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Lip Man 1
12-03-2012, 07:27 PM
According to Hahn. Wise decision, Rick:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-news-offense-20121203,0,235471.story

Lip

CoopaLoop
12-03-2012, 07:33 PM
They need guys who get on base. Far too many low OBP guys in the lineup.

SephClone89
12-03-2012, 07:54 PM
They need guys who get on base. Far too many low OBP guys in the lineup.

Bingo. I don't care if you don't buy into OBP as a great indicator of offensive value--this team needs guys who can get on.

palehozenychicty
12-03-2012, 07:57 PM
We've all long known that. Let's see how they accomplish that balance.

shingo10
12-03-2012, 09:05 PM
If it's not going to be through free agency then you have to give up something of value to get a good return. We are pretty limited in that regard due to age, contracts, ect. I guess Jones and Tank would be our most valuable pieces.

WhiteSox5187
12-03-2012, 09:29 PM
Bingo. I don't care if you don't buy into OBP as a great indicator of offensive value--this team needs guys who can get on.

Agreed. We have too many low average, low OBP guys in our lineup (and it will be even worse if Flowers takes over for Dunn). Last year we had one guy with over 100 ABs and an OBP over .350 and only four guys who hit over .270, if AJ leaves that would leave three guys who hit over .270; and I am still not so sure I trust Rios' consistency.

LoveYourSuit
12-03-2012, 09:42 PM
Zero flexibility Hahn, Zero.

Balance would mean you would have to move 4-5 guys. Not gonna happen.

Noneck
12-03-2012, 09:47 PM
I assume these thoughts Hahn has are for the more distant future, not next year.

slavko
12-03-2012, 11:53 PM
All in with an unbalanced team might be why Hahn has the job. And I'm sticking to that story until I'm talked out of it.

Hitmen77
12-04-2012, 07:39 AM
Talk is cheap. Sox management has been telling us for years about their desire for more offensive balance. It's kind of like how Ozzie used to say year after year that this team needs to get better at fundamentals.....but then nothing ever changed.

Just empty words. I'll believe it when I see it. At least I'll give Hahn the benefit of the doubt since he's new. But, he's got his work cut out for him. I don't think KW left him with much flexibility to work with.

russ99
12-04-2012, 08:50 AM
There is room for a few fixes. I think we're all OK with the job DeAza has done last year, though my only question about him is if he hits leadoff or #2 going forward.

If Youk is gone, that leaves a gaping hole in the 2 spot, and it seems that it would be more cost effective to get an average speed/on-base guy to lead off (with DeAza at #2) than it would be to get an above-average contact hitter with some speed and a little pop. I've mentioned Polanco and Keppinger as lower cost alternatives for 3B/#2 in other posts, but I'd hope for someone younger and better going down the road.

Dunn seems to do better in #3, leave him there. Pretty doubtful that he's moved, but it would solve a ton of issues.

Paul at #4 and Rios at #5 are set for another year.

Alexei at #6 could be a good trade chip, especially if the Sox think Carlos Sanchez is ready.

#7-9 Viciedo, Flowers and Beckham are the prime trade chips. If the Sox can improve run production (not just a few homers and little else) in the lower half of the order, that would make a big difference. I doubt Flowers will be given a full-time role unless he can hit better, and has a better chance of being moved than sticking as a full-time regular.

Would love A.J. to come back and plug a hole for a year, but that doesn't sound too likely right now.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 09:24 AM
There is room for a few fixes. I think we're all OK with the job DeAza has done last year, though my only question about him is if he hits leadoff or #2 going forward.

If Youk is gone, that leaves a gaping hole in the 2 spot, and it seems that it would be more cost effective to get an average speed/on-base guy to lead off (with DeAza at #2) than it would be to get an above-average contact hitter with some speed and a little pop. I've mentioned Polanco and Keppinger as lower cost alternatives for 3B/#2 in other posts, but I'd hope for someone younger and better going down the road.

Dunn seems to do better in #3, leave him there. Pretty doubtful that he's moved, but it would solve a ton of issues.

Paul at #4 and Rios at #5 are set for another year.

Alexei at #6 could be a good trade chip, especially if the Sox think Carlos Sanchez is ready.

