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shingo10
11-20-2012, 01:14 PM
Of one of the greatest trades in White Sox history (just in my opinion)

Sent Rowand to Phillie and got future Hall Of Famer Jim Thome. I hated to lose Rowand but this deal was too good to pass up. I don't know if I've ever been as excited to be a fan as I was during that offseason. Coming off the WS Title our 3-4-5 was set up to be Thome, Dye, Konerko...ahh what might have been.

Nevertheless that 2006 team was super fun to watch on offense. Almost hard to believe a White Sox team could score with such ease.

FielderJones
11-20-2012, 01:19 PM
That was a two-sided trade. The left-handed power was awesome. The hole in center field took six years to fill in.

shingo10
11-20-2012, 01:21 PM
That was a two-sided trade. The left-handed power was awesome. The hole in center field took six years to fill in.


Very true. Although at the time it seemed like we had a pretty sure thing in BA...he held up defensively but obviously didn't produce with the bat.

Madvora
11-20-2012, 01:44 PM
This is hardly something to celebrate an anniversary of. What good did this do the team?

FielderJones
11-20-2012, 01:44 PM
This is hardly something to celebrate an anniversary of. What good did this do the team?

Game 163?

shingo10
11-20-2012, 02:15 PM
This is hardly something to celebrate an anniversary of. What good did this do the team?


Just saying that at the time when the trade was made I don't think I've ever been as optimistic. We had just won a world championship and a month later we were actually better. Plus the fact we got Thome for Rowand is still kind of mind-boggling to me.

samurai_sox
11-20-2012, 02:23 PM
Next time, we'll celebrate the Ken Griffey Jr. trade. :scratch:

Lip Man 1
11-20-2012, 02:52 PM
With no disrespect to Jim, a very good player with the Sox and a class act, this trade changed the dynamic of the team.

They became a station to station home run or nothing club....that didn't turn out very well.

In 2005 the Sox could beat you with a blast, a bloop or a bunt. In 2006 and on that was no longer the case.

Lip

Boondock Saint
11-20-2012, 02:54 PM
This is hardly something to celebrate an anniversary of. What good did this do the team?

How about bringing in a class act who is almost universally loved and played his ass off for us? I don't get the point of the unnecessary negativity.

Dibbs
11-20-2012, 03:53 PM
I disagree. Frank Thomas had a monster 2006. Frank and Roward is much better than Thome and Brian Anderson. So the net of that trade may have cost us another title. We'll never know.

russ99
11-20-2012, 04:15 PM
More like the one of the worst trades in Sox history.

Not to diminish Thome's accomplishments with the Sox, but there were plenty of other power bats available that offseason, ones that were less than 35 years old, could field a position and weren't one-dimensional hitters, but then again the Phillies weren't paying us $22M for three years (half the contract) for those guys.

To me the real question is would the Sox have paid Rowand when he hit free agency after 2007? And would they have come close to the $9.6M the Giants paid him?

Also, Brian Anderson was a league minimum player. This move was more about money more than baseball. Yes, the Sox had their highest payroll in 2006, but this cut a pretty large corner.

I also agree that our pitching collapsing after working a postseason the year before is the primary reason we missed the playoffs in 2006, but this couldn't have helped.

Domeshot17
11-20-2012, 04:28 PM
The only part of that trade that was poor was losing Gio. This is all hindsight. Thome was a monster and was great. Rowand was, well, not very good, very Rowandish.

Thome did not cause the White Sox to become station-to-station. The middle of the order does not do that. The 6-7-8-9 hitters do that. Guys like Crede, AJ etc.

That said, the reason the White Sox missed the playoffs in 2006 was pitching, still is pitching, and will always be pitching. Buehrle and Contreras ran out of gas. If they don't suck down the stretch, we are back in the playoffs.

The biggest thing people always forget about this trade, had we kept Rowand and Thomas, Konerko signs in LA. He said that, he said he was ready to leave UNTIL the Sox got Thome.

Foulke You
11-20-2012, 04:31 PM
More like the one of the worst trades in Sox history.

Not to diminish Thome's accomplishments with the Sox, but there were plenty of other power bats available that offseason, ones that were less than 35 years old, could field a position and weren't one-dimensional hitters, but then again the Phillies weren't paying us $22M for three years (half the contract) for those guys.

