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Randar68
07-29-2002, 02:38 PM
Any more info on the possible deal to Seattle?


On a side note....SF posters on the Troll board are some of the most defensive and irrational people around....They think they just traded for Ty Cobb.

Daver
07-29-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Any more info on the possible deal to Seattle?


On a side note....SF posters on the Troll board are some of the most defensive and irrational people around....They think they just traded for Ty Cobb.

All I have is what a buddy of mine heard on Seattle radio,Jose for two minor league pitchers,no names were heard.

DrWatson27
07-29-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



On a side note....SF posters on the Troll board are some of the most defensive and irrational people around....They think they just traded for Ty Cobb.


Worse than Flub Fans???

Procol Harum
07-29-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by DrWatson27



Worse than Flub Fans???

Cub fans are irrational, but they're more offensive, than defensive.

Dadawg_77
07-29-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by daver


All I have is what a buddy of mine heard on Seattle radio,Jose for two minor league pitchers,no names were heard.

Why does Seatlle want Jose? They have the same type of guy with Mark McLemore.

rmusacch
07-29-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by daver


All I have is what a buddy of mine heard on Seattle radio,Jose for two minor league pitchers,no names were heard.

Are they talking like it is a done deal or is it just a potential?

rmusacch
07-29-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


Why does Seatlle want Jose? They have the same type of guy with Mark McLemore.

I agree. I would kinda like to keep Jose around in a McLemore type role. I figured he would move back to short after the season anyway. Guess that means Jimenez would play short next year.

Randar68
07-29-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


I agree. I would kinda like to keep Jose around in a McLemore type role. I figured he would move back to short after the season anyway. Guess that means Jimenez would play short next year.

Jimenez is Jose sans leadership, power, or intelligent baserunning. Might actually be worse defensively at SS too. YIKES.

Paulwny
07-29-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


Why does Seatlle want Jose? They have the same type of guy with Mark McLemore.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/80421_mside29.shtml

Daver
07-29-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Jimenez is Jose sans leadership, power, or intelligent baserunning. Might actually be worse defensively at SS too. YIKES.


He'll fit right in the starting line-up with Rowand and Paul as the third savior Randar.

delben91
07-29-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by daver



He'll fit right in the starting line-up with Rowand and Paul as the third savior Randar.

Don't forget Liefer.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2002, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Jimenez is Jose sans leadership, power, or intelligent baserunning. Might actually be worse defensively at SS too. YIKES.

How true. The grass is always greener...

When the Sox have crapped out, and the season is officially over, you can count on plenty of sentiment for playing new guys no matter how little talent they truly have. It's only natural. It gives false hope for the future.

What worries me is Jerry The Tinkerer talking about how important these games in August will be for evaluating talent for next year's starters. Whoa!

Barring injuries or trades, the relevant time to evaluate your starting talent came and went sometime back in June. The games we're playing now are nothing but extended spring training--the results meaningless. Thus the personal stats are meaningless, too. This is MLB's equivalent to garbage time.

It's goofy thinking like Manuel's that brings talentless dopes like Julio Ramirez and Harold Baines north from spring training camp.

I want to know which guys pulled through when the games counted. For the Sox, the only relevant games were April-June.

hold2dibber
07-29-2002, 03:50 PM
I understand dealing Alomar, Durham and Lofton, but dealing Jose makes absolutely no sense to me, unless you get someone who fills a hole for next season (i.e., catcher, CF or starting pitcher) -- in other words, not two nameless minor league pitchers. Jose is the only guy under contract for next year that is good enough to be an every day major league shortstop. Dealing him only makes sense if the Sox are now shooting for 2005 as the "break through" year. And if that's the case, we may end up in the same class as the Expos and Marlins as major league jokes, because the fan base that still exists will be eroded even further.

basilesox
07-29-2002, 04:16 PM
Dealing Jose would be a big mistake. I believe that he is really the clubhouse leader on this team. He can also be a tremendously clutch hitter at times. He maybe a streaky hitter, but every team needs to have a couple of hitters like that. We just have to make sure that when he is not hitting someone steps into make up for the void. He does make quite a few errors, but remember that our team made the playoffs with him at SS, so it didnt have negative effects on the results and that is all that counts. He has tremendous range and a much stronger arm than Clayton. He turns DP's better. I can remember seeing many balls that Clayton couldnt get to this year.

