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View Full Version : Torii Hunter agrees to a 2-year deal with the Tigers


#1swisher
11-14-2012, 11:12 AM
Mods, please merge with duplicate thread. Thank you.

Ken Rosenthal
Torii to #Tigers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Tigers&src=hash). Two-year agreement, pending physical.

BringBackBlkJack
11-14-2012, 11:12 AM
Per Ken Rosenthal as stated on MLB Network's Facebook. No details yet.

#1swisher
11-14-2012, 11:22 AM
Jon Heyman
hunter gets $26M deal from #tigers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23tigers&src=hash) for the 2 yrs. goal seemed to be to be in beltran range (same 26/2).

DonnieDarko
11-14-2012, 11:26 AM
...oh no. This is not good. *sigh*

palehozenychicty
11-14-2012, 11:38 AM
A good deal for the Tigers, actually. If he does underperform, then you only are on the hook for two years.

The Sox need to figure it out.

Madvora
11-14-2012, 12:20 PM
Great. A Sox killer back in the division.

Boondock Saint
11-14-2012, 12:38 PM
Well, looks like I'm off to go kill myself.

JB98
11-14-2012, 12:43 PM
Am I the only Sox fan not bothered by this move?

Go ahead, Detroit. Sign some more old guys.

Boondock Saint
11-14-2012, 12:47 PM
Am I the only Sox fan not bothered by this move?

Go ahead, Detroit. Sign some more old guys.

This particular old guy hit .313 last year.

JB98
11-14-2012, 12:52 PM
This particular old guy hit .313 last year.

I'll bet you anything he doesn't repeat that. That was a career high. The guy is a lifetime .277 hitter. He hit .262 the year before last.

I'm not afraid of Torii Hunter. Huge overpay by the Tigers.

Boondock Saint
11-14-2012, 01:00 PM
I'll bet you anything he doesn't repeat that. That was a career high. The guy is a lifetime .277 hitter. He hit .262 the year before last.

I'm not afraid of Torii Hunter. Huge overpay by the Tigers.

He doesn't have to hit .313 to be dangerous in that lineup.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2012, 01:04 PM
JB:

I suspect Ilitch isn't concerned in any way shape or form that he potentially 'overpaid' for Hunter.

He wants to hold that trophy before he dies.

Hunter is still a good player. Wish the Sox had more of his type even if he 'only' hits .270. I'd take that in a heartbeat over some of the averages in the Sox lineup.

Detroit is simply going to bludgeon teams next year.

Lip

Soxman219
11-14-2012, 01:12 PM
Great, another Sox Killer back in the AL Central. Unreal.:mad:

SephClone89
11-14-2012, 01:21 PM
So he's the Delmon Young replacement. Good for them.

delben91
11-14-2012, 01:30 PM
Detroit is simply going to bludgeon teams next year.

Lip

Sounds similar to the Sox teams of the early 2000s. Lets see if the starting pitching beyond Verlander can keep at the high level they showed in the playoffs before we crown anyone.

johnnyg83
11-14-2012, 01:31 PM
Good lineup on paper ... VMart back and Hunter instead of Young.

LoveYourSuit
11-14-2012, 03:08 PM
So he's the Delmon Young replacement. Good for them.

Tell me about it. They actually upgraded themselves.

Despite losing speed, Hunter a much better fielder than Young.

Chez
11-14-2012, 03:10 PM
This surprises me. Detroit has good, young, cheap internal options.

doublem23
11-14-2012, 03:30 PM
This surprises me. Detroit has good, young, cheap internal options.

Young, cheap internal options fail probably north of 90% of the time. Good teams that want to win don't rely on them to perform.

Chez
11-14-2012, 03:50 PM
Young, cheap internal options fail probably north of 90% of the time. Good teams that want to win don't rely on them to perform.

Perhaps. But the same young, cheap internal options (Garcia, Dirks, Berry) didn't prevent the Tigers from getting to the World Series last season.

It's a good move for Detroit -- just surprising to me since they still need to allocate resources to their rotation and bullpen.

