PDA

View Full Version : White Sox don't have to make any more trades/moves


sunofgold
12-22-2012, 09:39 PM
We can create a 25 man roster. No need to make a trade just for the sake of
Making a trade. Being patient might not be the worst thing right now. Floyd might be a good value if Ejax can fetch $13m/year.

Pitchers (12)
Sale
peavy
Danks
Floyd
Quintana
Santiago
Veal
Thornton
Crain
Jones
Reed
In house reliever in final slot like Martinez or Omogrosso.

infielders 5
Konerko
Beckham
Ramirez
Keppinger
Sanchez

Outfielders 5
Rios
de Aza
Viciedo
wise
Jordan Danks

DH/1b
Adam Dunn

c
flowers
Gimenez

russ99
12-22-2012, 10:25 PM
We can create a 25 man roster. No need to make a trade just for the sake of
Making a trade. Being patient might not be the worst thing right now. Floyd might be a good value if Ejax can fetch $13m/year.

Pitchers (12)
Sale
peavy
Danks
Floyd
Quintana
Santiago
Veal
Thornton
Crain
Jones
Reed
In house reliever in final slot like Martinez or Omogrosso.

infielders 5
Konerko
Beckham
Ramirez
Keppinger
Sanchez

Outfielders 5
Rios
de Aza
Viciedo
wise
Jordan Danks

DH/1b
Adam Dunn

c
flowers
Gimenez

Not a bad .500 team, but I'd think we'd need to improve a few spots to have a chance to contend.

We still need experienced relief help, another bench outfielder with pop to take some righty at-bats from Viciedo (if he's not traded) and at least an experienced catcher who can hit. Gimenez is not a major league quality backup, and we need some cover for Flowers - especially if he goes south with the bat.

I'd also think that the Sox should deal Thornton to free up some salary - he's got an easily declined option after the season and earns $5.5M this year

Lip Man 1
12-23-2012, 11:24 AM
Suno:

I disagree. The Sox need some hitters in that lineup. They are probably going to have to trade some pitching to get them.

There are five players on your projected roster that would not be on the roster of any real "contender" in my opinion. Like Russ speculated, with that roster you might get to .500...maybe.

Lip

Tragg
12-23-2012, 11:34 AM
The Sox don't have to do anything, if they want a c. 500 team. But as is currently constructed, the team lacks pop and the bench is painful to even contemplate.
But they have to do something to contend. And if they can't get that done, I'd prefer that they drop back to a 75 win team and get some young players in here.

LITTLE NELL
12-23-2012, 12:33 PM
For this team to contend with the present roster it must depend on pitching from our staff like we haven't seen since the 50s and 60s. I have no problem with letting AJ and Youk walk, their best years are behind them but if we are to contend we need some better hitters in the lineup. If Dunn bats 3rd for us, we aren't going to give the Tigers much of a battle, more like a battle for 2nd place with the rest of the division.

kittle42
12-23-2012, 01:05 PM
he's got an easily declined option after the season and earns $5.5M this year

"Earns."

thomas35forever
12-23-2012, 01:27 PM
So far this offseason, all we've done is let two key offensive players walk and signed Keppinger. More moves, better moves, need to happen if we're going to challenge Detroit again. If you couldn't finish the job with the most recent roster, the current one definitely won't do it either. Get someone to provide some leadership if we get caught in another stretch run.

BainesHOF
12-23-2012, 02:13 PM
My goodness, this team still needs to make some moves. We can improve a lot at second base, catcher and left field. Then there's the bench.

blandman
12-23-2012, 03:01 PM
To echo what a few have said, this is a decent middle of the pack roster. In the past, it's what we've built year in and out, hoping to luck into close to 90 wins. The unfortunate thing is now the rest of the Central is getting better, and the Tigers have built a team that has to be unlucky not to win 90 games. The margin of error has become really small and mostly out of our control, unless we get some significant talent additions to the roster.

DonnieDarko
12-23-2012, 03:46 PM
My goodness, this team still needs to make some moves. We can improve a lot at second base, catcher and left field. Then there's the bench.

Please give some viable, realistic things that the White Sox can do to improve at 2B. Personally, I think that Viciedo is fine in LF, but I do agree that the White Sox need a quality backup catcher. And of course, the bench.

blandman
12-23-2012, 03:49 PM
Please give some viable, realistic things that the White Sox can do to improve at 2B. Personally, I think that Viciedo is fine in LF, but I do agree that the White Sox need a quality backup catcher. And of course, the bench.