#7-9 Viciedo, Flowers and Beckham are the prime trade chips. If the Sox can improve run production (not just a few homers and little else) in the lower half of the order, that would make a big difference. I doubt Flowers will be given a full-time role unless he can hit better, and has a better chance of being moved than sticking as a full-time regular.

Would love A.J. to come back and plug a hole for a year, but that doesn't sound too likely right now.

This thread is basically about improving the team's obp. You want to accomplish that by getting rid of Dunn and Flowers while keeping AJ? :scratch:

LITTLE NELL
12-04-2012, 09:37 AM
There is room for a few fixes. I think we're all OK with the job DeAza has done last year, though my only question about him is if he hits leadoff or #2 going forward.

If Youk is gone, that leaves a gaping hole in the 2 spot, and it seems that it would be more cost effective to get an average speed/on-base guy to lead off (with DeAza at #2) than it would be to get an above-average contact hitter with some speed and a little pop. I've mentioned Polanco and Keppinger as lower cost alternatives for 3B/#2 in other posts, but I'd hope for someone younger and better going down the road.

Dunn seems to do better in #3, leave him there. Pretty doubtful that he's moved, but it would solve a ton of issues.

Paul at #4 and Rios at #5 are set for another year.

Alexei at #6 could be a good trade chip, especially if the Sox think Carlos Sanchez is ready.

#7-9 Viciedo, Flowers and Beckham are the prime trade chips. If the Sox can improve run production (not just a few homers and little else) in the lower half of the order, that would make a big difference. I doubt Flowers will be given a full-time role unless he can hit better, and has a better chance of being moved than sticking as a full-time regular.

Would love A.J. to come back and plug a hole for a year, but that doesn't sound too likely right now.

Dunn has no business batting 3rd, put Rios there with Dunn 4th and PK 5th. I would rather have PK batting 4th but this breaks it up a little. If AJ and Youk are not re-signed I expect some big trade which will change things.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 09:42 AM
This thread is basically about improving the team's obp. You want to accomplish that by getting rid of Dunn and Flowers while keeping AJ? :scratch:

Dunn only put up a .333 OBP last year and I would be stunned if Flowers put up much more than AJ's OBP.

While the White Sox need to improve their OBP I think they also need to improve their batting average. They might have five guys in their lineup who hit below .260.

Procol Harum
12-04-2012, 09:58 AM
Anybody seen any info on where AJ might be getting some free agent interest? It sure would be a lot more strategic for the Sox to make a move if they know he's heading out of the AL, or--at least--the division. I know I don't want to see that guy catching against us for 18 games a season...

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 10:57 AM
Dunn only put up a .333 OBP last year and I would be stunned if Flowers put up much more than AJ's OBP.

While the White Sox need to improve their OBP I think they also need to improve their batting average. They might have five guys in their lineup who hit below .260.

If you look at who potentially may produce high OBP, Flowers and Dunn are 2 of the better available options.

Nellie_Fox
12-04-2012, 11:18 AM
Dunn only put up a .333 OBP last year and I would be stunned if Flowers put up much more than AJ's OBP. Flowers's OBP was .296, AJ .326

If you look at who potentially may produce high OBP, Flowers and Dunn are 2 of the better available options.Based on what? See above.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 11:20 AM
If you look at who potentially may produce high OBP, Flowers and Dunn are 2 of the better available options.

Historically Dunn puts up a good OBP, I will give you that. But when has Flowers ever put up a good OBP? AAA? Even then he was striking out in a third of his at bats, and that was against inferior pitching.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 12:00 PM
Flowers's OBP was .296, AJ .326

Based on what? See above.

His entire minor league career. Let's dismiss minor league stats for a young, part time player. Makes a ton of sense.

white sox bill
12-04-2012, 12:04 PM
According to Hahn. Dewayne Wise decision, Rick:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-chicago-white-sox-news-offense-20121203,0,235471.story

Lip
I know you didn't mean this Lip....

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 12:14 PM
His entire minor league career. Let's dismiss minor league stats for a young, part time player. Makes a ton of sense.

I don't think it's too wise to put a lot of faith in a guy's OBP in the minors when he strikes out about twice as often as he walks and strikes out in almost a third of his plate appearances.