ChiSoxNationPres
11-14-2012, 03:58 PM
I think Hunter vs Young is more or less a wash at the plate. Plus Hunter has less power. He only hit .313 last year because he was hitting in between Trout and Pujols. But I will still be concerned when he plays against us as always.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2012, 04:30 PM
Delben:

Not 'crowning' anyone but ANY rotation that starts with Verlander and Scherzer isn't exactly chopped liver is it?

Lip

thomas35forever
11-14-2012, 05:52 PM
Back to kill us some more, huh?

Boondock Saint
11-14-2012, 08:35 PM
I think Hunter vs Young is more or less a wash at the plate. Plus Hunter has less power. He only hit .313 last year because he was hitting in between Trout and Pujols. But I will still be concerned when he plays against us as always.

I'm sure hitting somewhere in the middle of Cabrera, Fielder and Victor Martinez is a major step backward in that respect.

JB98
11-14-2012, 08:44 PM
JB:

I suspect Ilitch isn't concerned in any way shape or form that he potentially 'overpaid' for Hunter.

He wants to hold that trophy before he dies.

Hunter is still a good player. Wish the Sox had more of his type even if he 'only' hits .270. I'd take that in a heartbeat over some of the averages in the Sox lineup.

Detroit is simply going to bludgeon teams next year.

Lip

We said that last offseason too. The Tigers scored fewer runs than the Sox this season.

JB98
11-14-2012, 08:48 PM
I'm sure hitting somewhere in the middle of Cabrera, Fielder and Victor Martinez is a major step backward in that respect.

I think Hunter was fortunate to have Trout on base ahead of him all season long. He saw more fastballs and faced pitchers who had divided attention between himself and Trout.

Austin Jackson is a nice player, but he isn't Mike Trout. He certainly isn't the threat on the bases Trout is.

Boondock Saint
11-14-2012, 08:54 PM
I think Hunter was fortunate to have Trout on base ahead of him all season long. He saw more fastballs and faced pitchers who had divided attention between himself and Trout.

Austin Jackson is a nice player, but he isn't Mike Trout. He certainly isn't the threat on the bases Trout is.

That's all true, but his protection is going to be just as good, if not better, in Detroit. He won't have the speed threat on ahead of him, but a good percentage of time, he's going to have a man or two on base or in scoring position, and probably a dangerous hitter on deck behind him. That's a lot of trouble.

JB98
11-14-2012, 08:54 PM
Sounds similar to the Sox teams of the early 2000s. Lets see if the starting pitching beyond Verlander can keep at the high level they showed in the playoffs before we crown anyone.

Crowning people is what we do best here. We conceded the 2008 AL Central Division title to the Tigers on Dec. 4, 2007.

Little did we know Detroit would lose 88 games the following summer.

JB98
11-14-2012, 08:58 PM
That's all true, but his protection is going to be just as good, if not better, in Detroit. He won't have the speed threat on ahead of him, but a good percentage of time, he's going to have a man or two on base or in scoring position, and probably a dangerous hitter on deck behind him. That's a lot of trouble.

I don't think he's any more trouble than Delmon Young is/was.

If Detroit is better next season, I think it will be because Martinez comes back and plays at pre-injury levels. Whether he does that is anybody's guess.

I'm sorry, I just don't think this signing is a game-changer in this division.

PalehosePlanet
11-14-2012, 09:03 PM
I think Hunter was fortunate to have Trout on base ahead of him all season long. He saw more fastballs and faced pitchers who had divided attention between himself and Trout.

Austin Jackson is a nice player, but he isn't Mike Trout. He certainly isn't the threat on the bases Trout is.

I'm with you JB, there is a good chance Hunter falls off a cliff this year.

As for Victor Martinez, a 34 year old DH/1B after missing a season, is also far from a sure thing.

WSI is sounding a lot like the winter of '07 and '08 again.

Boondock Saint
11-14-2012, 09:09 PM
WSI is sounding a lot like the winter of '07 and '08 again.

Oh come on. They just went to the World Series, and replaced a decent DH with a long time Sox killer who just came off of a .313 season. Nobody's giving up, but let's not pretend that Torii Hunter is going to suck all of a sudden just because.