There really wasn't much on the FA market that offseason which is why the Sox went the trade route. The only free agent left handed power bat capable of hitting over 20HRs that year was Jeromy Burnitz and that is a pretty steep drop off from Thome. Here is the complete list of FAs at the conclusion of 2005:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2206376


To me the real question is would the Sox have paid Rowand when he hit free agency after 2007? And would they have come close to the $9.6M the Giants paid him?

Rowand got 5 years and $60 million from the Giants. No way would the Sox have come close to paying him that and rightfully so. (The Sox did kick the tires on Rowand when he became a free agent after his season in Philly and took a pass when they heard the asking price) The Giants took a bath on the back end of that Rowand contract as he started to decline in a hurry and became a really expensive 4th outfielder for them.

TDog
11-20-2012, 05:25 PM
...
Rowand got 5 years and $60 million from the Giants. No way would the Sox have come close to paying him that and rightfully so. (The Sox did kick the tires on Rowand when he became a free agent after his season in Philly and took a pass when they heard the asking price) The Giants took a bath on the back end of that Rowand contract as he started to decline in a hurry and became a really expensive 4th outfielder for them.

The Giants overpaid Rowand, no question, but the decline wasn't all that quick. Rowand was in his third year with the Giants in 2010 and was leading off. He had been an everyday player in his first two seasons, although he didn't have the All-Star season he had in his free agent year in Philadelphia. He actually got off to a great start in 2010, but in a late April game against the Dodgers, he was hit in the face by a Padilla pitch in a 10-8 loss, sidelining him for two weeks. When he came back, he was having trouble making consistent contact, striking out enough that Andres Torres ended up taking his place as the everyday centerfielder and leadoff man, relegating Rowand to the fourth outfielder role, although he did start the clinching game of the World Series against the overmatched Rangers and for the second time in five years was in center in Texas for the last out of the major league baseball season.

Rowand was mostly a fourth outfielder in 2011, although Torres faltered, and was unhappy with his lack of playing time. In an interview with a Chicago newspaper, he said he had been very happy with the White Sox. The interview wasn't taken well in San Francisco, and it seemed to be the final nail in his coffin.

In defense of the Giants releasing him and eating his contract, Rowand never played with another professeional team after the Giants.

Thome provided more offense than Rowand would have for the Sox in 2006. The story is that Konerko re-signed after 2005 because the Sox signed Thome. The problem for the Sox in 2006, though, was the pitching, particularly late in the season.

The real history changer is the Giants offering Rowand so much more than he was worth when it appeared he was going to sign with the Sox after his All-Star season in Philadelphia. Unable to sign Torii Hunter and then Rowand, the Sox traded for Nick Swisher.

Noneck
11-20-2012, 05:31 PM
It was the right thing to do at the time but as it all played out, I dont see any reason to celebrate the move.

Foulke You
11-20-2012, 05:39 PM
The Giants overpaid Rowand, no question, but the decline wasn't all that quick. Rowand was in his third year with the Giants in 2010 and was leading off. He had been an everyday player in his first two seasons, although he didn't have the All-Star season he had in his free agent year in Philadelphia. He actually got off to a great start in 2010, but in a late April game against the Dodgers, he was hit in the face by a Padilla pitch in a 10-8 loss, sidelining him for two weeks. When he came back, he was having trouble making consistent contact, striking out enough that Andres Torres ended up taking his place as the everyday centerfielder and leadoff man, relegating Rowand to the fourth outfielder role, although he did start the clinching game of the World Series against the overmatched Rangers and for the second time in five years was in center in Texas for the last out of the major league baseball season.

Rowand was mostly a fourth outfielder in 2011, although Torres faltered, and was unhappy with his lack of playing time. In an interview with a Chicago newspaper, he said he had been very happy with the White Sox. The interview wasn't taken well in San Francisco, and it seemed to be the final nail in his coffin.

In defense of the Giants releasing him and eating his contract, Rowand never played with another professeional team after the Giants.

Thome provided more offense than Rowand would have for the Sox in 2006. The story is that Konerko re-signed after 2005 because the Sox signed Thome. The problem for the Sox in 2006, though, was the pitching, particularly late in the season.

The real history changer is the Giants offering Rowand so much more than he was worth when it appeared he was going to sign with the Sox after his All-Star season in Philadelphia. Unable to sign Torii Hunter and then Rowand, the Sox traded for Nick Swisher.
Absolutely true. The bullpen was a lot more vulnerable than 2005 and Mark Buehrle had a dreadful second half of the season going 3W-7L with a 6.44 E.R.A.