JB98
12-04-2012, 12:22 PM
This thread is basically about improving the team's obp. You want to accomplish that by getting rid of Dunn and Flowers while keeping AJ? :scratch:

2012:
Dunn's OBP: .333
Pierzynski's OBP: .326
Flowers OBP: .296

2011:
Dunn's OBP: .292
Pierzynski's OBP: .323
Flowers OBP: .310

I don't know how feasible it is to move Dunn, but I don't think trading him would be any big loss to the team's OBP. He hasn't been a high OBP guy since moving to the American League.

Obviously, neither Pierzynski nor Flowers would be considered a high OBP guy.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 12:27 PM
I don't think it's too wise to put a lot of faith in a guy's OBP in the minors when he strikes out about twice as often as he walks and strikes out in almost a third of his plate appearances.

His career OBP is 120 over his BA. He hasn't come close to k'ing twice as much as walking. That's hyperbole. :D:

I'll take my chances with a kid who has an excellent minor league track record relative to position over a 37 year old catcher coming off a career year, who's an awful defender to boot. People are letting their love of AJ cloud their judgement.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 12:40 PM
His career OBP is 120 over his BA. He hasn't come close to k'ing twice as much as walking. That's hyperbole. :D:

I'll take my chances with a kid who has an excellent minor league track record relative to position over a 37 year old catcher coming off a career year, who's an awful defender to boot. People are letting their love of AJ cloud their judgement.

Not only has Flowers come close to k'ing twice as much as he has walked, he's done it! Twice! In 2010 he had 121 strike outs compared to 55 walks and in 2011 he struck out 84 times to 39 walks. According to my calculator (and VERY limited understanding of math) that is a 2.2 and a 2.15 K/BB rate.

I will say that at this point in their respective careers Flowers is probably a BIT better behind the plate but it's not by much.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Not only has Flowers come close to k'ing twice as much as he has walked, he's done it! Twice! In 2010 he had 121 strike outs compared to 55 walks and in 2011 he struck out 84 times to 39 walks. According to my calculator (and VERY limited understanding of math) that is a 2.2 and a 2.15 K/BB rate.

I will say that at this point in their respective careers Flowers is probably a BIT better behind the plate but it's not by much.

I was talking career minor league stats.

The defense isn't even close. AJ is just awful behind the plate. Awful.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 01:03 PM
I was talking career minor league stats.

The defense isn't even close. AJ is just awful behind the plate. Awful.

Career minor league stats are pretty worthless because what, 1% of minor leaguers are going to make it to the majors? So you're going to face a LOT of garbage pitchers who will never come close to even sniffing the majors, especially in the low levels of the minors. Above A ball Flowers has not demonstrated, to me at least, anything that would suggest he would be a high OBP guy.

As far as defense goes, from my untrained eye it seems to me that AJ's biggest problem is with balls in the dirt on the corners. I think he struggles with those so much more now than a few years ago because his knees are giving out on him, but I see Flowers struggle with those pitches as well. Much more than AJ did back when he first came over. Flowers has a better arm than AJ, but AJ had a pretty good year throwing out base runners as well.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 01:14 PM
Career minor league stats are pretty worthless because what, 1% of minor leaguers are going to make it to the majors? So you're going to face a LOT of garbage pitchers who will never come close to even sniffing the majors, especially in the low levels of the minors. Above A ball Flowers has not demonstrated, to me at least, anything that would suggest he would be a high OBP guy.

As far as defense goes, from my untrained eye it seems to me that AJ's biggest problem is with balls in the dirt on the corners. I think he struggles with those so much more now than a few years ago because his knees are giving out on him, but I see Flowers struggle with those pitches as well. Much more than AJ did back when he first came over. Flowers has a better arm than AJ, but AJ had a pretty good year throwing out base runners as well.

Until a player gets consistent major league AB's, his minor league numbers are the best indicators. Flowers hasn't gotten enough major league ABs to make any definitive judgements. I like his potential as a hitter and defender.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
Until a player gets consistent major league AB's, his minor league numbers are the best indicators. Flowers hasn't gotten enough major league ABs to make any definitive judgements. I like his potential as a hitter and defender.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I haven't seen anything in Flowers minor league numbers or his approach in the majors that suggest he will be a high OBP guy. I think he will be a low average, low OBP, high strike out guy with some power who won't kill you defensively. The White Sox have too many low average, low OBP guys in their lineup as it is.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 01:31 PM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I haven't seen anything in Flowers minor league numbers or his approach in the majors that suggest he will be a high OBP guy. I think he will be a low average, low OBP, high strike out guy with some power who won't kill you defensively. The White Sox have too many low average, low OBP guys in their lineup as it is.