Jerry_Manuel
07-29-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I understand dealing Alomar, Durham and Lofton, but dealing Jose makes absolutely no sense to me, unless you get someone who fills a hole for next season (i.e., catcher, CF or starting pitcher) -- in other words, not two nameless minor league pitchers. Jose is the only guy under contract for next year that is good enough to be an every day major league shortstop. Dealing him only makes sense if the Sox are now shooting for 2005 as the "break through" year.

Either Jose or Royce has to go if you want to play Crede this year. Nobody wants Royce, so Jose has to go. Not saying it's the right thing to do, but that's what they have to do.

Foulke You
07-29-2002, 06:01 PM
I'm in the keep Valentin club too. I don't understand how trading one of the AL's best clutch hitters (RISP avg in top 3) and basically the heart and soul of the team is going to make the team more viable for the future. I would like to see Crede get his chance too but not at the expense of Valentin. Joe Crede can very well be another Chris Snopek for all we know. Valentin is a winner who plays with guts and determination and he wants to win. Many people like to point out that his average has fallen this year but nobody considers that this is Jerry the tinkerer's fault because he dropped Jose from the #2 spot to the lineup where he dominated in 2000 and 2001 all the way down to the #7 spot. He still gets the clutch hits and the power numbers but his average has suffered because he has Mark Johnson and Royce Clayton "protecting" him in the lineup.

:manos
Keep me! I'm a winner!

hold2dibber
07-29-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Either Jose or Royce has to go if you want to play Crede this year. Nobody wants Royce, so Jose has to go. Not saying it's the right thing to do, but that's what they have to do.

Why can't Clayton just sit (assuming we can't get rid of him)? If he becomes too much of a distraction, just release him. Why would you dump Valentin, the only viable SS option for next year, just to keep Clayton happy for the remainder of this year?

34 Inch Stick
07-29-2002, 06:12 PM
I'm a big Jose fan. I think he is a team leader and clutch player. But then I think about where he has lead us. 2 of the 3 years he has been here the Sox have underachieved. He has hit about his average over the three years. The power numbers and RBI's are up but so are the errors. There is a lot of good and bad that you get with Jose. I think if you are a winning team he is a great addition. If you are a losing team he is an unnecessary luxury.

hold2dibber
07-29-2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
I'm a big Jose fan. I think he is a team leader and clutch player. But then I think about where he has lead us. 2 of the 3 years he has been here the Sox have underachieved. He has hit about his average over the three years. The power numbers and RBI's are up but so are the errors. There is a lot of good and bad that you get with Jose. I think if you are a winning team he is a great addition. If you are a losing team he is an unnecessary luxury.

Yeah, but what other option do they have? Unless they're going to trade him for Carlos Guillen (obviously not gonna happen), who is the SS next year if Jose is gone to Seattle?

soxtalker
07-29-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Why can't Clayton just sit (assuming we can't get rid of him)? If he becomes too much of a distraction, just release him. Why would you dump Valentin, the only viable SS option for next year, just to keep Clayton happy for the remainder of this year?

It looks to me like they'll be quite happy to deal either or both Clayton and Valentine for prospects and some saved salary. I've never been that big of a fan of his, because of his poor defense. However, I know that there are a large number of people on this board who value Jose's leadership on the team. That leadership role may be moving over to someone else -- e.g., Paul Konerko.

rmusacch
07-29-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Either Jose or Royce has to go if you want to play Crede this year. Nobody wants Royce, so Jose has to go. Not saying it's the right thing to do, but that's what they have to do.

Why not play Valentin in a utility type position or better yet, pay someone to take Clayton like we are doing for everyone else. Clayton will be gone after the season anyways, why not keep Valentin around.

hold2dibber
07-29-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


It looks to me like they'll be quite happy to deal either or both Clayton and Valentine for prospects and some saved salary. I've never been that big of a fan of his, because of his poor defense. However, I know that there are a large number of people on this board who value Jose's leadership on the team. That leadership role may be moving over to someone else -- e.g., Paul Konerko.