Just because something is out of our reach doesn't mean it isn't in need of an upgrade.

Domeshot17
12-23-2012, 04:53 PM
That is an 80 win team maybe. Terrible Bullpen, Floyd and Quintana is a weak 4-5, and the offense is not going to consistently score runs.

The Sox big problem is they are below average at so many positions offensively and that bullpen is going to blow leads.

SephClone89
12-23-2012, 05:14 PM
That is an 80 win team maybe. Terrible Bullpen, Floyd and Quintana is a weak 4-5, and the offense is not going to consistently score runs.


Not really. Floyd is pretty decent for a 4. Quintana is still a wild card.

TaylorStSox
12-23-2012, 06:08 PM
That is an 80 win team maybe. Terrible Bullpen, Floyd and Quintana is a weak 4-5, and the offense is not going to consistently score runs.

The Sox big problem is they are below average at so many positions offensively and that bullpen is going to blow leads.
:?:

DumpJerry
12-23-2012, 06:12 PM
That is an 80 win team maybe. Terrible Bullpen, Floyd and Quintana is a weak 4-5, and the offense is not going to consistently score runs.

The Sox big problem is they are below average at so many positions offensively and that bullpen is going to blow leads.
With or without Thornton, the Bullpen will be pretty decent this year.

Noneck
12-23-2012, 06:16 PM
The Sox need quite a bit before they can legitimately compete for the division. How they can get the players is the question. They have very little worth within the organization and haven't spent for FA's. I guess pulling rabbits out of the hat is only possibility.

Bob Roarman
12-23-2012, 07:19 PM
With or without Thornton, the Bullpen will be pretty decent this year.

I don't really know that a decent bullpen is a sure thing for any team in the league. They'll always be the worst pitchers on the staff, they'll almost always be up and down from one year to the next and/or throughout any given year. You just have to hope 2 or 3 of them put together a solid season or perform over their heads (like a few did last season) and you have a good closer (which is still unknown with Reed, we'll see).

CoopaLoop
12-23-2012, 11:00 PM
No reason to have Sanchez at the major league level this year. I'd like to see him get a full year of at bats in the minors instead of sitting on the bench here.

PalehosePlanet
12-23-2012, 11:26 PM
No reason to have Sanchez at the major league level this year. I'd like to see him get a full year of at bats in the minors instead of sitting on the bench here.

I think the OP meant Angel, not Carlos Sanchez. We picked him up in the Rule V draft this year to be a utility man. I'd imagine Carlos, barring injuries, will stay in the minors this season.

CoopaLoop
12-23-2012, 11:51 PM
I think the OP meant Angel, not Carlos Sanchez. We picked him up in the Rule V draft this year to be a utility man. I'd imagine Carlos, barring injuries, will stay in the minors this season.

Oh, word. That makes much more sense.

Domeshot17
12-24-2012, 10:27 AM
Sorry, to clarify a couple things from my original post, I have a bad feeling about both Quintana and Floyd honestly. Floyd's lack of confidence and diminishing control, I just have a gut feeling this is the year it catches up to him and he has an ERA in the 5s. Quintana scares the crap out of me. A soft tossing lefty without great movement or great location, he got the snot kicked out of him the 2nd time teams saw him. I don't think he lasts. If anything, I am more excited about Santiago than I am Quintana. Atleast Santiago has a plus pitch.

The bullpen, I think it has some quality arms, but its thin. I see another year of overuse by Ventura.

CoopaLoop
12-24-2012, 10:40 AM
Sorry, to clarify a couple things from my original post, I have a bad feeling about both Quintana and Floyd honestly. Floyd's lack of confidence and diminishing control, I just have a gut feeling this is the year it catches up to him and he has an ERA in the 5s. Quintana scares the crap out of me. A soft tossing lefty without great movement or great location, he got the snot kicked out of him the 2nd time teams saw him. I don't think he lasts. If anything, I am more excited about Santiago than I am Quintana. Atleast Santiago has a plus pitch.

The bullpen, I think it has some quality arms, but its thin. I see another year of overuse by Ventura.