Also, you make a good point on the Thome trade influencing the Konerko signing. There is a very good chance Paulie ends up in an Angels uniform if the Thome trade didn't occur.

HomeFish
11-20-2012, 06:14 PM
It was a good move, but the greatest trade in White Sox history is arguably Carlos Lee to the Brewers.

LITTLE NELL
11-20-2012, 07:22 PM
Greatest trades in Sox history:
Sox get Nellie Fox from Philadelphia A's for Joe Tipton.
Sox get Billy Pierce from Tigers for Aaron Robinson.
Sox get Paulie from Reds for Mike Cameron.
Sox get Ozzie from Padres for LaMarr Hoyt.
Sox get Shoeless Joe from the Indians for a couple of no names and 31,000 dollars.
Sox get Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm, Ron Hansen and Dave Nicholson for Luis Aparicio and Al Smith.
The Dick Allen trade gets honorable mention because he only spent 3 years with us.
Not a trade but signing Carlton Fisk in 1981 as a free agent was huge.

Thome trade is not even close.

KenBerryGrab
11-20-2012, 07:27 PM
Thome was absolutely on fire at the start. He helped carry the club to one of the best first halves in Sox history.

Brian26
11-20-2012, 07:28 PM
It was a good move, but the greatest trade in White Sox history is arguably Carlos Lee to the Brewers.

That trade was very fair for both teams involved. I wouldn't classify it as a steal for the Sox by any means. It freed-up money and got us a leadoff man who would be productive for two years.

Brian26
11-20-2012, 07:32 PM
I disagree. Frank Thomas had a monster 2006. Frank and Roward is much better than Thome and Brian Anderson. So the net of that trade may have cost us another title. We'll never know.

Agree, we'll never know. A couple of points to consider-

Frank was a risk at that point. Nobody knew if he would ever play baseball productively again.

Brian Anderson hit two homers off Felix Hernandez in Seattle and looked like the Sox star prospect everyone was hoping he would be.

Thome carried the Sox for many stretches. In hindsight, I'd still do the trade. The only negative is that the Sox traded Gio again after they got him back in the Freddy deal.

Tragg
11-20-2012, 07:32 PM
Of one of the greatest trades in White Sox history (just in my opinion)

Sent Rowand to Phillie and got future Hall Of Famer Jim Thome. I hated to lose Rowand but this deal was too good to pass up. I don't know if I've ever been as excited to be a fan as I was during that offseason. Coming off the WS Title our 3-4-5 was set up to be Thome, Dye, Konerko...ahh what might have been.

Nevertheless that 2006 team was super fun to watch on offense. Almost hard to believe a White Sox team could score with such ease.

That wasn't a great trade. We gave up Gio as well. Rowand signed a huge contract out of that year in Philly.
The great trade was getting Gio and Floyd for Garcia.

shingo10
11-20-2012, 07:44 PM
I just think the discrepancy in talent (with absolutely no offense to Aaron...he was a solid, solid player with us) is what made it so great.

Essentially we traded a decent center fielder for one of the best hitters in the game which once again gave us a killer 3-4-5 combination. While 2006 will always be a major disappointment because of the fade at the end, the fact that we were in a legitimate chance to repeat as world champions was amazing.

SI1020
11-20-2012, 07:51 PM
The biggest thing people always forget about this trade, had we kept Rowand and Thomas, Konerko signs in LA. He said that, he said he was ready to leave UNTIL the Sox got Thome. I didn't forget. The Angels really wanted Konerko and he was tempted for several reasons not the least of which was it put him closer to home.


It was the right thing to do at the time but as it all played out, I dont see any reason to celebrate the move. That about says it all for me too.

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2012, 12:33 AM
With no disrespect to Jim, a very good player with the Sox and a class act, this trade changed the dynamic of the team.

They became a station to station home run or nothing club....that didn't turn out very well.

In 2005 the Sox could beat you with a blast, a bloop or a bunt. In 2006 and on that was no longer the case.

Lip


Right, because Frank Thomas and Carl Everett where awesome at going 1st to 3rd on a single.


Shame on Thome for coming in here and replacing those speed demons at DH.

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2012, 12:35 AM
That was a two-sided trade. The left-handed power was awesome. The hole in center field took six years to fill in.

Rowand would have also become part of that "hole in center field" by 2007 or 2008..

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2012, 12:42 AM
It was a good move, but the greatest trade in White Sox history is arguably Carlos Lee to the Brewers.