Lip Man 1
11-14-2012, 09:30 PM
JB:

I don't think anyone is saying this is a "game changer" or "division changer" in any sense of the word. I think most are saying that Hunter is still a good player and will help this lineup and team more than some who think this is basically a 'nothing' signing.

Time will tell who is closer to the truth.

Lip

DirtySox
11-14-2012, 10:25 PM
Might be a slight overpay, but Ilitch cares little. Huge upgrade defensively over Delmon Young. Nice signing for Detroit. Now they just need an upgrade for RF. One wonders if they are players for Justin Upton. Depends how the D-Backs view Castellanos I suppose.

PalehosePlanet
11-14-2012, 10:49 PM
Oh come on. They just went to the World Series, and replaced a decent DH with a long time Sox killer who just came off of a .313 season. Nobody's giving up, but let's not pretend that Torii Hunter is going to suck all of a sudden just because.

They were just one year removed from a world series going into '08 and had just acquired Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. Panic galore at WSI! Same ****, different day. A team w/the 7th best record in the AL sneaking into the world series is not very impressive; sorry, but I'm not worried by the signing of a 38 year old who in my opinion will be very average. I personally would have stuck w/Delmon Young, given their ages and the breakout potential of Young versus the inevitable decline of Hunter.

Also, gauging a player's value strictly by what they did last season, especially at age 37, is asinine. Dombrowski should know better, but hey! what the ****, it's not his money. My guess is Dirks or Boesch will platoon w/Hunter by June 1st. His .313 last season means nothing, it was his last hurrah, an outlier. I'm just relieved that we didn't sign him.

JB98
11-15-2012, 12:27 AM
I'm with you JB, there is a good chance Hunter falls off a cliff this year.

As for Victor Martinez, a 34 year old DH/1B after missing a season, is also far from a sure thing.

WSI is sounding a lot like the winter of '07 and '08 again.

Exactly. There are plenty of examples of guys who struggle their first year back after missing all or most of a season. Anyone who is a Sox fan should remember what happened to Frank Thomas. Coming off the injury in '01, he struggled in '02. He still put some numbers up, sure, but he wasn't really Frank Thomas again until '03. Victor Martinez might be good next year, or he might not be. I wouldn't assume Martinez is automatically going to be the .330 hitter he was in '11.

I really, really doubt Hunter is going to duplicate that .389 BABIP he had in 2012. Believe it or not, A.J. Pierzynski had a higher OPS than Hunter this past summer. There are quite a few here who don't want A.J. resigned because they figure there's no chance he'll duplicate that season at his age. It's a legitimate opinion, and I see no reason why the same logic shouldn't be applied to Torii Hunter.

DSpivack
11-15-2012, 12:48 AM
Might be a slight overpay, but Ilitch cares little. Huge upgrade defensively over Delmon Young. Nice signing for Detroit. Now they just need an upgrade for RF. One wonders if they are players for Justin Upton. Depends how the D-Backs view Castellanos I suppose.

Where is Hunter going to play? I thought he'd be in RF. LF?

Konerko05
11-15-2012, 02:40 AM
They were just one year removed from a world series going into '08 and had just acquired Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. Panic galore at WSI! Same ****, different day. A team w/the 7th best record in the AL sneaking into the world series is not very impressive; sorry, but I'm not worried by the signing of a 38 year old who in my opinion will be very average. I personally would have stuck w/Delmon Young, given their ages and the breakout potential of Young versus the inevitable decline of Hunter.

Also, gauging a player's value strictly by what they did last season, especially at age 37, is asinine. Dombrowski should know better, but hey! what the ****, it's not his money. My guess is Dirks or Boesch will platoon w/Hunter by June 1st. His .313 last season means nothing, it was his last hurrah, an outlier. I'm just relieved that we didn't sign him.

Ok, Hunter's last four seasons:

.873 OPS
.819 OPS
.765 OPS
.817 OPS

Young's last four seasons:

.733 OPS
.826 OPS
.695 OPS
.707 OPS

I'm not saying it is the greatest signing in the world nor am I panicing that this move puts Detroit out of reach, but you are simply just guessing Hunter is going to fall off dramatically next season. Judging from the last FOUR seasons, it looks like the Tigers improved offensively and defensively in LF.