Well I will take 5 years of data that says he is a pitcher with an ERA just a tick over 4 over your gut feeling.

Floyd is a fine number 4 starter.

I agree with you on Santiago over Quintana though. I like Santiago's stuff more and I wonder if Quintana can do it again now that everyone will have a book out on him.

TaylorStSox
12-24-2012, 11:12 AM
Statistically, Floyd and Anibal Sanchez are the same pitcher. Look at the contract Sanchez just received. That tells you probably GM's value Floyd a lot more than Sox fans.

Hitmen77
12-24-2012, 11:40 AM
Suno:

I disagree. The Sox need some hitters in that lineup. They are probably going to have to trade some pitching to get them.

There are five players on your projected roster that would not be on the roster of any real "contender" in my opinion. Like Russ speculated, with that roster you might get to .500...maybe.

Lip

Yep, if the made no moves they'd be good enough for around .500. But then we Sox fans could retain our annual bragging rights of being the "fiscally responsible" team. We'll scoff at other teams handing out $15M/year contracts to players that are only slightly above average...and then sit at home and watch those same teams play during the post season.

DonnieDarko
12-24-2012, 12:51 PM
Sorry, to clarify a couple things from my original post, I have a bad feeling about both Quintana and Floyd honestly. Floyd's lack of confidence and diminishing control, I just have a gut feeling this is the year it catches up to him and he has an ERA in the 5s. Quintana scares the crap out of me. A soft tossing lefty without great movement or great location, he got the snot kicked out of him the 2nd time teams saw him. I don't think he lasts. If anything, I am more excited about Santiago than I am Quintana. Atleast Santiago has a plus pitch.

The bullpen, I think it has some quality arms, but its thin. I see another year of overuse by Ventura.

I hate to make the comparison, but I don't remember Buehrle having "great movement" on anything but his curveball really. He was also a soft-tossing control pitcher, that, if he didn't have his cutter on that given day, would get hit hard by righties. Going for him, Quintana throws slightly harder than I remember Buehrle throwing at the same age...and he's also still young for a pitcher. If I remember my baseball knowledge right, pitchers usually don't start to really figure stuff out until they're around 27-28 or so...and Quintana is just 23.

I will say that my dad has said that Buehrle was both the best defensive pitcher and smartest pitcher that he's seen since Greg Maddoux, and the best he's seen on the White Sox since Billy Pierce (who was also a soft-tossing lefty?). So Quintana has a high bill to live up to.

Basically what I'm trying to say is have a little faith. I know you have a bad feeling about the guy, but have a little faith. The guy is still baseball young and will have his challenges. What he has shown me so far I like: he's got a lot of guts for a guy his age, and when he's got his control he's pretty good. If his control is off that day, he's shown the ability to limit the damage and at least save the bullpen from having to cover too many innings. I remember two games specifically where this happened--one of them was against the Yankees I'm pretty sure--where he didn't have his control at all during the first two innings or so and got absolutely hammered, but was able to end up going 6-7 innings and help get the team the win.

It remains to be seen if Quintana can fully grasp the strategy side of pitching, but if he does I think he's got a good chance of becoming at the very least serviceable. And honestly, with what he throws and how he throws it, he's going to have to do it eventually if he wants to last in MLB.

Also for the record, I'm not high on Santiago. Sure, he's got a good changeup and a decent fastball and is left-handed...but if his out pitch--that changeup--isn't working...which seemed to happen quite often last season...then it's a struggle for him to get people out. At least Quintana can do it more reliably when in trouble.

I also want to point out something I think is important about Quintana: last year between the minors and the majors the guy threw 185 IP, the most he's done in his professional career. So yes, I think that he got tired toward the end. If he can even flirt with giving the White Sox 200 IP every year and give a .500 effort or even a bit better? I'll take that out of a 5th starter any day at the very least.

Lip Man 1
12-24-2012, 05:19 PM
Donnie:

Billy was a hard thrower who led the A.L. in strikeouts one year (among other categories in his career). Both Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio were quoted as saying Billy "threw very hard..."

Lip

sunofgold
12-24-2012, 06:03 PM
Danks will be back in the rotation. Sale has a year of experience as a starter now. Santiago can be used in the rotation. No Humber in the rotation. Starting rotation seems better now than last year.