A catcher with a career milb 391 OBP is pretty substantial. I'm not sure what more you could realistically ask for.

sullythered
12-04-2012, 01:47 PM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I haven't seen anything in Flowers minor league numbers or his approach in the majors that suggest he will be a high OBP guy. I think he will be a low average, low OBP, high strike out guy with some power who won't kill you defensively. The White Sox have too many low average, low OBP guys in their lineup as it is.

You haven't seen anything in his minor league numbers that suggest he could be a high OBP guy? Have you looked at his minor league numbers?

TDog
12-04-2012, 01:50 PM
Flowers's OBP was .296, AJ .326 ....

The comparison between Dunn and Pierzynski sort of shows that on-base percentage isn't nearly as important as some make it out to be.

doublem23
12-04-2012, 01:50 PM
I like his potential as a hitter and defender.

Me, too. Well, I like his potential a lot more than paying out the nose for AJ's age 36-38 seasons.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 02:12 PM
You haven't seen anything in his minor league numbers that suggest he could be a high OBP guy? Have you looked at his minor league numbers?

If you had looked at the earlier posts you would see that I have and I also pointed out that above A ball he has has struck out twice as often as he has walked. His OBP in AAA is .358, a very nice OBP but right up there with Josh Fields' .382 OBP in AAA and Jerry Owens' .355 OBP in AAA.

My point is you can't put a lot of stock in a guys numbers in the minors because he is going to face a lot of garbage pitchers and can cover his mistakes against those guys, especially in a hitter friendly park like the one in Charlotte. Flowers' numbers indicate he is going to strike out far more often than he walks and that was against a lot of garbage pitching too. Imagine how he will do against major league pitching.

I would also argue that while Flowers does have some upside he is another low average, low OBP, high strike out guy and the White Sox lineup as currently constructed has too many guys like that already.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 02:39 PM
Since Fields and Owens didn't pan out, we should dismiss everyone's minor league numbers when it suits our argument.

FielderJones
12-04-2012, 02:44 PM
Since Fields and Owens didn't pan out, we should dismiss everyone's minor league numbers when it suits our argument.

I think the actual quote is

My point is you can't put a lot of stock in a guys numbers in the minors because he is going to face a lot of garbage pitchers and can cover his mistakes against those guys, especially in a hitter friendly park like the one in Charlotte.

So, not totally dismiss, but don't elevate to an important data point in evaluating as a major leaguer.

WhiteSox5187
12-04-2012, 02:55 PM
Since Fields and Owens didn't pan out, we should dismiss everyone's minor league numbers when it suits our argument.

You are missing my point entirely. I am saying that since there are a lot of guys who post good minor league numbers and wind up becoming ****ty major leaguers you shouldn't post too much faith in numbers posted at the minor league level. Numbers only tell a part of the story and God knows that there are certainly more numbers than OBP to look at, especially in the minor leagues.

Josh Fields had a 2.6 K/BB ratio in AA in 2005 and a 2.5 K/BB ratio in AAA in 2006, he still had a good OBP in those years (.341 and .379) but that K/BB ratio could have served as a warning sign that perhaps he would struggle in the majors where he would be facing vastly superior pitching and that his OBP was inflated by inferior pitching. Flowers has had slightly better OBPs in his years in the minors but still has about a 2 K/BB rate which suggests to me he will struggle against superior pitching.

This is not to say that Flowers is going to be as worthless as Fields or Owens was. I think that Flowers could have a nice career and put up numbers similar to JP Arencibia who is a quality major league catcher. My main objection to Flowers being a starter with the White Sox is that we already have a lot of low average, low OBP guys on this lineup in the likes of Viciedo, Beckham, Ramirez and Dunn. I think that a lineup that features five guys who will struggle to have an OBP much above .335 will struggle to get enough guys on to score runs.