TDog
11-15-2012, 03:41 PM
Am I the only Sox fan not bothered by this move?

Go ahead, Detroit. Sign some more old guys.

You're not, even if you and I may find ourselvelves in the same minority on that point.

I really don't know that spending money will win teams championships. The teams that spent money going into last last season, for the most part, didn't have the seasons fans expected. The Angels finished third in their division, behind a first-place team notorious for not spending money. The Angels' late charge wasn't sparked by the big-money veterans.

Maybe the Tigers spent money wisely in signing Hunter. Time will tell. But what I expect from Hunter is what I expected from the young developing talent the Tigers could be holding back. I don't expect Berry to play as well in the future as he did in 2012, but I don't know that Hunter improves the Tigers as much as the contract would seem to demand. I would be surprised if he has a big offensive season playing for the Tigers. It isn't like he will beg a substantial boost if the Tigers hit him ahead of Cabrera because he was hitting ahead of Pujols last season.

Hunter isn't really any more a "Sox killer" than Delmon Young, who had an awful lot of big hits for hte Tigers in 2012. And Cabrera and Fielder were playing out of their minds offensively. I don't know if Hunter, Cabrera and Fielder will repeat their 2012 levels in 2013.

A couple of winters ago, it was the Red Sox signing Carl Crawford that was supposed to translate into championships.

Nellie_Fox
11-15-2012, 03:55 PM
...Cabrera and Fielder were playing out of their minds offensively. I don't know if Hunter, Cabrera and Fielder will repeat their 2012 levels in 2013.Actually, Cabrera and Fielder were very much in line with their career 162 game averages. They both had very good years, but not surprising compared to their other years. There's no reason to expect any significant drop off from them, because a "regression to the mean" would not be a very long move.

SephClone89
11-15-2012, 03:56 PM
For the record, Torii Hunter's career numbers against the Sox compared to his career totals are not that impressive. Good, yes, but it's hardly like he plays out of his mind against the Sox.

Sometimes, a player is just good.

TDog
11-15-2012, 04:15 PM
Actually, Cabrera and Fielder were very much in line with their career 162 game averages. They both had very good years, but not surprising compared to their other years. There's no reason to expect any significant drop off from them, because a "regression to the mean" would not be a very long move.

I'm not referring to "regressikon to the mean." That is for those that believe that past statistics tell you what future statistics will be.

Cabrera has had two straight seasons that should have won him the MVP. He will certainly win this year after Verlander lobbied to rob him of it last year. I don't believe its a matter of Cabrera regressing to his mean. I just don't believe that when he goes out for another season he will have a third straight MVP season.

Domeshot17
11-15-2012, 04:35 PM
Many of those who seem to not think Torii Hunter is very good are some of the same people who think Gordon Beckham is a great player :scratch:.

They upgrade the offense in a corner OF spot while VASTLY improving the OF defense. Plus, Hunter is an incredible mentor to young players, and has been credited widely with helping Trout, Trumbo and many other young hitters flourish.

Detroit has a small window to go for it all right now, Probably 2 years, but many that window is now Wide Open.

They have 2 of the top 4 or 5 SP in the AL Central, and one of the best 1-2 punches in all of baseball.

They have the best middle of the order in baseball

Now they have a pretty solid defensive OF.

They need to shore up the bullpen, but this is a good team.

palehozenychicty
11-15-2012, 04:58 PM
Many of those who seem to not think Torii Hunter is very good are some of the same people who think Gordon Beckham is a great player :scratch:.

They upgrade the offense in a corner OF spot while VASTLY improving the OF defense. Plus, Hunter is an incredible mentor to young players, and has been credited widely with helping Trout, Trumbo and many other young hitters flourish.

Detroit has a small window to go for it all right now, Probably 2 years, but many that window is now Wide Open.

They have 2 of the top 4 or 5 SP in the AL Central, and one of the best 1-2 punches in all of baseball.

They have the best middle of the order in baseball

Now they have a pretty solid defensive OF.

They need to shore up the bullpen, but this is a good team.

You know that people here overvalue this roster and dismiss anyone outside of it. That's most fan bases, though.