Rios and Dunn can build upon their successful 2012 seasons and be even better new year.

Keppinger looks kinda nice in the two spot.

Konerko had a horrible second half but probably bc he was playing hurt. A healthy PK could put up more hrs and RBIs next year.

blandman
12-24-2012, 08:59 PM
Statistically, Floyd and Anibal Sanchez are the same pitcher. Look at the contract Sanchez just received. That tells you probably GM's value Floyd a lot more than Sox fans.

Since he came up, in 6 of 8 seasons Sanchez has posted an ERA in the three's or lower (the two seasons he didn't he wasn't a starter). In what universe has Floyd been that consistent?

edit: Okay, so now I see this is based on NOTHING. Floyd's career ERA is nearly a run higher than Sanchez's. It's not even close.

winstonage
12-24-2012, 10:15 PM
Since he came up, in 6 of 8 seasons Sanchez has posted an ERA in the three's or lower (the two seasons he didn't he wasn't a starter). In what universe has Floyd been that consistent?

edit: Okay, so now I see this is based on NOTHING. Floyd's career ERA is nearly a run higher than Sanchez's. It's not even close.

It's closer than you think. Pitching in the AL will raise your ERA between 1/2 to 3/4 of a run. Floyd is also a fly ball pitcher in a home run hitters park.

PalehosePlanet
12-25-2012, 10:46 PM
Since he came up, in 6 of 8 seasons Sanchez has posted an ERA in the three's or lower (the two seasons he didn't he wasn't a starter). In what universe has Floyd been that consistent?

edit: Okay, so now I see this is based on NOTHING. Floyd's career ERA is nearly a run higher than Sanchez's. It's not even close.

Their Hits/9, K/9, BB/9, WHIP are all about the same career wise. Except that Gavin has pitched his entire career (sans a few outings) in the AL, a hitters league, and in a hitter's park, while Sanchez has pitched in a pitcher's league (sans a few outings) and in pitcher's parks his entire career.

In Interleague games Sanchez has a 5.00 ERA and 1.49 WHIP; Floyd has a 2.79 ERA and a 1.07 WHIP.

Take the AL/NL ERA exchange into account and their ERA is the about the same.

Also, Sanchez has ALWAYS been a starter -- one single relief outing in his fluke 2.83 ERA rookie year. Do your homework for a change before you jump into an argument and so adamantly state your (incorrect) viewpoint Munch.

WhiteSox5187
12-25-2012, 11:27 PM
I hate to make the comparison, but I don't remember Buehrle having "great movement" on anything but his curveball really. He was also a soft-tossing control pitcher, that, if he didn't have his cutter on that given day, would get hit hard by righties. Going for him, Quintana throws slightly harder than I remember Buehrle throwing at the same age...and he's also still young for a pitcher. If I remember my baseball knowledge right, pitchers usually don't start to really figure stuff out until they're around 27-28 or so...and Quintana is just 23.

I will say that my dad has said that Buehrle was both the best defensive pitcher and smartest pitcher that he's seen since Greg Maddoux, and the best he's seen on the White Sox since Billy Pierce (who was also a soft-tossing lefty?). So Quintana has a high bill to live up to.

Basically what I'm trying to say is have a little faith. I know you have a bad feeling about the guy, but have a little faith. The guy is still baseball young and will have his challenges. What he has shown me so far I like: he's got a lot of guts for a guy his age, and when he's got his control he's pretty good. If his control is off that day, he's shown the ability to limit the damage and at least save the bullpen from having to cover too many innings. I remember two games specifically where this happened--one of them was against the Yankees I'm pretty sure--where he didn't have his control at all during the first two innings or so and got absolutely hammered, but was able to end up going 6-7 innings and help get the team the win.

It remains to be seen if Quintana can fully grasp the strategy side of pitching, but if he does I think he's got a good chance of becoming at the very least serviceable. And honestly, with what he throws and how he throws it, he's going to have to do it eventually if he wants to last in MLB.

Also for the record, I'm not high on Santiago. Sure, he's got a good changeup and a decent fastball and is left-handed...but if his out pitch--that changeup--isn't working...which seemed to happen quite often last season...then it's a struggle for him to get people out. At least Quintana can do it more reliably when in trouble.