TaylorStSox
12-04-2012, 03:21 PM
You are missing my point entirely. I am saying that since there are a lot of guys who post good minor league numbers and wind up becoming ****ty major leaguers you shouldn't post too much faith in numbers posted at the minor league level. Numbers only tell a part of the story and God knows that there are certainly more numbers than OBP to look at, especially in the minor leagues.

Josh Fields had a 2.6 K/BB ratio in AA in 2005 and a 2.5 K/BB ratio in AAA in 2006, he still had a good OBP in those years (.341 and .379) but that K/BB ratio could have served as a warning sign that perhaps he would struggle in the majors where he would be facing vastly superior pitching and that his OBP was inflated by inferior pitching. Flowers has had slightly better OBPs in his years in the minors but still has about a 2 K/BB rate which suggests to me he will struggle against superior pitching.

This is not to say that Flowers is going to be as worthless as Fields or Owens was. I think that Flowers could have a nice career and put up numbers similar to JP Arencibia who is a quality major league catcher. My main objection to Flowers being a starter with the White, Sox is that we already have a lot of low average, low OBP guys on this lineup in the likes of Viciedo, Beckham, Ramirez and Dunn. I think that a lineup that features five guys who will struggle to have an OBP much above .335 will struggle to get enough guys on to score runs.

The "crappy pitcher" argument holds little weight. Everyone faces the same quality pitching in AAA. Plus, he put up ungodly numbers in AA, where the pitching is better. Also, his AAA numbers are somewhat skewed by a bad 2010. IIRC, he was battling injuries that entire year. Nonetheless, using OBP as an argument in favor of AJ doesn't work.

I just don't see any scenario where AJ out produces Flowers considering salary.

Also, Flowers doesn't have a 2/1 k/BB rate in the minors.

eriqjaffe
12-04-2012, 04:47 PM
TAlso, Flowers doesn't have a 2/1 k/BB rate in the minors.He does at AAA, though.

Tragg
12-04-2012, 06:14 PM
If you had looked at the earlier posts you would see that I have and I also pointed out that above A ball he has has struck out twice as often as he has walked. His OBP in AAA is .358, a very nice OBP but right up there with Josh Fields' .382 OBP in AAA and Jerry Owens' .355 OBP in AAA.

My point is you can't put a lot of stock in a guys numbers in the minors because he is going to face a lot of garbage pitchers and can cover his mistakes against those guys, especially in a hitter friendly park like the one in Charlotte. Flowers' numbers indicate he is going to strike out far more often than he walks and that was against a lot of garbage pitching too. Imagine how he will do against major league pitching.

I think the minor league stats can show warning signs, though. If you strike out a lot and have no power against that pitching, even with a decent obp, you're likely to struggle in the majors. I guess I'm agreeing with you.

TheVulture
12-05-2012, 03:26 PM
Talk is cheap. Sox management has been telling us for years about their desire for more offensive balance. It's kind of like how Ozzie used to say year after year that this team needs to get better at fundamentals.....but then nothing ever changed.


Very true, but now we've got a guy in Ventura who actually did something about improving fundamentals.

TheVulture
12-05-2012, 03:29 PM
I just don't see any scenario where AJ out produces Flowers considering salary.



Are you kidding? I'm not as down on Flowers as a lot of people apparently are, but come on! I would be less surprised if Flowers hit .190 as a full time player than I would be if he hit .270.

TaylorStSox
12-05-2012, 04:31 PM
Are you kidding? I'm not as down on Flowers as a lot of people apparently are, but come on! I would be less surprised if Flowers hit .190 as a full time player than I would be if he hit .270.

"Produce" entails a heck of a lot more than BA, especially when you factor in defense and salary.

SI1020
12-05-2012, 09:26 PM
Since Fields and Owens didn't pan out, we should dismiss everyone's minor league numbers when it suits our argument. Complete dismiss? As a rule no, but some healthy skepticism is in order, especially where Flowers is concerned.

TheVulture
12-05-2012, 10:28 PM
"Produce" entails a heck of a lot more than BA, especially when you factor in defense and salary.

Fair enough. AJ was arguably the best hitting catcher in the AL last year, to say you can't see a scenario where AJ outproduces Flowers next year is ludicrous.