Detroit is a solid team. Their young outfielders also get more time to ease into game experience. That helps with their roster depth.

If the management can somehow improve the Sox lineup, then I'll feel better about our chances. I think our pitching staff is good enough to compete. We have enough depth and the experience gained by the younger arms will pay dividends next season.

AnkleSox
11-15-2012, 06:17 PM
I predict Torii will have a game winning hit early in the season against the Sox and everyone here will put their collective heads in a noose and lament that this was the signing that will push the Tigers to a World Series victory.

I'm not excluding myself, because who knows how many drinks I will have had.

DSpivack
11-15-2012, 07:25 PM
Actually, Cabrera and Fielder were very much in line with their career 162 game averages. They both had very good years, but not surprising compared to their other years. There's no reason to expect any significant drop off from them, because a "regression to the mean" would not be a very long move.

2012 was arguably Cabrera's worst year in Detroit.

mzh
11-15-2012, 07:40 PM
2012 was arguably Cabrera's worst year in Detroit.
From 2008-2011 with Detroit he averaged .322/35/115. This year he hit .330/44/139. Not even close.

SOXSINCE'70
11-15-2012, 08:35 PM
This particular old guy hit .313 last year.

I still have nightmares about how he'd rob Crede,Uribe and various other Sox with his "Spiderman"-esque catches at the old Metrodoom.

It just seemed like this "Old Guy" hit .700-.800 against the Sox during those early nightmare years (2001-2006) when the Sox were lucky to go 9-9 against the Twinks.:mad:

SOXSINCE'70
11-15-2012, 08:37 PM
2012 was arguably Cabrera's worst year in Detroit.

I'd hate to see what his "best year" looks like.:D:

Oblong
11-15-2012, 08:43 PM
Just an FYI... Quentin Berry has no future on the Tigers. This is a good signing for the Tigers. Victor Martinez is replacing Delmon Young. Torii Hunter is replacing the myriad of OF they trotted out in the corners last year. I don't have the #'s in front of me but they were near the bottom in production for combined output from RF and LF. The only guys they had in the corner that produced were Dirks, who missed a lot of time due to injury and Garcia, who started the season in A ball and is only 21. He didn't come up until Aug 31 (I think it was against the Sox). The fact he was starting in the WS was not because of his talent but because of the lack of OF talent.

Oblong
11-15-2012, 08:49 PM
From 2008-2011 with Detroit he averaged .322/35/115. This year he hit .330/44/139. Not even close.

Going by OPS+, 2012 was his 3rd worst year in Detroit. But you are talking 165 vs 178 and 179 so the difference is pretty much negligible.

JB98
11-15-2012, 09:09 PM
Many of those who seem to not think Torii Hunter is very good are some of the same people who think Gordon Beckham is a great player :scratch:.

They upgrade the offense in a corner OF spot while VASTLY improving the OF defense. Plus, Hunter is an incredible mentor to young players, and has been credited widely with helping Trout, Trumbo and many other young hitters flourish.

Detroit has a small window to go for it all right now, Probably 2 years, but many that window is now Wide Open.

They have 2 of the top 4 or 5 SP in the AL Central, and one of the best 1-2 punches in all of baseball.

They have the best middle of the order in baseball

Now they have a pretty solid defensive OF.

They need to shore up the bullpen, but this is a good team.

Name me one person who thinks that.

DSpivack
11-15-2012, 10:31 PM
Going by OPS+, 2012 was his 3rd worst year in Detroit. But you are talking 165 vs 178 and 179 so the difference is pretty much negligible.

From 2008-2011 with Detroit he averaged .322/35/115. This year he hit .330/44/139. Not even close.

As Oblong said, it is that close. I had forgotten he's been there 5 years, not 3, however. But the last 3 years:
2010: .328/.420/.642; 84 XBH
2011: .344/.448/.586; 78 XBH
2012: .330/.393/.606; 84 XBH

Just an FYI... Quentin Berry has no future on the Tigers. This is a good signing for the Tigers. Victor Martinez is replacing Delmon Young. Torii Hunter is replacing the myriad of OF they trotted out in the corners last year. I don't have the #'s in front of me but they were near the bottom in production for combined output from RF and LF. The only guys they had in the corner that produced were Dirks, who missed a lot of time due to injury and Garcia, who started the season in A ball and is only 21. He didn't come up until Aug 31 (I think it was against the Sox). The fact he was starting in the WS was not because of his talent but because of the lack of OF talent.