I also want to point out something I think is important about Quintana: last year between the minors and the majors the guy threw 185 IP, the most he's done in his professional career. So yes, I think that he got tired toward the end. If he can even flirt with giving the White Sox 200 IP every year and give a .500 effort or even a bit better? I'll take that out of a 5th starter any day at the very least.

I agree, I think that Quintana's struggles towards the end of 2012 were much more a result of fatigue rather than the league figuring him out. He faced the Royals three times last year and in his first start he went 5 innings giving up 5 runs, his second start was 7IP and 2 ER, his third start 7IP and 2ER. He also faced the Blue Jays twice 6 and 6.2 IP both times giving up 2 ER.

This will be an interesting year for the White Sox because they are going to find out what they have in Viciedo, Quintana, Santiago, and Flowers while finding out what Konerko has left in the tank. If the White Sox can get significant contributions from the young guys with contributions from the veterans they can contend. If the young guys contribute but the veterans go in the tank, well you have something to build for in the future. If the young guys suck, well, then the White Sox have a lot of problems looming for 2014 and beyond.

Domeshot17
12-26-2012, 09:42 AM
I hate to make the comparison, but I don't remember Buehrle having "great movement" on anything but his curveball really. He was also a soft-tossing control pitcher, that, if he didn't have his cutter on that given day, would get hit hard by righties. Going for him, Quintana throws slightly harder than I remember Buehrle throwing at the same age...and he's also still young for a pitcher. If I remember my baseball knowledge right, pitchers usually don't start to really figure stuff out until they're around 27-28 or so...and Quintana is just 23.

I will say that my dad has said that Buehrle was both the best defensive pitcher and smartest pitcher that he's seen since Greg Maddoux, and the best he's seen on the White Sox since Billy Pierce (who was also a soft-tossing lefty?). So Quintana has a high bill to live up to.

Basically what I'm trying to say is have a little faith. I know you have a bad feeling about the guy, but have a little faith. The guy is still baseball young and will have his challenges. What he has shown me so far I like: he's got a lot of guts for a guy his age, and when he's got his control he's pretty good. If his control is off that day, he's shown the ability to limit the damage and at least save the bullpen from having to cover too many innings. I remember two games specifically where this happened--one of them was against the Yankees I'm pretty sure--where he didn't have his control at all during the first two innings or so and got absolutely hammered, but was able to end up going 6-7 innings and help get the team the win.

It remains to be seen if Quintana can fully grasp the strategy side of pitching, but if he does I think he's got a good chance of becoming at the very least serviceable. And honestly, with what he throws and how he throws it, he's going to have to do it eventually if he wants to last in MLB.

Also for the record, I'm not high on Santiago. Sure, he's got a good changeup and a decent fastball and is left-handed...but if his out pitch--that changeup--isn't working...which seemed to happen quite often last season...then it's a struggle for him to get people out. At least Quintana can do it more reliably when in trouble.

I also want to point out something I think is important about Quintana: last year between the minors and the majors the guy threw 185 IP, the most he's done in his professional career. So yes, I think that he got tired toward the end. If he can even flirt with giving the White Sox 200 IP every year and give a .500 effort or even a bit better? I'll take that out of a 5th starter any day at the very least.

I hope you are right, but Buehrle did have really good movement, and he also had pinpoint control. He also knew how to pitch out of jams. Buehrle is a special kind of pitcher in that he was always going to give up about the same, if not higher, hits than innings pitched, but still succeed. He was comfortable pitching with men on base. He is a fantastic pitch to contact pitcher. He grasps that if he throws a certain pitch in a certain location, the hitter won't do a ton with it.

Quintana, he relies more on deception a little bit. That said, I agree he is still learning how to pitch. Hopefully I am wrong, I would love to be.

Also, with Santiago, do not discredit his screwball. He is still learning to harness that pitch, but if he does, its going to be an out pitch.

WhiteSoxNation
12-26-2012, 11:14 AM
We either need to go rebuild or buy......Sox seem to always be stuck in the middle somewhere...

I'd like to see Thompson, Mitchell, and Sanchez playing in 2012.......Deal Rios, Dunn, Floyd, and Thornton.

Trayce Thompson will one of 1-2-3 hitter by 2015

blandman
12-26-2012, 02:01 PM
Their Hits/9, K/9, BB/9, WHIP are all about the same career wise. Except that Gavin has pitched his entire career (sans a few outings) in the AL, a hitters league, and in a hitter's park, while Sanchez has pitched in a pitcher's league (sans a few outings) and in pitcher's parks his entire career.