But I ask again- if you trade Jose, who is your SS next year? Do you advocate re-signing Clayton? That seems HIGHLY unlikely (and not so smart). Give Hummel or Jiminez the job? Again, I don't think either of those guys has given anyone reason to think they're ready or would be even as "good" as Clayton. For those who advocate trading Jose, what ideas do you have for the SS position next year?

BuehrleACE56
07-29-2002, 07:01 PM
i dont like jose for his crap defense. i love that royce is a vacuum and absolutely anything hit to him is an out. period. with jose, it's an adventure every time. the only reason to keep jose is his offensive talents and leadership. so why not DH him? trade thomas and DH jose. thomas isnt helping our clubhouse with his whining. paulie is taking over his old role anyways. trade thomas for a SS. we definately need to address the SS problem. but i dont think Jose or Jiminez is the answer.

Daver
07-29-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
i dont like jose for his crap defense. i love that royce is a vacuum and absolutely anything hit to him is an out. period. with jose, it's an adventure every time. the only reason to keep jose is his offensive talents and leadership. so why not DH him? trade thomas and DH jose. thomas isnt helping our clubhouse with his whining. paulie is taking over his old role anyways. trade thomas for a SS. we definately need to address the SS problem. but i dont think Jose or Jiminez is the answer.

OK genius,go find a team that will take his contract.

guillen4life13
07-29-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
i dont like jose for his crap defense. i love that royce is a vacuum and absolutely anything hit to him is an out. period. with jose, it's an adventure every time. the only reason to keep jose is his offensive talents and leadership. so why not DH him? trade thomas and DH jose. thomas isnt helping our clubhouse with his whining. paulie is taking over his old role anyways. trade thomas for a SS. we definately need to address the SS problem. but i dont think Jose or Jiminez is the answer.

u no something royce does that pisses me off? he tries to dove 4 balls hit on the right side of the IF that a 2nd baseman could have had 4 an out. he did that in g 2 of the kc series. and his offense sux.

and frank should stay. manos should stay unless another, better option is presented

hold2dibber
07-29-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
i dont like jose for his crap defense. i love that royce is a vacuum and absolutely anything hit to him is an out. period. with jose, it's an adventure every time. the only reason to keep jose is his offensive talents and leadership. so why not DH him? trade thomas and DH jose. thomas isnt helping our clubhouse with his whining. paulie is taking over his old role anyways. trade thomas for a SS. we definately need to address the SS problem. but i dont think Jose or Jiminez is the answer.

Frank is basically untradeable because of his contract (if he is dealt, he is guaranteed just under $10 mm a year for each of the next four seasons -- no one in this climate wants to pay $10 mm/year to a guy hitting .240 and who has had one good year in the last 4 seasons). Plus, Valentin is a good hitter for a SS; he is not a good hitter for a DH. I, for one, want a guy who is going to give you 30 HRs, 100 RBIs and an OPS in the .900 range at DH.

I think Jose is a viable option at SS next year. If they deal him, it should be for another SS (very unlikely to happen) or for a good starting pitcher (not likely again). Otherwise, I think it would be very foolish to move him now.

Jerry_Manuel
07-29-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Why can't Clayton just sit (assuming we can't get rid of him)? If he becomes too much of a distraction, just release him. Why would you dump Valentin, the only viable SS option for next year, just to keep Clayton happy for the remainder of this year?

I'm not Williams I don't know. If I had to guess they don't want to pay him to sit down.

Jerry_Manuel
07-29-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Why not play Valentin in a utility type position or better yet, pay someone to take Clayton like we are doing for everyone else. Clayton will be gone after the season anyways, why not keep Valentin around.

Nobody wants Clayton. He's a cancer in the clubhouse, no winning team needs that.

I'm not saying they should trade Jose, but that's what they think they have to do.

hold2dibber
07-29-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Nobody wants Clayton. He's a cancer in the clubhouse, no winning team needs that.

I'm not saying they should trade Jose, but that's what they think they have to do.

I can't believe that's true; it is entirely illogical to believe you have to trade a guy who is under contract for next year in order to keep playing a guy who isn't under contract next year when there is no one left to play the position that both of them play after the end of the year.