TaylorStSox
12-05-2012, 11:12 PM
Fair enough. AJ was arguably the best hitting catcher in the AL last year, to say you can't see a scenario where AJ outproduces Flowers next year is ludicrous.

He's also 37 years old and had an eyebrow raising power spike in a contract year. He had a great offensive year for a catcher, but was really bad behind the plate.

I see Flowers putting up something like .240/.340 with 20 homers next year. I don't see AJ having that type of obp and power. Although that porch in the Bronx might make it happen. When you factor in the defense and the contract, it's a no-brainer IMO. So, yeah AJ might have a similar offensive year, but won't be nearly as good defensively. Obviously, I weigh defense heavily when I look at a catcher.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2012, 12:00 AM
I see Flowers putting up something like .240/.340 with 20 homers next year. I don't see AJ having that type of obp and power. Although that porch in the Bronx might make it happen. When you factor in the defense and the contract, it's a no-brainer IMO. So, yeah AJ might have a similar offensive year, but won't be nearly as good defensively. Obviously, I weigh defense heavily when I look at a catcher.Wow, you're looking at a totally different guy than I am.

dickallen15
12-06-2012, 05:40 AM
One thing to keep in mind about Flowers is he is not 23 or 24 years old. I think he is slightly older than Gordon Beckham, so everyone who thinks Beckham can't get better, shouldn't be thinking Flowers is going to suddenly improve offensively. Defensively, if he becomes the regular, it will be interesting to see how he holds up playing more often. He could be fine, the increased workload could work against him.

The thing that really concerns me offensively besides his lack of contact, is he has been very slow with adjustments. They find your weaknesses fast at this level, and he is going to have to fix that.

russ99
12-06-2012, 07:27 AM
He's also 37 years old and had an eyebrow raising power spike in a contract year. He had a great offensive year for a catcher, but was really bad behind the plate.

I see Flowers putting up something like .240/.340 with 20 homers next year. I don't see AJ having that type of obp and power. Although that porch in the Bronx might make it happen. When you factor in the defense and the contract, it's a no-brainer IMO. So, yeah AJ might have a similar offensive year, but won't be nearly as good defensively. Obviously, I weigh defense heavily when I look at a catcher.

There's more to hitting than power. .240/20 isn't acceptable as a major league regular unless you can hide him in the 9 spot, and you can't hide 2-3 guys in the 9 spot.

Comes down to if you prefer a Karkovice or a Kendall at catcher.

I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

If A.J. isn't coming back, sounds like the Sox may go after a less expensive experienced guy to platoon, which would be a worse stopgap for a year than A.J., but I guess it would be adequate.

Frater Perdurabo
12-06-2012, 07:46 AM
I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

There's more to defense than throwing out base runners.

I want the player who handles the ball more than any other player on the field (besides the pitcher) to be a damn good fielder.

Passed balls lead to unearned runs and put undue stress on pitchers, leading to earlier exits and more bullpen innings.

I want great defense behind the plate.

TaylorStSox
12-06-2012, 09:19 AM
There's more to hitting than power. .240/20 isn't acceptable as a major league regular unless you can hide him in the 9 spot, and you can't hide 2-3 guys in the 9 spot.

Comes down to if you prefer a Karkovice or a Kendall at catcher.

I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

If A.J. isn't coming back, sounds like the Sox may go after a less expensive experienced guy to platoon, which would be a worse stopgap for a year than A.J., but I guess it would be adequate.

.240/.340/20 isn't acceptable for a catcher? What world do you live in?

Comparing Flowers to Beckham is ridiculous. Beckham has over 2,000 MLB PA's. He's played consistently for 4 years. Flowers has never had consistent AB's.

Throwing out runners is a small part of what a catcher does. I want an athletic catcher that moves well behind the plate and blocks pitches. Watch the way AJ calls pitches. He very rarely calls for out pitches or balls in the dirt because he can't get down and block them anymore. IMO, AJ's pitch calling leaves a lot to be desired. The pitcher's seem to like working with Flowers, so I don't think that's going to be a problem.

Most of our pitchers haven't been any different than other teams as far as holding runners. That's a Hawk line trying to paint AJ in a better light.

slavko
12-06-2012, 10:07 AM
.240/.340/20 isn't acceptable for a catcher? What world do you live in?