In Interleague games Sanchez has a 5.00 ERA and 1.49 WHIP; Floyd has a 2.79 ERA and a 1.07 WHIP.

Take the AL/NL ERA exchange into account and their ERA is the about the same.

Also, Sanchez has ALWAYS been a starter -- one single relief outing in his fluke 2.83 ERA rookie year. Do your homework for a change before you jump into an argument and so adamantly state your (incorrect) viewpoint Munch.

He's never posted an ERA above 4. Floyd has never posted an ERA below 4. You can't possibly think GM's view them as the pitcher.

TaylorStSox
12-26-2012, 02:32 PM
He's never posted an ERA above 4. Floyd has never posted an ERA below 4. You can't possibly think GM's view them as the pitcher.

League differential. Their secondary stats are nearly identical.

blandman
12-26-2012, 02:42 PM
League differential. Their secondary stats are nearly identical.

Yeah. I get that argument. I just don't buy it. We're talking about almost a full run differential (like .78 career). Not to mention, in his time in Detroit Sanchez still posted an ERA under 4 (once again, something Floyd has NEVER done in any season).

TaylorStSox
12-26-2012, 03:38 PM
Yeah. I get that argument. I just don't buy it. We're talking about almost a full run differential (like .78 career). Not to mention, in his time in Detroit Sanchez still posted an ERA under 4 (once again, something Floyd has NEVER done in any season).

Adjusting to the league makes their career Era's different by either. 03 or. 28. Yeah, that's substantial. :?:

doublem23
12-26-2012, 10:20 PM
still posted an ERA under 4 (once again, something Floyd has NEVER done in any season).

2008 says hello

chisoxfanatic
12-27-2012, 10:24 PM
Danks will be back in the rotation. Sale has a year of experience as a starter now. Santiago can be used in the rotation. No Humber in the rotation. Starting rotation seems better now than last year.
Yes, Danks will be back. But, he is a big questionmark in my book. It is yet to be determined how he will return from surgery. I actually am a bit worried that he just won't cut it.

LITTLE NELL
12-28-2012, 06:15 AM
Yes, Danks will be back. But, he is a big questionmark in my book. It is yet to be determined how he will return from surgery. I actually am a bit worried that he just won't cut it.

If Peavy can come back from his injury and surgery the way he did, I'm sure Danks can also.

Frater Perdurabo
12-28-2012, 06:43 AM
If Peavy can come back from his injury and surgery the way he did, I'm sure Danks can also.

I'm comfortable counting on a full recovery from Danks, but Danks' and Peavy's injuries, prognoses, and recoveries are completely different.

Frater Perdurabo
12-28-2012, 06:56 AM
The projected 2013 rotation looks strong. With Sale and Peavy atop the rotation, Danks and Floyd may thrive as the #3/#4 starters (as they did in 2008), and I'm comfortable sticking the winner of the Quintana/Santiago competition in the #5 spot (with the loser in Charlotte or the long relief role).

sunofgold
01-21-2013, 03:35 PM
We can create a 25 man roster. No need to make a trade just for the sake of
Making a trade. Being patient might not be the worst thing right now. Floyd might be a good value if Ejax can fetch $13m/year.

Pitchers (12)
Sale
peavy
Danks
Floyd
Quintana
Santiago
Veal
Thornton
Crain
Jones
Reed
Lindstrom

infielders 5
Konerko
Beckham
Ramirez
Keppinger
Sanchez

Outfielders 5
Rios
de Aza
Viciedo
wise
Jordan Danks

DH/1b
Adam Dunn

c
flowers
Gimenez

added lindstrom to final reliever slot. We don't have to Make any more moves this offseason. A backup catcher addition might be nice but trades can also be made in regular season.

Pitching and defense looks very solid. Hitting should at least be average but if Flowers shows that he can hit than we will be looking real good.

mzh
01-21-2013, 03:48 PM
added lindstrom to final reliever slot. We don't have to Make any more moves this offseason. A backup catcher addition might be nice but trades can also be made in regular season.

