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chicagowhitesox1
12-06-2012, 06:31 PM
I was reading a bio about Nellie Fox recently and it said Al Lopez may have been a big reason why it took so long for Fox to be elected. Does anyone know of any truth to this because I find it pretty odd Lopez would want to keep Fox out of the hof.

Lopez was on the hof board until 1996 and Fox was finally elected in 1997.

LITTLE NELL
12-06-2012, 07:03 PM
Have always heard rumors about that. WSI mentions it in this article.
Lopez to me is the best Sox manager of all time but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about some bad blood between him and Nellie. It also ticks me off that he didn't start Billy Pierce in any of the World Series games in 1959.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=3039

chicagowhitesox1
12-06-2012, 08:23 PM
That is interesting, from what it sounds like he just didn't like voting for former players he managed. Which is still kinda odd because it still seems like he campaigned to keep Fox out.

Golden Sox
12-06-2012, 09:34 PM
Al Lopez thought Joe Gordon was a better ballplayer than Nellie Fox. He thought Gordon should of been in the Baseball HOF before Fox. Gordon wound up getting into the HOF years after Fox got in. I don't agree of his assessment of the two players, but if thats how he felt, so be it. It's similar to my feelings about Ron "The Scab" Santo getting into the HOF before Dick Allen. Nobody will ever tell me "The Scab" was a better player than Dick Allen. Yet Santo is in the HOF today and Dick Allen isn't.

SephClone89
12-06-2012, 09:43 PM
Al Lopez thought Joe Gordon was a better ballplayer than Nellie Fox. He thought Gordon should of been in the Baseball HOF before Fox. Gordon wound up getting into the HOF years after Fox got in. I don't agree of his assessment of the two players, but if thats how he felt, so be it. It's similar to my feelings about Ron "The Scab" Santo getting into the HOF before Dick Allen. Nobody will ever tell me "The Scab" was a better player than Dick Allen. Yet Santo is in the HOF today and Dick Allen isn't.

Wait. Wait.

What?

You mean...you don't like Ron Santo!?

DumpJerry
12-06-2012, 10:12 PM
Wait. Wait.

What?

You mean...you don't like Ron Santo!?
It's a new development. Apparently Santo said something this past summer that offended him.

SI1020
12-07-2012, 10:14 AM
I still rank Al Lopez as the best Sox manager in my lifetime. However, as anyone who has worked for a living will tell you, even talented bosses have their weaknesses. Lopez could be very thin skinned and dictatorial. Read some of Lip Man's articles on this site. He didn't believe Ray Herbert was hurt until he saw graphic physical evidence. He once pulled Floyd Robinson from a game for a perceived lack of hustle. When Al Lopez would not give Billy Pierce a start in the 59 WS Nellie Fox strongly dissented and I think, that as much as any talent evaluation by Lopez led him to carry a grudge against Nellie. I still wonder if there was a non baseball reason for Lopez holding Pierce back. Al Smith was once quoted as saying "We all knew why Al Lopez didn't pitch him, but we never told anyone and I won't say now." Will someone ever say why?

chicagowhitesox1
12-07-2012, 11:14 AM
I still rank Al Lopez as the best Sox manager in my lifetime. However, as anyone who has worked for a living will tell you, even talented bosses have their weaknesses. Lopez could be very thin skinned and dictatorial. Read some of Lip Man's articles on this site. He didn't believe Ray Herbert was hurt until he saw graphic physical evidence. He once pulled Floyd Robinson from a game for a perceived lack of hustle. When Al Lopez would not give Billy Pierce a start in the 59 WS Nellie Fox strongly dissented and I think, that as much as any talent evaluation by Lopez led him to carry a grudge against Nellie. I still wonder if there was a non baseball reason for Lopez holding Pierce back. Al Smith was once quoted as saying "We all knew why Al Lopez didn't pitch him, but we never told anyone and I won't say now." Will someone ever say why?

I always thought Pierce didn't start because of all the rightys the Dodgers had. I'm sure that must have played a part but it really does sound like Lopez held some sort of grudge against Pierce. But to hold a grudge against Nellie Fox and from what i've read Jim Landis too makes me look at Al Lopez a little different.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2012, 11:56 AM
Even with his faults, I'd take Lopez as manager today in a heartbeat and that's not knock against Robin or Ozzie. Lopez was that good at what he did.

Lip

DSpivack
12-07-2012, 12:04 PM
Even with his faults, I'd take Lopez as manager today in a heartbeat and that's not knock against Robin or Ozzie. Lopez was that good at what he did.

Lip

He died 4 days after the Sox won in 2005. I'd be a little concerned with his effectiveness as manager now. :tongue:

Noneck
12-07-2012, 03:32 PM
He died 4 days after the Sox won in 2005. I'd be a little concerned with his effectiveness as manager now. :tongue:


With all the coaches on a club now a days being a manager is totally over rated. I think there were recent times when a stiff would have been better than what was there.

palehosepub
12-07-2012, 04:24 PM
I don't know if this had anything to do with Billy not pitching in the World Series but I remember reading that Lopez had a problem with Pierce not brushing guys off the plate. maybe he was too nice of a guy for Lopez.

Billy Pierce pitched before my time but in my 40+ years of watching baseball and meeting players I have never met a better gentlemen that Billy Pierce. Met him many times over the years at Charity and season ticket holder events and he always took the time to thoroughly and thoughtfully answer questions. He has been great with young kids too.

