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View Full Version : You see the trend, what to do with Sale, quickly, as in now.


WhiteSoxNation
11-30-2012, 04:40 PM
I say we attempt to lock him up quick.

Maybe something along the lines of
2013-900K, 24
2014-1.1M, 25
2015-5.5M, 26
2016-8.5M, 27
2017-10.5M, 28
2018-10.5M, 29
2019-10.5M, 30
2020-10.5M, 31

Assuming he stays healthy/competitive, it would be hard to decline this deal as a 23year old, IMO......Also if he doesn't get extended and hits the market around 26-27yrs old he's going to be looking at Hamels dollars........Look at the Kershaw financial options. Considering Floyd is making 9.5M it makes it a nice deal.

8yr/58M Similar to the Strasburg deal he signed out of college.

This put him past arbitration, which he would (assuming) be awarded pretty solid salary (LHP, eats IP, K's, competitive)

What would/should the Sox do with Sale?

DonnieDarko
11-30-2012, 04:59 PM
What they should do is give him one or two more years. If he can keep this up, then lock him up to a good deal.

WhiteSoxNation
11-30-2012, 05:01 PM
but remember as he gets better, the price tag goes up.

I think now is the time. maybe get the last few years as club options with a buyout.

DonnieDarko
11-30-2012, 05:27 PM
but remember as he gets better, the price tag goes up.

I think now is the time. maybe get the last few years as club options with a buyout.

That delivery still scares me. I wouldn't lock him up to any kind of longterm deal until he could prove that he could stay healthy. One year as a starter is not enough for me.

blandman
11-30-2012, 05:59 PM
I say we attempt to lock him up quick.

Maybe something along the lines of
2013-900K, 24
2014-1.1M, 25
2015-5.5M, 26
2016-8.5M, 27
2017-10.5M, 28
2018-10.5M, 29
2019-10.5M, 30
2020-10.5M, 31

Assuming he stays healthy/competitive, it would be hard to decline this deal as a 23year old, IMO......Also if he doesn't get extended and hits the market around 26-27yrs old he's going to be looking at Hamels dollars........Look at the Kershaw financial options. Considering Floyd is making 9.5M it makes it a nice deal.

8yr/58M Similar to the Strasburg deal he signed out of college.

This put him past arbitration, which he would (assuming) be awarded pretty solid salary (LHP, eats IP, K's, competitive)

What would/should the Sox do with Sale?

No way. Sale's elbow is an accident waiting to happen. Go year to year until you don't have to anymore getting as much as you can get out of him.

WLL1855
11-30-2012, 06:37 PM
No way. Sale's elbow is an accident waiting to happen. Go year to year until you don't have to anymore getting as much as you can get out of him.

When did we get a sports medicine professional on staff here? Dr. James Andrews is that you?

I'm not shocked this kind of crap keeps reappearing though. Didn't someone a while back advocate Sale getting Tommy John surgery before any problems even appear with his throwing arm?

Work out a deal with the guy through his arbitration years. At least. Sneak in an option year or two if you can with a fair buyout.

blandman
11-30-2012, 07:27 PM
When did we get a sports medicine professional on staff here? Dr. James Andrews is that you?

I'm not shocked this kind of crap keeps reappearing though. Didn't someone a while back advocate Sale getting Tommy John surgery before any problems even appear with his throwing arm?

Work out a deal with the guy through his arbitration years. At least. Sneak in an option year or two if you can with a fair buyout.

They're not my words, they're the words being repeated over and over by multiple scouts. You don't have to believe them, but those people are paid for their opinion.

DumpJerry
11-30-2012, 07:39 PM
When did we get a sports medicine professional on staff here? Dr. James Andrews is that you?

I'm not shocked this kind of crap keeps reappearing though. Didn't someone a while back advocate Sale getting Tommy John surgery before any problems even appear with his throwing arm?

Work out a deal with the guy through his arbitration years. At least. Sneak in an option year or two if you can with a fair buyout.

They're not my words, they're the words being repeated over and over by multiple scouts. You don't have to believe them, but those people are paid for their opinion.
Come on, this time last year all the way until the 2012 season ended, Peavy and Sale were the China Dolls of the pitching staff who were 100% destined for the 60-Day DL per the experts at WSI.


