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BuehrleACE56
07-30-2002, 02:51 AM
i think that we should move thomas somehow and resign clayton at the end of the year. i think he just might be the answer to our SS problem. jose is not the answer and jiminez/hummel are not ready yet. i think if we just put him in the #9 spot and play him for his defense then he will be all right. it takes until the all star break for his bat to heat up, but once it does he is all right. he's been batting really well lately. plus with young pitchers on the mound, we need good defense behind them. SS is a defensive position and clayton is the best we've got. next year:

Harris (2nd base)
Rowand (CF)
Konerko (1st base)
Maggs (RF)
Liefer (DH)
Crede (3rd base)
Borchard (LF)
Paul/MJ (C)
Clayton (SS)

I personally really like that lineup and defense. i like all of those guys and would love to see that on opening day. with graffy on the bench as a utility infielder and whomever is not playing of the MJ/Paul tandem is a start for a good bench. then we just need to sign/trade/call up some guys for the rest of the bench and we'll be ok. With Buehrle, Garland, and Wright as our main starters, hopefully we can sign or trade for two other guys like a #3-#4 type guy (Danny could pitch in the five slot really well). with ginter, biddle, and marte to anchor the bullpen we could sign/call-up some other guys to fill it in. then we've got our team. most of it has been done with durham, lofton, and sandy gone. jose would be a valuable guy for the bench i think to play SS, 3rd, DH, or wherever we need him, but moving him wouldn't be a bad thing. this is my take on next year as to what would work. i'd like to see it.

KruseControl04
07-30-2002, 02:58 AM
I agree. We should trade Jose and Thomas before the deadline. But what we really need for next year is some kind of pitching. These minor league bums are not going to do us any good. If we don't trade Jose or Frank now, lets trade them in the offseason for some quality starting pitching. How does that sound?

kermittheefrog
07-30-2002, 03:02 AM
****in' drug abusers and their cockamame Clayton keeping schemes.

capn12
07-30-2002, 03:20 AM
I hate to reiterate on one point in particular, but Joe Borchard is NOWHERE near ready to be a major leaguer, unless we really do want the MLB record for K's in a season. Carlos Lee is still the answer in LF, and this organization isnt gonna give up on him at age 26.
As for DH, I'm with the apparent small minority that you dont get rid of one of baseballs best hitters in history because he has an average season the year after a torn biceps. I'm not sure what everyone keeps seeing in Jeff Leifer, but the guy would be no better that .230 as a full-time DH. With Jimenez/Hummel/Valentin/Clayton or whoever is at short next year, we dont need 2 automatic .250 max hitters, not while playing unprovens at 3 of the 4 infield positions. Yeah, he hit 18 HRs last year, but what do you do when a lefty is pitching for the opposition? Leif is a career .152 vs Lefties.....that wont cut it.....Russell Branyon-itis. You DON'T trade away a proven hitter for a 28 year old maybe.
As for Royce, forget it...he is as good as gone. If anyone offered KW anything right now, Clayton would be moved. He is a proven cancer in the clubhouse, a "my stats are what matter to me" type of guy. Unfortunately, Jimenez is supposedly as bad. So here is what I propose:

Harris 2B
Valentin SS
Lee LF
Ordonez RF
Konerko 1B
Thomas DH
Rowand CF
Crede 3B
Paul/ MJ C

That leaves a bench of Graffanino, Paul/MJ, 2 others as yet to be determined.

Buehrle SP
Garland SP
??????? SP
Wright SP
Glover/Biddle SP

Of course that means that we either need to pick up another SP, BETTER than Toad Ritchie, or someone wins the job next year in ST. Trading Leifer and Malone/Almonte may result in a "decent" pickup for a #3.

Bullpen:

Parque Long Relief
Biddle/Glover Long Relief
Ginter Short Relief
Wunsch Lefty Spec.
Howry/Simas Righty Spec.
Marte Setup Man
Foulke Closer

This Bullpen works as long as Foulke is able to get "it" back, as I think he will. Osuna, he is FA bound. Parque will be back up, mostly because he is a lefty, and actually been looking decent. I was kinda hoping that we could package Lofton and Howry to SF for Livan Hernandez. I think he coulda been a pretty good #3, but cest la vie I guess. I leave Howry as a ? because we still might see him moved, and Simas would be a great story, and a good clubhouse guy. Lord knows, we need some chemistry on this team.

This would be a pretty solid team I think, small(er) payroll than 2002, and only 2 rooks in the Lineup. Marte has been REAL solid, and lets face it; none of the guys we got in trades this year are gonna make an impact soon, Malone should be trade bait IMO, he is very erradic with control. Rauch may be ready by SP, but rushing him once hurt us, lets not do it again. There really isnt anyone else ready to contribute. The darkhorse could be Royce Ring. He isnt gonna be in the minors long, due to both his talent and his age.

Lets do it the right way this time around with the kids. Just the right mix of veterans and youth, ala Oakland, and the Central can be ours again soon. I for one, think that talk with Jim Palmer really helped Glover and Wright, and Coop should be the pitching coach next year, as long as he wants to be. The rest of the coaching staff should be given one more run with this youth, 'cept maybe Pettis.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
07-30-2002, 04:32 AM
I hate talking about "next year" its too cubbish.