If Lopez had an issue with Billy it certainly wasn't about his character or discipline.

chicagowhitesox1
12-07-2012, 05:30 PM
I wonder if maybe because of what Franki Frisch used to do when he was head of the veterans comittee made Lopez hesitant to vote for former players.

Frankie Frisch without a doubt got some of the worst hall of famers
elected during his reign.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2012, 05:38 PM
Ask and ye shall receive. Just spent 20 minutes or so talking with Bill about this.

He doesn't have a 'definite' reason for what happened in 59 but he thought that Al went with Wynn three times because Early was his guy, his big game pitcher from back in Cleveland and because of the short left field fence at the Coliseum.

Bill said he's heard a lot of things over the years as to 'why' but he never asked Al directly about it. Bill also added that he and Al met many times over the years at charity functions, banquets, they often sat together and 'never had a harsh word' between us.

Bill said he was upset at the time but that was washed away because of everything that happened in 1962.

He said it's in the past and over time you forget about it and just remember the good things. Bill said he was very fortunate to play with managers of the like of Paul Richards, Marty Marion and Al Lopez. He said Al was a "great" manager.

As to the Nellie Fox question, Bill (who was Nellie's roomate for 12 years) said that Lopez did in fact vote for Joe Gordon but that was "because he thought Joe was a better player than Nellie and that was his opinion and you have to respect it."

For more on this feel free to read my interview with Bill:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=1546

Lip

chicagowhitesox1
12-07-2012, 07:35 PM
Ask and ye shall receive. Just spent 20 minutes or so talking with Bill about this.

He doesn't have a 'definite' reason for what happened in 59 but he thought that Al went with Wynn three times because Early was his guy, his big game pitcher from back in Cleveland and because of the short left field fence at the Coliseum.

Bill said he's heard a lot of things over the years as to 'why' but he never asked Al directly about it. Bill also added that he and Al met many times over the years at charity functions, banquets, they often sat together and 'never had a harsh word' between us.

Bill said he was upset at the time but that was washed away because of everything that happened in 1962.

He said it's in the past and over time you forget about it and just remember the good things. Bill said he was very fortunate to play with managers of the like of Paul Richards, Marty Marion and Al Lopez. He said Al was a "great" manager.

As to the Nellie Fox question, Bill (who was Nellie's roomate for 12 years) said that Lopez did in fact vote for Joe Gordon but that was "because he thought Joe was a better player than Nellie and that was his opinion and you have to respect it."

For more on this feel free to read my interview with Bill:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=1546

Lip


So you actually talked to Billy Pierce? I wasn't sure if I got that right. I really hope he can get elected into The Hall of Fame while still living. I always thought he was better than Bob Lemon and just as good as Whitey Ford.

Thanks for the feedback too. I always like learning more about the history of the Whitesox. Especially during the 1950's. In a way I kinda have to agree with Al Lopez and why he would vote for Joe Gordon but it's pretty tough to not vote for Nellie Fox.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2012, 09:11 PM
White Sox 1:

Yea I know Bill, he's a good friend. You asked, so I asked him.

The Chicago Baseball Museum is planning on doing something for Bill, like they did for Minnie before the 2014 election. I think Bill can still get in through the veterans committee or something like that.

Lip

chicagowhitesox1
12-08-2012, 12:59 AM
White Sox 1:

Yea I know Bill, he's a good friend. You asked, so I asked him.

The Chicago Baseball Museum is planning on doing something for Bill, like they did for Minnie before the 2014 election. I think Bill can still get in through the veterans committee or something like that.

Lip

Thanks again, I was reading about that whole topic on a different baseball history site and it really made me wonder what really happened. They had a ton of different reasons on the Fox/Lopez hof voting and the Billy Pierce not pitching in the 59 series but the one thing 90 percent of them agree on is that Billy Pierce should be in the Hall of Fame. I find it pretty amazing that you know him and I appreciate the fact he would answer questions. Thanks again.

I would have to think a lot of the older players may not like the saber type of stats and i'm not really sold on them yet but these stats may help guys like Billy Pierce, Minnie Minoso and Richie Allen get in the hof in future votings with a new generation who use saber stats to help with deciding who should be in. Using saber types of stats Billy Pierce is better than probably 20 pitchers already elected.

Golden Sox
12-08-2012, 09:14 AM
Louie Aparcio was traded from the White Sox after the 1962 season because he stopped getting along with Al Lopez. He talked rather openly how Al Lopez had changed since 1959. He didn't demand a trade from the White Sox but he made it pretty well known that he didn't care to play for Lopez anymore. The White Sox then traded Little Looie to Baltimore.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2012, 10:29 AM
Golden:

Not saying you're wrong but the main reason Louie was traded was because he didn't get along moreso with G.M. Ed Short who cut his salary the maximum 20% after the 1962 season and who thought Aparicio was going downhill.

White Sox 1:

Just for the record Billy did pitch in the 1959 World Series, three times in fact but he never started a game.

Lip

cheezheadsoxfan
12-10-2012, 08:02 PM
I do remember problems with Landis and Al Lopez. I don't recall the details but I do recall Landis saying he "had one father and loved him" and didn't need another. Seems like Lopez could be a little dictatorial. But a good manager, yes.

And please dear God, let Billy Pierce into the Hall! He deserves it as much and more than Santo.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2012, 10:54 PM
Cheeze:

Read the link posted earlier in the thread, my story on Lopez the day he died. It answers the issue between Jim and Al.

Lip