Oh, of the five guys who who were in the starting rotation on Opening Day 2012, the only ones who never saw the DL during the season were.......Sale and Peavy.

kevingrt
11-30-2012, 08:42 PM
I say we attempt to lock him up quick.

Maybe something along the lines of
2013-900K, 24
2014-1.1M, 25
2015-5.5M, 26
2016-8.5M, 27
2017-10.5M, 28
2018-10.5M, 29
2019-10.5M, 30
2020-10.5M, 31

Assuming he stays healthy/competitive, it would be hard to decline this deal as a 23year old, IMO......Also if he doesn't get extended and hits the market around 26-27yrs old he's going to be looking at Hamels dollars........Look at the Kershaw financial options. Considering Floyd is making 9.5M it makes it a nice deal.

8yr/58M Similar to the Strasburg deal he signed out of college.

This put him past arbitration, which he would (assuming) be awarded pretty solid salary (LHP, eats IP, K's, competitive)

What would/should the Sox do with Sale?

I completely agree with you. Let's face it you have to make risks in baseball with all money being guaranteed. This I feel is a worthy risk. Even if he has Tommy John guys have been coming back fairly fine 12-14 months after Tommy John. I totally believe this is a risk willing to take rather then waiting two years, watching Sale continue to be a top 5-10 pitcher in the league and then get some crazy money offer Reinsdorf and the Sox cannot match.

TaylorStSox
12-01-2012, 12:00 AM
IMO, the whole mechanics causing injury thing is absolute BS. Some guys have an arm that can hold up, despite mechanics, and some don't. I think it's more about a pitcher's body having the natural ability to withstand the pitching motion than anything else. It's just a crapshoot.

WhiteSox5187
12-01-2012, 12:26 AM
MLB Network super imposed Sale's delivery over Randy Johnson's and they were almost exactly the same and Randy Johnson didn't have many arm problems until later in his career. Having said that, I would like Sale to pitch another full season before giving him some sort of major contract extension.

Falstaff
12-01-2012, 01:26 AM
IMO, the whole mechanics causing injury thing is absolute BS. Some guys have an arm that can hold up, despite mechanics, and some don't. I think it's more about a pitcher's body having the natural ability to withstand the pitching motion than anything else. It's just a crapshoot.

True. Also true is over time, (starting in 2013?) Sale's velocity will decline.
Rather than the 97mph 15 KO blazer, he'll be routinely working in the 90-93 range. Now, this is pretty standard. A good comparison would be Tim Lincecum, a lanky guy with funky delivery. I bet at this point SF is grateful they didn't commit to 8 years with their Cy Young honoree. I expect a similar trajectory for Sale. UNLESS he starts to develop command of his off-speedo junk a la Freddie Garcia. Chris Sale will not be a lights out performer for an extended time, but I think he has the talent to transform into a finesser as time goes with the wind. My 2 cents.

russ99
12-01-2012, 02:48 AM
I completely agree with you. Let's face it you have to make risks in baseball with all money being guaranteed. This I feel is a worthy risk. Even if he has Tommy John guys have been coming back fairly fine 12-14 months after Tommy John. I totally believe this is a risk willing to take rather then waiting two years, watching Sale continue to be a top 5-10 pitcher in the league and then get some crazy money offer Reinsdorf and the Sox cannot match.

Actually, guys tend to come back stronger after Tommy John, which is why a lot of pitchers overwork in the minors and get it over with early.

Pitching is not a natural motion of the human arm. So no matter who you are, there will be issues, other than the few iron men who are exceptions rather than the rule. There is zero proof that Sale can have the injury-free longevity of a guy like Randy Johnson.

The Sox have been cautious with Sale, but so were the Nationals with Strasburg.

IMO, there's room here to make a deal. The Sox are risking that he could be paid well to sit out 18 months and Sale is risking that he can improve further and increase his future earning power.

Unless Boras is representing him (who always pushes for the max), I think a deal makes sense to both sides.

blandman
12-01-2012, 06:29 AM
Come on, this time last year all the way until the 2012 season ended, Peavy and Sale were the China Dolls of the pitching staff who were 100% destined for the 60-Day DL per the experts at WSI.


Oh, of the five guys who who were in the starting rotation on Opening Day 2012, the only ones who never saw the DL during the season were.......Sale and Peavy.