Does Dirks get moved to RF, then?

Nellie_Fox
11-16-2012, 12:01 AM
I'm not referring to "regressikon to the mean." That is for those that believe that past statistics tell you what future statistics will be.

Cabrera has had two straight seasons that should have won him the MVP. He will certainly win this year after Verlander lobbied to rob him of it last year. I don't believe its a matter of Cabrera regressing to his mean. I just don't believe that when he goes out for another season he will have a third straight MVP season.You said that Cabrera and Fielder "were playing out of their minds offensively." I was merely pointing out that they were actually playing at an offensive rate that was pretty much their career norms, and certainly nothing enough out of the ordinary to have a reason to believe that they'll regress any significant amount this coming year.

TDog
11-16-2012, 01:26 AM
You said that Cabrera and Fielder "were playing out of their minds offensively." I was merely pointing out that they were actually playing at an offensive rate that was pretty much their career norms, and certainly nothing enough out of the ordinary to have a reason to believe that they'll regress any significant amount this coming year.

Fielder had never been a .300 hitter, although he had come close in the National League, but he hit well over .300 with the Tigers. He didn't have as many home runs playing in a bigger ballpark and didn't have as many RBIs as he had in seasons with the Brewers, but he was hitting behind the league leader in RBIs and home runs. He didn't walk as much, in part because he wasn't being walked intentionally nearly as often, but he did better by getting hits when he wasn't walking and struck out appreciably less than he had been striking out in his last three years in Milwaukee. If you are only looking at Fielder's OPS, you are ignoring what a great offensive season he had. He even hit over .300 with runners in scoring position overall and with two outs.

As for Cabrera, I expect that at some point his offense will peak. For the last couple of years, everything has fallen into place for him offensivlely. The stats stats don't tell you about the big hits Cabrera has had for the last two seasons. This year he hit .420 and slugged .720 with two outs and runners in scoring position. That was substantially ahead of his career norms. And I don't know that the Tigers will get that out of him again.

doublem23
11-16-2012, 07:57 AM
Fielder had never been a .300 hitter, although he had come close in the National League, but he hit well over .300 with the Tigers. He didn't have as many home runs playing in a bigger ballpark and didn't have as many RBIs as he had in seasons with the Brewers, but he was hitting behind the league leader in RBIs and home runs. He didn't walk as much, in part because he wasn't being walked intentionally nearly as often, but he did better by getting hits when he wasn't walking and struck out appreciably less than he had been striking out in his last three years in Milwaukee. If you are only looking at Fielder's OPS, you are ignoring what a great offensive season he had. He even hit over .300 with runners in scoring position overall and with two outs.

As for Cabrera, I expect that at some point his offense will peak. For the last couple of years, everything has fallen into place for him offensivlely. The stats stats don't tell you about the big hits Cabrera has had for the last two seasons. This year he hit .420 and slugged .720 with two outs and runners in scoring position. That was substantially ahead of his career norms. And I don't know that the Tigers will get that out of him again.

:rolling:

Adorable

Hitmen77
11-16-2012, 07:59 AM
Hard to believe Hunter's 5-year deal with the Angels has come and gone already. I wonder how things would have played out for the Sox over the last 5 years if he didn't get that last minute offer from LAA?

I have to tip my hat to the Tigers - they're doing what it takes to make their team a perennial playoff team. I wouldn't know what that's like since the Sox have never been a perennial playoff team. Over the last couple of decades, the Sox have only been good enough to be a "once every 5 years or so" playoff team while averaging around .500 the rest of the time.

PalehosePlanet
11-16-2012, 10:09 AM
You know that people here overvalue this roster and dismiss anyone outside of it. That's most fan bases, though.

Detroit is a solid team. Their young outfielders also get more time to ease into game experience. That helps with their roster depth.

