PDA

View Full Version : Buster Posey and Miguel Cabrera win MVP


chicagowhitesox1
11-15-2012, 06:23 PM
Both were landslides and I can see Posey winning by a large margin but I really expected the AL voting to be alot closer. I feel Trout was the real MVP for the AL though.

SephClone89
11-15-2012, 08:05 PM
22 to 6 in first place voting is a disgrace.

SOXSINCE'70
11-15-2012, 08:24 PM
Both deserved this honor,but 22-6 is slighly tilted,IMO.

I'm just glad Posey's team beat Cabrera's in the World Series.

Gotta love a Giants WS Sweep!!:bandance::)

SOXSINCE'70
11-15-2012, 08:29 PM
I feel Trout was the real MVP for the AL though.

Many others feel that way,myself included.However,if Trout puts up similar numbers in '13,he will be a candidate again.I hope he wins the award by a land slide some day.

soxnut1018
11-15-2012, 09:36 PM
Trout had the better season, but it's hard to be too upset with a Triple Crown winner being MVP.

TDog
11-15-2012, 10:19 PM
j... I'm just glad Posey's team beat Cabrera's in the World Series. ...


Last out of the World Series had both league MVPs at the plate, one in failure making the out offensively and the other in victory getting the putout defensively. I don't know if that has ever happened before, but I'm guessing it hasn't.

Because I think both selections were so obvious to me, I wouldn't have been surprised if both votes had been unanimous. I could see how some writers could have voted for Trout, but Posey wasn't simply an offensive force. He was the leader of a first-place team on defense and evn in the clubhouse.

DSpivack
11-15-2012, 10:35 PM
Last out of the World Series had both league MVPs at the plate, one in failure making the out offensively and the other in victory getting the putout defensively. I don't know if that has ever happened before, but I'm guessing it hasn't.

Because I think both selections were so obvious to me, I wouldn't have been surprised if both votes had been unanimous. I could see how some writers could have voted for Trout, but Posey wasn't simply an offensive force. He was the leader of a first-place team on defense and evn in the clubhouse.

You have to go back to 1976 just to find a season in which both MVP winners were in the World Series.

pythons007
11-16-2012, 03:23 PM
Anyone listening to the Score or ESPN? I'm still at work and haven't heard a word. What's the commenting like?

SI1020
11-16-2012, 05:24 PM
Trout had the better season, but it's hard to be too upset with a Triple Crown winner being MVP. Did he? Because baseball-reference said his WAR is higher? Does anybody here know how to calculate WAR? I'm just asking, for all I know some of you do. Trout is a sensational young talent, and I probably appreciate defense more than most baseball fans, but like you said it's hard to kick about Cabrera winning the award this year.

doublem23
11-16-2012, 05:26 PM
Did he? Because baseball-reference said his WAR is higher? Does anybody here know how to calculate WAR? I'm just asking, for all I know some of you do. Trout is a sensational young talent, and I probably appreciate defense more than most baseball fans, but like you said it's hard to kick about Cabrera winning the award this year.

Yes

SI1020
11-16-2012, 05:36 PM
Yes He could be a once in a generation type of player, and I sure as hell wish we had him. I love watching him play.

chicagowhitesox1
11-16-2012, 06:32 PM
Did he? Because baseball-reference said his WAR is higher? Does anybody here know how to calculate WAR? I'm just asking, for all I know some of you do. Trout is a sensational young talent, and I probably appreciate defense more than most baseball fans, but like you said it's hard to kick about Cabrera winning the award this year.

I don't think WAR is perfect but in this case I feel it gives a good idea on who really had the better year. Trout had a 10.7 WAR while missing 3 weeks of the season which is historical and Cabrera had a 6.9 WAR which is good but can also be considered even below MVP standards in a saber type of view.

I don't have a problem with a triple crown winner winning the MVP but for Trout to only get 6 first place votes is a pretty old fashioned way of thinking by the writers. Most MLB teams if not all are using saber stats to evaluate players so it's probably time for the writers to start doing the same.

I don't buy into this logic of Cabrera won because he lead his team into the playoffs either. In the final 30 games of the season the Angels went 19-11 while the Tigers went 18-13. The main reason why the Tigers advanced is because the Whitesox stumbled and the Athletics won 8 of their last 9 games. Mike Trout energized a slumping team into a playoff contender and had he been called up earlier I think the Angels make the playoffs.

soxnut1018
11-16-2012, 06:58 PM
Did he? Because baseball-reference said his WAR is higher? Does anybody here know how to calculate WAR? I'm just asking, for all I know some of you do. Trout is a sensational young talent, and I probably appreciate defense more than most baseball fans, but like you said it's hard to kick about Cabrera winning the award this year.

You don't even need to use WAR. Just look at their offensive statistics (avg, obp, slg) and then factor in that Trout is far superior on defense and on the basepaths. This really isn't hard. Trout also played in a worse hitter's ballpark and in a tougher division. Trout was better in 2012, but I'm just happy we've finally evolved enough as a baseball world to where this is even debated.