Sale did come out of the rotation and miss starts on more than one occasion, each time due to a loss of effectiveness. Even our pitching coach wanted to relegate him to the pen for the entire season because of injury concern.

Over By There
12-01-2012, 08:16 AM
Understanding that some of this would be buying out arbitration years, etc., wouldn't this still be an unprecedented contract to a pitcher from the White Sox? Hard to imagine the Sox signing any pitcher to an 8 year deal.

Domeshot17
12-01-2012, 01:30 PM
True. Also true is over time, (starting in 2013?) Sale's velocity will decline.
Rather than the 97mph 15 KO blazer, he'll be routinely working in the 90-93 range. Now, this is pretty standard. A good comparison would be Tim Lincecum, a lanky guy with funky delivery. I bet at this point SF is grateful they didn't commit to 8 years with their Cy Young honoree. I expect a similar trajectory for Sale. UNLESS he starts to develop command of his off-speedo junk a la Freddie Garcia. Chris Sale will not be a lights out performer for an extended time, but I think he has the talent to transform into a finesser as time goes with the wind. My 2 cents.

Wow, you are comparing pitchers who have absolutely nothing in common.

Sale does not get his Velocity from his "funky" delivery. He is 6'6. Lincecum is 5'11, which is why he gets his velo from the delivery. Sale also has GREAT offspeed stuff. Freddy Garcia has nothing to do with Chris Sale either.

Sale is a tall, long lefty. You are correct that he will he choose to work consistently in the mid to low 90s, but that is what all pitchers do who throw hard. Dial it up as needed. Sale had a couple games last year with a fatigued arm he was sitting about 88-91, which is common for young SP who have not been stretched out to 200 IP before.

Sale is a once a decade talent, the Sox need to not screw around and just lock him up.

blandman
12-01-2012, 02:28 PM
Wow, you are comparing pitchers who have absolutely nothing in common.

Sale does not get his Velocity from his "funky" delivery. He is 6'6. Lincecum is 5'11, which is why he gets his velo from the delivery. Sale also has GREAT offspeed stuff. Freddy Garcia has nothing to do with Chris Sale either.

Sale is a tall, long lefty. You are correct that he will he choose to work consistently in the mid to low 90s, but that is what all pitchers do who throw hard. Dial it up as needed. Sale had a couple games last year with a fatigued arm he was sitting about 88-91, which is common for young SP who have not been stretched out to 200 IP before.

Sale is a once a decade talent, the Sox need to not screw around and just lock him up.

Sale is more likely a left-handed Jack McDowell, there's a dozen similarities. Jack was Cy Young worthy but with a body that couldn't possibly hold up for a decade. With Sale, it's already shown several times in his very short career.

Konerko05
12-01-2012, 06:47 PM
Sale is more likely a left-handed Jack McDowell, there's a dozen similarities. Jack was Cy Young worthy but with a body that couldn't possibly hold up for a decade. With Sale, it's already shown several times in his very short career.

What?

DumpJerry
12-01-2012, 09:49 PM
As far as anyone knows, Sale does not have a history of major injuries with his delivery which I'm pretty sure he has had for many years now.

But the WSI medical staff knows better........

Falstaff
12-02-2012, 04:56 AM
Wow, you are comparing pitchers who have absolutely nothing in common.

Sale does not get his Velocity from his "funky" delivery. He is 6'6. Lincecum is 5'11, which is why he gets his velo from the delivery. Sale also has GREAT offspeed stuff. Freddy Garcia has nothing to do with Chris Sale either.

Sale is a tall, long lefty. You are correct that he will he choose to work consistently in the mid to low 90s, but that is what all pitchers do who throw hard. Dial it up as needed. Sale had a couple games last year with a fatigued arm he was sitting about 88-91, which is common for young SP who have not been stretched out to 200 IP before.

Sale is a once a decade talent, the Sox need to not screw around and just lock him up.


Yes he is a rare talent. So was Jon Rauch, who won Olympic gold medal and stood even taller. Then promptly blew out his arm. Then came back to have a respectable career out of bullpen, going on like a decade.
Management does have a tough decision coming up but likely will wait a year for sake of prudence. PS most of those under-powered games you mention were games Sale gave up a bunch of runs. Freddie Garcia won 17 games a few years back with "that" kind of stuff. Plus some filthy junk.

blandman
12-03-2012, 09:22 AM
What?