Comparing Flowers to Beckham is ridiculous. Beckham has over 2,000 MLB PA's. He's played consistently for 4 years. Flowers has never had consistent AB's.



Zing. The original post on that one had me howling.

Domeshot17
12-06-2012, 10:09 AM
One thing to keep in mind about Flowers is he is not 23 or 24 years old. I think he is slightly older than Gordon Beckham, so everyone who thinks Beckham can't get better, shouldn't be thinking Flowers is going to suddenly improve offensively. Defensively, if he becomes the regular, it will be interesting to see how he holds up playing more often. He could be fine, the increased workload could work against him.

The thing that really concerns me offensively besides his lack of contact, is he has been very slow with adjustments. They find your weaknesses fast at this level, and he is going to have to fix that.

It is very different than Gordon. Gordon has been a failed starter for about 80% of his mlb career. Tyler Flowers has been stuck behind AJ for years and has never been the starter.

I think Flowers will be fine as a starter as well. Catcher is one of the most defense first positions in baseball. I see no reason Flowers can't atleast be as good offensively as Gordon, low to mid 700 OPS, with solid D.

Nellie_Fox
12-06-2012, 11:10 AM
Most of our pitchers haven't been any different than other teams as far as holding runners. That's a Hawk line trying to paint AJ in a better light.Then it's also a Tom Kelly line, because when he was doing the analysis on the Twins' games against the Sox, he said the Sox pitchers were notorious for being slow to the plate and the Twins always plan to run on them. He gave the time they use, from the time the pitcher breaks his set position until the ball arrives at the catcher, to decide whether they should be running or not. I got out my stopwatch after he said that, and found that the Sox pitchers were almost always slower than the time he said (I don't remember what the time is now.)

SI1020
12-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Me thinks someone is greatly overvaluing the potential and ability of Tyler Flowers. If I'm wrong about Flowers then great, because AJ or not the Sox badly need up and coming talent at that position.

JB98
12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
There's more to defense than throwing out base runners.

I want the player who handles the ball more than any other player on the field (besides the pitcher) to be a damn good fielder.

Passed balls lead to unearned runs and put undue stress on pitchers, leading to earlier exits and more bullpen innings.

I want great defense behind the plate.

Fair enough, but I don't think Flowers is great behind the plate. And I don't think he can hit. He has holes in his swing like swiss cheese. Yeah, he'll run into a few and knock 'em out of the yard, but his strikeouts might approach Dunn territory if he plays every day.

TaylorStSox
12-06-2012, 12:43 PM
Me thinks someone is greatly overvaluing the potential and ability of Tyler Flowers. If I'm wrong about Flowers then great, because AJ or not the Sox badly need up and coming talent at that position.

Perhaps I'm too optimistic about Flowers. Me thinks Sox fans grossly overvalue AJ even more.

russ99
12-07-2012, 02:01 PM
Mark Gonzalez has a report in the Trib that the Sox are talking with Cincinnati about DeAza and Seattle about Viciedo.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1207-white-sox-chicago--20121207,0,3815808.story

Nice smarmy quote from Boras about Dayan's future earnings...

Interesting. If either of these goes through, we'd better get quality assets back.

Madvora
12-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Mark Gonzalez has a report in the Trib that the Sox are talking with Cincinnati about DeAza and Seattle about Viciedo.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1207-white-sox-chicago--20121207,0,3815808.story

Nice smarmy quote from Boras about Dayan's future earnings...

Interesting. If either of these goes through, we'd better get quality assets back.
De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.

russ99
12-07-2012, 02:34 PM
De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.

Right? Doesn't make much sense unless he's looking for a ridiculous number out of arb.

He did run down the second half, but so did a lot of Sox players, which IMO was at least partially due to Robin either not having or not utilizing his bench.

TaylorStSox
12-07-2012, 03:23 PM
De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.

He's not young, is somewhat injury prone and is more suited for LF. I do like him, but I wouldn't consider him a building block.

Tragg
12-07-2012, 05:16 PM
Mark Gonzalez has a report in the Trib that the Sox are talking with Cincinnati about DeAza and Seattle about Viciedo.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1207-white-sox-chicago--20121207,0,3815808.story

Nice smarmy quote from Boras about Dayan's future earnings...