Not even close.

Freddy Garcia (from Mariners) and Jose Contreras (from Yankees) trades are the biggest trades in constructing that 2005 team.

Chez
11-21-2012, 08:05 AM
Aaron Rowand was the highest paid player on the 2012 World Champion SF Giants despite never playing a game for them.

TaylorStSox
11-21-2012, 08:28 AM
Right, because Frank Thomas and Carl Everett where awesome at going 1st to 3rd on a single.


Shame on Thome for coming in here and replacing those speed demons at DH.
Good post. That was a head scratcher from Lip.

Thome25
11-21-2012, 12:40 PM
I was a big fan of the trade. Hence my username. :D:

Lip Man 1
11-21-2012, 12:44 PM
Love / Taylor:

You guys are numbers people...look it up.

Sox were in the top four in the league in 2005 in:

Home Runs
Stolen Bases
Sacrifice Bunts
Sacrifice Flys
Infield Hits.

That my friends is called balance.

They didn't have it in 2006 nor since then.

Nothing to scratch your head about at all....unless of course you've got dandruff!

Nell:

Your list of greatest trades is right on the money. Thome deal doesn't even come close.

Lip

TheVulture
11-21-2012, 01:48 PM
That my friends is called balance.

They didn't have it in 2006 nor since then.

Lip

I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.

Foulke You
11-21-2012, 02:00 PM
Greatest trades in Sox history:
Sox get Nellie Fox from Philadelphia A's for Joe Tipton.
Sox get Billy Pierce from Tigers for Aaron Robinson.
Sox get Paulie from Reds for Mike Cameron.
Sox get Ozzie from Padres for LaMarr Hoyt.
Sox get Shoeless Joe from the Indians for a couple of no names and 31,000 dollars.
Sox get Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm, Ron Hansen and Dave Nicholson for Luis Aparicio and Al Smith.
The Dick Allen trade gets honorable mention because he only spent 3 years with us.
Not a trade but signing Carlton Fisk in 1981 as a free agent was huge.

Thome trade is not even close.
I would add the following trade:

Sox get Jose Valentin and Cal Eldred from the Brewers for Jaime Navarro and John Snyder.

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2012, 02:14 PM
Love / Taylor:

You guys are numbers people...look it up.

Sox were in the top four in the league in 2005 in:

Home Runs
Stolen Bases
Sacrifice Bunts
Sacrifice Flys
Infield Hits.

That my friends is called balance.

They didn't have it in 2006 nor since then.

Nothing to scratch your head about at all....unless of course you've got dandruff!

Nell:

Your list of greatest trades is right on the money. Thome deal doesn't even come close.

Lip


Lip, you seriously want to argue this?

Thome alone, how did he affect this balance you speak of?

How does plugging in Thome and removing Everett/ Thomas affect anything from the 5 items listed?


The only thing all 3 of them could do from your "balance" list is hit HRs. And Thome could do it better than any of them.

So what's your point?

russ99
11-21-2012, 03:49 PM
I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.

Yes, that's understandable, but what about '07?

Rowand wasn't a FA until the end of that season, and having him in CF could have spared us Erstad, Mackowiak and Jerry Owens, much less could have given B.A. a reason to work instead of hang with the honeys and being gifted a roster spot.

And the cash spent on Thome again could have been used to improve the roster.

Lip Man 1
11-21-2012, 04:42 PM
Love:

No I seriously don't want to argue this. I provided the numbers, you're a stat guy, it should be obvious to you the number of games the Sox won in 05 with balance, singles, bunt hits, home runs, stolen bases.....it should also be obvious the way they won games (or more to the point didn't win games after July 2006) in 2006.

And yes I agree pitching was part of the issue but that's not what we were talking about was it.

Lip

Corlose 15
11-21-2012, 07:09 PM
Yes, that's understandable, but what about '07?

Rowand wasn't a FA until the end of that season, and having him in CF could have spared us Erstad, Mackowiak and Jerry Owens, much less could have given B.A. a reason to work instead of hang with the honeys and being gifted a roster spot.

And the cash spent on Thome again could have been used to improve the roster.

I've never understood the Rob Mackowiak hate.

LITTLE NELL
11-21-2012, 07:31 PM
I've never understood the Rob Mackowiak hate.

I for one did not hate him, I hated Ozzie for trotting him out to CF everyday.