You're looking for a guy with a similar body frame and similar mechanics, you won't find a better example. And we all know what happened to Blackjack.

doublem23
12-03-2012, 09:41 AM
As far as anyone knows, Sale does not have a history of major injuries with his delivery which I'm pretty sure he has had for many years now.

He's also, as far as anyone knows, never been a heavily relied upon starting pitcher at the Major League level at any point of his life, either. Really, all pitchers have flawless injury records until they start to break down. Mark Prior had "perfect mechanics" and (IIRC) a spotless medical history at the amateur level but that didn't translate into sustained success when he made the jump to the Majors.

There has never bee never been a question of Sale's ability but he will continue to be hounded about his durability for at least a few more seasons.

You're looking for a guy with a similar body frame and similar mechanics, you won't find a better example. And we all know what happened to Blackjack.

Granted, I only became a rabid Sox fan around the 92/93 season and then my family didn't have cable until around 2000 so I don't remember McDowell all that well, but while the frame may have been similar, just a basic Google Image search shows different mechanics for them... Sale pitches with the feared Inverted W, pretty much every image I can find of McDowell doesn't fit that...

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/229/814/1783574_display_image.jpg?1314301701

That's not the Inverted W and, as far as I am aware, the current consensus is that mechanics are far more important than frame in determining the likelihood of injury.

And really, at any rate, McDowell was an OUTSTANDING pitcher through his 20's, and even was an AL-average innings eater through his mid-30's (I know his raw numbers are a bit inflated, but those were the height of the Steroid Era/Juiced Ball offensive explosion, he never posted an ERA+ under 90 until his final season when he threw a grand total of 19 innings over 4 starts). The only reason his career ended at 33 was due to a botched surgery. This is still a guy who earned 25.1 WAR for pitchers over his career (a hair outside the Top 300 P of all-time), won a Cy Young Award, pitched in 3 All-Star Games. If that's the career course Sale will be on, that's not exactly something to sneeze at.

Sale is going to turn 24 years old just before the 2013 season starts. He hits arbitration for the first time next off-season and can become a free agent after the 2016 season, when he will be 27 years old. If the Sox could find a way to buy out some arb years and maybe lock him up for an extra year or two, I'd be willing to do that. But you also got to remember that Sale took a bit under what he was asking for after the Sox drafted him based on the promise that they would fast track him to the Majors and start his arb clock as soon as possible. You got to wonder how much more charity he's willing to give.

blandman
12-03-2012, 11:13 AM
He's also, as far as anyone knows, never been a heavily relied upon starting pitcher at the Major League level at any point of his life, either. Really, all pitchers have flawless injury records until they start to break down. Mark Prior had "perfect mechanics" and (IIRC) a spotless medical history at the amateur level but that didn't translate into sustained success when he made the jump to the Majors.

There has never bee never been a question of Sale's ability but he will continue to be hounded about his durability for at least a few more seasons.



Granted, I only became a rabid Sox fan around the 92/93 season and then my family didn't have cable until around 2000 so I don't remember McDowell all that well, but while the frame may have been similar, just a basic Google Image search shows different mechanics for them... Sale pitches with the feared Inverted W, pretty much every image I can find of McDowell doesn't fit that...

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/229/814/1783574_display_image.jpg?1314301701

That's not the Inverted W and, as far as I am aware, the current consensus is that mechanics are far more important than frame in determining the likelihood of injury.

And really, at any rate, McDowell was an OUTSTANDING pitcher through his 20's, and even was an AL-average innings eater through his mid-30's (I know his raw numbers are a bit inflated, but those were the height of the Steroid Era/Juiced Ball offensive explosion, he never posted an ERA+ under 90 until his final season when he threw a grand total of 19 innings over 4 starts). The only reason his career ended at 33 was due to a botched surgery. This is still a guy who earned 25.1 WAR for pitchers over his career (a hair outside the Top 300 P of all-time), won a Cy Young Award, pitched in 3 All-Star Games. If that's the career course Sale will be on, that's not exactly something to sneeze at.

Sale is going to turn 24 years old just before the 2013 season starts. He hits arbitration for the first time next off-season and can become a free agent after the 2016 season, when he will be 27 years old. If the Sox could find a way to buy out some arb years and maybe lock him up for an extra year or two, I'd be willing to do that. But you also got to remember that Sale took a bit under what he was asking for after the Sox drafted him based on the promise that they would fast track him to the Majors and start his arb clock as soon as possible. You got to wonder how much more charity he's willing to give.