Interesting. If either of these goes through, we'd better get quality assets back.

Sox are loaded with quality OF on the roster, especially CF.

LauraJ14
12-07-2012, 06:21 PM
Sox are loaded with quality OF on the roster, especially CF.
Who else on the roster can play CF? Am I missing somebody and if the answer is Wise then we are in trouble

Brian26
12-07-2012, 07:24 PM
Who else on the roster can play CF? Am I missing somebody and if the answer is Wise then we are in trouble

The plan is for the opening day starting CF to be Curtis Granderson.

Tragg
12-07-2012, 09:08 PM
Who else on the roster can play CF? Am I missing somebody and if the answer is Wise then we are in trouble

We're both missing it.
I really don't understand the De Aza objections. He was excellent.
Maybe they think they can sell at peak price, but I'll believe that when I see it.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2012, 12:14 PM
For what it's worth, heard from a good source today and they think the Sox will be making two "impact" moves in this off season.

The source (who is well connected) said they thought the Sox would be getting a left handed bat for the lineup and that DeAza is probably the person who is going to be sent out. They think it will eventually be to the Reds for some of their good, young prospects.

Didn't say anything one way or another on A.J.

Lip

dickallen15
12-10-2012, 01:00 PM
The plan is for the opening day starting CF to be Curtis Granderson.
Granderson's defense has really been slipping. He's scheduled to move to LF for the Yankees in 2013.

DaveFeelsRight
12-10-2012, 01:18 PM
Who else on the roster can play CF? Am I missing somebody and if the answer is Wise then we are in trouble
He may been referring to Jared Mitchell and Jordan Danks.

JB98
12-10-2012, 01:22 PM
He may been referring to Jared Mitchell and Jordan Danks.

I hope not. Both are even worse options than Wise. Hopefully, Mitchell will help the Sox one day. I don't think that time is now.

gosox41
12-10-2012, 02:07 PM
For what it's worth, heard from a good source today and they think the Sox will be making two "impact" moves in this off season.

The source (who is well connected) said they thought the Sox would be getting a left handed bat for the lineup and that DeAza is probably the person who is going to be sent out. They think it will eventually be to the Reds for some of their good, young prospects.

Didn't say anything one way or another on A.J.

Lip


I think Hahn is up to something and now that the bigger name FA's are starting to sign we will see it soon.

Unless the Sox get a strong return for De Aza, I wouldn't trade him. He is lefty. I thought he did a decent job in CF last year and he is our lead off hitter. If we trade him, who bats lead off?


Bob

wilburaga
12-10-2012, 03:07 PM
The plan is for the opening day starting CF to be Curtis Granderson.

I hope not. I don't want to add 195 Ks to this lineup. His numbers last year were Dunn-esque.

Chez
12-10-2012, 03:14 PM
For what it's worth, heard from a good source today and they think the Sox will be making two "impact" moves in this off season.

The source (who is well connected) said they thought the Sox would be getting a left handed bat for the lineup and that DeAza is probably the person who is going to be sent out. They think it will eventually be to the Reds for some of their good, young prospects.

Didn't say anything one way or another on A.J.

Lip

I have a hard time believeing the Reds -- or any team -- being willing to deal good prospects for De Aza.

tstrike2000
12-10-2012, 03:28 PM
Shipping De Aza and Tank, possibly? For who? I don't really like the prospect of getting rid of De Aza.

SoxSpeed22
12-10-2012, 03:32 PM
Maybe not, the Reds might be trying to win now, with their lineup and pitching staff the way they are, they might be one guy away. Left and center field are their biggest problems right now. De Aza would be a nice fit for them and would add another lefty bat. He's also strong defensively so he can play either left or center.
Edit: Paulie may retire after 2013, and the Reds have Neftali Soto being blocked by Joey Votto. He's got plenty of power and doesn't strike out that much, so he could work.

WhiteSoxNation
12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
I like the OB% as a big factor in value, however. A guy who has a low OB% because he gives him self up for a run now and then or tries to bunt his way on I'm for..

Giving up an out for a run is fine, out for 1 base not sure about......

Sox need to get on base.....and stop K'in so much.

I think our pitching is fine, but when it was an issue was walks.