Frater Perdurabo
11-21-2012, 07:47 PM
I for one did not hate him, I hated Ozzie for trotting him out to CF everyday.

Bingo. Mackowiak was a great signing for the bench and pinch hitting. Ozzie misused him - and hurt the team's defense and thus the pitching - by putting him in a CF platoon.

LoveYourSuit
11-21-2012, 10:53 PM
Love:

No I seriously don't want to argue this. I provided the numbers, you're a stat guy, it should be obvious to you the number of games the Sox won in 05 with balance, singles, bunt hits, home runs, stolen bases.....it should also be obvious the way they won games (or more to the point didn't win games after July 2006) in 2006.

And yes I agree pitching was part of the issue but that's not what we were talking about was it.

Lip

So you still can't tell me how Thome vs Thomas/Everett diminished the team balance?

Lip Man 1
11-21-2012, 11:42 PM
Love:

Rowand wasn't on the club that's how the 'balance' was destroyed. He was also very popular in the clubhouse and a real gamer....I know that doesn't count for **** because you can't measure it.

The point isn't Thome vs. Thomas / Everett (although Carl was a terrific team leader and clubhouse presence. Not having him around also dramatically changed the culture...again I know it doesn't mean ****, you can't measure it).

It changed team balance because Jim was another home run or nothing middle of the order base clogger. NOT SAYING he didn't have a good year, he did, he had a damn fine season but adding him I think was one to many of THE SAME TYPE OF HITTER in the lineup and having him right in front of Paulie really hurt the Sox options to do different things under Ozzie.

They scored a lot of runs (until the second half) but they also went into a lot of slumps of the nature of scoring a bunch of runs one night, than doing little the next.

The point was Thome vs. Rowand. I don't know if I can address your comment any more than I have...and again I'm not saying a thing against Jim as a person or as a player but he was just like Dye, like Konerko, like Buehrle...great players, but quiet...it wasn't their way to call out a teammate, get in someone's face, make an issue on the field and if it meant getting into something with someone on the other team than so be it.

The 2006 Sox were limited in what they could do to score runs and they were very limited in vocal leadership.

Lip

HomeFish
11-22-2012, 10:06 AM
That trade was very fair for both teams involved. I wouldn't classify it as a steal for the Sox by any means. It freed-up money and got us a leadoff man who would be productive for two years.

The Carlos Lee trade was great precisely because it freed up money that became Iguchi, Pierzynski, and El Duque. Look at it as those three plus Podsednik in exchange for Carlos Lee, and it is indeed a steal.

If you look at just the immediate consequences of a trade, then the Garcia trade was horrible. It was the extension of Garcia later that season that made it worthwhile.

pudge
11-24-2012, 02:53 AM
I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.

Brian Anderson killed that team. Killed it. I just don't get why you trade for Thome when you won a W.S. with Rowand in CF. I agree with the poster who said Frank and Rowand probably get you back into the playoffs. I just didn't love the trade when it happened. Now, Thome was great to have in '08, but I would have rather been a playoff team in '06.

Bob Roarman
11-24-2012, 05:19 AM
Brian Anderson killed that team. Killed it. I just don't get why you trade for Thome when you won a W.S. with Rowand in CF. I agree with the poster who said Frank and Rowand probably get you back into the playoffs. I just didn't love the trade when it happened. Now, Thome was great to have in '08, but I would have rather been a playoff team in '06.

Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas. Don't know why people seem to forget about them, they had career seasons of career seasons for middle relief which, luckily for the Sox, happened to fall in the same season and then they both promptly fell off a cliff and out of baseball just a few years later.

Noneck
11-24-2012, 07:30 AM
Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas.

Throw Hermanson into that mix also.

TommyJohn
11-24-2012, 01:26 PM
Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas. Don't know why people seem to forget about them, they had career seasons of career seasons for middle relief which, luckily for the Sox, happened to fall in the same season and then they both promptly fell off a cliff and out of baseball just a few years later.

Thank you! Pitching, or lack thereof, is the main reason the Sox did not get back to the playoffs in 2006. Buehrle fell off in the second half, and as you mentioned, relievers like Politte and Cotts had career years in 2005. There is no guarantee that standing pat would have led to a repeat. After all, Thomas suffered season-ending injuries in 2004 and 2005. There was no guarantee (there's that word again, but it's true) that he would've been healthy in 2006. We only know this in hindsight. But some people love to live in the Land of If Only.