McDowell had an Inverted W. Injuries to his hip (arthritis I believe) caused him to change his motion drastically.

You're right that that career trajectory is not something to sneeze at. But I don't think it's a case for locking him up long term for big money either. I think it's a case to get as much as you can out of him in your window (which still has three more seasons where his production out-weighs the contract) and then cut him loose. Because odds are he isn't going to live up to the dollars an extension would cost. He's going to win a Cy Young in the next three years.

Nellie_Fox
12-03-2012, 11:25 AM
From my admittedly limited understanding of pitching mechanics, a more apt comparison is to:

http://lesterslegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/randy-johnson-giants.jpg

http://sportsofboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/010610_randy_Johnson.jpg

doublem23
12-03-2012, 11:41 AM
You're right that that career trajectory is not something to sneeze at. But I don't think it's a case for locking him up long term for big money either. I think it's a case to get as much as you can out of him in your window (which still has three more seasons where his production out-weighs the contract) and then cut him loose. Because odds are he isn't going to live up to the dollars an extension would cost. He's going to win a Cy Young in the next three years.

Fair point that I don't necessarily disagree with, but not all extensions are created equally. Surely Sale and his agent know the possibility for catastrophic injury exist so whose to say they wouldn't sign an extension that's relatively team-friendly? Considering everyone basically agrees the guys arm could explode at any given moment, maybe the idea of securing his financial future for life outweighs the potential megabucks he could earn in free agency if he wait another 4 seasons. That's approximately 128 starts he's got to navigate.

I would also consider it because the Sox so frequently have to combat the perception they are "cheap." Not great PR to cut a guy with this kind of talent over dollars and cents. But again, it would have to be for the right price. I'm certainly not interested in paying Sale #1 SP market rate for 6+ seasons. That would probably be a bad investment.

blandman
12-03-2012, 11:46 AM
From my admittedly limited understanding of pitching mechanics, a more apt comparison is to:

http://lesterslegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/randy-johnson-giants.jpg

http://sportsofboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/010610_randy_Johnson.jpg

By the time Randy made the majors, he was sitting at around 230 pounds. I know Randy's taller, but 50 pounds is 50 pounds. Randy really wasn't rail thin. He was when he was drafted, but worked really hard to build a ton of muscle after he was drafted.

blandman
12-03-2012, 11:49 AM
Fair point that I don't necessarily disagree with, but not all extensions are created equally. Surely Sale and his agent know the possibility for catastrophic injury exist so whose to say they wouldn't sign an extension that's relatively team-friendly? Considering everyone basically agrees the guys arm could explode at any given moment, maybe the idea of securing his financial future for life outweighs the potential megabucks he could earn in free agency if he wait another 4 seasons. That's approximately 128 starts he's got to navigate.

I would also consider it because the Sox so frequently have to combat the perception they are "cheap." Not great PR to cut a guy with this kind of talent over dollars and cents. But again, it would have to be for the right price. I'm certainly not interested in paying Sale #1 SP market rate for 6+ seasons. That would probably be a bad investment.

I think the biggest problem is that unless injury happens sooner, someone is gonna give him those 6 years. I'm sure his agent knows that. I wouldn't bank on being able to simply tack a few years on. Not after he just had a Cy Young quality year. Might be more worthwhile to take the draft pick.

doublem23
12-03-2012, 11:51 AM
I think the biggest problem is that unless injury happens sooner, someone is gonna give him those 6 years. I'm sure his agent knows that. I wouldn't bank on being able to simply tack a few years on. Not after he just had a Cy Young quality year. Might be more worthwhile to take the draft pick.

Absolutely, which is why I agree with the general theme of the OP which is if the Sox want to lock him up, now's the time to act. Buy out his arb years, maybe a year or two of FA, which would allow him to hit the market around 29-30 and still have 1 huge contract out there for him. But if they let him go 1-2 more years then yeah, the chance to hit it big at 27 is probably too tempting.