Pitching and defense looks very solid. Hitting should at least be average but if Flowers shows that he can hit than we will be looking real good.
That is, if Rios and De Aza don't regress at all, Konerko doesn't continue to show his age, Dunn still manages to hit 40 HR while staying above the Mendoza line, and Flowers/Keppinger matches the production gotten from Pierzynski/Youk, without a litany of health problems we generally avoided last year from Peavy and much of heavily worked young bullpen.

That said, despite what many here think, I can see Viciedo continuing to develop into a solid middle of the order hitter, and what Keppinger brings to the top of the order may more than make up for the overall reduction in power. Perhaps Gordon will finally get comfortable not being shuttled around the order like the last 3 years, and the offense as constructed meshes much better than Sox teams of the past. Who knows. That's why they play the games!

SoxNation05
01-21-2013, 07:05 PM
We either need to go rebuild or buy......Sox seem to always be stuck in the middle somewhere...

I'd like to see Thompson, Mitchell, and Sanchez playing in 2012.......Deal Rios, Dunn, Floyd, and Thornton.

Trayce Thompson will one of 1-2-3 hitter by 2015
Do you actually know anything about the Sox farm or what? Where do you come up with these wants?

mahagga73
01-21-2013, 08:47 PM
Please give some viable, realistic things that the White Sox can do to improve at 2B. Personally, I think that Viciedo is fine in LF, but I do agree that the White Sox need a quality backup catcher. And of course, the bench.
Yeah, I don't agree with that either. seems to be a lot of anti-Gordon around, but he does play great defense and about average at the plate or maybe a little better. Second base is not a position where there are a lot of offensive forces around. I like the middle of the field defense as it is. The Sox flubbed it up last year because their big hitters suddenly all caught chokitis at once .

DSpivack
01-21-2013, 09:09 PM
Yeah, I don't agree with that either. seems to be a lot of anti-Gordon around, but he does play great defense and about average at the plate or maybe a little better. Second base is not a position where there are a lot of offensive forces around. I like the middle of the field defense as it is. The Sox flubbed it up last year because their big hitters suddenly all caught chokitis at once .

Not even close. His OPS+ thus far has been 106, 87, 70, and 78. Thus, only his rookie year was above average and since then he has not really been close to an average hitter.

doublem23
01-22-2013, 07:26 AM
Not even close. His OPS+ thus far has been 106, 87, 70, and 78. Thus, only his rookie year was above average and since then he has not really been close to an average hitter.

That's compared to the whole league, though, if you look at the production other teams get from their 2B, you'll see Gordon isn't giving you much less than a league average player. Little less OBP but a lot more pop.

Now that he's making almost $3 M a year, it's a tougher pill to swallow, though. You can lived with his bat and glove for the league minimum. Probably a make or break year for Gordon's tenure in Chicago especially if Carlos Sanchez has another nice year on the farm.

russ99
01-22-2013, 08:52 AM
I'm OK with a holding pattern for Beckham, Flowers and Viciedo for a half season as long as we also acquire bench players who can step in if they falter to a similar level this year as last.

Sadly, this would have been the best offseason to move Beckham and Viciedo, as their value either will go lower (and salaries higher) with similar levels of plate performance this year as last or they'll do just enough for the Sox to keep them, turning into below average to average players at above average salaries.

IMO, none of the three are quality options going forward. On a post-Konerko and post-Rios roster, we need better (and short of Flowers), more cost-effective talent at all three positions. My biggest nightmare is running out Dunn, Viciedo and Flowers as our power bats: the low average, all or nothing strikeout kings.

doublem23
01-22-2013, 08:55 AM
On a post-Konerko and post-Rios roster, we need better and short of Flowers, more cost-effective talent at all three positions. My biggest nightmare is keeping Dunn, Viciedo and Flowers as our power bats, the strikeout kings.

Adam and Alex's contracts both expire after 2014

russ99
01-22-2013, 08:58 AM
Adam and Alex's contracts both expire after 2014

I wrongly though Rios was this a FA after this year. Looks like it's not only 2014, but the Sox have a club option on Rios for 2015.

blandman
01-22-2013, 09:04 AM
2008 says hello

My bad. He did post a 3.84 era in a season four years ago.