SI1020
11-17-2012, 10:53 AM
You don't even need to use WAR. Just look at their offensive statistics (avg, obp, slg) and then factor in that Trout is far superior on defense and on the basepaths. This really isn't hard. Trout also played in a worse hitter's ballpark and in a tougher division. Trout was better in 2012, but I'm just happy we've finally evolved enough as a baseball world to where this is even debated. I did.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2012-batting-leaders.shtml

Is it that big a runaway? I think that eventually all the awards will be made on the basis of WAR or a combination of saber stats. I also don't think that will be a good thing. It is not possible for me to go into this in greater detail without crossing the line into forbidden territory. I just do not wish to cede all decision making to the bean counters of the world. Anyway, Trout and Cabrera both had great years and I would love to have Trout on the Sox. If I had the power to pick one player in MLB for the Sox it would probably be him.

shes
11-17-2012, 12:17 PM
A Triple Crown season from a veteran is so much safer a pick than a sabermetric wet dream season from a rookie. Not surprising that Cabrera won, but the margin certainly is.

Oblong
11-17-2012, 01:23 PM
You have to go back to 1976 just to find a season in which both MVP winners were in the World Series.
1988, Gibson with the Dodgers and Canseco with the A's.

As soon as the announcements were made I went and looked it up. I would not have guessed that off the top of my head.

DSpivack
11-17-2012, 01:26 PM
1988, Gibson with the Dodgers and Canseco with the A's.

As soon as the announcements were made I went and looked it up. I would not have guessed that off the top of my head.

D'oh!

chicagowhitesox1
11-17-2012, 02:23 PM
Kirk Gibson was kinda known as a guy who won a MVP due to his World Series homerun but he actually had a very good year in WAR standards. I think he came in 6Th place overall for WAR that year. I always thought of him as being one of the worst MVP picks of alltime but he actually had a pretty good year compared to the rest of the league.

Daryl Strawberry or Orel Hershiser probably would have been his number one competitors.

WhiteSox5187
11-17-2012, 04:26 PM
Kirk Gibson was kinda known as a guy who won a MVP due to his World Series homerun but he actually had a very good year in WAR standards. I think he came in 6Th place overall for WAR that year. I always thought of him as being one of the worst MVP picks of alltime but he actually had a pretty good year compared to the rest of the league.

Daryl Strawberry or Orel Hershiser probably would have been his number one competitors.

Unless they changed the way they vote, the MVP is selected before the World Series and announced after.

TDog
11-17-2012, 04:44 PM
Kirk Gibson was kinda known as a guy who won a MVP due to his World Series homerun but he actually had a very good year in WAR standards. I think he came in 6Th place overall for WAR that year. I always thought of him as being one of the worst MVP picks of alltime but he actually had a pretty good year compared to the rest of the league.

Daryl Strawberry or Orel Hershiser probably would have been his number one competitors.

The MVP votes were cast before the beginning of the postseason.

Maybe Gibson won the award because he was the team leader of the Dodgers, clearly the most valuable player on the team, while there was no clear most valuable team leader on the Mets who won the NL East, Strawberry and McReynolds splitting the remaining first place votes. I wasn't watching much NL baseball at the time.

If you just look at stats almost a quarter of a century later, you take the award out of context. If you only look at stats, you diminish the award. MVP shouldn't be something you can quantify mathematically.

Since divisional play, especially now with three races and wild cards in each league, statistics have carried more weight because the are so many heroic stories and the voting writers don't even see some of them. Bob Costas suggests the the MVP vote come after the league championship series because the pre-World Series postseason has become part of league play. And he might have a point.

I would have been surprised if the vote for either MVP this year would have been closer. I would have been less surprised if the Cabrera or especially Posey had been unanimous. I'm not at all a Cabrera fan, but I think he was clearly the AL MVP.

I think some are vocally disappointed in the vote because they see it being about stats and failing to validate their argument that batting average and RBIs don't mean anything. Of course, even if batting average, RBIs and clutch hitting aren't a predictor of future success, it's what Cabrera did. And as the season wore on, it's what Trout didn't do at the same level.

SephClone89
11-17-2012, 04:58 PM
I think some are vocally disappointed in the vote because they see it being about stats and failing to validate their argument that batting average and RBIs don't mean anything. Of course, even if batting average, RBIs and clutch hitting aren't a predictor of future success, it's what Cabrera did. And as the season wore on, it's what Trout didn't do at the same level.

"Wait, why was this Mike Trout MVP thing about stats?" (http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/11/16/3654460/mike-trout-miguel-cabrera-stats-mvp)

BleacherBandit
11-17-2012, 05:05 PM
This is my view:

If the standard should be changed so that the player with the highest WAR is the MVP then the MVP as an award would become outmoded.

If WAR is to be considered the single indicator of a league MVP, there is no need for consideration. MVP titles become something of a universal mathematic truth. If the MVP title is to remain an award, then I think it's perfectly acceptable for a man who won the triple effin' crown to be considered the best player for a given year.

Why are these awards handed out every year? Because there shouldn't be a consistent mathematical outcome which determines a player's worthiness, a purely subjective consideration. If you're upset that Trout didn't win the MVP, consider that winning something is different than earning something.

Trout earned the respect and admiration of baseball fans because objectively he's the best offensive and defensive player in the American League. Cabrera won a silly plaque. Who cares?

SI1020
11-17-2012, 05:12 PM
Cabrera led the AL in BA, HR, RBI, Slugging Pct., OPS, Total Bases, Runs Created, Adj Batting Runs, Adj Batting Wins, Extra Base Hits and for the true Saber lover Situ. Wins Added (WPA/LI).