If they trade Valentin it won't be because they think they "have to" play Clayton or because they can't trade Clayton; it will be because they want to slash payroll for next year. Period. Which is a good idea ONLY if they have their sights on someone outside of the organization to play SS next year, because neither Hummel nor Jiminez appears to be anywhere close to ready.

soxtalker
07-29-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


But I ask again- if you trade Jose, who is your SS next year? Do you advocate re-signing Clayton? That seems HIGHLY unlikely (and not so smart). Give Hummel or Jiminez the job? Again, I don't think either of those guys has given anyone reason to think they're ready or would be even as "good" as Clayton. For those who advocate trading Jose, what ideas do you have for the SS position next year?

I'm guessing that KW is in a position where he's trying to trade as many of the veteran players as possible for salary and minor leaguers. He'll move both Clayton and Valentine, if possible, because it gives him greater flexibility later. It might be good to have a guaranteed replacement SS, but that may just be an item that he'll worry about later.

You raise a good question, and I don't mean to sound like I'm dismissing it. In fact, next winter we may very well be lamenting the lack of a true SS. However, if KW has done a good enough job of acquiring minor league talent (????) and dumping salary, he may be able to acquire a SS through trade/FA at that time. If he does, I'm guessing it will be on the inexperienced or low-cost side.

Jerry_Manuel
07-29-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I can't believe that's true; it is entirely illogical to believe you have to trade a guy who is under contract for next year in order to keep playing a guy who isn't under contract next year when there is no one left to play the position that both of them play after the end of the year.

If they trade Valentin it won't be because they think they "have to" play Clayton or because they can't trade Clayton; it will be because they want to slash payroll for next year. Period. Which is a good idea ONLY if they have their sights on someone outside of the organization to play SS next year, because neither Hummel nor Jiminez appears to be anywhere close to ready.

Who said the White Sox use logic?

Jiminez is going to play. Whether you think he's ready or not doesn't matter. It's that simple.

hold2dibber
07-29-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Who said the White Sox use logic?

Jiminez is going to play. Whether you think he's ready or not doesn't matter. It's that simple.

What makes you think so?

Jerry_Manuel
07-29-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What makes you think so?

Because the team is going young again. Why would the Sox go out and spend money on a SS when they can use Jiminez? I'm not saying Jiminez should be the starter next season, but he's cheap, so he'll be the guy.

Daver
07-29-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Because the team is going young again. Why would the Sox go out and spend money on a SS when they can use Jiminez? I'm not saying Jiminez should be the starter next season, but he's cheap, so he'll be the guy.

Shades of Mike Caruso all over again.......

Shudder!!!

spaz
07-29-2002, 08:08 PM
well If we could get an good young arm for Valentin, then I say go for it , yes val is a clutch hitter but Imho he had a carrer year in 2000.

And should never be expected to repeat that performence again, he is a carrer 250 hitter with bad defense. It's important for are defense to remain soild especally with the high number of young pitchers in are rotation. I know he's a clubhouse leader and all but I think paulie walnuts is about to take over that job anyways.

Also somebody in the middle infield is going to be moved by wed, since they called up crede. And well Valentin is the only one with trade vaule.

Also this would dump some more money for uncle jerry to give to paulie

cornball
07-29-2002, 08:34 PM
I am for moving Valentin, i dont think there will be a much of a market for him...I know he has intangables, but in my eyes he is a good utility player....not sure if there is a market for him because of 5 million/yr. reasons

As far as short for next year...i dont believe it will be anyone in the current Sox system.

Soxheads
07-29-2002, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I am for moving Valentin, i dont think there will be a much of a market for him...I know he has intangables, but in my eyes he is a good utility player....not sure if there is a market for him because of 5 million/yr. reasons

As far as short for next year...i dont believe it will be anyone in the current Sox system.

Who do you think it will be? D'Angelo isn't exactly tearing it up in AAA.

Randar68
07-29-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I am for moving Valentin, i dont think there will be a much of a market for him...I know he has intangables, but in my eyes he is a good utility player....not sure if there is a market for him because of 5 million/yr. reasons

As far as short for next year...i dont believe it will be anyone in the current Sox system.

I would not deal Valentine at the deadline, but rather in the offseason after a new CBA has been negotiated and the financial landscape is not an unknown. BTW, teams have NOT been willing to take on long-term money at this deadline if you haven't noticed. It's been almost exclusively rent-a-players.

Jerry_Manuel
07-29-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Soxheads
Who do you think it will be? D'Angelo isn't exactly tearing it up in AAA.