Adjusting to the league makes their career Era's different by either. 03 or. 28. Yeah, that's substantial. :?:

Yeah, and I think that's nonsense. Floyd has a career 4.46 ERA and Sanchez has a 3.75. Yeah, their whips are similar but the difference is in how they get them. Sanchez walks more guys but gets more strikeouts. Floyd simply gives up more hits with less K's, which explains why his ERA is higher.

Just to be clear, Sanchez's career ERA is better than Floyd's best single season ERA. Sanchez's ERA in American League parks is still better than Floyd's career ERA. They are not the same pitcher. Do not fool yourself into thinking GM's believe them equals. Floyd is not getting the deal Sanchez got this offseason. Gavin's got value if we decided to trade him, but he's not worth nearly as much as Sanchez would be with the same contract.

johnnyg83
01-22-2013, 10:13 AM
Terrible Bullpen.

based on what?
ERA WHIP
Lindstrom 2.68 1.255
Veal 1.30 0.692
Thornton 3.46 1.231
Crain 2.44 1.083
Santiago 3.33 1.336
Reed 4.75 1.364
N. Jones 2.39 1.381

Reed's number are disconcerting -- I think/hope he'll be better, but I'm delighted otherwise top to bottom.

SI1020
01-22-2013, 11:38 AM
Not even close. His OPS+ thus far has been 106, 87, 70, and 78. Thus, only his rookie year was above average and since then he has not really been close to an average hitter. I don't believe a strict reading of OPS is applicable to every hitter. Nellie Fox, Red Schoendienst, Jim Gilliam, Bill Mazeroski, and Frank White are all second basemen retiring with an OPS under 100. I'd gladly take any one of them on my team. I don't want to start another old stat, new stat/ youngblood, old fart argument. I just think you have to take all stats in context. I will agree with you that Beckham has been seriously wanting at the plate after showing early promise as a rookie. Time runs out on him this year and the team really needs him to be up to the challenge.

mahagga73
01-22-2013, 01:01 PM
I don't believe a strict reading of OPS is applicable to every hitter. Nellie Fox, Red Schoendienst, Jim Gilliam, Bill Mazeroski, and Frank White are all second basemen retiring with an OPS under 100. I'd gladly take any one of them on my team. I don't want to start another old stat, new stat/ youngblood, old fart argument. I just think you have to take all stats in context. I will agree with you that Beckham has been seriously wanting at the plate after showing early promise as a rookie. Time runs out on him this year and the team really needs him to be up to the challenge.
They still haven't corrected that hitch in his swing. He is way too slow catching up to any kind of fastball belt up . Seems like it takes him ten minutes to actually swing. Too many holes in it. The only pitches he ever hammers are off speed. Plus he will swing at anything. He's a mental mess up there it looks like.

mahagga73
01-22-2013, 01:03 PM
I don't believe a strict reading of OPS is applicable to every hitter. Nellie Fox, Red Schoendienst, Jim Gilliam, Bill Mazeroski, and Frank White are all second basemen retiring with an OPS under 100. I'd gladly take any one of them on my team. I don't want to start another old stat, new stat/ youngblood, old fart argument. I just think you have to take all stats in context. I will agree with you that Beckham has been seriously wanting at the plate after showing early promise as a rookie. Time runs out on him this year and the team really needs him to be up to the challenge.
Was Mazeroski really HOF material? I hear people like Bill James call him the best defensive player ever and others say he was such a mediocre hitter it overshadowed his defense. I'm sure the WS ending homer helped him immensely , but not even being born yet I obviously never saw him play.

Lip Man 1
01-22-2013, 01:13 PM
Mahagga:

Maz was adequate as a hitter but his forte (not Matt!) was his defense.

He was blindly quick on relay throws working a double play in large part because over time he developed the ability to "catch" the ball from the shortstop or 3rd baseman literally on the outside of his glove... basically cradling it between the outside of the pocket and his hand. Then he fired to first.

Just amazing and shaved precious tenths of a second off the relay.

Lip

SI1020
01-22-2013, 02:23 PM
Was Mazeroski really HOF material? I hear people like Bill James call him the best defensive player ever and others say he was such a mediocre hitter it overshadowed his defense. I'm sure the WS ending homer helped him immensely , but not even being born yet I obviously never saw him play. I didn't say he was. I just said that I'd take on my team any of those 2bmen I mentioned. Maz was a marvel on defense, particularly turning the DP, as LM stated.