If the management can somehow improve the Sox lineup, then I'll feel better about our chances. I think our pitching staff is good enough to compete. We have enough depth and the experience gained by the younger arms will pay dividends next season.

To me the opposite is true for our fan base. Especially here at WSI where the grass is always greener on the other side mentality reigns supreme. If you ever listened to Chris Rongey's show after a loss, or a shaky win, you'd know that ALL of our players suck.

E.G. Every year our fans think that we're the worst team, or one of the worst teams in MLB, in hitting w/RISP. That we're the worst team in MLB in scoring a runner from 3rd w/less than two out, etc.... Yet, outside of 2011, every year we're pretty much middle of the pack or close to the top in those categories.

I have no problem giving other teams credit when it's due. Does Detroit have talent? Sure. Do they have as many flaws/holes as The White Sox? Yes.

doublem23
11-16-2012, 10:10 AM
I have no problem giving other teams credit when it's due. Does Detroit have talent? Sure. Do they have as many flaws/holes as The White Sox? Yes.

Do the Tigers have flaws/holes? Yes, every team does.

Do they have as many as the Sox? No.

PalehosePlanet
11-16-2012, 10:20 AM
Do the Tigers have flaws/holes? Yes, every team does.

Do they have as many as the Sox? No.

Well, IMO, they still have the worst infield defense in MLB, have no closer, are short another 3 arms in the pen and perhaps a 4th and 5th starter.

I guess it all depends on what people's opinions are of certain players.

doublem23
11-16-2012, 10:59 AM
Well, IMO, they still have the worst infield defense in MLB, have no closer, are short another 3 arms in the pen and perhaps a 4th and 5th starter.

I guess it all depends on what people's opinions are of certain players.

The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Again, not saying the Tigers don't have their share of problems, but to say they're even with the Sox is crazy. We currently have holes at 2B, 3B, and C. We have major questions at 1B, our everyday DH, and arguably SS and CF, as well.

PalehosePlanet
11-16-2012, 11:30 AM
The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Again, not saying the Tigers don't have their share of problems, but to say they're even with the Sox is crazy. We currently have holes at 2B, 3B, and C. We have major questions at 1B, our everyday DH, and arguably SS and CF, as well.

That's not a good way to measure the importance of IF defense. Who's to say they wouldn't have won 98 games w/a good IF defense? And bad D shows up a lot more than just unearned runs allowed. Had they lost the division to us, their terrible D would have been the reason why.

And, yes, they are still better than us on paper, I'm not arguing that. And maybe our flaws are in areas harder to resolve, but the amount of holes are about equal.

doublem23
11-16-2012, 11:33 AM
That's not a good way to measure the importance of IF defense. Who's to say they wouldn't have won 98 games w/a good IF defense? And bad D shows up a lot more than just unearned runs allowed. Had they lost the division to us, their terrible D would have been the reason why.

I'm not sure if that's true or not, as our offense was better than there's for most of the season, despite the huge seasons Cabrera and Prince had. IF defense just doesn't really matter that much, especially when 1/2 of your IF can't hit for ****.

And the amount of holes is definitely not equal. If Viciedo doesn't grow, Konerko can't find the fountain of youth, and De Aza's 1 decent season at age 30 turns out to be a fluke, upwards to 2/3 of our lineup can't hit. Our pitching staff has a nice 1-2 punch with Sale and Peavy, though, probably not as good as Detroit's and after that, the rotation is kind of a mess with an injured Danks, inconsistent Floyd, and then god knows who, and the bullpen has some problems, starting with a closer with an ERA close to 5.

At this point, it looks like we're going to need the Tigers to just be terrible for 90% of the season again and pray to god that 85 wins will be enough.

Bob Roarman
11-16-2012, 12:09 PM
When it comes to the bullpen I'm more worried about guys like Donnie Veal, Nate Jones and Santiago duplicating or even getting close to the kind of success they had most of this past season. He's a starter, but same goes for Quintana.

JB98
11-16-2012, 12:45 PM
The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Again, not saying the Tigers don't have their share of problems, but to say they're even with the Sox is crazy. We currently have holes at 2B, 3B, and C. We have major questions at 1B, our everyday DH, and arguably SS and CF, as well.