He'll get his shot up here.

It sure as hell won't be a free agent. Well, it won't be a good free agent. I still remember when they brought in Benji Gill. That was funny.

Daver
07-29-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


I would not deal Valentine at the deadline, but rather in the offseason after a new CBA has been negotiated and the financial landscape is not an unknown. BTW, teams have NOT been willing to take on long-term money at this deadline if you haven't noticed. It's been almost exclusively rent-a-players.

I agree Randar,keep Joe Valentine,but I think he was talking about Jose Valentin........:redneck

cornball
07-29-2002, 09:02 PM
Jose Valentin.........

Mathew
07-29-2002, 09:06 PM
Off topic question but I was wondering how those in the minor league know think the Karsay trade shapped up, did the Toons make a good move or not?

Chisox_cali
07-29-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by daver


I agree Randar,keep Joe Valentine,but I think he was talking about Jose Valentin........:redneck

Does anybody else find it funny that we have the hispanic and American versions of the same name in the Sox organization? I do :D:

Randar68
07-29-2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by daver


I agree Randar,keep Joe Valentine,but I think he was talking about Jose Valentin........:redneck


*****! Nice catch, I did mean Jose. Why you gotta bust my balls! Well, I autta!!!

Twang....THUMP!


OUCH, you BAST...


Twang....Thump!



mommy....

Daver
07-29-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



*****! Nice catch, I did mean Jose. Why you gotta bust my balls! Well, I autta!!!

Twang....THUMP!


OUCH, you BAST...


Twang....Thump!



mommy....

LOL!!

Naw I would take it easy on you,I would use a .410 shotgun,an arrow would really hurt.

hold2dibber
07-30-2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


I would not deal Valentine at the deadline, but rather in the offseason after a new CBA has been negotiated and the financial landscape is not an unknown. BTW, teams have NOT been willing to take on long-term money at this deadline if you haven't noticed. It's been almost exclusively rent-a-players.

Now that makes sense. Dumping Valentin now, without a decent replacement shortstop in the organization, up against the trading deadline doesn't make any sense to me. If they want to explore options in the off season when they have a better idea of which other shortstops might be available as replacements, that's fine.

I still don't believe that they intend to give the job to Jiminez next year.

CLR01
07-30-2002, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I'm in the keep Valentin club too. I don't understand how trading one of the AL's best clutch hitters (RISP avg in top 3) and basically the heart and soul of the team is going to make the team more viable for the future. I would like to see Crede get his chance too but not at the expense of Valentin. Joe Crede can very well be another Chris Snopek for all we know. Valentin is a winner who plays with guts and determination and he wants to win. Many people like to point out that his average has fallen this year but nobody considers that this is Jerry the tinkerer's fault because he dropped Jose from the #2 spot to the lineup where he dominated in 2000 and 2001 all the way down to the #7 spot. He still gets the clutch hits and the power numbers but his average has suffered because he has Mark Johnson and Royce Clayton "protecting" him in the lineup.

:manos
Keep me! I'm a winner!


Jose did not dominate in the number 2 spot last year.

Nellie_Fox
07-30-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
u no something royce does that pisses me off? he tries to dove 4 balls hit on the right side of the IF that a 2nd baseman could have had 4 an out. he did that in g 2 of the kc series. and his offense sux. What? Can you write in English? And does your keyboard have caps? I truly have no idea what you just said.

hsc1
07-30-2002, 03:15 AM
lol nellie.. lets see my decoder ring is on the fritz but ill try to figure it out for you....

something about ....
you know what royce does that really pisses me off.......he tries to dive for balls hit on the right side of the infield, that a second baseman could have had for an out.....he did that in game 2 of the kc series.... and something about his offense sucking....
i believe that just about covers what i can understand out of it.....lol

Soxheads
07-30-2002, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
What? Can you write in English? And does your keyboard have caps? I truly have no idea what you just said.

Us teenagers is confusin. :smile:

delben91
07-30-2002, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I would like to see Crede get his chance too but not at the expense of Valentin. Joe Crede can very well be another Chris Snopek for all we know.

Now hold on a second. I don't know for sure that Crede will be as great as his AAA numbers may dictate, but I think he'll definitely be better than Snopek.

Yeesh.