baseman who had never played a game in the USA;

A shortstop who struck out a lot swinging for the fences;

A third baseman with a long swing who had yet to hit consistently at the MLB level;

A LF who had no power;

A CF who had a nice 2004 but was still questionable;

An injury-prone RF;

A DH on the DL and another who was a headcase;

A starting rotation consisting of a #2 who was a Seattle flyball pitcher, a Cuban import who was inconsistent at best in NY, another Cuban import who seemed to be on the downside of his career, another who had yet to harness his talent and had done time in the bullpen in 2004, and an "ace" who had had a few great years for the Sox but whose K/9 rate was dropping;

A bullpen with a gimmick closer.
:thumbsup:

If players were robots, maybe we could predict the outcome of the season from past performance and statistical analysis. But a lot of human-related things can happen during the season that makes the season worth watching, on both ends of the spectrum - from injuries to career years.

I can't wait. I'll be watching.

34rancher
02-10-2013, 08:37 PM
You have to be optimistic in life, otherwise you can grow up to be like Jay Mariotti. I've been upbeat about the 2013 White Sox season simply because I think they're going to better in 2013 than what they were in 2012. That being the case the Playoffs will be reached by the White Sox in 2013. There will be dancing in the streets on the great Southside of Chicago this October when the White Sox are in the Playoffs. It'll be good to see one team from Chicago in the 2013 Playoffs.

You're right on many levels. And in my everyday life I'm about as positive a person there is. Last year i was wrong in thinking sox would go 72-90. Im still not sure of how they some of the games they did. I'm not sure where they will be this year, but on paper they make me incredibly nervous. I loved the intangibles and intelligence that AJ brought and worry what that will bring.
When it come to Chicago sports lately, I just have not liked the intangibles of a few of the players. I think power is important, but I prefer consistnecy and day to day production much more. The 2005 team was great because they could do so many things well to score runs and beat you. They didn't rely on the 40+ home run guy who strikes out 200+ times. I've never been a fan of the Thome/Dunn type player. The sox have really only done well with one team like that in the last 30 years and that was 83 luzinski/kittle. There have been 3 players who I think are polarizing figures for where people stand for this team: peavy, rios, and Dunn. I have been pretty vocal in my dislike of peavy and Dunn on sox and pretty vocal in support of the tools Alex brings. I think the high salaries vs the return haven't really been productive and at times hinders the teams finances. Only time will tell, but the Tigers are gonna be formidable.
As for trades, I don't see any on horizon. I'm not real sure of contract status and who will be trade bait at the deadline. Anyone know that?

sullythered
02-11-2013, 12:14 AM
You're right on many levels. And in my everyday life I'm about as positive a person there is. Last year i was wrong in thinking sox would go 72-90. Im still not sure of how they some of the games they did. I'm not sure where they will be this year, but on paper they make me incredibly nervous. I loved the intangibles and intelligence that AJ brought and worry what that will bring.
When it come to Chicago sports lately, I just have not liked the intangibles of a few of the players. I think power is important, but I prefer consistnecy and day to day production much more. The 2005 team was great because they could do so many things well to score runs and beat you. They didn't rely on the 40+ home run guy who strikes out 200+ times. I've never been a fan of the Thome/Dunn type player. The sox have really only done well with one team like that in the last 30 years and that was 83 luzinski/kittle. There have been 3 players who I think are polarizing figures for where people stand for this team: peavy, rios, and Dunn. I have been pretty vocal in my dislike of peavy and Dunn on sox and pretty vocal in support of the tools Alex brings. I think the high salaries vs the return haven't really been productive and at times hinders the teams finances. Only time will tell, but the Tigers are gonna be formidable.
As for trades, I don't see any on horizon. I'm not real sure of contract status and who will be trade bait at the deadline. Anyone know that?

We should probably stop making the Thome/Dunn comparison. I kinda like Dunn, but he's nowhere near the hitter Jim Thome was. Thome regularly hit near .300, along with the walks, and didn't strike out quite as much.

Also, looking at it in a macro sense, the two main things the '05 Sox did were to hit a ton of homers and have really, really good starting pitching. I know it's not what a lot of statisticians love, but I like it. It was the only thing that won for my favorite team, and I think this team could do that.

Lip Man 1
02-11-2013, 11:28 AM
Sully:

The 2005 Sox also did the "little things" by the bushel and that meant wins when they weren't hitting home runs. They could beat you with a bloop, a bunt or a blast.

Sox were in the top five in the league that year in:

stolen bases, sacrifice bunts, infield hits and sacrifice flys.

Lip

doublem23
02-11-2013, 11:32 AM
Also, looking at it in a macro sense, the two main things the '05 Sox did were to hit a ton of homers and have really, really good starting pitching. I know it's not what a lot of statisticians love, but I like it. It was the only thing that won for my favorite team, and I think this team could do that.

They also had an exceptional bullpen thanks to a couple of well-timed career years by otherwise unremarkable pitchers (looking at you, Luis Vizcaino, Cliff Politte, Neal Cotts, and Dustin Hermanson) that helped mask a lot of the shortcomings of their otherwise mediocre offense.