I'm not talking the Sox offer him **** and then tack an extra year of guaranteed **** on and hope he signs. But maybe make him a reasonable offer that basically sets him for life with money is something they'd consider. It's a gamble for the Sox, but for Sale and his people, it's just as big a risk to hope he lasts injury free for another 4 years, right?

cws05champ
12-03-2012, 01:11 PM
By the time Randy made the majors, he was sitting at around 230 pounds. I know Randy's taller, but 50 pounds is 50 pounds. Randy really wasn't rail thin. He was when he was drafted, but worked really hard to build a ton of muscle after he was drafted.

As far as arm injuries goes I think his weight is irrelevant. It's just the muscles leading up to the elbow and shoulder ligaments that you really have to strengthen and care for just like the joints themselves.

DonnieDarko
12-03-2012, 02:48 PM
As far as arm injuries goes I think his weight is irrelevant. It's just the muscles leading up to the elbow and shoulder ligaments that you really have to strengthen and care for just like the joints themselves.

Maybe I read what you posted wrong, but from my limited understanding of anatomy, you can't really "strengthen" ligaments.

TheVulture
12-03-2012, 02:59 PM
Maybe I read what you posted wrong, but from my limited understanding of anatomy, you can't really "strengthen" ligaments.

I think you read it wrong, he said the muscles attached to the ligaments need to be strengthened.

Personally, I think signing Sale to a long term deal would be too risky at this point. I would give him two more years and then think about it.

DonnieDarko
12-03-2012, 03:04 PM
I think you read it wrong, he said the muscles attached to the ligaments need to be strengthened.

Personally, I think signing Sale to a long term deal would be too risky at this point. I would give him two more years and then think about it.

Indeed I did read it wrong. Whoops.

And I wouldn't say 2 years, really. Hell, in my opinion, if he can do what he did last year or better in 2013...I'd say lock his skinny ass up as soon as possible. Doubly so if he goes so far as to win the Cy Young.

blandman
12-03-2012, 03:05 PM
I think you read it wrong, he said the muscles attached to the ligaments need to be strengthened.

Personally, I think signing Sale to a long term deal would be too risky at this point. I would give him two more years and then think about it.

Yeah, but it's still confusing. Someone rail thin can't significantly strengthen the muscles around ligaments like the original poster is implying unless you add a significant amount of weight (which is what RJ did). Think about it. Being tiny but as cut as possible isn't going to do you much good with that violent a motion, the muscles can only get so strong without mass.

Falstaff
12-04-2012, 06:28 PM
Yeah, but it's still confusing. Someone rail thin can't significantly strengthen the muscles around ligaments like the original poster is implying unless you add a significant amount of weight (which is what RJ did). Think about it. Being tiny but as cut as possible isn't going to do you much good with that violent a motion, the muscles can only get so strong without mass.

Hi. Muscles attach to tendons. Ask Roger Clemons what happens when you make the muscles stronger faster than the tendons (as with PEDS). Remeber 2005? He blew out leg tendon for this reason.

Ligaments attach one bone to the other at joints. They take hella strain too.

Best plan would be for Sale to use liberal Ben-Gay or Oil O'Wintergreen and get the juices pumping before each start. And work on the off-speedo junk, like forkball, knuckle-curve, sloshball to gain command of low speed low stress ways to get hitters out. When you try to throw 97mph all the time, it gets to be more like 91.

Mr. Jinx
12-04-2012, 08:17 PM
Hi. Muscles attach to tendons. Ask Roger Clemons what happens when you make the muscles stronger faster than the tendons (as with PEDS). Remeber 2005? He blew out leg tendon for this reason.

Ligaments attach one bone to the other at joints. They take hella strain too.

Best plan would be for Sale to use liberal Ben-Gay or Oil O'Wintergreen and get the juices pumping before each start. And work on the off-speedo junk, like forkball, knuckle-curve, sloshball to gain command of low speed low stress ways to get hitters out. When you try to throw 97mph all the time, it gets to be more like 91.

Sale is also only 23 and still growing. I would think trying to put on a few pounds and strengthen himself is a better course than learning junkballs at this point.

CoopaLoop
12-04-2012, 08:34 PM
Is there any precedent for this type of deal with pitchers?

Nellie_Fox
12-04-2012, 11:58 PM
And work on the off-speedo junk, like forkball, knuckle-curve, sloshball to gain command of low speed low stress ways to get hitters out. When you try to throw 97mph all the time, it gets to be more like 91.I'm under the impression that the forkball/split finger is VERY hard on the elbow.