Iguana775
07-30-2002, 07:45 AM
i dont want klayton anywhere near a sox clubhouse next year.

LongDistanceFan
07-30-2002, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
.

are you telling me that we should resign clayton for next yr lineup?

to put it mildly, no-way.

kermittheefrog
07-30-2002, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


are you telling me that we should resign clayton for next yr lineup?

to put it mildly, no-way.

This is obviously a troll dude. No one is dumb enough to want to keep Clayton.

BuehrleACE56
07-30-2002, 11:21 AM
:thechoice

:)

34rancher
07-30-2002, 11:44 AM
I say NO MORE TRADES!!!!! Kenny will screw that up. I can't figure out why we are moving people for NOTHING and PAYING THEIR SALARIES. ***!?!?!?!?!?!?! Stupid.

Daver
07-30-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by 34rancher
I say NO MORE TRADES!!!!! Kenny will screw that up. I can't figure out why we are moving people for NOTHING and PAYING THEIR SALARIES. ***!?!?!?!?!?!?! Stupid.

Its called spending the money you would have spent anyway's to acquire minor league talent.No one that has been traded will be with the team next year anyway,and along the way KW has picked up a couple of good prospects.

LongDistanceFan
07-30-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


This is obviously a troll dude. No one is dumb enough to want to keep Clayton.

or a family member of clayton.

voodoochile
07-30-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


or a family member of clayton.

Are you saying that Uncle Jerry is posting on this board with the screen name BuehrleAce? Must be because JerryManuel was already taken. Maybe he should go with "The Tinkerer".

As to the original topic...

Whatchubeensmokinboy?

Posts like that will get you banned from the

:partybus

Resign Clayton... sheesh, can we bring back Lamie and Ken Hill too?

34rancher
07-30-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by daver


Its called spending the money you would have spent anyway's to acquire minor league talent.No one that has been traded will be with the team next year anyway,and along the way KW has picked up a couple of good prospects.
Daver, I agree with this. And thankfully, Kenny has not traded anyone that would have been back next year. But when talking of trading the rest of the vets, I say stop. We would be trading major leaguers that are locked into contracts for players that may never see 35th st. Also, from a franchise that has cried poor for years, I just don't agree with paying salaries for other teams. If they want our players, then they should pay the salaries too. Let the buyer beware, not let's give them an insurance policy. If they want that, let them call AFLAC.

Daver
07-30-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher

Daver, I agree with this. And thankfully, Kenny has not traded anyone that would have been back next year. But when talking of trading the rest of the vets, I say stop. We would be trading major leaguers that are locked into contracts for players that may never see 35th st. Also, from a franchise that has cried poor for years, I just don't agree with paying salaries for other teams. If they want our players, then they should pay the salaries too. Let the buyer beware, not let's give them an insurance policy. If they want that, let them call AFLAC.

There really isn't anyone left outside of Clayton that can be moved in this way,and I doubt that a taker could be found for him,unless KW wants to deal Leifer,and his value is about squat.

hold2dibber
07-30-2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher

Daver, I agree with this. And thankfully, Kenny has not traded anyone that would have been back next year. But when talking of trading the rest of the vets, I say stop. We would be trading major leaguers that are locked into contracts for players that may never see 35th st. Also, from a franchise that has cried poor for years, I just don't agree with paying salaries for other teams. If they want our players, then they should pay the salaries too. Let the buyer beware, not let's give them an insurance policy. If they want that, let them call AFLAC.

That's simply not realistic in this climate - most of the deals that have happened during this year's trading season have included $ going along with the higher paid player. The Sox are not doing anything differently than the other teams. I have no problem with how they've handled the situation, except it seems that the guy with the most value (Durham) brought the least in return (and I'll be pissed if they trade Valentin).

Daver
07-30-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


That's simply not realistic in this climate - most of the deals that have happened during this year's trading season have included $ going along with the higher paid player. The Sox are not doing anything differently than the other teams. I have no problem with how they've handled the situation, except it seems that the guy with the most value (Durham) brought the least in return (and I'll be pissed if they trade Valentin).

There really wasn't a market for Durham,when you only have one taker you take what you can get.

34rancher
07-30-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by daver


There really wasn't a market for Durham,when you only have one taker you take what you can get.
Then they could have at least gotten a bag of balls to go along with this then.

jlh221fan
07-30-2002, 12:55 PM
Sorry, but Jose is a much better all-around player than Royce. I don't like his errors, but he get to more balls than Royce. Remember, they won 95 games 2 years ago with him at SS. He has been disappointing this season, I'll admit, but Clayton's weak bat is a luxury that cannot be afforded.