SI1020
11-24-2012, 01:40 PM
Thank you! Pitching, or lack thereof, is the main reason the Sox did not get back to the playoffs in 2006. Buehrle fell off in the second half, and as you mentioned, relievers like Politte and Cotts had career years in 2005. There is no guarantee that standing pat would have led to a repeat. After all, Thomas suffered season-ending injuries in 2004 and 2005. There was no guarantee (there's that word again, but it's true) that he would've been healthy in 2006. We only know this in hindsight. But some people love to live in the Land of If Only. It's the biggest reason but not the only one. 2005 has been the only season in the 21st Century that the Sox didn't have that frustrating feast or famine, often one dimensional offense. As for the trade, yes you have to make it, if for no other reason than to keep Konerko. The 2005 team had a 101 ways to beat you, including the lock down bullpen mentioned by Bob Roarman. People are going to play the what if game because a repeat of 05 would have been so satisfying.

nsolo
11-27-2012, 09:28 AM
That was a two-sided trade. The left-handed power was awesome. The hole in center field took six years to fill in.

What he said. Everyone agrees Thome is a great guy and possible future HOFer, but BA always had that deer in the headlights look at every bat, and the rotation of players after him cost us dearly. All Thome brought was his bat with no defense to patch the loss of Rowland.

My opinion on hearing about that trade was "we just ran the table and won the W.S., team chemistry was working, why break things up?". Seven years later, I feel the same.

doublem23
11-27-2012, 10:06 AM
Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas. Don't know why people seem to forget about them, they had career seasons of career seasons for middle relief which, luckily for the Sox, happened to fall in the same season and then they both promptly fell off a cliff and out of baseball just a few years later.

This definitely, but even more so the entire pitching staff regressed from 2005, whether it be that '05 was a career year never to be repeated or just the overall stress from an extra month of play-off baseball. No starter on the '06 team posted an ERA lower than 4 and change; Buehrle's ERA was almost 5. In 2005, the Sox had a middle of the road offense (4.57 RS/G, 9th in the AL) and the best pitching staff (3.61 ERA, 1st in AL and 3.98 RA/G, 3rd in the AL) in the league. In 2006, they had an elite offense (5.36 RS/G, 3rd in AL) but a below average pitching staff (4.90 RA/G, 11th in the AL).

The Thome/Rowand deal clearly improved the Sox's weakness from the previous season. If you want to look at a deal that off-season that is more to blame for the Sox's failings post-'05, I think the Vazquez for Young, Vizcaino, and Hernandez deal would be more up your alley. Vazquez never seemed to be able to tap into his talent and solve the pitching problems in '06. Obviously asking 1 pitcher to make or break a rotation is silly, but Vazquez was acquired and expected to be the ace and he never did. Add the breakdowns of Garcia and Contreras in '07 and it was a recipe for disaster, not to mention the Sox gave up a player who could have potentially replaced BA after he proved himself incapable of being an everyday MLB player.

But, almost as important, the Sox were just unlucky to be in the wrong division. A 90-win team that finishes in 3rd place is very rare. If the now current play-off system had been in place, we'd at least have gotten 1 last crack at Detroit. Who knows?

Foulke You
11-27-2012, 12:28 PM
But, almost as important, the Sox were just unlucky to be in the wrong division. A 90-win team that finishes in 3rd place is very rare. If the now current play-off system had been in place, we'd at least have gotten 1 last crack at Detroit. Who knows?
Very good point. The '06 Sox were flawed but still a very good team. The Twins and Tigers played out of their minds that season. This was especially true in the second half.

Lip Man 1
11-27-2012, 07:36 PM
Sox seem to have been "unlucky" for most of their existence. They are still the only original franchise (pre expansion) to have never made the post season in consecutive years.

Luck is part of it but to me, not a very large part.

Lip

A. Cavatica
11-27-2012, 08:11 PM
Thank you! Pitching, or lack thereof, is the main reason the Sox did not get back to the playoffs in 2006. Buehrle fell off in the second half, and as you mentioned, relievers like Politte and Cotts had career years in 2005. There is no guarantee that standing pat would have led to a repeat. After all, Thomas suffered season-ending injuries in 2004 and 2005. There was no guarantee (there's that word again, but it's true) that he would've been healthy in 2006. We only know this in hindsight. But some people love to live in the Land of If Only.

The manager was the reason we did not get back to the playoffs in 2006.

Frater Perdurabo
11-27-2012, 08:15 PM
The manager was the reason we did not get back to the playoffs in 2006.