When it comes right down to it, the Tigers are better than the Sox because they have three superstars in their prime -- Cabrera, Verlander and Fielder.

The Tigers, much like the Sox, didn't have a lot of depth this past season. What they did have was three guys to carry them over the finish line those final two or three weeks of September.

I don't think Rick Hahn is going to be able to pull any superstar acquisitions out of his ass this offseason, but hopefully he can build a deeper roster than the one the Sox had in 2012. That would give us a chance to overcome Detroit next summer.

SephClone89
11-16-2012, 01:31 PM
The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Baseball is not an offensive sport.

TDog
11-16-2012, 01:51 PM
:rolling:

Adorable

Be amused, but I actually watch baseball, and I know what I'm talking about.

Stats measure what you have done in the past, and don't tell you much when they are taken in isolation. A .313 season is clearly better than a .299 season if the on-base percentages are similar, and overall, batting average is the more important stat for a hitter whose role is to drive in runs. Strong lineups are built so that pitchers have to pitch to the best RBI hitters. Good hitters who walk because they are selective at the plate will have higher batting averages as a result. OPS makes no distinction between a two-out, two-run single and an intentional walk. OPS penalizes hitters for sacrifice flies. You want your 3 and 4 hitters to drive in runs. You want them to hit. You want them to hit for high averages, especially with runners in scoring position. Their on-base percentages are only important in that they are founded in hitting, not being pitched around.

Fielder was clearly a better hitter in 2012 than he was in the last several seasons with the Brewers, and Cabrera, a hitter who hits .420, slugs .720 with two outs and runners in scoring position, has had a season he may not be able to repeat, even if he has a higher OPS.

Even if you don't believe in the concept of clutch hitting, that the averages with runners in scoring position and with two outs and runners in scoring position will resgress to the mean, you aren't expecting Cabrera to hit so exceedingly well in the clutch next year. Cabrera was clutch hitting out of his mind last year.

kittle42
11-16-2012, 02:06 PM
To me the opposite is true for our fan base. Especially here at WSI where the grass is always greener on the other side mentality reigns supreme. If you ever listened to Chris Rongey's show after a loss, or a shaky win, you'd know that ALL of our players suck.

Correction - all of our players suck - UNTIL it's time to get rid of them, THEN the fans think they're all great.

Oblong
11-16-2012, 08:43 PM
As Oblong said, it is that close. I had forgotten he's been there 5 years, not 3, however. But the last 3 years:
2010: .328/.420/.642; 84 XBH
2011: .344/.448/.586; 78 XBH
2012: .330/.393/.606; 84 XBH



Does Dirks get moved to RF, then?

Based on the press conference today it sounds like Hunter will be the RF and so I assume Dirks in LF.

Hunter said he started scouting out teams this summer in case the Angels didn't bring him back and settled on the Tigers. He actually called them up and set up the Tuesday meeting himself. Just so happens they were having their organizational meetings this week so all the people were there already.

It's amazing that in 10 years the Tigers went from begging Craig Paquette to sign to having Torii Hunter chase them down.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2012, 09:16 PM
It's amazing that in 10 years the Tigers went from begging Craig Paquette to sign to having Torii Hunter chase them down.http://www.mobileapptesting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Dollar-Sign.jpg
The answer to everything.

Lip

SephClone89
11-16-2012, 09:25 PM
Cabrera's walk numbers really plummeted this year. Obviously Fielder has something to do with it, but still.

TDog
11-17-2012, 12:24 AM
Cabrera's walk numbers really plummeted this year. Obviously Fielder has something to do with it, but still.

The Tigers signed Fielder to hit behind Cabrera so that pitchers wouldn't walk him as often. And Cabrera responded by leading the league in total bases.

Tragg
11-17-2012, 10:18 AM
The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Again, not saying the Tigers don't have their share of problems, but to say they're even with the Sox is crazy. We currently have holes at 2B, 3B, and C. We have major questions at 1B, our everyday DH, and arguably SS and CF, as well.
Well, when you have 2 superstars in the infield who play iffy D then, yea, infield D is overrated.