KruseControl04
07-30-2002, 02:35 PM
:thechoice

Hey man, Choice has been batting .288 since the all-star break, that ain't half bad. And he is awesome on defense. Who said that Jose can get to more balls than Choice? Even if he could (which he can't) he'd throw all those extra plays away costing the Sox a 2-base throwing error. I like Choice, I hope he stays with the White Sox for next season. We need him. (Plus he's one of the only guys on the Sox to wear his pants jacked up with the high socks, and we all know we like that look)

BuehrleACE56
07-30-2002, 02:37 PM
preach on kruser! amen.

doublem23
07-30-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by KruseControl04
:thechoice

Hey man, Choice has been batting .288 since the all-star break, that ain't half bad. And he is awesome on defense. Who said that Jose can get to more balls than Choice? Even if he could (which he can't) he'd throw all those extra plays away costing the Sox a 2-base throwing error. I like Choice, I hope he stays with the White Sox for next season. We need him. (Plus he's one of the only guys on the Sox to wear his pants jacked up with the high socks, and we all know we like that look)

Another season with the Choice?

Someone hand me a gun now.

I know, its so nice of him to start hitting again now that we have NO chance at going anywhere.

Royce Clayton, you suck.

hold2dibber
07-30-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by KruseControl04
:thechoice

Hey man, Choice has been batting .288 since the all-star break, that ain't half bad. And he is awesome on defense. Who said that Jose can get to more balls than Choice? Even if he could (which he can't) he'd throw all those extra plays away costing the Sox a 2-base throwing error. I like Choice, I hope he stays with the White Sox for next season. We need him. (Plus he's one of the only guys on the Sox to wear his pants jacked up with the high socks, and we all know we like that look)

I'm biting my tongue so hard (figuratively) that it's about to pop off. Must ... resist ... urge ... to ... re-start ... choice vs. manos debate ... Lord give me strength!

doublem23
07-30-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


I'm biting my tongue so hard (figuratively) that it's about to pop off. Must ... resist ... urge ... to ... re-start ... choice vs. manos debate ... Lord give me strength!

LOL! Don't worry. There are plenty of us here who realize that, yes, in fact, the Choice sucks.

hold2dibber
07-30-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by daver


There really wasn't a market for Durham,when you only have one taker you take what you can get.

That's a good point; it's easy to say KW got taken, but we have no idea who else was in on the bidding. With that said, I still think a better GM/negotiator would have been able to drum up some interest elsewhere, or at least bluff some interest, to get Beane to cough up a little more. I also wonder if KW could have gotten the Dodgers to bid on Durham before they picked up Tyler Houston. The Dodgers gave up much better prospects for Houston than we got for Durham, and I don't think there's any question that Durham is better than Houston. I wonder if there were ever any talks with the Dodgers and if not, why not.

doublem23
07-30-2002, 03:53 PM
Well, if no one was going to bid on Durham, why didn't we just keep him, let him go via F/A next year (assuming there is baseball, which is looking like a HUGE assumption) and get the supplemental draft pick for him.

Better than Jon "I suck at AAA" Adkins.

hold2dibber
07-30-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Well, if no one was going to bid on Durham, why didn't we just keep him, let him go via F/A next year (assuming there is baseball, which is looking like a HUGE assumption) and get the supplemental draft pick for him.

Better than Jon "I suck at AAA" Adkins.

Some people think that the new collective bargaining agreement will do away with the provision providing for draft pick compensation for those that lose free agents. Thus, Kenny had to weigh the possibility of getting nothing for Durham against the possibility of getting a draft pick against taking Adkins. One must assume that he either felt that there was a substantial chance that he'd get no compensation at the end of the year, or that Adkins is better than anyone that might be available with the draft choice (which is awfully hard to believe based upon his career stats).

Randar68
07-30-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Some people think that the new collective bargaining agreement will do away with the provision providing for draft pick compensation for those that lose free agents. Thus, Kenny had to weigh the possibility of getting nothing for Durham against the possibility of getting a draft pick against taking Adkins. One must assume that he either felt that there was a substantial chance that he'd get no compensation at the end of the year, or that Adkins is better than anyone that might be available with the draft choice (which is awfully hard to believe based upon his career stats).


In addition, in order to get Draft Pick compensation, you must offer the player arbitration. I think it's even more likely that Kenny knew he would not offer it, and thus, assuredly get nothing in return.

Daver
07-30-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



In addition, in order to get Draft Pick compensation, you must offer the player arbitration. I think it's even more likely that Kenny knew he would not offer it, and thus, assuredly get nothing in return.

In what will prove to be a weak FA market next year Ray would have accepted arbitration most likely.

doublem23
07-30-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



In addition, in order to get Draft Pick compensation, you must offer the player arbitration. I think it's even more likely that Kenny knew he would not offer it, and thus, assuredly get nothing in return.

:o:

That's news to me. Damn, I 'spose I should shut my mouth.

soxtalker
07-30-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by daver


In what will prove to be a weak FA market next year Ray would have accepted arbitration most likely.

And even if KW figured that he would be willing to take the chance that Durham would not have accepted arbitration, he ran the risk that compensation will be eliminated to remove union control over the draft.

soxtalker
07-30-2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


And even if KW figured that he would be willing to take the chance that Durham would not have accepted arbitration, he ran the risk that compensation will be eliminated to remove union control over the draft.

Sorry, point was already made earlier....