Two critical managerial mistakes:

Using Brandon McCarthy in the pen instead of as a sixth starter to give Buehrle and Contreras more rest;

Playing Mackowiak regularly in CF.

I'm not sure these two mistakes were enough to lose the division, but they did cost the Sox a few games.

mzh
11-27-2012, 08:22 PM
The manager was the reason we did not get back to the playoffs in 2006.
Ozzie had a 6.44 ERA in the second half? Oh wait, that was Buehrle.

The Sox went 2-13 when Ozzie pitched in the second half? Nope, Javy Vazquez.

Ozzie blew 3 saves in September down the stretch? Bobby Jenks, actually.

I hold no love for Ozzie but are you serious? I guess Ozzie didn't start BA the second game of the year. That's about it. When your starters have a 4.65 ERA it doesn't matter if you have Casey Stengel or Terry Bevington managing, you ain't going nowhere.

EDIT: Playing Mack in center being an exception, but in his defense Anderson was thought to be pretty much a sure thing, at least from what I remember.

Lip Man 1
11-27-2012, 08:24 PM
Frater:

I distinctly remember Mackowiak telling Gonzo in a story how upset he was at his poor play in center field but he also told him that when he came to the Sox he was told by both Kenny and Ozzie that he'd be playing some back up 3rd base and the corner outfield spots.

Mack said he didn't even practice that off season on doing any work in center field (and it showed). Mackowiak was a stand up guy who was put in a bad situation.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
11-28-2012, 06:15 AM
Frater:

I distinctly remember Mackowiak telling Gonzo in a story how upset he was at his poor play in center field but he also told him that when he came to the Sox he was told by both Kenny and Ozzie that he'd be playing some back up 3rd base and the corner outfield spots.

Mack said he didn't even practice that off season on doing any work in center field (and it showed). Mackowiak was a stand up guy who was put in a bad situation.

Lip

It's really a shame, too, because Mackowiak grew up a Sox fan. Stupid, stubborn Ozzie.

DSpivack
11-28-2012, 10:16 AM
It's really a shame, too, because Mackowiak grew up a Sox fan. Stupid, stubborn Ozzie.

I remember that Big Hurt game fondly, when Mackowiak hit a game-tying HR.

WhiteSox5187
11-28-2012, 01:17 PM
It's really a shame, too, because Mackowiak grew up a Sox fan. Stupid, stubborn Ozzie.

When the White Sox signed Mackowiak Rick Hahn was quoted as saying "This guy can really play some center field." I think that Rob Mackowiak in center field idea wasn't Ozzie's alone.

http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/10/26/3557724/rick-hahn-a-timeline

TommyJohn
11-28-2012, 05:56 PM
I don't look back fondly on the trade, but I do fondly remember the Sox fan catchphrase for 2006: "Rowand would've had that."

Falstaff
11-28-2012, 07:03 PM
What he said. Everyone agrees Thome is a great guy and possible future HOFer, but BA always had that deer in the headlights look at every bat, and the rotation of players after him cost us dearly. All Thome brought was his bat with no defense to patch the loss of Rowland.

My opinion on hearing about that trade was "we just ran the table and won the W.S., team chemistry was working, why break things up?". Seven years later, I feel the same.

Absolutely! I felt the same way then and I do today. Also that trade which
lost El Duque and brought Viz... ya, that was another head scratcher and many on boards questioned at the time.

I think they placed excess faith in the Brian Anderson machine. IIRC, he had an OK debut but Oz insisted BA bat more for power than average; the
result was neither power nor avg. Will always cherish a certain catch at end of 2008 tho.

Also we really got the best years of Jermaine Dye, he carried the club with his big stick. Till time suddenly caught up. BTW did he ever officially retire?

shingo10
11-28-2012, 07:26 PM
Absolutely! I felt the same way then and I do today. Also that trade which
lost El Duque and brought Viz... ya, that was another head scratcher and many on boards questioned at the time.

I think they placed excess faith in the Brian Anderson machine. IIRC, he had an OK debut but Oz insisted BA bat more for power than average; the
result was neither power nor avg. Will always cherish a certain catch at end of 2008 tho.

Also we really got the best years of Jermaine Dye, he carried the club with his big stick. Till time suddenly caught up. BTW did he ever officially retire?


Yes I believe he did at the start of this year. Or maybe it was last year. Don't remember but I'm positive he did officially announce it.